From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

I was looking at the emergency advice for extreme heat conditions. One
of the recommendations was a fully charged power pack in case of power
failure. I wondered if a UPS would be just as good, or could an
inverter followed by a transformer and rectifier cause difficulties?
Would this usage deplete the UPS by much?
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Scott wrote:

I was looking at the emergency advice for extreme heat conditions. One
of the recommendations was a fully charged power pack in case of power failure. I wondered if a UPS would be just as good, or could an
inverter followed by a transformer and rectifier cause difficulties?
Would this usage deplete the UPS by much?

A UPS solely for a phone charger sounds a bit much,, or would the UPS be powering other equipment too?

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Scott wrote:

I was looking at the emergency advice for extreme heat conditions. One
of the recommendations was a fully charged power pack in case of power
failure. I wondered if a UPS would be just as good, or could an
inverter followed by a transformer and rectifier cause difficulties?
Would this usage deplete the UPS by much?

A UPS solely for a phone charger sounds a bit much,, or would the UPS be powering other equipment too?

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very
good emergency power source.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a
phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

Most hybrids will charge the 12V from the hybrid battery without starting
the engine, so you have 1kWh or more before it does rhat.

They can also run the aircon off the hybrid battery, only running the engine when it gets low. That's why Prius camping is a thing, because you can be air conditioned all night with only running the engine every 20 mins or so.

wrt the UPS idea, it depends how efficient the power conversion is. eg if you're going 12Vdc - 240Vac - 5Vdc then you have two sets of losses, while a USB port on the side would only have one.

Some inverters have quite high base loading, meaning they deplete the
battery even when there's no loads plugged in. That's more likely to be a problem on high power units designed to run hungry PCs or servers for
minutes for a clean shutdown, rather than small loads for hours.

Theo
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Theo wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery,
because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a
phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

Most hybrids will charge the 12V from the hybrid battery without starting
the engine, so you have 1kWh or more before it does rhat.

Don't think I'd trust mine to do that (being a PHEV it has 13ish kWh)
the Toyota forums are full of horror stories, my neighbour's non plug-in
Prius killed a battery due to lack of use during lockdown, he traded-in
for a plug-in version shortly after covid.

The other day, it was moaning at me to shut off the ignition, while I
was simply trying to tidily route a USB extension to a memory stick
under the dash for music playback.

They can also run the aircon off the hybrid battery

That bit's OK, nothing drastic happens when the hybrid batter reaches 0%
(even though it keeps a few percent hidden up its sleeve)

only running the engine
when it gets low. That's why Prius camping is a thing, because you can be air conditioned all night with only running the engine every 20 mins or so.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:03:28 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Scott wrote:

I was looking at the emergency advice for extreme heat conditions. One
of the recommendations was a fully charged power pack in case of power
failure. I wondered if a UPS would be just as good, or could an
inverter followed by a transformer and rectifier cause difficulties?
Would this usage deplete the UPS by much?

A UPS solely for a phone charger sounds a bit much,, or would the UPS be >powering other equipment too?

Yes, it's connected to my PC so it was just a question of whether it
is fit for purpose for charging a phone (in an emergency).
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very
good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

Would this be a bigger issue for a pure ev? I am looking at purchase
of same, so this is good knowledge. I intuitively assumed the power
contained in a vehicle would charge a phone for about 10 years :-)
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Scott wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery,

Would this be a bigger issue for a pure ev? I am looking at purchase
of same, so this is good knowledge. I intuitively assumed the power
contained in a vehicle would charge a phone for about 10 years :-)

I think all EVs use a separate 12V battery for the "auxilliary" stuff
which would include cigar lighter sockets. Mine has a 13A socket in the
boot which I've used to recharge 18V tool batteries while away from home.

