• Re: First Christian PM since Theresa May?

    From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon May 18 11:27:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 17/05/2026 23:18, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 16/05/2026 14:05, John wrote:

    The trade unions fund the Labour party, it's how it started in the
    first place.

    Indeed, but it's a pity that voters fail to realise that the Labour
    Party only exists for the unions, especially the big unions, and if you
    are outside the big unions you should expect to be screwed.

    I think I've only been in a union once, back in 1979 when I worked for
    the Post Office for 9 months. A true labour party is still the one that
    will treat me the best, possibly with the Lib Dems. If you are really as
    hard up as you suggest, I'm surprised your politics lean towards the Conservatives. Since being an adult, I was better off in the Blair/Brown years.

    Which hasn't come in yet, but the proposal is a 1p increase in
    September, a 2p increase in December, and a further 2p in March.-a You
    have to remember that this only puts it back to what it was in 2022,
    when a 5p temporary cut was announced because of fuel rocketing (pun
    unintended) in price due to the Ukraine war, although I don't think
    that will go ahead if prices remain high.

    Even an extra 2p will make a hole in my pocket.

    In that case you're already screwed, because petrol has risen
    approximately an extra 25p a litre and diesel a staggering 50p. I take
    it you haven't been out since 28th February?


    Not true, If they were raising every other tax they can think of the
    obvious one would be income tax, yet they haven't (although to be fair
    they did moot it, with a move to reduce nat ins by the same amount)

    Taxing private schools, taxing hotel stays, the ridiculous exorbitant
    tax on new vehicles, and many others.

    There's still a lot of taxes they haven't put up, so your comment was
    untrue. The conservatives were just as bad though. Although it didn't
    really affect me, one of the perks of being a Company Director is the
    ability to take dividends instead of salary. It was -u5000 tax free when George Osborne became chancellor, and in the 14 years since I've seen it
    drop to -u500, with 1.5% extra tax on the rest. Nice Mrs Reeves has just
    put that up another 2%, which has effectively made that perk useless.
    Also if my profit was more than 50k (it isn't, I find I'm paying
    Corporation Tax at an extra 6%, higher than income tax. Capital gains
    tax, -u12,000 tax free when GO became Chancellor, slashed to -u3,300.

    Incidentally I'm as dismayed as you probably are that they haven't
    increased personal allowance, instead extending the freeze by a
    further 3 years.

    So they have increased income tax (by stealth and only so that it will affect the poorest, not the richest).

    It affects everyone, even the rich (although the affect isn't as bad for them), but remember, this was a policy introduced by Rishi Sunak, when
    he froze the personal allowance in 2021. But yes, Rachael has now frozen
    it for a further 3 years, and I agree those at the lowest end will
    suffer the most. Without those pesky unions though we'd probably be on
    -u7 an hour, a weeks holiday a year, no sick pay etc etc etc.

    Soft left, which is where I would imagine Jesus would be.-a AB's done
    some good work in Manchester, lets put it this way, it should be an
    improvement on what we have now.

    I see no reason to suspect that the left-wing can in any way be an improvement, even on the apalling mess that we now have.

    Why not? I totally agree that the Starmer/Reeves partnership has done
    little to improve the lot of the man on the street who is on or just
    above minimum wage, but with a new man at the helm who knows?



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon May 18 11:43:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 17/05/2026 23:26, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 16/05/2026 14:50, John wrote:

    Under the previous Government the rich got richer and the poor got
    poorer.

    The rich got richer, but so did the poorer, provided they worked.

    In relative terms that isn't true, and certainly not true for those who
    were unemployed.


    I'm not a tax the rich to extinction believer but I do believe in
    fairer distribution of wealth.-a If the poorer people get a fairer
    distribution they will spend that money and help the economy grow.
    The rich won't do that, because they already have what they need.

    My point is that tax does not make the poor richer, it merely penalises
    the wealth-creators.

    Under the present Government and the previous one I would most certainly agree, but wealth creation isn't about tax, and there are far more billionaires in this country now than 16 years ago. Have they all
    created wealth that makes the country better, have they heck. As you
    said, the sly ones will use (legal) loopholes to avoid tax.

    Long gone are the days of 80% tax, the maximum is 45% on earned income
    nowadays, on anyone who earns more than -u125,000 a year-a (although you
    lose -u1 of personal allowance for every -u2 earned over 100k, which is
    an effective tax rate of up to 60%)

    So at 45% instead of my notional 80%, the amount the poor will get in my highly hypothetical situation is reduced to 36p instead of 64p. That is really going to help the economy grow!

    What's needed is wealth creation at the bottom and middle, not at the
    top. Creating tax cuts for the rich doesn't benefit the poor, it never
    has. No point in having a fat cat employing 1000 on minimum wage if his obscene profits are squandered on his own life pleasures.


    [Tesco is] a success story, everyone benefits.-a But lets say we ask Mr
    Murphy to pay an extra 250,000 in tax. He's still comfortably rich,
    and that 1/4 million, when combined with taking a bit extra of all
    rich people, gives the Government additional money to invest in
    growth, which in turn allows smaller business to increase profits and
    pay better wages.

    -u250,000 is peanuts. Exactly how would that "invest in growth"? How many apprenticeships, for example, would that paltry sum provide?

    From one person yes, but multiply that the amount of other people with
    ultra high salaries.

    As a poor person yourself, I'm highly surprised that you advocate the
    rich getting richer, in general to the detriment of us poor sods.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Mon May 18 16:26:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 17/05/2026 23:29, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 16/05/2026 17:21, GB wrote:

    I vaguely remember the days when the top rate of income tax was 83%,
    and there was an unearned income surcharge of 15%, making it 98% for
    some people.

    In fact I am told that during the first World War the government played
    on patriotic feelings and at least some landed gentry were paying
    something like 105% income tax - ie. more than their income.

    Many of them were paying with their childrenrCOs' lives, too.

    Given the absolutely ginormous advantage the defenders had in WW1, it's surprising that both sides kept mounting ruinous offensives.






    The result was not a mass exodus, but very very careful tax planning.
    It distorted the way wealthy people were paid and the way they
    invested (for capital gains rather than income). Where they could,
    they kept their money offshore. And, of course, there must have been a
    fair amount of straightforward tax evasion.

    And thereby the tax was avoided and the alleged redistribution of wealth
    did not take place.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 07:01:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 18/05/2026 11:27, John wrote:

    I think I've only been in a union once, back in 1979 when I worked for
    the Post Office for 9 months. A true labour party is still the one that
    will treat me the best, possibly with the Lib Dems. If you are really as hard up as you suggest, I'm surprised your politics lean towards the Conservatives. Since being an adult, I was better off in the Blair/Brown years.

