• Ongoing EnshitAIfication

    From Richmond@dnomhcir@gmx.com to uk.telecom on Fri Jan 30 11:53:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI digital assistant that
    offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to help answer customer
    queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found it
    to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep customers
    away from the useless support staff.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/telecoms-infrastructure/Exploring-what-impact-the-adoption-of-artificial-intelligence-could-have-on-the-experience-of-telecoms-customers

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/internet-based-services/technology/understanding-how-people-and-businesses-can-benefit-from-ai-in-telecoms-markets.pdf
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Marco Moock@mm@dorfdsl.de to uk.telecom on Fri Jan 30 15:36:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 30.01.2026 11:53 Uhr Richmond wrote:

    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI
    digital assistant that offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to
    help answer customer queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found
    it to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep
    customers away from the useless support staff.

    That system exists in Germany too. For me, that is a reason to choose
    another ISP.
    --
    kind regards
    Marco

    Send spam to 1769770383muell@stinkedores.dorfdsl.de

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.telecom on Sat Jan 31 23:45:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Fri, 30 Jan 2026 11:53:03 +0000
    Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:

    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI
    digital assistant that offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to
    help answer customer queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found
    it to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep
    customers away from the useless support staff.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/telecoms-infrastructure/Exploring-what-impact-the-adoption-of-artificial-intelligence-could-have-on-the-experience-of-telecoms-customers

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/internet-based-services/technology/understanding-how-people-and-businesses-can-benefit-from-ai-in-telecoms-markets.pdf

    Unfortunately, they are everywhere. They say they will connect you to a
    human if they can't answer your question, but they seem to forget how
    to do that.
    I recently encountered one of these, and I posed my question as
    clearly as I could. It asked me to re-phrase my question, so I repeated
    it, I could not rephrase it any better, but it still could not
    understand, so it said it would connect me to an agent. Who was not
    available.

    Ho hum.
    --
    Davey.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Layman@Jeff@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 1 09:01:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 31/01/2026 23:45, Davey wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Jan 2026 11:53:03 +0000
    Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:

    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI
    digital assistant that offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to
    help answer customer queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found
    it to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep
    customers away from the useless support staff.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/telecoms-infrastructure/Exploring-what-impact-the-adoption-of-artificial-intelligence-could-have-on-the-experience-of-telecoms-customers

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/internet-based-services/technology/understanding-how-people-and-businesses-can-benefit-from-ai-in-telecoms-markets.pdf

    Unfortunately, they are everywhere. They say they will connect you to a
    human if they can't answer your question, but they seem to forget how
    to do that.
    I recently encountered one of these, and I posed my question as
    clearly as I could. It asked me to re-phrase my question, so I repeated
    it, I could not rephrase it any better, but it still could not
    understand, so it said it would connect me to an agent. Who was not available.

    Ho hum.

    Well, I hope that Zen keeps its human operatives to deal with issues. I
    can't say that I've ever had a problem dealing with Zen support.
    --
    Jeff
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter@occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 1 09:20:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom


    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote

    Unfortunately, they are everywhere. They say they will connect you to a
    human if they can't answer your question, but they seem to forget how
    to do that.
    I recently encountered one of these, and I posed my question as
    clearly as I could. It asked me to re-phrase my question, so I repeated
    it, I could not rephrase it any better, but it still could not
    understand, so it said it would connect me to an agent. Who was not >available.

    On the plus side, I was with VODA on ADSL for years and there were
    zero problems, so no need to contact them.

    Now they use a stupid Indian monkey script call centre which cannot
    solve anything. I dropped when when FTTP came because they were unable
    to retain my landline #. I went to Voipfone.

    When I get one of these bots, I type "human please" and just keep
    repeating that over and over.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Julian Macassey@julian@n6are.com to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 1 09:25:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sun, 1 Feb 2026 09:01:58 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Well, I hope that Zen keeps its human operatives to deal with issues. I can't say that I've ever had a problem dealing with Zen support.


