June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
On 28/06/2026 23:54, David Dalton wrote:
June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular, have
an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a higher pedestal?
On 28/06/2026 23:54, David Dalton wrote:
June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular, have
an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God. That's it, ordinary people doing God's
work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a higher pedestal?
We had a sermon yesterday about those two guys. They didn't seem to getThere is one single instance where Paul disagreed with something Peter
on well together! It seems they were two very different people. But I suppose it shows how God chooses all kinds of people, and therefore some friction is likely from time to time between Christians.
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular, haveIt's all down to the mistaken belief that you go to heaven immediately
an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a higher pedestal?
A lot depends on whether one believes in 'soul sleep' or not. My own
belief is that the departed are in an 'extra-temporal' realm. That is because I believe that we are in what might be thought of as a
'simulation', and therefore Time-Space is a framework specific to our present existence. If they are somehow 'Outside' that framework, then there's no reason to think that they might not have access to anywhere
in both Time and Space.
June 29 is also known as Day of the Christian Martyr.
On 29/06/2026 10:59, John wrote:
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular,
have an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing
God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a
higher pedestal?
The thinking behind that is, I think, the notion of "The communion of
the saints". That is, the idea that all Christians can join together
in prayer, including those that have 'Gone before'.
A lot depends on whether one believes in 'soul sleep' or not. My own
belief is that the departed are in an 'extra-temporal' realm. That is
because I believe that we are in what might be thought of as a
'simulation', and therefore Time-Space is a framework specific to our
present existence. If they are somehow 'Outside' that framework, then
there's no reason to think that they might not have access to anywhere
in both Time and Space.
So, traditional Christianity holds to the notion that we can ask those Christians that have gone before, to join us in prayer. But of course,
we really only want to join with those that 'Made It' into that realm!
So traditionally the church recognised select individuals DID make it,
an obvious example being St Mary the mother of Christ.
As for me, my place has already been taken, there is already a St
Timothy and of course, a St John, come to that. (Yes, I know there can
be and are several saints sharing the same names, just my little
joke!)
* Timreason <111tsh7$ca50$1@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Mon, 29 Jun 2026 14:38:47 +0100:
On 29/06/2026 10:59, John wrote:
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular,
have an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing
God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a
higher pedestal?
The thinking behind that is, I think, the notion of "The communion of
the saints". That is, the idea that all Christians can join together
in prayer, including those that have 'Gone before'.
This last sunday I was listening to choral evensong on bbc 3 at 10:30 PM after attending the evening sermon at the local church at 7, it wasnt by
the pastor by a member where he highlighted the life of John the
Baptist, pretty effectively. The bbc service from Portsmouth was also
about John the Baptist, which was also powerful, and I assumed it was
that saint's day but I forgot it was a rebroadcast from Wednesday the
24th which turned out to be that blessed saint's day.
In that context - commemmorating the memories of the biblical
personalities focussing on the biblical lessons in their life and the teachings doesn't seem idolatrous.
In that context - commemmorating the memories of the biblical
personalities focussing on the biblical lessons in their life and the teachings doesn't seem idolatrous.
In India it is common enough to the institution of new feast days in the orthdodox and unorthodox sects around the birthdays of the living andHe he. You don't mind taking darshan of anyone so long as the luddhoos
past pontiffs, over and above the traditional holidays. But, as long as
the food is healthy...
Second, thererCOs the issue of images: statues, icons, crucifixes, and similar objects. The commandment about images is, in my view, a paired instruction rCo the problem is making images AND THEN bowing down toMy girl-friend, who used to be Catholic, had a sacred heart picture, and prayed in front of it every day. She asked my opinion and I told her
worship them. I donrCOt think itrCOs wrong to make or own images; I have several crucifixes myself. The key is that we must not worship them. For many people (me included), visual aids like icons, statues, crucifixes,
or even candles can help focus attention on God in prayer. But the focus must always be on God, never on the object.
On 30/06/2026 00:23, David Dalton wrote:
June 29 is also known as Day of the Christian Martyr.
Which particular martyr would that be?
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
I like the idea that we are in a simulation, but fail to see why that
would require belief in this "extra-temporal realm". Or, in
particular, why this "extra-temporal realm" requires conscious
existence.
Let us suppose that God has some planet which He wishes to fill with trust-worthy humans and so He runs a simulation in which different combinations of genes are tried out - given a certain amount of
computer time. Once their time is up, the code which defines them is
simply stored on a hard drive (or other medium) until the right number
of satisfactory individuals has been reached.
At that point the satisfactory definitions are loaded into permanent
bodies and let loose in this planet.
On 29/06/2026 07:36, Timreason wrote:
We had a sermon yesterday about those two guys. They didn't seem to
get on well together! It seems they were two very different people.
But I suppose it shows how God chooses all kinds of people, and
therefore some friction is likely from time to time between Christians.
There is one single instance where Paul disagreed with something Peter
was doing - and that becomes "they didn't get on together"? Perhaps your preacher ought to read 2 Peter 3:15 - or hasn't he got that far in
reading his Bible?
On 29/06/2026 10:59, John wrote:
On 28/06/2026 23:54, David Dalton wrote:
June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular,
have an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing
God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a
higher pedestal?
The thinking behind that is, I think, the notion of "The communion of
the saints". That is, the idea that all Christians can join together in prayer, including those that have 'Gone before'.
A lot depends on whether one believes in 'soul sleep' or not. My own
belief is that the departed are in an 'extra-temporal' realm. That is because I believe that we are in what might be thought of as a
'simulation', and therefore Time-Space is a framework specific to our present existence. If they are somehow 'Outside' that framework, then there's no reason to think that they might not have access to anywhere
in both Time and Space.
