• Have BT been making unannounced changes?

    From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 4 12:38:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called, then
    it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently Barnsley
    but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A further check
    showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been advised by
    that BT are/were doing it?


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 4 12:56:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Woody wrote:

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called, then
    it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently Barnsley
    but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A further check
    showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been advised by
    that BT are/were doing it?

    Do you use "BT Call Protect", apparently that can display "nuisance?"

    <https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-calling-features-/bt-call-protect-for-digital-voice>

    That page is in relation to Digital Voice, but it wouldn't surprise me
    if they push analogue calls through the same system ...

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 4 20:34:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sat 04/07/2026 12:56, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called, then
    it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently
    Barnsley but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A
    further check showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been advised
    by that BT are/were doing it?

    Do you use "BT Call Protect", apparently that can display "nuisance?"

    <https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-calling-features-/bt- call-protect-for-digital-voice>

    That page is in relation to Digital Voice, but it wouldn't surprise me
    if they push analogue calls through the same system ...


    Ah, well, you see, there may be something in that, except that we are
    not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls. When I asked why I was
    told that because I don't have B/B from BT but am over pension age they
    are interfacing me to (what I assume is) VoIP (DV) at the exchange. I
    suspect that this is about BT not being able to meet the HMG digital
    targets so they are sidestepping some customers like me so they can
    change us to digital ops in their own time (how many years?) after the
    end of January 2027 and otherwise meet the HMG target. In other words a fiddle. So much for the 'need' to change everyone to fibre and remove
    all of the copper/aluminium cabling!

    For the record my B/B provider is VM which includes a phone service but
    is so expensive for daily needs that it is only used if I need to ring
    them for faults or support, calls to which are free, plus it is cabled
    so still works if the mains fails.

    PoI: I do note that since the changeover that now requires me to dial
    the area code, call set-up is in many cases significantly slower. If I
    ring a friend at the other end of the country I get ringtone almost the instant I finish dialling; if I ring a local number even on the same
    physical exchange as me it can be 6-8 seconds sometimes more before I
    get ringtone. The worst is if I ring a DDI number at the local hospital
    who use VM, the call will divert to voicemail after about 15 secs of
    ring no answer but the first I hear is the answer message - no ringing.
    If however I call the same number from my mobile (on GiffGaff) I get
    ringtone within a second of finishing dialling. How stupid is that?!

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 4 20:49:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK

    Sounds like you may secretly be on a disguised form of Digital Voice?
    What do you get if you dial 17070
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 4 21:44:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 04/07/2026 20:34, Woody wrote:
    On Sat 04/07/2026 12:56, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called,
    then it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently
    Barnsley but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A
    further check showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been advised
    by that BT are/were doing it?

    Do you use "BT Call Protect", apparently that can display "nuisance?"

    <https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-calling-features-/bt-
    call-protect-for-digital-voice>

    That page is in relation to Digital Voice, but it wouldn't surprise me
    if they push analogue calls through the same system ...


    Ah, well, you see, there may be something in that, except that we are
    not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls. When I asked why I was told that because I don't have B/B from BT but am over pension age they
    are interfacing me to (what I assume is) VoIP (DV) at the exchange. I suspect that this is about BT not being able to meet the HMG digital
    targets so they are sidestepping some customers like me so they can
    change us to digital ops in their own time (how many years?) after the
    end of January 2027 and otherwise meet the HMG target. In other words a fiddle. So much for the 'need' to change everyone to fibre and remove
    all of the copper/aluminium cabling!


    I don't believe there are any HMG targets. BT have targets because the exchanges are leased and the leases end in 2030 and they want to close
    the exchanges.

    To enable this there are two migrations in progress. One is the move to
    fibre, and the other is the removal of the old Public Switched Telephone Network, or PSTN and converting all users to VOIP allowing the old
    analogue exchanges to be de-commissioned

    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product which as
    you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange. It allows the
    analogue exchange kit to be removed without putting fibre into your
    house. It is intended to be a "transitional" service, so at some point
    before 2030 you will be switched to fibre.
    For the record my B/B provider is VM which includes a phone service but
    is so expensive for daily needs that it is only used if I need to ring
    them for faults or support, calls to which are free, plus it is cabled
    so still works if the mains fails.


    Are you sure it works in a power cut?

    PoI: I do note that since the changeover that now requires me to dial
    the area code, call set-up is in many cases significantly slower. If I
    ring a friend at the other end of the country I get ringtone almost the instant I finish dialling; if I ring a local number even on the same physical exchange as me it can be 6-8 seconds sometimes more before I
    get ringtone.

    You are not connected to a physical exchange as such, which I suspect
    may be why "local" calls are slow, as if there are any real lines left
    the system has to figure out if it needs to route the call out to the
    old exchange equipment. I would expect this will improve when all lines
    in your exchange are removed. Should be 31st Jan 2027.


    The worst is if I ring a DDI number at the local hospital
    who use VM, the call will divert to voicemail after about 15 secs of
    ring no answer but the first I hear is the answer message - no ringing.
    If however I call the same number from my mobile (on GiffGaff) I get ringtone within a second of finishing dialling. How stupid is that?!


    A bit strange, but I wonder if the hospital is still connected to the
    old exchange kit. Why calls from giffgaff are slow I don't know...