I've heard that Teslas also have smaller 12V batteries, but they were
better at keeping them charged via a DC->DC converter, but google seems
to show they can have similar problems.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very
good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

As I found out on Monday evening. Spent about 45mins waiting outside
the GP's surgery while the better half was in inside. Sat there, phone
hooked up, radio on. Never had a problem previously but when I
attempted to start the car after the appointment - nothing. I had to
call the AA. Listened to me trying to start the car - said that's the
battery. Sitting around too long. Checked the battery, OK. Got me
started and said drive around for a while to charge it back up. Nice
evening, so we did. Perfectly Ok Tuesday morning. Not a mistake I'll
make again. Fingers crossed <g>
---
Pete.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Pete W <pete@never.here> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very >>> good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery,
because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a
few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a
phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

As I found out on Monday evening. Spent about 45mins waiting outside
the GP's surgery while the better half was in inside. Sat there, phone
hooked up, radio on. Never had a problem previously but when I
attempted to start the car after the appointment - nothing. I had to
call the AA. Listened to me trying to start the car - said that's the battery. Sitting around too long. Checked the battery, OK. Got me
started and said drive around for a while to charge it back up. Nice
evening, so we did. Perfectly Ok Tuesday morning. Not a mistake I'll
make again. Fingers crossed <g>
---
Pete.

What is your carrCOs make and model?

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Wed, 24 Jun 2026 08:38:49 +0100, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very >>> good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >>because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a >>few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >>phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so >>run the engine in that case ...

Would this be a bigger issue for a pure ev? I am looking at purchase
of same, so this is good knowledge. I intuitively assumed the power
contained in a vehicle would charge a phone for about 10 years :-)

My EV (and I'm sure others) has a standard 13A socket in the back plus
an adaptor giving another fom the charging port. I have 80kWh of
emergency power if necessary.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Theo wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >> because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a >> few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >> phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so
run the engine in that case ...

Most hybrids will charge the 12V from the hybrid battery without starting the engine, so you have 1kWh or more before it does rhat.

Don't think I'd trust mine to do that (being a PHEV it has 13ish kWh)
the Toyota forums are full of horror stories, my neighbour's non plug-in Prius killed a battery due to lack of use during lockdown, he traded-in
for a plug-in version shortly after covid.

You have to be in Ready mode, ie with the car ready to drive. Otherwise the main contactors are not open and the HV system is isolated. If you're only
in auxiliary mode you only have the 12V. But because it's a hybrid, in
Ready mode you always have the engine available and it will start it if it senses power getting low.

The OEM spec Prius AGM batteries weren't great - I used to get through them every 2 years. I replaced with a UPS AGM battery and 4 years on it's been fine.

The other day, it was moaning at me to shut off the ignition, while I
was simply trying to tidily route a USB extension to a memory stick
under the dash for music playback.

Because there is no engine running, I suspect some people forget to turn off the car before they get out. I've done it and it's beeped to remind me it's still on (something you may forget if you don't have a physical key to
remove). Tesla just turns the car on any time your are inside (via your
phone or a keycard) and off when you leave, something I'm not a fan of.

They can also run the aircon off the hybrid battery

That bit's OK, nothing drastic happens when the hybrid batter reaches 0% (even though it keeps a few percent hidden up its sleeve)

On the non-PHEVs they aim to keep the NiMH hybrid battery between 40% and 70% (a bit of under/overshoot is ok) so the engine will kick in before it's
fully empty. Empty on the screen still has about 40% left in the battery (although the battery is a lot smaller in real terms).

Theo
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Theo wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Most hybrids will charge the 12V from the hybrid battery without starting >>> the engine

Don't think I'd trust mine to do that

You have to be in Ready mode

OK makes sense, which I wasn't

If you're only
in auxiliary mode you only have the 12V. But because it's a hybrid, in
Ready mode you always have the engine available and it will start it if it senses power getting low.

At least it had the decency to beep and warn the 12V battery was getting
low (the hybrid battery was actually on "zero" miles.

The OEM spec Prius AGM batteries weren't great - I used to get through them every 2 years. I replaced with a UPS AGM battery and 4 years on it's been fine.