    Dealing with Zen is like dealing with telecom in the
    1980s. Real, knowlegeable humans.

    I love Zen.
    --
    The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
    fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 1 10:59:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sun, 1 Feb 2026 09:25:21 -0000 (UTC)
    Julian Macassey <julian@n6are.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Feb 2026 09:01:58 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    Well, I hope that Zen keeps its human operatives to deal with
    issues. I can't say that I've ever had a problem dealing with Zen
    support.

    Dealing with Zen is like dealing with telecom in the
    1980s. Real, knowlegeable humans.

    I love Zen.


    Same here. Actual people, who care about you. And they speak
    Lancashire rather than Robot or Punjabi or Tagalog.
    --
    Davey.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 1 15:21:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/2/1 10:59:46, Davey wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Feb 2026 09:25:21 -0000 (UTC)
    Julian Macassey <julian@n6are.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Feb 2026 09:01:58 +0000, Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    Well, I hope that Zen keeps its human operatives to deal with
    issues. I can't say that I've ever had a problem dealing with Zen
    support.

    Dealing with Zen is like dealing with telecom in the
    1980s. Real, knowlegeable humans.

    I love Zen.


    Same here. Actual people, who care about you. And they speak
    Lancashire rather than Robot or Punjabi or Tagalog.

    If (I nearly typed When, which is significant!) I ever leave PlusNet, it
    may well be for Zen: last time I looked they were significantly more
    expensive, but as I get older I'm more inclined to pay extra for proper service.

    Mind you, I _have_ had excellent and knowledgeable service from someone obviously in "India" (I'm ashamed to say I couldn't distinguish areas),
    when sorting out a problem for a friend who was I think on TalkTalk: he
    seemed very knowledgeable technically, and willing to recognise me as
    not an idiot in that area too. That _was_ some years ago - but I just
    wanted to say not _all_ people with foreign accents are hopeless.
    (Which, I'm sure, you didn't mean to imply either.)

    (I _have_ had difficulty with such a person - I actually felt very sorry
    for her, obviously struggling with the language, and also it was a very
    poor connection.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "Even the weakest disputant is made so conceited by what he calls
    religion, as to think himself wiser than the wisest who think
    differently from him." [Walter Savage Landor, "Melancthon and Calvin"]
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Blue@usenet@randomstuffimade.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 11:34:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 30/01/2026 11:53 am, Richmond wrote:
    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI digital assistant that
    offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to help answer customer
    queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found it
    to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep customers
    away from the useless support staff.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/telecoms-infrastructure/Exploring-what-impact-the-adoption-of-artificial-intelligence-could-have-on-the-experience-of-telecoms-customers

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/internet-based-services/technology/understanding-how-people-and-businesses-can-benefit-from-ai-in-telecoms-markets.pdf

    Oh god, this is awful. This is beyond awful, but unfortunately it's a
    symptom of the fact that AI costs a lot less money than hiring real
    theyre truely going to replace us all one day!
    --
    Blue
    why am i here?
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 14:30:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Fri, 30 Jan 2026 11:53:03 +0000
    Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:

    "Vodafone, in partnership with Microsoft, has developed TOBi, an AI
    digital assistant that offers 24/7 customer support and uses AI to
    help answer customer queries".

    This document describes TOBi as support. This is remarkable. I found
    it to be a useless simpleton script whose main purpose is to keep
    customers away from the useless support staff.

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-and-broadband/telecoms-infrastructure/Exploring-what-impact-the-adoption-of-artificial-intelligence-could-have-on-the-experience-of-telecoms-customers

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/internet-based-services/technology/understanding-how-people-and-businesses-can-benefit-from-ai-in-telecoms-markets.pdf

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's senior engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.
    --
    Davey.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 17:48:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's senior engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.

    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used properly! However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across
    an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an electricity substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I worked briefly for
    a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres.
    Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "There is no such thing as bad weather - only the wrong clothes."
    - Billy Connolly, in his World Tour of England, Ireland and Wales,
    4 March 2002 (BBC1).
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 17:52:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 02/02/2026 17:48, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's senior
    engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.