    Remind me who it was that killed off final salary pension schemes? And
    your talk of a "true labour party" reminds me of an ex-poster who was
    always on about "true Muslims". There did not seem to be any of those
    mythical creatures around these days, but he still hankered after them.

    In that case you're already screwed, because petrol has risen
    approximately an extra 25p a litre and diesel a staggering 50p. I take
    it you haven't been out since 28th February?

    I know, but I still prefer 50p to 52p!

    There's still a lot of taxes they haven't put up, so your comment was untrue.

    I don't think it is lack of desire if there is a tax or two they have
    not increased, it is a realisation that people can only be pushed so far.

    The conservatives were just as bad though.

    Bad, but I'm not sure about "just as bad".

    Without those pesky unions though we'd probably be on
    -u7 an hour, a weeks holiday a year, no sick pay etc etc etc.

    I don't deny that unions have achieved some good, though I suspect that
    the laws of supply and demand would have produced similar results. If
    you offer -u7 and no one bites, you end up offering -u8 just to get workers.

    Why not? I totally agree that the Starmer/Reeves partnership has done
    little to improve the lot of the man on the street who is on or just
    above minimum wage, but with a new man at the helm who knows?
    Certainly there is always unpredictability. I do not expect an
    improvement, but who knows?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 07:26:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 18/05/2026 11:43, John wrote:

    In relative terms that isn't true, and certainly not true for those who
    were unemployed.

    The moral being to stop being unemployed.

    Which is a horrid thing to say if you are unemployed because of
    disability or illness or if the factory has closed down, or something
    like that. (Mind you, even in the latter case, Tebbit's "on your bike"
    comment is not entirely without merit.)

    However I know of many up here who make no effort to find work and are
    content to bludge off the system. I begrudge every penny such people
    receive.

    Under the present Government and the previous one I would most certainly agree, but wealth creation isn't about tax, and there are far more billionaires in this country now than 16 years ago.-a Have they all
    created wealth that makes the country better, have they heck. As you
    said, the sly ones will use (legal) loopholes to avoid tax.

    Have you noticed how fly-tipping has increased as councils have made
    access to tips more difficult and expensive? It's a peculiarity of human nature that if you make something difficult and expensive, people will
    find a way round it. Both tax avoidance and evasion would virtually
    disappear if taxes were drastically reduced. Which isn't going to
    happen, but I'm just saying.

    What's needed is wealth creation at the bottom and middle, not at the
    top. Creating tax cuts for the rich doesn't benefit the poor, it never
    has. No point in having a fat cat employing 1000 on minimum wage if his obscene profits are squandered on his own life pleasures.

    Unless said rich person grows his own food and makes his own clothes,
    his squandering *does* benefit the less well-off as well as the economy.
    If the Beckhams throw a lavish party, where do you think they get the potatoes? And who does the washing up?

    As a poor person yourself, I'm highly surprised that you advocate the
    rich getting richer, in general to the detriment of us poor sods.
    I certainly do not what to see anyone detrimented. Both my late father
    and my sons have the midas touch. Me? I couldn't sell coal to eskimos. I
    see no reason why those who can should not be rewarded for their skills.

    One son is, I suspect, a millionaire, but to become that he has to
    employ nearly 100 people. I think he pays them properly if not
    generously, but of course none of them are millionaires. But how would
    anyone be better off if he was forced to close down his business, sack
    all his employees, and become a minimum-wage earner?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 07:32:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 18/05/2026 16:26, GB wrote:

    Many of them were paying with their childrenrCOs' lives, too.

    Indeed.

    Given the absolutely ginormous advantage the defenders had in WW1, it's surprising that both sides kept mounting ruinous offensives.

    No, not surprising. It was positively criminal. Mind you, all war is wicked.

    By the way, I wonder if you could help me, please. There is a passage in
    the Talmud, Tractate Baba Kama, which says:

    It is permitted to fish with an angle in the
    Sea of Tiberias, provided that no sail is
    spread, as this would detain boats. Our
    Rabbis taught, rCLThe tribes stipulated with
    one another at the very outset that nobody
    should spread a sail and thus detain boats.rCY

    Do you know - or can you find out - what this "detain boats" means? How
    would using sails, as opposed to rowing, "detain" a boat?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 16:20:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <10uh06r$31lib$4@dont-email.me> :
    By the way, I wonder if you could help me, please. There is a passage
    in the Talmud, Tractate Baba Kama, which says:

    It is permitted to fish with an angle in the
    Sea of Tiberias, provided that no sail is
    spread, as this would detain boats. Our
    Rabbis taught, rCLThe tribes stipulated with
    one another at the very outset that nobody
    should spread a sail and thus detain boats.rCY

    Do you know - or can you find out - what this "detain boats" means?
    How would using sails, as opposed to rowing, "detain" a boat?

    The translation on Sefaria.org uses "underwater FENCE" for what the
    soncino translates as "sails"



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 12:08:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 07:01, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 18/05/2026 11:27, John wrote:

    I think I've only been in a union once, back in 1979 when I worked for
    the Post Office for 9 months. A true labour party is still the one
    that will treat me the best, possibly with the Lib Dems. If you are
    really as hard up as you suggest, I'm surprised your politics lean
    towards the Conservatives. Since being an adult, I was better off in
    the Blair/Brown years.

    Remind me who it was that killed off final salary pension schemes? And
    your talk of a "true labour party" reminds me of an ex-poster who was
    always on about "true Muslims". There did not seem to be any of those mythical creatures around these days, but he still hankered after them.

    In that case you're already screwed, because petrol has risen
    approximately an extra 25p a litre and diesel a staggering 50p. I take
    it you haven't been out since 28th February?

    I know, but I still prefer 50p to 52p!

    There's still a lot of taxes they haven't put up, so your comment was
    untrue.

    I don't think it is lack of desire if there is a tax or two they have
    not increased, it is a realisation that people can only be pushed so far.

    The conservatives were just as bad though.

    Bad, but I'm not sure about "just as bad".

    Without those pesky unions though we'd probably be on -u7 an hour, a
    weeks holiday a year, no sick pay etc etc etc.

    I don't deny that unions have achieved some good, though I suspect that
    the laws of supply and demand would have produced similar results. If
    you offer -u7 and no one bites, you end up offering -u8 just to get workers.