Nowhere near needing one yet (I hope) but I had a look to see if there's anything with a few more Ah available, I might want to fit a dashcam.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Wed, 24 Jun 2026 08:34:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

Pete W <pete@never.here> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very >>>> good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >>> because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a >>> few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >>> phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so >>> run the engine in that case ...

As I found out on Monday evening. Spent about 45mins waiting outside
the GP's surgery while the better half was in inside. Sat there, phone
hooked up, radio on. Never had a problem previously but when I
attempted to start the car after the appointment - nothing. I had to
call the AA. Listened to me trying to start the car - said that's the
battery. Sitting around too long. Checked the battery, OK. Got me
started and said drive around for a while to charge it back up. Nice
evening, so we did. Perfectly Ok Tuesday morning. Not a mistake I'll
make again. Fingers crossed <g>
---
Pete.

What is your carAs make and model?

Nissan Qashqai 1.3 DiG-T Acenta Premium
---
Pete.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Pete W <pete@never.here> wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2026 08:34:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

Pete W <pete@never.here> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 21:22:02 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Tweed wrote:

Does the OP have a car? With the appropriate charger the car makes a very
good emergency power source.

Some cars (particularly hybrids) have a smaller than normal 12V battery, >>> because they use the high voltage battery for engine starting, so just a >>> few minutes sitting with the ignition on, and say the radio playing or a >>> phone charging can flatten the battery in a surprisingly short time, so >>> run the engine in that case ...

As I found out on Monday evening. Spent about 45mins waiting outside
the GP's surgery while the better half was in inside. Sat there, phone
hooked up, radio on. Never had a problem previously but when I
attempted to start the car after the appointment - nothing. I had to
call the AA. Listened to me trying to start the car - said that's the
battery. Sitting around too long. Checked the battery, OK. Got me
started and said drive around for a while to charge it back up. Nice
evening, so we did. Perfectly Ok Tuesday morning. Not a mistake I'll
make again. Fingers crossed <g>
---
Pete.

What is your car?s make and model?

Nissan Qashqai 1.3 DiG-T Acenta Premium

I think that's a 'mild' hybrid, ie which is just marketing for an energy recovery system from the starter motor. When you said 'listened to me
trying to start the car', did it make the usual car-with-flat-battery sounds (feeble whine of starter motor turning over) or something else?

I think Nissan has two systems, the 'mild hybrid' and the 'E-power', the
latter being a series hybrid (engine charges battery which powers the motor, with no mechanical connection between engine and wheels). I expect those
have much bigger traction batteries.

Traditional petrol/diesel cars use the same battery for starting the car as
for running the auxiliaries, so too much radio and you can't start.

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage
contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start. This is
what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at a low
state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge them very fast so they
get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is designed to
be run full to empty so handles that situation better.

Theo
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Theo wrote:

Pete W wrote:

Nissan Qashqai 1.3 DiG-T Acenta Premium

I think that's a 'mild' hybrid, ie which is just marketing for an energy recovery system from the starter motor.

And such mild hybrids tend to have larger, not smaller, 12V batteries as
they will generally have stop/start too.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start. This
is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at a
low state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge them very fast
so they get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a trnsmission
based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very big and it's hard
to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't start. But
even a small jump start pack worked fine.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage
contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start. This
is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at a
low state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge them very fast
so they get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is
designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a trnsmission
based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very big and it's hard
to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't start. But >even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same effect or
does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 18:04:08 +0100, Scott wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage
contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start. This
is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at
a low state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge them very
fast so they get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I
fitted is designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation
better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a trnsmission
based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very big and it's
hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't start. But >>even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same effect or
does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

The car is a full hybrid. The traction battery never gets charged except
by the engine. I can't easily charge the small battery in situ as the car
is parked on the road (why I don't have an EV).
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage
contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start. This
is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at a >> low state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge them very fast
so they get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is
designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a trnsmission >based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very big and it's hard >to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't start. But >even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same effect or
does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't remember which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on uk.d-i-y

Theo
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

In message <87F*gC2JA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't start.
This is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't like being left at a low state of charge, and the early Prius doesn't charge
them very fast so they get depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a trnsmission based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very big and it's
hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't start.
But even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same effect or
does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't remember which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on uk.d-i-y

Ye gods. With all these problems, I'm so glad I got a proper electric
car.