    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used properly! However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across
    an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an electricity substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I worked briefly for
    a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres.
    Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.


    To be fair a lot of my design work is in millimetres. rarely centimetres
    and never decimetres.

    Which is sad. A decimetre is about a hand in equestrian units, and a convenient size for wood too
    --
    Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 18:16:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/2/2 17:52:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 02/02/2026 17:48, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's senior>>> engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.

    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used properly!
    However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of
    length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across>> an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an electricity
    substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I worked briefly for
    a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres.
    Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.


    To be fair a lot of my design work is in millimetres. rarely centimetres
    and never decimetres.
    Yes, fair enough; the SI system only uses powers of 10^3. But using
    millimetres instead of metres for a switchyard was bizarre.

    Which is sad. A decimetre is about a hand in equestrian units, and a convenient size for wood too

    And the "etto", as I heard it in Italy, is near enough a quarter (for,
    e. g., sweets).
    I quite like using the more obscure ones - deci, deka, and myria!
    The drinks industry (at least the alcoholic part) still uses cl, for
    some reason I've never understood. And I think the (road) tanker trade
    still uses hectolitres.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 19:21:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's senior engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.

    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used properly! However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across
    an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an electricity substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I worked briefly for
    a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres.
    Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.

    Just after WWI the Villiers company received the design of a German
    two-stroke engine as part of war reparations. They went on
    manufacturing it through WWII and right into the 1960s, with imperial
    threads in holes on metric spacing.
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 21:43:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    n Mon, 2 Feb 2026 17:48:10 +0000
    "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's
    senior engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.
    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used
    properly! However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across
    an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an
    electricity substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I
    worked briefly for a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres. Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.


    Indeed. My schooling was entirely in Imperial units, with a nod to
    metric, then at University (never 'uni'!), I met those thousands of millimetres. I could easily comprehend what 18 feet looked like, but
    the idea of imaging 5345 mm was not something that made any sense to me
    at all.
    I still like my Thermodynamics lecturer's use of FFF, for Furlong,
    Ferkin, Fortnight as a measurement system, rather than CGS or MKS. He
    used it to see if any of us were still awake.
    --
    Davey.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 2 23:35:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/2/2 19:21:30, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    []
    Just after WWI the Villiers company received the design of a German two-stroke engine as part of war reparations. They went on
    manufacturing it through WWII and right into the 1960s, with imperial
    threads in holes on metric spacing.


    For a long time (maybe still?), the civil aviation industry has measured horizontal distances in (mostly) km, and vertical ones in feet.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 3 09:02:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On 2026/2/2 19:21:30, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

    []

    Just after WWI the Villiers company received the design of a German two-stroke engine as part of war reparations. They went on
    manufacturing it through WWII and right into the 1960s, with imperial threads in holes on metric spacing.


    For a long time (maybe still?), the civil aviation industry has measured horizontal distances in (mostly) km, and vertical ones in feet.

    At least that clearly defines whether you are heading towards the runway
    at 300 kilometres per hour horizontally or16,500 feet per minute
    vertically.
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 3 09:25:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

    n Mon, 2 Feb 2026 17:48:10 +0000
    "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On 2026/2/2 14:30:24, Davey wrote:

    []

    Your title sounds like a good companion to my first employer's
    senior engineer's description of the change in measurements as: metrifucktion.
    Of course, the metric system is a lot easier to use - IF used
    properly! However, I'm convinced this conversation happened:

    British Industry: "OK, we'll go metric. What's the metric unit of length/distance?"
    "The millimetre."
    BI: "OK, we'll use that."

    And they did. For everything. I couldn't believe it when I came across
    an engineering drawing of a switchyard (the area outside an
    electricity substation, where the larger switchgear is placed [I
    worked briefly for a switchgear company]), with all the dimensions in millimetres. Thousands of them.

    They'd clearly not grasped the concept of prefixes.