    Why not? I totally agree that the Starmer/Reeves partnership has done
    little to improve the lot of the man on the street who is on or just
    above minimum wage, but with a new man at the helm who knows?
    Certainly there is always unpredictability. I do not expect an
    improvement, but who knows?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 12:24:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 07:01, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 18/05/2026 11:27, John wrote:

    I think I've only been in a union once, back in 1979 when I worked for
    the Post Office for 9 months. A true labour party is still the one
    that will treat me the best, possibly with the Lib Dems. If you are
    really as hard up as you suggest, I'm surprised your politics lean
    towards the Conservatives. Since being an adult, I was better off in
    the Blair/Brown years.

    Remind me who it was that killed off final salary pension schemes? And
    your talk of a "true labour party" reminds me of an ex-poster who was
    always on about "true Muslims". There did not seem to be any of those mythical creatures around these days, but he still hankered after them.

    Whilst not claiming to know too much about financial salary pension
    schemes, I do know they were becoming increasingly unaffordable.

    What's your definition of a true Labour party?

    Without those pesky unions though we'd probably be on -u7 an hour, a
    weeks holiday a year, no sick pay etc etc etc.

    I don't deny that unions have achieved some good, though I suspect that
    the laws of supply and demand would have produced similar results. If
    you offer -u7 and no one bites, you end up offering -u8 just to get workers.

    I experienced that supply and demand. Tax drivers received about -u2 an
    hour at the time minimum wage came in, security guards the same. When I started taxi driving 10 years before it was -u1.20--u1.50 The minimum
    wage was -u3.60

    Why not? I totally agree that the Starmer/Reeves partnership has done
    little to improve the lot of the man on the street who is on or just
    above minimum wage, but with a new man at the helm who knows?

    Certainly there is always unpredictability. I do not expect an
    improvement, but who knows?

    I can't say for certain I'll be proved right, but I certainly hope so.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 12:44:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 07:26, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 18/05/2026 11:43, John wrote:

    In relative terms that isn't true, and certainly not true for those
    who were unemployed.

    The moral being to stop being unemployed.

    Which is a horrid thing to say if you are unemployed because of
    disability or illness or if the factory has closed down, or something
    like that. (Mind you, even in the latter case, Tebbit's "on your bike" comment is not entirely without merit.)

    However I know of many up here who make no effort to find work and are content to bludge off the system. I begrudge every penny such people receive.

    Under the present Government and the previous one I would most
    certainly agree, but wealth creation isn't about tax, and there are
    far more billionaires in this country now than 16 years ago.-a Have
    they all created wealth that makes the country better, have they heck.
    As you said, the sly ones will use (legal) loopholes to avoid tax.

    If I was unemployed without any illnesses I would receive -u146 a week
    and my rent and rates paid (up to the local housing allowance rate if
    the rent is more)

    Round here the rents are approximately -u950 for a 2 bed flat, which is
    what we live in) I'm extremely fortunate that I live in a council flat
    so my rent is much lower, but if it wasn't thats an extra -u100 a week
    I'd have to find.

    Even on a full -u146 a week I'd struggle.

    Have you noticed how fly-tipping has increased as councils have made
    access to tips more difficult and expensive? It's a peculiarity of human nature that if you make something difficult and expensive, people will
    find a way round it. Both tax avoidance and evasion would virtually disappear if taxes were drastically reduced. Which isn't going to
    happen, but I'm just saying.

    Only thing extra we have to pay at our tip is rubble. If you're
    claiming tax avoidance or evasion would disapear if taxes were lower
    then I have a bridge to sell if you're interested. Those most able to
    pay are the worst at avoiding tax, generally speaking.

    What's needed is wealth creation at the bottom and middle, not at the
    top. Creating tax cuts for the rich doesn't benefit the poor, it never
    has. No point in having a fat cat employing 1000 on minimum wage if
    his obscene profits are squandered on his own life pleasures.

    Unless said rich person grows his own food and makes his own clothes,
    his squandering *does* benefit the less well-off as well as the economy.
    If the Beckhams throw a lavish party, where do you think they get the potatoes? And who does the washing up?

    No relatively speaking. If someone on 30k a year has more money, it will
    be spent directly in the local economy. If that money remains with the multi-millionares/billionaires it doesn't have the same affect.

    As a poor person yourself, I'm highly surprised that you advocate the
    rich getting richer, in general to the detriment of us poor sods.
    I certainly do not what to see anyone detrimented. Both my late father
    and my sons have the midas touch. Me? I couldn't sell coal to eskimos. I
    see no reason why those who can should not be rewarded for their skills.

    One son is, I suspect, a millionaire, but to become that he has to
    employ nearly 100 people. I think he pays them properly if not
    generously, but of course none of them are millionaires. But how would anyone be better off if he was forced to close down his business, sack
    all his employees, and become a minimum-wage earner?

    Then your son is one of the good guys, and I have absolutely no problem
    with that. I am speaking in general, and I would suggest your son is
    not the norm

    I think the best example of what I'm trying to convey is the Quakers.
    Cadbury, Fry etc, despite being rich, ploughed their profits back into
    the community (Bournville a case in point).



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 21:23:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 12:24, John wrote:

    Whilst not claiming to know too much about financial salary pension
    schemes, I do know they were becoming increasingly unaffordable.

    Final salary, not financial salary. Basically your pension was based on
    your final salary. If you were in well with your employer, you were
    given a raise or a promotion three months before you retired.

    What's your definition of a true Labour party?

    I've no idea. You were the one to introduce the phrase.

    I experienced that supply and demand. Tax drivers received about -u2 an
    hour at the time minimum wage came in, security guards the same.-a When I started taxi driving 10 years before it was -u1.20--u1.50-a The minimum
    wage was -u3.60

    But taxi drivers were self-employed, were they not?

    I can't say for certain I'll be proved right, but I certainly hope so.
    We all hope so.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 21:33:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 12:44, John wrote:

    Even on a full -u146 a week I'd struggle.

    Which is an incentive to find work or stay in work.

    Only thing extra we have to pay at our tip is rubble.

    Count yourself lucky. Here there is a long list of things you have to
    pay for, you are only allowed six trips in an 8 week period, you have to
    make an appointment before being allowed on, you pay if you use a
    trailer, etc etc.

    If you're
    claiming tax avoidance or evasion would disapear if taxes were lower
    then I have a bridge to sell if you're interested. Those most able to
    pay are the worst at avoiding tax, generally speaking.

    No, I don't think it would disappear, anymore than the most generous
    tipping policy would entirely obviate fly-tipping, but the incentive
    would be lower. If you can save -u1,000 by employing a clever accountant
    who charges -u1,200, the figures wouldn't add up.