David
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 22:37:50 +0100, David Higton wrote:

In message <87F*gC2JA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx>
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high
voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they won't
start. This is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as they don't
like being left at a low state of charge, and the early Prius
doesn't charge them very fast so they get depleted without you
noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is designed to be run full to
empty so handles that situation better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a
trnsmission based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't very
big and it's hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't
start. But even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same effect
or does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't remember
which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on uk.d-i-y

Ye gods. With all these problems, I'm so glad I got a proper electric
car.

Mine charges the 12v via an inverter from the traction battery. But if you don't use the car much (and I haven't, recently) then it doesn't get a
good charge. It's not let me down yet, though.

My wife's was a bit of a surprise over 2 and a half weeks, though.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 22:37:50 +0100
David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

In message <87F*gC2JA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx>
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high
voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they
won't start. This is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as
they don't like being left at a low state of charge, and the
early Prius doesn't charge them very fast so they get
depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is
designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation
better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a
trnsmission based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't
very big and it's hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't
start. But even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same
effect or does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't
remember which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on
uk.d-i-y

Ye gods. With all these problems, I'm so glad I got a proper electric
car.

David

I'm glad I don't have an electric car.
So much simpler...
--
Davey.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On 25/06/2026 23:45, Davey wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 22:37:50 +0100
David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

In message <87F*gC2JA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx>
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high
voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they
won't start. This is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as
they don't like being left at a low state of charge, and the
early Prius doesn't charge them very fast so they get
depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is
designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation
better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a
trnsmission based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't
very big and it's hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't
start. But even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same
effect or does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't
remember which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on
uk.d-i-y

Ye gods. With all these problems, I'm so glad I got a proper electric
car.

David

I'm glad I don't have an electric car.
So much simpler...

Depends on your definition of simpler. How many moving parts are there
in the drive train of a conventional car compared to an EV?

Don't tell me the electronics is more complex, look at all the sensors
on a conventional car to enable it to function to modern emissions
standards.

In fact its pretty amazing they work at all...
.. actually if its a classic with Lucas fuel injectors it is amazing
when they work....

Dave



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From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On Fri, 26 Jun 2026 08:43:45 +0100
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 25/06/2026 23:45, Davey wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 22:37:50 +0100
David Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

In message <87F*gC2JA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

On 25 Jun 2026 16:49:50 GMT, Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx>
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Jun 2026 14:48:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Toyota's hybrids only use the 12V battery to open the high
voltage contactors, so the 12V can be very flat before they
won't start. This is what kills Prius OEM 12V batteries as
they don't like being left at a low state of charge, and the
early Prius doesn't charge them very fast so they get
depleted without you noticing. The UPS battery I fitted is
designed to be run full to empty so handles that situation
better.

My wife has one of these, and I have a Ford, which uses a
trnsmission based on the Toyota. The 12v battery on mine isn't
very big and it's hard to keep it properly charged.

My wife left her car for two and a half weeks and it wouldn't
start. But even a small jump start pack worked fine.

Would connecting it to a (home) charging point have the same
effect or does the 12 volt battery have to be charged separately.

Some but not all EVs charge the 12V when plugged in. I don't
remember which don't - I'm sure there was a recent thread on
uk.d-i-y

Ye gods. With all these problems, I'm so glad I got a proper
electric car.

David

I'm glad I don't have an electric car.
So much simpler...

Depends on your definition of simpler. How many moving parts are
there in the drive train of a conventional car compared to an EV?

Reading the previous explanations, just about anything is simpler!

Don't tell me the electronics is more complex, look at all the
sensors on a conventional car to enable it to function to modern
emissions standards.

In fact its pretty amazing they work at all...
.. actually if its a classic with Lucas fuel injectors it is amazing
when they work....

Dave

Fuel injectors? New-fangled objects of great complexity. I prefer
SUs myself.
--
Davey.