    Dave


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 11:26:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sat 04/07/2026 21:44, David Wade wrote:
    On 04/07/2026 20:34, Woody wrote:
    On Sat 04/07/2026 12:56, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called,
    then it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently
    Barnsley but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A
    further check showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been advised
    by that BT are/were doing it?

    Do you use "BT Call Protect", apparently that can display "nuisance?"

    <https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-calling-features-/bt-
    call-protect-for-digital-voice>

    That page is in relation to Digital Voice, but it wouldn't surprise
    me if they push analogue calls through the same system ...


    Ah, well, you see, there may be something in that, except that we are
    not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls. When I asked why I
    was told that because I don't have B/B from BT but am over pension age
    they are interfacing me to (what I assume is) VoIP (DV) at the
    exchange. I suspect that this is about BT not being able to meet the
    HMG digital targets so they are sidestepping some customers like me so
    they can change us to digital ops in their own time (how many years?)
    after the end of January 2027 and otherwise meet the HMG target. In
    other words a fiddle. So much for the 'need' to change everyone to
    fibre and remove all of the copper/aluminium cabling!


    I don't believe there are any HMG targets. BT have targets because the exchanges are leased and the leases end in 2030 and they want to close
    the exchanges.

    To enable this there are two migrations in progress. One is the move to fibre, and the other is the removal of the old Public Switched Telephone Network, or PSTN and converting all users to VOIP allowing the old
    analogue exchanges to be de-commissioned

    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product which as
    you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange. It allows the
    analogue exchange kit to be removed without putting fibre into your
    house. It is intended to be a "transitional" service, so at some point before 2030 you will be switched to fibre.
    For the record my B/B provider is VM which includes a phone service
    but is so expensive for daily needs that it is only used if I need to
    ring them for faults or support, calls to which are free, plus it is
    cabled so still works if the mains fails.


    Are you sure it works in a power cut?

    PoI: I do note that since the changeover that now requires me to dial
    the area code, call set-up is in many cases significantly slower. If I
    ring a friend at the other end of the country I get ringtone almost
    the instant I finish dialling; if I ring a local number even on the
    same physical exchange as me it can be 6-8 seconds sometimes more
    before I get ringtone.

    You are not connected to a physical exchange as such, which I suspect
    may be why "local" calls are slow, as if there are any real lines left
    the system has to figure out if it needs to route the call out to the
    old exchange equipment. I would expect this will improve when all lines
    in your exchange are removed. Should be 31st Jan 2027.


    The worst is if I ring a DDI number at the local hospital
    who use VM, the call will divert to voicemail after about 15 secs of
    ring no answer but the first I hear is the answer message - no
    ringing. If however I call the same number from my mobile (on
    GiffGaff) I get ringtone within a second of finishing dialling. How
    stupid is that?!


    A bit strange, but I wonder if the hospital is still connected to the
    old exchange kit. Why calls from giffgaff are slow I don't know...


    Dave


    Read again. Calls to local number via GG are almost instant.The
    concentrator has a gas powered generator on site as it handles all local
    B/B as well. Having said that the power failed a couple of weeks ago and
    it seems the genny didn't start which meant B/B was down for about 2
    hours until Northern Power got their act together. It affected about -+
    of the town.

    VM phone is twisted pair to the local concentrator AFAIK as the original install in this area was done by Bell Cablemedia who had a reputation
    for reliability and quality workmanship.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 11:27:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sat 04/07/2026 20:49, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK

    Sounds like you may secretly be on a disguised form of Digital Voice?
    What do you get if you dial 17070

    Exactly what I would expect to get. My number followed by six options.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 12:12:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK.

    You could try to use one of the features that is _NOT_ available on DV
    (alarm call, ringback etc) n.b. they will be chargeable if they do
    somehow work

    There's a list of what is/isn't supported in the FAQ

    <https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/special-services/pdpl-wholesale-faq.pdf>


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 12:28:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 11:26, Woody wrote:
    On Sat 04/07/2026 21:44, David Wade wrote:
    On 04/07/2026 20:34, Woody wrote:
    On Sat 04/07/2026 12:56, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    Unlike many we still have a BT landline phone - Panasonic DECT.

    Ever since we have had it, if a call with number withheld called,
    then it just showed 'Withheld' on the CLI.

    This last week we have had two calls:-
    one said "Private?" and there was no number attached;
    the second said "Nuisance?" but there was a number - apparently
    Barnsley but looks to be issued by a VoIP provider in Belgium. A
    further check showed it was indeed a nuisance/scam call.

    Has anyone else encountered this change in operation or been
    advised by that BT are/were doing it?

    Do you use "BT Call Protect", apparently that can display "nuisance?"

    <https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-calling-features-/bt- call-protect-for-digital-voice>

    That page is in relation to Digital Voice, but it wouldn't surprise
    me if they push analogue calls through the same system ...


    Ah, well, you see, there may be something in that, except that we are
    not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls. When I asked why I
    was told that because I don't have B/B from BT but am over pension
    age they are interfacing me to (what I assume is) VoIP (DV) at the
    exchange. I suspect that this is about BT not being able to meet the
    HMG digital targets so they are sidestepping some customers like me
    so they can change us to digital ops in their own time (how many
    years?) after the end of January 2027 and otherwise meet the HMG
    target. In other words a fiddle. So much for the 'need' to change
    everyone to fibre and remove all of the copper/aluminium cabling!