    No relatively speaking. If someone on 30k a year has more money, it will
    be spent directly in the local economy.-a If that money remains with the multi-millionares/billionaires it doesn't have the same affect.

    But it doesn't remain with the millionaires. They have to buy potatoes,
    just as much as you do - except that they buy the expensive ones and
    hire a chef to cook them and a butler to serve them. I'm sure they do
    have substantial savings, but more likely they have big investments -
    which also contribute to the economy.

    Then your son is one of the good guys, and I have absolutely no problem
    with that.-a I am speaking in general, and I would suggest your son is
    not the norm

    The norm is that wealthy businessmen employ people. If, like my son, the
    work is specialised, they have to pay more to employ skilled people. If
    the work requires no particular skills the pay is, of course, lower.

    I think the best example of what I'm trying to convey is the Quakers. Cadbury, Fry etc, despite being rich, ploughed their profits back into
    the community (Bournville a case in point).

    Good for them.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue May 19 21:34:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 11:50, Madhu wrote:

    The translation on Sefaria.org uses "underwater FENCE" for what the
    soncino translates as "sails"
    Thanks, but that makes equally little sense. Who builds an underwater fence?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Wed May 20 07:22:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <10uihgt$3h698$4@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Tue, 19 May 2026 21:34:38 +0100:
    On 19/05/2026 11:50, Madhu wrote:
    The translation on Sefaria.org uses "underwater FENCE" for what the
    soncino translates as "sails"
    Thanks, but that makes equally little sense. Who builds an underwater fence?

    Without access to Hebrew/Aramic we are at a disadvantage.

    This section of tract 81 deals with access to private property. the
    footnote in 81b points to the Tosfeta Baba Kama VII. there is an outline/summary online here

    https://dafyomi.co.il/bkama/tosfos/bk-ts-081.htm

    The word `Kela' here is called a lattice-work fence, the restriction is
    that even the owner cannot build it to restrict access, even on on
    water. When considering Fishing Rights on the Sea of Tiberias (which is
    given to the Naphtali) the tosfeta includes the Baraita which cites an agreement among tribes

    "Clarification (cont.): As does 'Provided one does not spread a
    'Kela' (a lattice-work fence), which applies even to the owner
    r[...]
    Support: As the Beraisa (cited later, on Amud Beis) 'The
    tribes stipulated with one another that they would not spread a
    Kela, though one may fish with various kinds of nets' - which
    reference to the owner, to whom the sea belongs."



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed May 20 04:55:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 20/05/2026 02:52, Madhu wrote:

    The word `Kela' here is called a lattice-work fence, the restriction is
    that even the owner cannot build it to restrict access, even on on
    water. When considering Fishing Rights on the Sea of Tiberias (which is
    given to the Naphtali) the tosfeta includes the Baraita which cites an agreement among tribes

    Thanks. I hadn't considered a fish trap, which I suppose makes a bit
    more sense, though it would have to be a rather substantial trap to
    seriously incommode shipping on the Lake of Galilee.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed May 20 09:29:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 21:23, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 19/05/2026 12:24, John wrote:

    Whilst not claiming to know too much about financial salary pension
    schemes, I do know they were becoming increasingly unaffordable.

    Final salary, not financial salary. Basically your pension was based on
    your final salary. If you were in well with your employer, you were
    given a raise or a promotion three months before you retired.

    Sorry, I meant final.

    What's your definition of a true Labour party?

    I've no idea. You were the one to introduce the phrase.

    Why scoff at it if you don't know?

    I experienced that supply and demand. Tax drivers received about -u2 an
    hour at the time minimum wage came in, security guards the same.-a When
    I started taxi driving 10 years before it was -u1.20--u1.50-a The minimum >> wage was -u3.60

    But taxi drivers were self-employed, were they not?

    Not always. I was for the most part, but I was employed to begin with.
    Years later I ran a taxi firm where some of the drivers were employed,
    some self employed with their own car.

    I can't say for certain I'll be proved right, but I certainly hope so.
    We all hope so.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed May 20 21:05:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 20/05/2026 09:29, John wrote:

    Why scoff at it if you don't know?

    I don't need to have a definnition to know that claims about "true"
    whatever are usually a way to evade evidence of misbehaviour. Muslim terrorists are "not true Muslims" - though others claim that terrorists
    are only "true Muslims".

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Wed May 20 21:27:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/05/2026 07:32, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 18/05/2026 16:26, GB wrote:

    Many of them were paying with their childrenrCOs' lives, too.

    Indeed.

    Given the absolutely ginormous advantage the defenders had in WW1,
    it's surprising that both sides kept mounting ruinous offensives.

    No, not surprising. It was positively criminal. Mind you, all war is
    wicked.

    By the way, I wonder if you could help me, please. There is a passage in
    the Talmud, Tractate Baba Kama, which says:

    It is permitted to fish with an angle in the
    Sea of Tiberias, provided that no sail is
    spread, as this would detain boats. Our
    Rabbis taught, rCLThe tribes stipulated with
    one another at the very outset that nobody
    should spread a sail and thus detain boats.rCY

    Do you know - or can you find out - what this "detain boats" means? How would using sails, as opposed to rowing, "detain" a boat?


    This is well beyond my level of knowledge, so I'd be depending on a translation, too.

    One of the issues you face is that you're looking at the detailed bylaws
    that governed fishing 2000 years ago, and to understand the bylaws you
    first need to understand in a bit of detail how people fished in those days.

    Add in some strange translation. To fish with an angle is presumably to
    fish with a rod and line?

    Spreading a sail may mean spreading a horizontal net between two boats?







    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down







    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Thu May 21 12:28:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 20/05/2026 21:27, GB wrote:
    On 19/05/2026 07:32, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 18/05/2026 16:26, GB wrote:

    Many of them were paying with their childrenrCOs' lives, too.

    Indeed.

    Given the absolutely ginormous advantage the defenders had in WW1,
    it's surprising that both sides kept mounting ruinous offensives.

    No, not surprising. It was positively criminal. Mind you, all war is
    wicked.

    By the way, I wonder if you could help me, please. There is a passage
    in the Talmud, Tractate Baba Kama, which says:

    It is permitted to fish with an angle in the
    Sea of Tiberias, provided that no sail is
    spread, as this would detain boats. Our
    Rabbis taught, rCLThe tribes stipulated with
    one another at the very outset that nobody
    should spread a sail and thus detain boats.rCY

    Do you know - or can you find out - what this "detain boats" means?
    How would using sails, as opposed to rowing, "detain" a boat?