    Indeed. My schooling was entirely in Imperial units, with a nod to
    metric, then at University (never 'uni'!), I met those thousands of millimetres. I could easily comprehend what 18 feet looked like, but
    the idea of imaging 5345 mm was not something that made any sense to me
    at all.
    I still like my Thermodynamics lecturer's use of FFF, for Furlong,
    Ferkin, Fortnight as a measurement system, rather than CGS or MKS. He
    used it to see if any of us were still awake.

    A relative, who is a specialist joiner, offered to makes some
    loudspeaker cabinets to my design. He is a lot younger than me and
    could only think in millimetres, so he fed all my imperial dimensions
    through a pocket calculator.

    To test whether he had any 'feel' for imperial units I gave him
    measurements like 3" one way and 2+1/2 inches the other way, he
    converted them both to metric and then subtracted them. A non-critical dimension which I had marked as approx. 7/13 inch, didn't even register
    as odd with him - he just faithfully converted it.
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 3 13:03:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 02/02/2026 23:35, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    For a long time (maybe still?), the civil aviation industry has measured horizontal distances in (mostly) km, and vertical ones in feet.

    And speed in nautical knots...

    And until recently, fuel in lubs.

    In fact the changeover to kg resulted in at least one accident, where
    they asked for kg and got lbs instead....
    --
    WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 3 14:42:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Tue, 3 Feb 2026 13:03:06 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 02/02/2026 23:35, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    For a long time (maybe still?), the civil aviation industry has
    measured horizontal distances in (mostly) km, and vertical ones in
    feet.
    And speed in nautical knots...

    And until recently, fuel in lubs.

    In fact the changeover to kg resulted in at least one accident, where
    they asked for kg and got lbs instead....


    Didn't something like that result in the crashing of a Mars probe?
    --
    Davey,

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Julian Macassey@julian@n6are.com to uk.telecom on Fri Feb 6 14:07:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Mon, 2 Feb 2026 19:21:30 +0000, Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.> wrote:


    Just after WWI the Villiers company received the design of a German two-stroke engine as part of war reparations. They went on
    manufacturing it through WWII and right into the 1960s, with imperial
    threads in holes on metric spacing.

    In 1935 the Belgian gun manufacturer FN. came out with a
    semi-automatic pistol (Browning Hi Power) using the 9mm parabellum
    cartridge, It was well received world wide,

    When Adolf's unpleasantness started the design for the
    pistol ended up in Canada and was produced there for the Allies
    an Chinese during the war as well as in Belgium fpr the Nazis.

    As we all know, "Metric is hard!" so the the Canadian guns
    were built using Imperial mmeasurements. They are therefor not
    comptible part wise aith 9mm Brownings built in other countries.
    From a distannce the pistols are indistuishable.

    This is not the only time idiots have decidrd "Metric is
    hard!", Hughes Helicopter decided to fit some of their choppers
    with Swiss Oerlikon guns made under licence in Culver City,
    California, They translated all those funny Euro mesurements to
    real American measurements. Much hilarity followed.
    --
    The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
    fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Fri Feb 6 14:17:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/02/2026 14:07, Julian Macassey wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Feb 2026 19:21:30 +0000, Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.> wrote:


    Just after WWI the Villiers company received the design of a German
    two-stroke engine as part of war reparations. They went on
    manufacturing it through WWII and right into the 1960s, with imperial
    threads in holes on metric spacing.

    In 1935 the Belgian gun manufacturer FN. came out with a
    semi-automatic pistol (Browning Hi Power) using the 9mm parabellum
    cartridge, It was well received world wide,

    When Adolf's unpleasantness started the design for the
    pistol ended up in Canada and was produced there for the Allies
    an Chinese during the war as well as in Belgium fpr the Nazis.

    As we all know, "Metric is hard!" so the the Canadian guns
    were built using Imperial mmeasurements. They are therefor not
    comptible part wise aith 9mm Brownings built in other countries.
    From a distannce the pistols are indistuishable.