    I don't believe there are any HMG targets. BT have targets because the
    exchanges are leased and the leases end in 2030 and they want to close
    the exchanges.

    To enable this there are two migrations in progress. One is the move
    to fibre, and the other is the removal of the old Public Switched
    Telephone Network, or PSTN and converting all users to VOIP allowing
    the old analogue exchanges to be de-commissioned

    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product which as
    you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange. It allows the
    analogue exchange kit to be removed without putting fibre into your
    house. It is intended to be a "transitional" service, so at some point
    before 2030 you will be switched to fibre.
    For the record my B/B provider is VM which includes a phone service
    but is so expensive for daily needs that it is only used if I need to
    ring them for faults or support, calls to which are free, plus it is
    cabled so still works if the mains fails.


    Are you sure it works in a power cut?

    PoI: I do note that since the changeover that now requires me to dial
    the area code, call set-up is in many cases significantly slower. If
    I ring a friend at the other end of the country I get ringtone almost
    the instant I finish dialling; if I ring a local number even on the
    same physical exchange as me it can be 6-8 seconds sometimes more
    before I get ringtone.

    You are not connected to a physical exchange as such, which I suspect
    may be why "local" calls are slow, as if there are any real lines left
    the system has to figure out if it needs to route the call out to the
    old exchange equipment. I would expect this will improve when all
    lines in your exchange are removed. Should be 31st Jan 2027.


    The worst is if I ring a DDI number at the local hospital
    who use VM, the call will divert to voicemail after about 15 secs of
    ring no answer but the first I hear is the answer message - no
    ringing. If however I call the same number from my mobile (on
    GiffGaff) I get ringtone within a second of finishing dialling. How
    stupid is that?!


    A bit strange, but I wonder if the hospital is still connected to the
    old exchange kit. Why calls from giffgaff are slow I don't know...


    Dave


    Read again. Calls to local number via GG are almost instant.The
    concentrator has a gas powered generator on site as it handles all local
    B/B as well. Having said that the power failed a couple of weeks ago and
    it seems the genny didn't start which meant B/B was down for about 2
    hours until Northern Power got their act together. It affected about -+
    of the town.

    VM phone is twisted pair to the local concentrator AFAIK as the original install in this area was done by Bell Cablemedia who had a reputation
    for reliability and quality workmanship.

    Yes, the standard of Virgin Media's network does vary. I am in an
    ex-NYNEX area where they do not have a good reputation.

    I asked about the phone as my brother who is in the Northeast where the original network was apparently CableTel then NTL had has service
    migrated to FTTP and VOIP. Not ordered by him, done proactively. I
    assumed Virgin was doing this everywhere but I see that is not
    necessarily the case. They plan to have xPON available everywhere by
    next year, but the plan to migrate customers to it runs until 2040.

    Dave


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 13:33:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/7/5 12:12:52, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK.

    You could try to use one of the features that is _NOT_ available on DV > (alarm call, ringback etc) n.b. they will be chargeable if they do
    somehow work

    There's a list of what is/isn't supported in the FAQ

    <https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/special-services/pdpl-wholesale-faq.pdf>


    Is that list supplier-independent? I know on POTS/PSTN some things do vary.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 14:03:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    Andy Burns wrote:

    There's a list of what is/isn't supported in the FAQ
    <https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/special-services/pdpl-wholesale-faq.pdf>

    Is that list supplier-independent? I know on POTS/PSTN some things do vary.

    I would say it applies to any supplier who re-sells Digital Voice (e.g
    BT, EE, Zen) but not relevant for other VoIP suppliers (A&A, voipfone etc).

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 14:20:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    Andy Burns wrote:

    There's a list of what is/isn't supported in the FAQ
    <https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/special-services/pdpl-wholesale-faq.pdf>

    Is that list supplier-independent? I know on POTS/PSTN some things do
    vary.

    I would say it applies to any supplier who re-sells Digital Voice (e.g
    BT, EE, Zen) but not relevant for other VoIP suppliers (A&A, voipfone etc).

    The ZEN product is provisioned via the SIP support in the Fritz!Box
    router, so if its "BT Digital Voice" being resold does that mean BT is
    using standard protocols?

    Dave
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 14:33:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    David Wade wrote:

    The ZEN product is provisioned via the SIP support in the Fritz!Box
    router, so if its "BT Digital Voice" being resold does that mean BT is
    using standard protocols?
    Maybe Zen have at various times resold DV, and other times their own
    VoIP, I do remember customers talking about it being DV

    I imagine everyone uses standard protocols, why wouldn't they?

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 18:49:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 14:20, David Wade wrote:
    does that mean BT is using standard protocols?

    BT are using SIP, but over a different VPN, for the PPP over Ethernet,
    from that used for any broadband, on the same line. They also don't
    provide you with credentials necessary to bypass their hub.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 18:54:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 04/07/2026 21:44, David Wade wrote:
    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product which as
    you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange. It allows the
    analogue exchange kit to be removed without putting fibre into your
    house. It is intended to be a "transitional" service, so at some point before 2030 you will be switched to fibre.

    I think the conversion is done in the cabinet. I think the HMG
    involvement is with regard to avoiding confusing users who depend on the landline for emergencies and won't understand concepts like UPS's, or
    the need to provide power for a hub, and find space for it. It is a
    service for over 70's and vulnerable users.