    This is well beyond my level of knowledge, so I'd be depending on a translation, too.

    One of the issues you face is that you're looking at the detailed bylaws that governed fishing 2000 years ago, and to understand the bylaws you
    first need to understand in a bit of detail how people fished in those
    days.

    Add in some strange translation. To fish with an angle is presumably to
    fish with a rod and line?

    Spreading a sail may mean spreading a horizontal net between two boats?


    I just wanted to add that, however puzzling we find this passage at the moment, I'm quite sure that it meant perfect sense at the time to the
    people it was aimed at.










    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down











    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu May 21 12:40:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 21/05/2026 12:28, GB wrote:

    I just wanted to add that, however puzzling we find this passage at the moment, I'm quite sure that it meant perfect sense at the time to the
    people it was aimed at.

    That is a level of faith I have not yet achieved.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu May 21 12:45:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 20/05/2026 21:27, GB wrote:

    This is well beyond my level of knowledge, so I'd be depending on a translation, too.

    I thought you might have a tame rabbi up your sleeve?

    One of the issues you face is that you're looking at the detailed bylaws that governed fishing 2000 years ago, and to understand the bylaws you
    first need to understand in a bit of detail how people fished in those
    days.

    We know from the gospel accounts that they fished at night and with
    nets. They still fish at night in Galilee; I am told that it is because
    the water is so clear the fish would see and evade the nets. The
    explanation doesn't ring entirely true, as the preferred method of
    fishing is with a very bright light over the stern of the boat which, apparently, attracts the fish into the net. I suppose a burning torch (a
    stick of wood set on fire) would have a similar effect?

    Add in some strange translation. To fish with an angle is presumably to
    fish with a rod and line?

    I presume so - the origin of the term "angler".

    Spreading a sail may mean spreading a horizontal net between two boats?
    An ingenious suggestion but ruled out, I think, by the gospel
    description of fishing with nets.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Thu May 21 16:15:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 21/05/2026 12:40, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 21/05/2026 12:28, GB wrote:

    I just wanted to add that, however puzzling we find this passage at
    the moment, I'm quite sure that it meant perfect sense at the time to
    the people it was aimed at.

    That is a level of faith I have not yet achieved.

    :)

    The point is in the extract you quoted: "The tribes stipulated with
    one another ...".

    So, this was a horse trade between the different tribes about competing interests in the Sea of Galilee. And, the resulting agreement must have
    meant something intelligible to the people who agreed it.

    I think it all makes sense if you think of the 'sails' as large nets
    spread across the lake by two boats quite far apart.

    The fact that fishing with small nets was allowed in Gospel times
    doesn't really detract from that.

    Besides that, the extract you quoted is probably from much earlier. Does
    "from the outset" imply 1300 BC?



    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu May 21 21:50:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 21/05/2026 16:15, GB wrote:

    The point is in the extract you quoted: "The tribes stipulated with
    one another ...".

    At best one can say that there was a tradition that "the tribes
    stipulated". A more cynical view is that the authors of the Talmud hoped
    or imagined that the tribes were all involved.

    So, this was a horse trade between the different tribes about competing interests in the Sea of Galilee. And, the resulting agreement must have meant something intelligible to the people who agreed it.

    If indeed there was such an agreement.

    I think it all makes sense if you think of the 'sails' as large nets
    spread across the lake by two boats quite far apart.

    Such large nets might be possible using nylon ropes; I doubt that
    ancient rope-making skills were up to the job, nor that the fishermen of
    the time could have handled such large nets (particularly when wet)
    without modern winches.

    The fact that fishing with small nets was allowed in Gospel times
    doesn't really detract from that.

    But it is eminently more practical!

    Besides that, the extract you quoted is probably from much earlier. Does "from the outset" imply 1300 BC?

    It implies nothing more than that the authors of the Talmud believed
    that to be true. It is not evidence that it was actually true.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 01:16:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 20/05/2026 21:05, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 20/05/2026 09:29, John wrote:

    Why scoff at it if you don't know?

    I don't need to have a definnition to know that claims about "true"
    whatever are usually a way to evade evidence of misbehaviour. Muslim terrorists are "not true Muslims" - though others claim that terrorists
    are only "true Muslims".

    In which case there's no such thing as a true Christian either, thanks
    for clearing that up!





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 07:46:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 01:16, John wrote:

    In which case there's no such thing as a true Christian either, thanks
    for clearing that up!
    There certainly are true Christians, just as there are true Muslims
    (though exactly what a true Muslim is does not seem clear). It is when
    the "not true xxxx" line is rolled out to try to excuse insitutional bad behaviour that I object to it.

    So, for example, by insisting on priestly celibacy the Catholic church
    sets its clergy up for sexual problems and it is not good enogh to blame
    a few individuals for not being "true Christians" when the problem is in
    the celibacy.

    Same with Muslims, who preach jihad in their mosques and then inspire a
    few radical individuals to actually carry it out with bombs. It's no
    good saying they are "not true Muslims" when the problem lies in Islam
    itself!

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 11:22:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 07:46, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 22/05/2026 01:16, John wrote:

    In which case there's no such thing as a true Christian either, thanks
    for clearing that up!


    There certainly are true Christians, just as there are true Muslims
    (though exactly what a true Muslim is does not seem clear). It is when
    the "not true xxxx" line is rolled out to try to excuse insitutional bad behaviour that I object to it.

    So, for example, by insisting on priestly celibacy the Catholic church
    sets its clergy up for sexual problems and it is not good enogh to blame
    a few individuals for not being "true Christians" when the problem is in
    the celibacy.

    I agree with you there.


    Same with Muslims, who preach jihad in their mosques and then inspire a
    few radical individuals to actually carry it out with bombs. It's no
    good saying they are "not true Muslims" when the problem lies in Islam itself

    I probably misunderstood what you were saying, but doesn't the same
    argument apply to Christians as well, or is that more defined?





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 18:22:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * John <10upap9$1de8u$1@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Fri, 22 May 2026 11:22:32 +0100:
    On 22/05/2026 07:46, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    There certainly are true Christians, just as there are true Muslims
    (though exactly what a true Muslim is does not seem clear). It is
    when the "not true xxxx" line is rolled out to try to excuse
    insitutional bad behaviour that I object to it.
    So, for example, by insisting on priestly celibacy the Catholic
    church sets its clergy up for sexual problems and it is not good
    enogh to blame a few individuals for not being "true Christians"
    when the problem is in the celibacy.
    I agree with you there.
    Same with Muslims, who preach jihad in their mosques and then
    inspire a few radical individuals to actually carry it out with
    bombs. It's no good saying they are "not true Muslims" when the
    problem lies in Islam itself
    I probably misunderstood what you were saying, but doesn't the same
    argument apply to Christians as well, or is that more defined?