    This is not the only time idiots have decidrd "Metric is
    hard!", Hughes Helicopter decided to fit some of their choppers
    with Swiss Oerlikon guns made under licence in Culver City,
    California, They translated all those funny Euro mesurements to
    real American measurements. Much hilarity followed.


    Plenty of imperial measurements still exist in the UK, but quoted in mm.
    1/8" drill=> 3.2mnm drill
    8' x 4' sheet => 2440 mm x 1220 mm
    4"x4" unfinished timber =>100 x 100 mm
    1 (imperial) gallon => 5 litres

    And so on.

    For me it is especially irritating when e.g. designing circuit boards
    where components and connectors have 0.1" pitch, but the mounting holes
    are in mm or some newer parts have millimetric leg spacing.

    But you get used to finding ways to do all this efficiently
    --
    rCLIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
    authorities are wrong.rCY

    rCo Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 8 12:23:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/02/2026 14:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    Plenty of imperial measurements still exist in the UK, but quoted in mm.


    The continentals seem to manage quite happily using some old traditional non-metric units when the metric-purists here would want them all converted.

    I am get annoyed when things built in the past in Imperial units get
    recorded in Metric. Surely less chance of errors with '10 ft x 20 ft'
    than '3.048 m x 0.6096 m'?




    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ottavio Caruso@ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com to uk.telecom on Sun Feb 8 14:25:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Am 08.02.26 um 12:23 schrieb JMB99:
    Surely less chance of errors with '10 ft x 20 ft' than '3.048 m x 0.6096
    m'?

    Surely for the uneducated Brexitards who can't compute?
    --
    Ottavio Caruso
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Mon Feb 9 08:58:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 08/02/2026 14:25, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Am 08.02.26 um 12:23 schrieb JMB99:
    Surely less chance of errors with '10 ft x 20 ft' than '3.048 m x
    0.6096 m'?

    Surely for the uneducated Brexitards who can't compute?

    Wrong way round. It is the Europhiles who have trouble with
    comprehension, preferring to substitute Blind Belief for critical
    examination.
    --
    A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
    its shoes.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 00:31:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/2/9 8:58:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/02/2026 14:25, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Am 08.02.26 um 12:23 schrieb JMB99:
    Surely less chance of errors with '10 ft x 20 ft' than '3.048 m x
    0.6096 m'?

    Surely for the uneducated Brexitards who can't compute?

    Wrong way round. It is the Europhiles who have trouble with
    comprehension, preferring to substitute Blind Belief for critical examination.


    Anyone on either side who cannot handle the existence of the other
    system is short-sighted (or worse).

    FWIW, British industry (and more of the public than are willing to
    admit) had accepted the existence of the metric system decades before
    Brexit was thought of (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    From a Brexiteer, who happily uses both systems. (I was in favour of
    leaving - though it was close - on grounds that had nothing to do with measurement systems, and not economic either [I _expected_ it would cost
    us in the short to medium term].)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 08:14:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 00:31, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    FWIW, British industry (and more of the public than are willing to
    admit) had accepted the existence of the metric system decades before
    Brexit was thought of (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    From a Brexiteer, who happily uses both systems. (I was in favour of
    leaving - though it was close - on grounds that had nothing to do with measurement systems, and not economic either [I_expected_ it would cost
    us in the short to medium term].)

    My sentiments and experience exactly.

    The Brexiteers of the Eu propagandists description never existed outside
    their imagination and the minds of those that believed them.
    --
    The higher up the mountainside
    The greener grows the grass.
    The higher up the monkey climbs
    The more he shows his arse.

    Traditional

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 09:22:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    Did you mean 'suffixes' ?
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 09:23:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 08:10, David Wade wrote:
    On 10/02/2026 00:31, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2026/2/9 8:58:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 08/02/2026 14:25, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Am 08.02.26 um 12:23 schrieb JMB99:
    Surely less chance of errors with '10 ft x 20 ft' than '3.048 m x
    0.6096 m'?