    Just beware if you get broadband via Openreach, but not from a BT owned
    ISP. Their propaganda didn't mention that they were going to cease my broadband when they switched me over.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:03:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    David Woolley wrote:

    BT are using SIP, but over a different VPN, for the PPP over Ethernet,
    from that used for any broadband, on the same line.-a They also don't provide you with credentials necessary to bypass their hub.

    A different VPN, or on a different VLAN?
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:10:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Andy Burns wrote:

    on a different VLAN?

    Apparently not ...

    <https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4664092-bt-fttp-with-digital-voice-alternative-to-smart-hub-2.html?fpart=2#Post4666538>

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From angus@angus@magsys.co.uk (Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd) to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:19:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product
    which as you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange.

    I think the conversion is done in the cabinet.

    Pre-Digital Phone Line (PDPL) Media Gateway equipment is being installed at most telephone exchanges, not cabinets, to provide an emulation of the PSTN service using BT Wholesale VoIP.

    It it totally separate to all existing services, but will cease within a few years and the exchange buildings close.

    PDPL costs u53/month per line.

    Angus

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:20:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 19:03, Andy Burns wrote:

    A different VPN, or on a different VLAN?

    My slip up. A different VLAN.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:22:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 18:54, David Woolley wrote:
    On 04/07/2026 21:44, David Wade wrote:
    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product which as
    you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange. It allows the
    analogue exchange kit to be removed without putting fibre into your
    house. It is intended to be a "transitional" service, so at some point
    before 2030 you will be switched to fibre.

    I think the conversion is done in the cabinet.

    I believe that was the original plan, but every thing I have read says
    its now done in the Exchange. This makes sense as there might be no FTTC
    cab they can use, it solves power cut issues, and they do want to remove
    the FTTC cabs.


    I think the HMG
    involvement is with regard to avoiding confusing users who depend on the landline for emergencies and won't understand concepts like UPS's, or
    the need to provide power for a hub, and find space for it.-a It is a service for over 70's and vulnerable users.

    Just beware if you get broadband via Openreach, but not from a BT owned ISP.-a Their propaganda didn't mention that they were going to cease my broadband when they switched me over.

    Yes, that can happen....

    Dave
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 19:27:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 19:10, Andy Burns wrote:

    on a different VLAN?

    Apparently not ...

    <https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4664092-bt-fttp-with-digital- voice-alternative-to-smart-hub-2.html?fpart=2#Post4666538>

    Broadband is on tagged VLAN 101, on FTTC, and some sources say that
    Digital Voice is untagged. The situation is a bit more confusing for
    FTTP, which I don't have, but is probably done but hidden in the ONT.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 20:13:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    David Woolley wrote:

    Broadband is on tagged VLAN 101, on FTTC

    Yes, that much I do know from when I re-flashed a HH5A with openWRT

    and some sources say that
    Digital Voice is untagged.

    I don't have DV, so can't test, I know from SINet documents they can
    provision extra VLANs (maybe for VoD?)

    The situation is a bit more confusing for
    FTTP, which I don't-a have

    Me neither, but it seems to be getting closer (I can find houses a few
    hundred metres away where it's available).

    but is probably done but hidden in the ONT.

    I could look for 801.1q or 802.1ad (QinQ) packets once I do get FTTP,
    but would assume they'd be non-existent unless provisioned.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 20:42:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/7/5 19:18:0, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product
    which as you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange.

    I think the conversion is done in the cabinet.

    Pre-Digital Phone Line (PDPL) Media Gateway equipment is being installed at most telephone exchanges, not cabinets, to provide an emulation of the PSTN service using BT Wholesale VoIP.

    It it totally separate to all existing services, but will cease within a few years and the exchange buildings close.

    PDPL costs +U53/month per line.

    Angus

    _Who_ does it cost that much? (And why so much?)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    And on the question of authorship, I subscribe to the view that the
    plays were not in fact written by Shakespeare but by someone of the
    same name. - Hugh Bonneville (RT 2014/10/11-17)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Sun Jul 5 21:27:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 05/07/2026 20:42, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2026/7/5 19:18:0, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
    So you have been put on the "pre digital phone line" product
    which as you suspect puts the voip conversion in the exchange.

    I think the conversion is done in the cabinet.

    Pre-Digital Phone Line (PDPL) Media Gateway equipment is being installed at >> most telephone exchanges, not cabinets, to provide an emulation of the PSTN >> service using BT Wholesale VoIP.

    It it totally separate to all existing services, but will cease within a few >> years and the exchange buildings close.

    PDPL costs +U53/month per line.

    Angus

    _Who_ does it cost that much? (And why so much?)

    no idea "who", but the idea is to get you to move to voip.

    Dave
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Trolleybus@ken@birchanger.com to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 09:43:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sun, 5 Jul 2026 14:33:21 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
    wrote:

    David Wade wrote:

    The ZEN product is provisioned via the SIP support in the Fritz!Box
    router, so if its "BT Digital Voice" being resold does that mean BT is
    using standard protocols?
    Maybe Zen have at various times resold DV, and other times their own
    VoIP, I do remember customers talking about it being DV

    I imagine everyone uses standard protocols, why wouldn't they?