So, traditional Christianity holds to the notion that we can ask those Christians that have gone before, to join us in prayer. But of course,
we really only want to join with those that 'Made It' into that realm!
So traditionally the church recognised select individuals DID make it,
an obvious example being St Mary the mother of Christ.
As for me, my place has already been taken, there is already a St
Timothy and of course, a St John, come to that. (Yes, I know there can
be and are several saints sharing the same names, just my little joke!)
On 29/06/2026 14:38, Timreason wrote:
On 29/06/2026 10:59, John wrote:
On 28/06/2026 23:54, David Dalton wrote:
June 29 is Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
This is significant to me since though I am no longer Catholic
my home church/parish is that of Saints Peter and Paul
and is where I received the four Catholic sacraments
of baptism, communion, confession/penance, and
confirmation.
Why do certain sectors of Christianity, Catholicism in particular,
have an obsession with Saints?
Paul and Peter were ordinary believers, albeit from a Christian
perspective greatly used by God.-a That's it, ordinary people doing
God's work. All Christians are saints, so why do we place some on a
higher pedestal?
The thinking behind that is, I think, the notion of "The communion of
the saints". That is, the idea that all Christians can join together
in prayer, including those that have 'Gone before'.
A lot depends on whether one believes in 'soul sleep' or not. My own
belief is that the departed are in an 'extra-temporal' realm. That is
because I believe that we are in what might be thought of as a
'simulation', and therefore Time-Space is a framework specific to our
present existence. If they are somehow 'Outside' that framework, then
there's no reason to think that they might not have access to anywhere
in both Time and Space.
So, traditional Christianity holds to the notion that we can ask those
Christians that have gone before, to join us in prayer. But of course,
we really only want to join with those that 'Made It' into that realm!
So traditionally the church recognised select individuals DID make it,
an obvious example being St Mary the mother of Christ.
As for me, my place has already been taken, there is already a St
Timothy and of course, a St John, come to that. (Yes, I know there can
be and are several saints sharing the same names, just my little joke!)
My poiunt wasn't so much asking those who have passed, certain they are
in the Kingdom, but the fact they are given special status.-a Out of interest, would it be right to ask Billy Graham to join a believer in prayer, or is it just those who have been given special Saint status?
My opinion, a Christian doesn't need to ask those who have passed to
join them in their petitions to God. If my understanding of the bible is correct, you can pray directly to God.
the world in the present dispensation exists to serve the purpose, notTo a certain extent you are correct: the present dispensation is ruled
of god, but of the prince of the world, for whom the mechanisms and corruption are created. and this line of reasoning somehow serves the purpose of corruption, rather than expressing a biblical truth
So who was in the right, Paul or Peter?In my opinion, Paul. On the other hand, we only have one side of the
My understanding of it is that you may ask ANY departed saint to join
with you in prayer. You could ask Billy Graham. I doubt whether being an 'evangelical Christian' actually prevents someone from being saved - but
I think most evangelicals do not interpret 'Communion of the saints' the same way as those of traditional 'catholic' or 'orthodox' beliefs do, though. But maybe when Billy got there, he got a surprise...
My poiunt wasn't so much asking those who have passed, certain they are
in the Kingdom, but the fact they are given special status.-a Out of interest, would it be right to ask Billy Graham to join a believer in prayer, or is it just those who have been given special Saint status?
My opinion, a Christian doesn't need to ask those who have passed toExactly. On the other hand, Christians praying for one another is a
join them in their petitions to God. If my understanding of the bible is correct, you can pray directly to God.
On 01/07/2026 16:21, Timreason wrote:
My understanding of it is that you may ask ANY departed saint to join
with you in prayer. You could ask Billy Graham. I doubt whether being
an 'evangelical Christian' actually prevents someone from being saved
- but I think most evangelicals do not interpret 'Communion of the
saints' the same way as those of traditional 'catholic' or 'orthodox'
beliefs do, though. But maybe when Billy got there, he got a surprise...
*If* there is conscious life immediately after death and if the dead are aware of what happens on earth (both of which are denied by the Bible)
then yes, Billy Graham will indeed have had a surprise. He will also
find himself busier than ever rather than relaxing in the peace of heaven!
My understanding of it is that you may ask ANY departed saint to join
with you in prayer. You could ask Billy Graham. I doubt whether being an 'evangelical Christian' actually prevents someone from being saved - but
I think most evangelicals do not interpret 'Communion of the saints' the same way as those of traditional 'catholic' or 'orthodox' beliefs do, though. But maybe when Billy got there, he got a surprise...
You could ask your Aunt Bertha, or anyone who's gone before. But the
church recommends some people. Based really on the way they lived their lives, the things they did or perhaps because they died for the Faith (martyrdom). I don't personally see it as 'Special status', but rather,
a list of people whom the church has recommended on the basis that they
feel these are people who 'Made It'.
I totally agree with you (1) that you don't NEED to ask them, or anyone else, to pray with you. (2) that you can pray directly to God without
any 'intercessors'. That's called the 'priesthood of all believers', and
is AFAIK a position also held by Anglicans, including those at the
'High' end of the candle.
The bible is more or less silent in what happens after death, so we
can't take it as Gospel (pun intended) that the saved dead are
unconscious souls.
Jesus mentions the bosom of Abraham, and Paul
believed that when he died he would be with the Lord, which you dismiss
as that would be his first conscious
I'm intriqued by your last sentence, why would he be busier than ever?Passing on all the requests from those who pray to him. Just think how
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