    Seeing as most of the population was taught almost entirely in Metric
    10ft x 20ft is likely to confuse the heck out a good proportion.

    and as most other countries use metric what you call 10' x 20' is more likely to be 3M x 6M or 9ft 10 7/64inch x 9ft 8 7/32inch (to the nearest 1/64th of an inch)


    Surely for the uneducated Brexitards who can't compute?

    Wrong way round. It is the Europhiles who have trouble with
    comprehension, preferring to substitute Blind Belief for critical
    examination.



    What has being a Europhiles has that got to do with Metric? The whole
    world, apart from the USA uses metric. Even those places such as Canada
    and New Zealand which the ardent Brexiteer assured us were willing to
    take the Lamb and Sea Food we were exporting to the EU are almost
    entirely metric.

    Well the issue is that the EU propaganda depicts brexiteers as knuckle dragging racists who want their pints and gallons and miles, and who therefore wanted to leave Europe.,
    In reality, we are engineers and all sorts of things and we wanted to
    leave the EU.

    In the same way that a large number of Americans want to leave the UN,
    and probably NATO.


    To me it appears they are more metric than us, as they have both
    replaced all their road signs with speeds with the metric equivalent.

    Mind you I was served beer in a 20 Ounce glass as apparently Americans
    can't believe our pints are bigger than theirs.


    Its all a storm in a teacup. People use what they have to to get the job
    done.
    Engineering wise the UK is a lot more metric than the USA.

    Diamonds and precious metals are still carats. Or Troy ounces. Guns may
    be .22 .303 or 50 cal or 20mm cannon...

    If you are in to it you know what either means.

    I have no trouble driving on mainland Europe with km/h speed limits.


    Anyone on either side who cannot handle the existence of the other
    system is short-sighted (or worse).

    FWIW, British industry (and more of the public than are willing to
    admit) had accepted the existence of the metric system decades before
    Brexit was thought of (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    -aFrom a Brexiteer, who happily uses both systems. (I was in favour of
    leaving - though it was close - on grounds that had nothing to do with
    measurement systems, and not economic either [I _expected_ it would cost
    us in the short to medium term].)


    I am starting to struggle with some imperial, also temps in "F" but generally either is ok.

    Yes. We abandoned -#F years ago and it took a couple of decades to get
    used to it and now I can't remember what 60-#F feels like.

    Except I personally regarded it as water too cold to swim.

    Dave


    --
    rCLSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of rC?an airplane.rCY

    Dennis Miller


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 09:25:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 09:22, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    Did you mean 'suffixes' ?

    I think he meant prefixes as in centi- or deci- or even deca-
    --
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
    foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

    (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 10:17:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 10/02/2026 09:22, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept
    of prefixes, and thus did everything in millimetres, rather than using
    metres where those would be more appropriate).

    Did you mean 'suffixes' ?

    I think he meant prefixes as in centi- or deci- or even deca-

    I was thinking of the way it was written:

    300 mm
    50 cm
    200 km
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:01:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 08:10, David Wade wrote:
    Seeing as most of the population was taught almost entirely in Metric
    10ft x 20ft is likely to confuse the heck out a good proportion.

    and as most other countries use metric what you call 10' x 20' is more likely to be 3M x 6M or 9ft 10 7/64inch x 9ft 8 7/32inch (to the nearest 1/64th of an inch)


    But if something was built using Imperial units then it will always be
    more accurate to record it in those units particularly if building a
    replica.

    Rather like reading something in the original language and not a
    translation.

    I have often done quick surveys of WWI and WWII structures and always
    record dimensions in the original units used.

    Often amuses when you have news reporters talking about snow or floods,
    you know someone has said it is about six feet deep and they have then converted that guess to a metric figure with several decimal places!
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:02:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 08:10, David Wade wrote:
    Seeing as most of the population was taught almost entirely in Metric
    10ft x 20ft is likely to confuse the heck out a good proportion.

    and as most other countries use metric what you call 10' x 20' is more likely to be 3M x 6M or 9ft 10 7/64inch x 9ft 8 7/32inch (to the nearest 1/64th of an inch)


    But if something was built using Imperial units then it will always be
    more accurate to record it in those units particularly if building a
    replica.