    I attended meetings at BT in about 2000. At one time BT had submitted
    1000 change requests to SIP and related protocols as they planned for
    what is now DV.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richmond@dnomhcir@gmx.com to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 10:51:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> writes:

    On Sun, 5 Jul 2026 14:33:21 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
    wrote:

    David Wade wrote:

    The ZEN product is provisioned via the SIP support in the Fritz!Box
    router, so if its "BT Digital Voice" being resold does that mean BT
    is using standard protocols? >>Maybe Zen have at various times
    resold DV, and other times their own >>VoIP, I do remember customers
    talking about it being DV

    I imagine everyone uses standard protocols, why wouldn't they?

    I attended meetings at BT in about 2000. At one time BT had submitted
    1000 change requests to SIP and related protocols as they planned for
    what is now DV.

    They use their own protocols to hide what they are doing and lock you
    into their hardware. Let's call it the Amazon model.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 13:52:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
    Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> writes:

    On Sun, 5 Jul 2026 14:33:21 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
    wrote:

    David Wade wrote:

    The ZEN product is provisioned via the SIP support in the Fritz!Box
    router, so if its "BT Digital Voice" being resold does that mean BT
    is using standard protocols? >>Maybe Zen have at various times
    resold DV, and other times their own >>VoIP, I do remember customers
    talking about it being DV

    I imagine everyone uses standard protocols, why wouldn't they?

    I attended meetings at BT in about 2000. At one time BT had submitted
    1000 change requests to SIP and related protocols as they planned for
    what is now DV.

    They use their own protocols to hide what they are doing and lock you
    into their hardware. Let's call it the Amazon model.

    Nobody has shown any evidence of BT using their own protocols. AFAICS
    they're using standards like SIP, PPPoE, VLANs, TR-069, maybe TR-104. For
    one thing, their own protocols would require their own software loaded on routers, which would have to be commissioned from the router manufacturers. While routers often have a bit of UI personalisation, they're typically
    pretty standard underneath.

    However increasingly ISPs consider the CPE to be part of their network -
    they manage it, they provide security updates, they send you a new one if it breaks. Given how poorly managed some third party routers are (lack of security updates from the vendor, insecure settings, sometimes included malware), there's an argument that this is the way of least harm to both
    their network and their customers.

    Now you or I might balk at this transfer of power to the ISP, but I think
    it's the right thing for 90+% of people. And it's not like we don't have options if we want to do our own thing. (As soon as they start blocking our options, then is the time for the pitchforks)

    Theo
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From angus@angus@magsys.co.uk (Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd) to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 14:26:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    PDPL costs u53/month per line.

    _Who_ does it cost that much? (And why so much?)

    PDPL is a business line, designed for strange locations like lift emergency phones, currently business line rental is u48/month (plus VAT) so PDPL is only a little more. No connection fee.

    But it requires BT to buy and install up to 4,000 new media gateways with a short life, so not cheap to provide.

    Angus


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richmond@dnomhcir@gmx.com to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 15:42:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

    Nobody has shown any evidence of BT using their own protocols.

    How do you know that nobody has?

    AFAICS

    How far can you see? What is in the realm beyond that which you can see?

    they're using standards like SIP, PPPoE, VLANs, TR-069, maybe TR-104.

    Maybe, but they then conceal it and call it BT DV or whatever.

    Can you use any equipment with BT? or do you have to use their
    equipment?


    However increasingly ISPs consider the CPE to be part of their network -
    they manage it, they provide security updates, they send you a new one if it breaks. Given how poorly managed some third party routers are (lack of security updates from the vendor, insecure settings, sometimes included malware), there's an argument that this is the way of least harm to both their network and their customers.

    I was really impressed by the way AAISP handles security updates to the
    router. What I thought might be a daunting task, and might leave me with
    a brick, actually happened without me even noticing.

    We may see much more need for security updates to routers with people
    pointing AI at them.

    (I snipped things to avoid clutter, not for any other reason).
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 18:26:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

    Nobody has shown any evidence of BT using their own protocols.

    How do you know that nobody has?

    Has anyone offered any evidence of it?

    AFAICS

    How far can you see? What is in the realm beyond that which you can see?

    All I can see is what people on various forums have posted about digging
    into the system. I confess I haven't conducted an in-depth study, I have
    just skimmed various threads.

    I have also reverse engineered Sky's implementation (which is standard SIP
    with TR-104); I have never had a BT connection to try their version.

    With Sky, I could extract the server details out of one of their routers
    that I bought on ebay and talk to the TR-069 server without being their customer. Because I'd not want to be a BT customer except under duress I
    was not motivated to do the same for BT.

    How much reverse engineering have you done?

    they're using standards like SIP, PPPoE, VLANs, TR-069, maybe TR-104.

    Maybe, but they then conceal it and call it BT DV or whatever.

    Can you use any equipment with BT? or do you have to use their
    equipment?

    That's a different point to using proprietary standards. I can offer an
    email service use bog standard IMAP but if you don't have the password you can't use it. BT are just not giving customers the information needed to
    use their service, because they have decided not to.

    I was really impressed by the way AAISP handles security updates to the router. What I thought might be a daunting task, and might leave me with
    a brick, actually happened without me even noticing.

    We may see much more need for security updates to routers with people pointing AI at them.

    (I snipped things to avoid clutter, not for any other reason).