    I don't think the last point is a fair or honest comparison: it states
    the defect isn't in christianity, but in the practice of christianity ("celibacy"), but analogously the defect is in unambiguously with islam.

    The issues Ken has with "islam" are the reusult of the situation solely
    through the lens solely of the western banking propaganda. A legitimate response to the actions of the western banking on those who happen to be muslims is then interpreted as a "defect of Islam". Rather than seeing
    this as "God legitimately raising up the muslims to deal with the
    defects of the iniquities of western banking, we get to hear the
    repeated propaganda.

    I'm now come to chapter 22 of Frankopan's The Silk Roads, (url posted
    in my message on ukrc "Re: Religious vandalism" on 2026-04-22)

    I'd suggest Ken read the few chapters before this dealing with the role
    of britain and the war and oil banking industry in the middle east in
    the 20th century, and see where the source of the antagonim (that he has
    faced in his travels in Iran, Iraq etc.) comes from



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 16:21:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 21/05/2026 21:50, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 21/05/2026 16:15, GB wrote:

    The point is in the extract you quoted: "The tribes stipulated with
    one another ...".

    At best one can say that there was a tradition that "the tribes
    stipulated". A more cynical view is that the authors of the Talmud hoped
    or imagined that the tribes were all involved.

    So, this was a horse trade between the different tribes about
    competing interests in the Sea of Galilee. And, the resulting
    agreement must have meant something intelligible to the people who
    agreed it.

    If indeed there was such an agreement.

    I think it all makes sense if you think of the 'sails' as large nets
    spread across the lake by two boats quite far apart.

    Such large nets might be possible using nylon ropes; I doubt that
    ancient rope-making skills were up to the job, nor that the fishermen of
    the time could have handled such large nets (particularly when wet)
    without modern winches.

    Modern drift nets are miles long apparently, but even if the 1000 BC equivalent was 10m long it might have been an impediment to passing boats.

    I fear that to understand this passage you need a detailed understanding
    of fishing techniques at the time. An interesting challenge for you when
    you get the time!



    The fact that fishing with small nets was allowed in Gospel times
    doesn't really detract from that.

    But it is eminently more practical!

    Besides that, the extract you quoted is probably from much earlier.
    Does "from the outset" imply 1300 BC?

    It implies nothing more than that the authors of the Talmud believed
    that to be true. It is not evidence that it was actually true.

    There's a shortage of independent evidence from biblical times.



    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 20:23:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 11:22, John wrote:

    I probably misunderstood what you were saying, but doesn't the same
    argument apply to Christians as well, or is that more defined?

    If you can find a command in the New Testament to got to war with
    unbelievers and exterminate them, you might have a point.

    God bless
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 20:30:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 13:52, Madhu wrote:

    I don't think the last point is a fair or honest comparison: it states
    the defect isn't in christianity, but in the practice of christianity ("celibacy"), but analogously the defect is in unambiguously with islam.

    Christian teaching - and Jewish teaching before it - is unambiguously in favour of marriage. In fact, there is a warning against those who would devalue marriage. So the celibacy heresy of the Catholic church goes completely contrary to Christianity's sacred book.

    The same cannot be said about Islam and jihad, which is taught in the
    Qur'an.

    The issues Ken has with "islam" are the reusult of the situation solely through the lens solely of the western banking propaganda.

    Strangely, in all the time I have been banking with Lloyds, I have never
    seen anything in the bank either for or against Islam.

    I'd suggest Ken read the few chapters before this dealing with the role
    of britain and the war and oil banking industry in the middle east in
    the 20th century, and see where the source of the antagonim (that he has faced in his travels in Iran, Iraq etc.) comes from

    I didn't know that there was an industry set up to bank oil? Probably a
    good idea - store oil away and hopefully earn interest on it as it self-multiplies.

    Yes, I know about Britain and Iran. A bit ironic that the British
    government was busy nationalising everything in sight and trampling on
    the rights of private owners, but got all hoity-toity when the Iranians
    did the same with their oil industry!

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri May 22 20:36:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 16:21, GB wrote:

    I fear that to understand this passage you need a detailed understanding
    of fishing techniques at the time. An interesting challenge for you when
    you get the time!

    That would doubtless be an interesting study. Nothing that I have read (Josephus) or seen (reliefs showing fishing) leads me to think that nets strung between boats were common. The Biblical accounts seem to only
    refer to a single boat and a single net and when the catch was so heavy
    that one boat couldn't contain it, they had to call and summon a second
    boat - but no hint that the second boat was involved in spreading the
    first net.

    There's a shortage of independent evidence from biblical times.

    I quite agree. But the little we have does not support the suggestion of
    nets so long that they were strung between two boats. Rope strong enough
    to support and form such a net would, when wet, be far too heavy for
    unaided muscle power to handle.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Sat May 23 10:05:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 22/05/2026 20:36, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 22/05/2026 16:21, GB wrote:

    I fear that to understand this passage you need a detailed
    understanding of fishing techniques at the time. An interesting
    challenge for you when you get the time!

    That would doubtless be an interesting study. Nothing that I have read (Josephus) or seen (reliefs showing fishing) leads me to think that nets strung between boats were common. The Biblical accounts seem to only
    refer to a single boat and a single net and when the catch was so heavy
    that one boat couldn't contain it, they had to call and summon a second
    boat - but no hint that the second boat was involved in spreading the
    first net.

    Possibly, because it was banned? :)



    There's a shortage of independent evidence from biblical times.

    I quite agree. But the little we have does not support the suggestion of nets so long that they were strung between two boats. Rope strong enough
    to support and form such a net would, when wet, be far too heavy for
    unaided muscle power to handle.

    Bear in mind that the weight of the water content of the rope would be supported by the water it is sitting in. (Archimedes principle.) So, I
    think you're overestimating the practical difficulties.



    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon May 25 05:40:47 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 23/05/2026 10:05, GB wrote:

    Possibly, because it was banned? :)

    Yes, that did occur to me.

    Bear in mind that the weight of the water content of the rope would be supported by the water it is sitting in. (Archimedes principle.) So, I
    think you're overestimating the practical difficulties.

    Indeed - but the whole point of a net is that you haul it in at some
    point to get at the fish caught in it. So while the water might keep the natural-fibre rope floating, as soon as you try lifting it you are in
    for some serious back strain.