    Rather like reading something in the original language and not a
    translation.

    I have often done quick surveys of WWI and WWII structures and always
    record dimensions in the original units used.

    Often amuses when you have news reporters talking about snow or floods,
    you know someone has said it is about six feet deep and they have then converted that guess to a metric figure with several decimal places!
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:32:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 10:17, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    I was thinking of the way it was written:

    300 mm
    50 cm
    200 km

    You wouldn't call oranges a suffix, in "300 oranges". Prefix was the
    correct word here, for the first character of the units.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Chris J Dixon@chris@cdixon.me.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:46:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    To be fair a lot of my design work is in millimetres. rarely centimetres
    and never decimetres.

    Which is sad. A decimetre is about a hand in equestrian units, and a >convenient size for wood too

    For timber, the length generally uses the metric foot (300 mm).
    Of course, if it is PAR, the other dimensions won't actually be
    that of the piece of wood in front of you, but the nominal size
    of the rough sawn piece before it was planed down.

    I am not sure how much is allowed, but a sharp operator can
    probably work into the margins more than somewhat.

    Chris
    --
    Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
    chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

    Plant amazing Acers.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:48:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 12:01, JMB99 wrote:
    On 10/02/2026 08:10, David Wade wrote:
    Seeing as most of the population was taught almost entirely in Metric
    10ft x 20ft is likely to confuse the heck out a good proportion.

    and as most other countries use metric what you call 10' x 20' is more
    likely to be 3M x 6M or 9ft 10 7/64inch x 9ft 8 7/32inch (to the
    nearest 1/64th of an inch)


    But if something was built using Imperial units then it will always be
    more accurate to record it in those units particularly if building a replica.

    Not really.
    an inch is defined to be *exactly* 25.4 mm

    Rather like reading something in the original language and not a translation.

    My native German speaking nephew preferred reading Kant in English, as
    the translators made the work more comprehensible

    I have often done quick surveys of WWI and WWII structures and always
    record dimensions in the original units used.

    Bully for you.

    Often amuses when you have news reporters talking about snow or floods,
    you know someone has said it is about six feet deep and they have then converted that guess to a metric figure with several decimal places!

    Well they are simply CRAP.
    --
    It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
    for the voice of the kingdom.

    Jonathan Swift


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:55:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    an inch is defined to be exactly 25.4 mm

    It is now, when I was at school some of the ancient books in the library listed it as 25.399 mm

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 12:57:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 12:46, Chris J Dixon wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    To be fair a lot of my design work is in millimetres. rarely centimetres
    and never decimetres.

    Which is sad. A decimetre is about a hand in equestrian units, and a
    convenient size for wood too

    For timber, the length generally uses the metric foot (300 mm).
    Of course, if it is PAR, the other dimensions won't actually be
    that of the piece of wood in front of you, but the nominal size
    of the rough sawn piece before it was planed down.

    I am not sure how much is allowed, but a sharp operator can
    probably work into the margins more than somewhat.

    Chris
    yeah. You tend to get '3m off 100x100mm' etc.

    My joy is an 8' x 4' sheet expressed in mm.
    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob Eager@news0009@eager.cx to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 14:40:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Tue, 10 Feb 2026 09:22:23 +0000, Liz Tuddenham wrote:

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    [...]
    (though in some cases hadn't grasped the concept of prefixes, and thus
    did everything in millimetres, rather than using metres where those
    would be more appropriate).

    Did you mean 'suffixes' ?

    I don't think so.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.telecom on Tue Feb 10 14:42:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 10/02/2026 12:46, Chris J Dixon wrote:
    For timber, the length generally uses the metric foot


    I think I remember from years ago that paving stones were Imperial but
    it was rounded off to a whole metric number so appeared to be metric. I
    think similar happened with a lot of things
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2