    I think for most people the position is best where the ISP is in charge of updating their CPE. They know exactly what equipment they have deployed and they can push out firmware updates, or automatically send you a new box if
    your current one is life expired.

    If you leave it to the customers, some proportional of them will go buy something dubious from Aliexpress that either gets no updates or is a
    malware honeypot. Even leading brands like Netgear only give a few years of updates, and generally speaking you're unlikely to notice your router
    firmware is out of date (it can't pop something on screen to say 'update available now!').

    For FTTC, I found that the speed was very dependent on the match between the Huawei cabinet and the modem firmware. I used to run the HH5a with OpenWRT
    and there were a lot of different modem firmware versions to choose from -
    some were faster and more stable than others, with seemingly no correlation between version number and speed or stability. I gave up playing
    whack-a-mole and just used the Vodafone router, which seemed to give both
    speed and stability; seemingly the Broadcom modem in that was better talking
    to the Broadcom cabinet than the Lantiq modem in the HH5a. I expect if you used the HH5a with the original BT firmware then they had carefully chosen
    the modem firmware to be the most stable for their network.

    Theo
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richmond@dnomhcir@gmx.com to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 19:13:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

    I have also reverse engineered Sky's implementation (which is standard SIP with TR-104); I have never had a BT connection to try their version.

    If you had to reverse enginner it to find out what it was, doesn't that
    mean they have hidden an open protocol behind closed doors?

    How much reverse engineering have you done?

    None, but that doesn't mean I am wrong necessarily.

    That's a different point to using proprietary standards. I can offer an email service use bog standard IMAP but if you don't have the password you can't use it. BT are just not giving customers the information needed to
    use their service, because they have decided not to.

    The original question which I was trying to answer was why would BT not
    use the open standards? (Andy Burns). My answer is to tie people into
    hardware. If they use open standards behind closed doors then that
    amounts to the same thing, I think.

    I think for most people the position is best where the ISP is in charge of updating their CPE.

    I agree. So many people struggle even to use their smartphones. They
    won't even be thinking about this sort of thing. It is a utility. It
    should just work. Unfortunately ISPs do silly things like having WPS and Universal Plug and Play switched on because they don't want the support
    calls when it doesn't work.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 22:34:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/7/6 13:52:41, Theo wrote:
    []
    Nobody has shown any evidence of BT using their own protocols. AFAICS they're using standards like SIP, PPPoE, VLANs, TR-069, maybe TR-104. For one thing, their own protocols would require their own software loaded on routers, which would have to be commissioned from the router manufacturers. While routers often have a bit of UI personalisation, they're typically pretty standard underneath.

    I suppose disabling could be described as "personalisation"; PlusNet
    supply (so I'm told) a standard BT "router", but with the ATA that's
    already in it disabled. which seems very dog-in-the-manger.
    []
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 22:49:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    On 2026/7/6 13:52:41, Theo wrote:
    []
    Nobody has shown any evidence of BT using their own protocols. AFAICS they're using standards like SIP, PPPoE, VLANs, TR-069, maybe TR-104. For one thing, their own protocols would require their own software loaded on routers, which would have to be commissioned from the router manufacturers. While routers often have a bit of UI personalisation, they're typically pretty standard underneath.

    I suppose disabling could be described as "personalisation"; PlusNet
    supply (so I'm told) a standard BT "router", but with the ATA that's
    already in it disabled. which seems very dog-in-the-manger.
    []

    Many routers are based on OpenWRT with a proprietary UI skin over the top. When they order them from the manufacturer, part of the specifying process
    is that the ISP gets to select from a menu of different features they want
    to offer. These then get turned into a board configuration that says which feature flags are enabled in the OS build. Run the build process and out
    pops a firmware image with only the requested features enabled. The manufacturer typically provides their own web UI (replacing OpenWRT's Luci)
    and then there are customisations that can be applied, eg logos, text etc.

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip
    of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving
    and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes. Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE
    or PN branded plastic case to match.

    Theo
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.telecom on Mon Jul 6 23:35:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/07/2026 22:49, Theo wrote:

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes. Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE or PN branded plastic case to match.

    My daughter#s Plusnet FTTP install came with an EE Smart Hub 6 with the
    blue '8' logo on the front and SSID of EE...

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 08:46:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/07/2026 13:52, Theo wrote:
    Now you or I might balk at this transfer of power to the ISP, but I think it's the right thing for 90+% of people. And it's not like we don't have options if we want to do our own thing. (As soon as they start blocking our options, then is the time for the pitchforks)
    It is a great dilemma.

    Look at the current furore over John Deere farm equipment.

    "You are too stupid to fix it"
    "Then I'll buy something slightly more expensive that I CAN fix. From
    Germany"
    --
    rCLThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 08:50:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/07/2026 19:13, Richmond wrote:
    The original question which I was trying to answer was why would BT not
    use the open standards? (Andy Burns). My answer is to tie people into hardware. If they use open standards behind closed doors then that
    amounts to the same thing, I think.

    BT have decided that making everyone use ifdentical supplied equipment
    reduces support issues.

    If it loses than 10% of technically competent customers well, so what?
    --
    Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early twenty-first centuryrCOs developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
    on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
    projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

    Richard Lindzen

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Wade@g4ugm@dave.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 09:01:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 07/07/2026 08:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 13:52, Theo wrote:
    Now you or I might balk at this transfer of power to the ISP, but I think
    it's the right thing for 90+% of people.-a And it's not like we don't have >> options if we want to do our own thing.-a (As soon as they start
    blocking our
    options, then is the time for the pitchforks)
    It is a great dilemma.