    Mind you, I am still left wondering why the translators of my copy of
    the Talmud chose the word "sails". It's an expensively produced edition,
    so I presume they didn't just pick a couple of boy scouts during
    bob-a-job week to do the translating.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Mon Aug 3 14:44:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <10uqash$1npaa$2@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Fri, 22 May 2026 20:30:27 +0100:

    On 22/05/2026 13:52, Madhu wrote:

    I don't think the last point is a fair or honest comparison: it states
    the defect isn't in christianity, but in the practice of christianity
    ("celibacy"), but analogously the defect is in unambiguously with islam.

    Christian teaching - and Jewish teaching before it - is unambiguously
    in favour of marriage. In fact, there is a warning against those who
    would devalue marriage. So the celibacy heresy of the Catholic church
    goes completely contrary to Christianity's sacred book.

    The same cannot be said about Islam and jihad, which is taught in the
    Qur'an.

    The issues Ken has with "islam" are the reusult of the situation solely
    through the lens solely of the western banking propaganda.

    Strangely, in all the time I have been banking with Lloyds, I have
    never seen anything in the bank either for or against Islam.

    I'd suggest Ken read the few chapters before this dealing with the role
    of britain and the war and oil banking industry in the middle east in
    the 20th century, and see where the source of the antagonim (that he has
    faced in his travels in Iran, Iraq etc.) comes from

    I didn't know that there was an industry set up to bank oil? Probably
    a good idea - store oil away and hopefully earn interest on it as it self-multiplies.

    Yes, I know about Britain and Iran. A bit ironic that the British
    government was busy nationalising everything in sight and trampling on
    the rights of private owners, but got all hoity-toity when the
    Iranians did the same with their oil industry!

    Well, and now the UK is resorting to high piracy in the seas and also privatising "Russian" Steel Companies, but on the remoulding-of-islam
    for the 20th-century-oil-and-war-banking-agenda note I saw this opinion
    in yesterday's paper which speaks through a "colonial" lens

    https://www.newindianexpress.com/magazine/2026/Aug/02/the-islamic-wound-that-does-not-heal

    "Islam has faced civilisational catastrophe twice. Once at the
    hands of the Mongols in the 13th century and the next at the
    hands of the Europeans in the 19th century. The first time it
    responded by becoming more open. The second time it responded by
    becoming more closed. The difference came not from the scale of
    the defeat but in what the conqueror said while conquering...."
    [thesis follows]

    Devdutt Pattnaik 2026-08-02

    If you get a chance to read the article, I'd appreciate your assesemnt
    of the author's claim.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue Aug 4 07:31:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 03/08/2026 10:14, Madhu wrote:

    If you get a chance to read the article, I'd appreciate your assesemnt
    of the author's claim.
    It's an interesting thesis. Of course, the problem is that Islam's
    response to European superiority was to retreat to an imagined original
    Muslim religion instead of abandoning the false religion entirely and
    adopting Christianity.

    Islam, shorn of its saints and djinn and shrines, is still a
    misogynistic, superstitious collection of Arab traditions that may have
    passed muster in AD 700 but is totally unfit for the modern world. When
    half the work-force is denied education, the society will remain
    impoverished. When the only response to disagreement is violence,
    society can never be stable.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Wed Aug 5 06:07:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <114s0v6$1tslm$2@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Tue, 4 Aug 2026 07:31:03 +0100:
    It's an interesting thesis. Of course, the problem is that Islam's
    response to European superiority was to retreat to an imagined
    original Muslim religion instead of abandoning the false religion
    entirely and adopting Christianity.

    Islam, shorn of its saints and djinn and shrines, is still a
    misogynistic, superstitious collection of Arab traditions that may
    have passed muster in AD 700 but is totally unfit for the modern
    world.

    If you are basing this on the text rather than the people, the OT is no
    less violent, and the text highlights the same principles and
    whitewashes everything else. As the article indicated, in practice,
    despite the principles you highlight in the core text, was there was no
    dearth of science and arts and vast periods of peace and proseperity
    between the conquests. (this is in contrast to the forever-wars we see
    in our century which are essential to sustain the war and oil banking) I
    think your spin is only valid under a western regime, i.e. after the independent islamic rule has been replaced in colonial power setting,
    and the extemism and teror cells are financed by western banking ops.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed Aug 5 05:55:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 05/08/2026 01:37, Madhu wrote:

    If you are basing this on the text rather than the people, the OT is no
    less violent, and the text highlights the same principles and
    whitewashes everything else.

    The Old Testament does not force women to cover their faces or stay
    inside their homes or prevent them being educated. If, by "violence" you
    mean the use of the death penalty, then certainly the Old Testament was violent, but you don't find individuals being encouraged to kill those
    who transgress. In fact the "cities of refuge" was a clear attempt to
    prevent individual killings.

    As the article indicated, in practice,
    despite the principles you highlight in the core text, was there was no dearth of science and arts and vast periods of peace and proseperity
    between the conquests.

    Yes, after the Muslims conquored somewhere, they profited from the
    educated elite, but within a short time, after that elite had died out,
    the Muslims sank back into ignorance and poverty, which is the
    inevitable outcome of their religion.

    "If they repeat what is in the Qur'an, they are superfluous. If they do
    not they are blasphemous. In either case, burn them." Supposedly said by
    the Muslim conqueror of Egypt about the books in the Alexandrian
    library. Whether he did actually say those words is disputed, but the
    attitude behind them was - and is - real. Or have you forgotten the
    burning of priceless books in Mosul after Daesh captured the place?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Wed Aug 5 21:28:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <114ufnd$2mqdd$1@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Wed, 5 Aug 2026 05:55:08 +0100:

    On 05/08/2026 01:37, Madhu wrote:
    If you are basing this on the text rather than the people, the OT is no
    less violent, and the text highlights the same principles and
    whitewashes everything else.
    The Old Testament does not force women to cover their faces or stay
    inside their homes or prevent them being educated. If, by "violence"

    This does not address my point, these are your standard "dem" talking
    points that you repeat but they do not address the real issue you are
    raising, but I'll pass

    you mean the use of the death penalty, then certainly the Old
    Testament was violent, but you don't find individuals being encouraged
    to kill those who transgress. In fact the "cities of refuge" was a
    clear attempt to prevent individual killings.

    As the article indicated, in practice, despite the principles you
    highlight in the core text, was there was no dearth of science and
    arts and vast periods of peace and proseperity between the conquests.