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From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On 26/06/2026 08:43, David Wade wrote:

Depends on your definition of simpler. How many moving parts are there
in the drive train of a conventional car compared to an EV?

Don't tell me the electronics is more complex, look at all the sensors
on a conventional car to enable it to function to modern emissions standards.

There was an item on one of the consumer programmes a few weeks ago
about someone who has a battery Volvo (probably a new one) which has
been off the road since last November(?) because the dealer has no one
who can fix it.

They got a spare part (thought to be battery) from abroad quite quickly
but there is no one able to change it.

It said there is a big shortage of people qualified to work on battery cars.

I think it is probably because most people who train to work on cars are petrolheads, there are probably few interested in battery cars.



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From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

On 26/06/2026 08:53, Davey wrote:

Fuel injectors? New-fangled objects of great complexity. I prefer
SUs myself.

Just been reading a book about BRIXMIS. They used mainly highly
modified Four Wheel Drive Opel Senators. I think one modification was
going back to carburettors because more reliable and can be fixed in the field.



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From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile

Andy Burns wrote:

The OEM spec Prius AGM batteries weren't great - I used to get through them >> every 2 years. I replaced with a UPS AGM battery and 4 years on it's been >> fine.

Nowhere near needing one yet (I hope) but I had a look to see if there's anything with a few more Ah available, I might want to fit a dashcam.

As Andy is aware, our power goes out roughly once or twice a month, for
about a day at a time, so we're pretty handy at having backup spare power.

The simplest solution, really, for charging a phone, besides an already charged battery pack of course, is a clip-on DC-to-DC converter block.

What I used to do (before I had more sophisticated solutions) was save an
old 12VDC car battery and then clip onto the terminals the converter.
(And, of course, you must periodically charge the spare battery too.)

It's amazing how well an old car battery that no longer reliably starts a vehicle can easily charge a set of mobile devices a couple of times each.

We have much more sophisticated solutions now, but that's pretty simple.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.telecom.mobile


David Wade wrote:

Depends on your definition of simpler. How many moving parts are there
in the drive train of a conventional car compared to an EV?

While it can take years for an EV to pollute less GHG than an ICE vehicle,

1. A typical EV drivetrain has about 30 moving parts
a. One electric motor (rotor + bearings)
b. Single-speed reduction gear
c. Differential
d. A few pumps/valves for cooling
etc.

2. A typical ICE drivetrain has about 200 moving parts
a. All ICE components
b. Plus EV components (motor, inverter, battery cooling)
c. Power-split device or dual-clutch hybrid transmission
etc.

3. A typical Hybrid drivetrain has about 300 moving parts
a. Pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft
b. Camshafts, valves, timing chain/belt
c. Oil pump, water pump, fuel pump
d. Multi-gear transmission with clutches, synchronizers, shafts
e. Exhaust system components
etc.

But always keep in mind that green house gas pollution (GHG) is far greater with new EVs than with ICE vehicles due to the immense materials pollution.
a. EVs start with a GHG disadvantage
b. Mostly because battery production is energy-intensive
c. Plus a typical EV uses ~2.5x more copper than an ICE vehicle
i. EV: 150-200 lbs
ii. Hybrid: 90-120 lbs
iii. ICE: 40-50 lbs .
So EV manufacturing emits 30-70% more CO2 than ICE manufacturing.
Most is from batteries & wires (mining + refining + cell production).

Don't even get me started on the immensity of EV recycling pollution.
The copper isn't the problem. The batteries are recycled at about 1%.

The fact is well known among educated people but the hoi polloi aren't generally aware EV's start out dirty but, they surpass ICE pollution in
a. USA about 1 year
b. UK/Europe about 2 years
c. China about 3 to 4 years

We could delve into details, as everything is different between EV/ICE.
a. For example, copper mining is a real issue, but it is front loaded
b. While oil extraction is a permanent issue that depends on miles driven
c. And battery pollution is a real thing that will get worse over time
--
When you understand technology, you realize that most people do not.
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