    Look at the current furore over John Deere farm equipment.

    "You are too stupid to fix it"
    "Then I'll buy something slightly more expensive that I CAN fix. From Germany"


    OK so having ZEN and a Fritz!Box but the telephony from voipfone.co.uk
    is sensible!

    But from BT/EEs point of view have pre-configured routers that you just
    plug your phone into makes a great deal of sense to BT. It must reduce
    the number of support calls.

    Actually the Fritz!boxes ZEN provide with its phone service are pretty good.

    You can connect multiple devices to its SIP server, it has an
    answerphone that can be set to e-mail the voice messages. I think you
    can even add additional VOIP numbers..

    Dave
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From David Woolley@david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 09:13:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 06/07/2026 14:25, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
    PDPL is a business line, designed for strange locations like lift emergency phones, currently business line rental is +U48/month (plus VAT) so PDPL is only
    a little more. No connection fee.

    PDPL is an Openreach product, so always a B2B sale. It is also used by retailers, like BT retail, for the over 70's etc. BT retail do not sell
    it to new domestic customers, so they don't need to give the product a
    name, in fact part of the intention is to make it look as close as
    possible to the the existing product.

    <https://www.bt.com/bt-plc/assets/documents/special-services/pdpl-wholesale-faq.pdf>
    specifically mentions telecare, which is things like alarm pendants for
    the elderly. Rather than determine exactly who is actually using these,
    they seem to have classed all over 70s as vulnerable (there may also
    have been pressure from the government to widen the scope). Note that
    this document is targetted at retailers, not at end users, so ultimately
    it is up to the retailer to decide for whom to use it.

    It wouldn't make sense for Openreach to offer two products with a very
    similar characteristics of the ability to "emulate (as close as
    possible) a traditional phone line".
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From angus@angus@magsys.co.uk (Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd) to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 10:46:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    PDPL is an Openreach product, so always a B2B sale.

    Pre-Digital Phone Line is also the name used by BT Retail, with details in the standard BT Price List, for all eligible customers.

    https://www.bt.com/pricing/current/Exch_Lines_boo/FrameworkImpl2133479.htm#Frame
    workImpl2133479

    It is also available at wholesale prices for other operators to resell.

    Angus


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 11:05:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 13:52, Theo wrote:
    Now you or I might balk at this transfer of power to the ISP, but I think it's the right thing for 90+% of people. And it's not like we don't have options if we want to do our own thing. (As soon as they start blocking our
    options, then is the time for the pitchforks)
    It is a great dilemma.

    Look at the current furore over John Deere farm equipment.

    "You are too stupid to fix it"
    "Then I'll buy something slightly more expensive that I CAN fix. From Germany"

    That's a bit different. Your $500k combine harvester sits down in the
    middle of the prairie saying 'error 42, call service'. Service is three
    states away and is booked up for weeks. Meanwhile everyone is frantically trying to get the harvest in before the thunderclouds break.

    It's a strong argument for DIY because you simply can't 'get a man in' under those conditions, irrespective of home much you'd be willing to pay for it.
    The only person able to fix the problem before losing the harvest is you.

    Here you're buying a service and the ISP is in the best position to deliver
    it to you if they also provide the router.

    I suspect another part of this is that, with increasing FTTP speeds, people complain that 'they can't get the advertised speed' when actually it's the
    wifi between their device and the router that's the weak point rather than
    the FTTP speed. Like it or not complaints (eg on review sites) are often
    about wifi not fibre. By the ISP providing the wifi hardware it means they have some control over its wifi performance. Conveniently (for them), it
    also enables them to upsell mesh solutions, often on a rental basis...

    Theo
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 13:41:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 07/07/2026 11:05, Theo wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 13:52, Theo wrote:
    Now you or I might balk at this transfer of power to the ISP, but I think >>> it's the right thing for 90+% of people. And it's not like we don't have >>> options if we want to do our own thing. (As soon as they start blocking our
    options, then is the time for the pitchforks)
    It is a great dilemma.

    Look at the current furore over John Deere farm equipment.

    "You are too stupid to fix it"
    "Then I'll buy something slightly more expensive that I CAN fix. From
    Germany"

    That's a bit different. Your $500k combine harvester sits down in the
    middle of the prairie saying 'error 42, call service'. Service is three states away and is booked up for weeks. Meanwhile everyone is frantically trying to get the harvest in before the thunderclouds break.

    It's a strong argument for DIY because you simply can't 'get a man in' under those conditions, irrespective of home much you'd be willing to pay for it. The only person able to fix the problem before losing the harvest is you.

    Here you're buying a service and the ISP is in the best position to deliver it to you if they also provide the router.

    Its is merely a matter of degree,
    Some people like Communism. It tells them what to think what job to do,
    and gives them a state provided accommodation

    It is essentially slavery, but hey, some slaves were happy being slaves, Thinking is hard. Making decisions is hard. Doing what you are told and grumbling about it is much easier

    I suspect another part of this is that, with increasing FTTP speeds, people complain that 'they can't get the advertised speed' when actually it's the wifi between their device and the router that's the weak point rather than the FTTP speed. Like it or not complaints (eg on review sites) are often about wifi not fibre. By the ISP providing the wifi hardware it means they have some control over its wifi performance. Conveniently (for them), it also enables them to upsell mesh solutions, often on a rental basis...

    Theo

    Yep. Love of communism runs deep in BT customers.
    --
    Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 22:23:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/7/6 23:35:4, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 22:49, Theo wrote:

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip >> of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not
    provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving >> and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes. >> Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE >> or PN branded plastic case to match.

    My daughter#s Plusnet FTTP install came with an EE Smart Hub 6 with the blue '8' logo on the front and SSID of EE...

    If you/she connect to its web interface, does it appear to be (logos
    etc.) a PlusNet or an EE device?

    If the latter, I wonder if the ATA in it _can_ be accessed (since AIUI
    EE _do_ do VoIP)!
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    People may say I can't sing, but no-one can ever say I didn't sing.
    Florence Foster Jenkins (reportedly)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 23:03:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    On 2026/7/6 23:35:4, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 22:49, Theo wrote:

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip
    of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not
    provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving
    and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes.
    Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE
    or PN branded plastic case to match.

    My daughter#s Plusnet FTTP install came with an EE Smart Hub 6 with the blue '8' logo on the front and SSID of EE...

    If you/she connect to its web interface, does it appear to be (logos
    etc.) a PlusNet or an EE device?

    If the latter, I wonder if the ATA in it _can_ be accessed (since AIUI
    EE _do_ do VoIP)!

    I would not be surprised if they can reflash routers with BT or EE or PN firmware remotely, based on the customer they are being used by. ie router connects to provisioning server (typically via TR-069), server identifies
    it's on a PN connection, says 'hey, I have a firmware update for you', the router installs it and reboots into the PN firmware.

    Perhaps it was originally running EE firmware out of the box but as soon as
    it connected they 'updated' it to the PN firmware?

    Theo
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J. P. Gilliver@G6JPG@255soft.uk to uk.telecom on Tue Jul 7 23:35:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 2026/7/7 23:3:39, Theo wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    On 2026/7/6 23:35:4, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 22:49, Theo wrote:

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip
    of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not >>>> provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving
    and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes.
    Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE
    or PN branded plastic case to match.

    My daughter#s Plusnet FTTP install came with an EE Smart Hub 6 with the >>> blue '8' logo on the front and SSID of EE...

    If you/she connect to its web interface, does it appear to be (logos
    etc.) a PlusNet or an EE device?

    If the latter, I wonder if the ATA in it _can_ be accessed (since AIUI
    EE _do_ do VoIP)!

    I would not be surprised if they can reflash routers with BT or EE or PN firmware remotely, based on the customer they are being used by. ie router connects to provisioning server (typically via TR-069), server identifies it's on a PN connection, says 'hey, I have a firmware update for you', the router installs it and reboots into the PN firmware.

    Perhaps it was originally running EE firmware out of the box but as soon as it connected they 'updated' it to the PN firmware?

    Theo

    Over to you, Nick!
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Capital flows toward lower costs like a river to lowest ground.
    "MJ", 2015-12-05
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Andy Burns@usenet@andyburns.uk to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 11 09:48:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls.

    So have you concluded tat you *are* on DV (via a PDPL)?

    Were you on some form of priority register that would have prompted BT
    to move you to that product?

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 11 11:14:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On Sat 11/07/2026 09:48, Andy Burns wrote:
    Woody wrote:

    we are not on DV AFAIK.

    Having said that a month or two ago we had to start dialling the full
    area code as well as number even for local calls.

    So have you concluded tat you *are* on DV (via a PDPL)?

    Were you on some form of priority register that would have prompted BT
    to move you to that product?


    Only age related - which we never asked fro but BT did anyway.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.telecom on Sat Jul 11 16:52:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.telecom

    On 07/07/2026 23:35, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2026/7/7 23:3:39, Theo wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    On 2026/7/6 23:35:4, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 06/07/2026 22:49, Theo wrote:

    So changing from provisioning the ATA to not provisioning it is just a flip
    of a config switch. They could also save a bit of hardware cost by not >>>>> provisioning the analogue phone components, but that's not a massive saving
    and perhaps outweighed by just producing the same board in greater volumes.
    Then flash it with the appropriate firmware image and stick it in a BT or EE
    or PN branded plastic case to match.

    My daughter#s Plusnet FTTP install came with an EE Smart Hub 6 with the >>>> blue '8' logo on the front and SSID of EE...

    If you/she connect to its web interface, does it appear to be (logos
    etc.) a PlusNet or an EE device?

    If the latter, I wonder if the ATA in it _can_ be accessed (since AIUI
    EE _do_ do VoIP)!

    It is all EE logos, broadband username bthumehub, no mention of a phone.

    I would not be surprised if they can reflash routers with BT or EE or PN
    firmware remotely, based on the customer they are being used by. ie router >> connects to provisioning server (typically via TR-069), server identifies
    it's on a PN connection, says 'hey, I have a firmware update for you', the >> router installs it and reboots into the PN firmware.

    Perhaps it was originally running EE firmware out of the box but as soon as >> it connected they 'updated' it to the PN firmware?

    "Firmware updated: N/A"
    Installed over a year ago, only about 1 month in the log, but no sign of
    any remote managemnt.

    Over to you, Nick!

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2