    Yes, after the Muslims conquored somewhere, they profited from the
    educated elite, but within a short time, after that elite had died
    out, the Muslims sank back into ignorance and poverty, which is the inevitable outcome of their religion.

    I don't see any basis for your claim. The muslims sank into ignorance
    and poverty _after_ they were defeated and their economy became part of
    the western banking economy, which war and oil banking narrative depends
    on this role into which they have been pushed into, again _after_ being defeated by the West. This follows from the thesis of the article. Your arguments against Islam are just Israeli Propaganda points at this
    point, and not from a consideration of scripture.












    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed Aug 5 20:11:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 05/08/2026 16:58, Madhu wrote:

    I don't see any basis for your claim. The muslims sank into ignorance
    and poverty _after_ they were defeated and their economy became part of
    the western banking economy

    What a load of rubbish! Have you read travellers' accounts of Muslim
    countries such as Syria and Iraq or north Africa back in the 18th and
    19th centuries - long before there was a western banking economy. You
    have banks on the brain while displaying vast ignorance about the real
    world.

    Your
    arguments against Islam are just Israeli Propaganda points at this
    point, and not from a consideration of scripture.
    Surprisingly, Scripture has very little to say about Muhammad or his
    religion, which started 500 years after the canon of Scripture closed.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Thu Aug 6 07:19:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <11501sg$38n2k$1@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Wed, 5 Aug 2026 20:11:13 +0100:

    Surprisingly, Scripture has very little to say about Muhammad or his religion, which started 500 years after the canon of Scripture closed.

    I think
    1. We should interpret and witness to our present condition on the basis
    of scripture and not on the basis of the dominant propaganda
    2. You were handling "islamic scripture" in a non-proprietary way
    (where "witness to" and "non-proprietary" are non standard usage)



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu Aug 6 05:40:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 06/08/2026 02:49, Madhu wrote:

    I think
    1. We should interpret and witness to our present condition on the basis
    of scripture and not on the basis of the dominant propaganda

    Certainly the Bible will influence our views of the world, but the
    Bible cannot contradict history. You can quote as many verses as you
    like, but you will not alter the fact that Muslim countries are poor.

    2. You were handling "islamic scripture" in a non-proprietary way
    (where "witness to" and "non-proprietary" are non standard usage)
    So in other words, no one has any idea what you are trying to say
    because you are giving words your own meanings.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to uk.religion.christian on Thu Aug 6 11:30:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    * "Kendall K. Down" <115137l$3i86o$1@dont-email.me> :
    Wrote on Thu, 6 Aug 2026 05:40:23 +0100:

    2. You were handling "islamic scripture" in a non-proprietary way
    (where "witness to" and "non-proprietary" are non standard usage)
    So in other words, no one has any idea what you are trying to say
    because you are giving words your own meanings.

    No, that was to cover the possibility of you dismissing what I wrote
    without trying to understand it. (c.f. your response)
    But as long as my meaning was clear





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu Aug 6 19:51:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 06/08/2026 07:00, Madhu wrote:

    No, that was to cover the possibility of you dismissing what I wrote
    without trying to understand it. (c.f. your response)
    But as long as my meaning was clear
    No, your meaning was not at all clear.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Stuart@Spambin@argonet.co.uk to uk.religion.christian on Fri Aug 7 09:00:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    In article <11501sg$38n2k$1@dont-email.me>,
    Kendall K. Down <kendallkdown@googlemail.com> wrote:
    Your
    arguments against Islam are just Israeli Propaganda points at this
    point, and not from a consideration of scripture.
    Surprisingly, Scripture has very little to say about Muhammad or his religion, which started 500 years after the canon of Scripture closed.

    Not specifically, no, but it does say "There will come many false prophets"
    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Stuart@Spambin@argonet.co.uk to uk.religion.christian on Fri Aug 7 09:00:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    In article <1152l3s$2thb$1@dont-email.me>,
    Kendall K. Down <kendallkdown@googlemail.com> wrote:
    On 06/08/2026 07:00, Madhu wrote:

    No, that was to cover the possibility of you dismissing what I wrote without trying to understand it. (c.f. your response)
    But as long as my meaning was clear
    No, your meaning was not at all clear.

    Indeed, it was not.
    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Aug 9 00:01:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 05/08/2026 05:55, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 05/08/2026 01:37, Madhu wrote:

    If you are basing this on the text rather than the people, the OT is no
    less violent, and the text highlights the same principles and
    whitewashes everything else.

    The Old Testament does not force women to cover their faces or stay
    inside their homes or prevent them being educated. If, by "violence" you mean the use of the death penalty, then certainly the Old Testament was violent, but you don't find individuals being encouraged to kill those
    who transgress. In fact the "cities of refuge" was a clear attempt to prevent individual killings.

    Christian women did cover their hair, as do most Muslim women. The
    burka is worn by very few and, correct me if I'm wrong, more to do with culture than any Islamic text. Women were considered property so their
    place *was* in the home and "learning" was frowned upon, an example of
    which was Martha's attitude to Mary.

    Other than honour killings (I may be wrong but I don't think it is based
    on the Qur'an) I don't know any other "offence" that individuals will
    kill. The death penalty is usually left to the state rulers to carry out.

    I see Islam as more based on OT principles.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Aug 9 01:20:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 14/05/2026 14:11, John wrote:
    With Wes Streeting, who is a practicing Christian, resigning as Health Secretary and a leadership battle more than likely, could he be our next
    PM?



    He's done an excellent job as Health Secretary, although I personally
    would like Labour to go a little bit more to the left, helping the
    ordinary man (and woman) in the street to have a better quality of life.

    Either Andy Burnham or Angela Rayner would get my vote.

    As we know Andy Burnham became PM, but he does become the first
    Christian since TM anyway, as he is a devout Catholic.



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Aug 9 06:26:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 09/08/2026 01:20, John wrote:

    As we know Andy Burnham became PM, but he does become the first
    Christian since TM anyway, as he is a devout Catholic.
    So, I believe, are most Mafioso.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Aug 9 06:25:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 09/08/2026 00:01, John wrote:

    Christian women did cover their hair, as do most Muslim women.

    What is your basis for that assertion?

    Greek, Roman and Egyptian art do not depict women with covered heads
    except when mourning. On the other hand, I could well believe that many
    women covered their heads when out in the midday sun, but that would be
    to spare their complexions, nothing to do with supposed "modesty".

    The
    burka is worn by very few and, correct me if I'm wrong, more to do with culture than any Islamic text.

    The Qur'an, I believe, states that women should not allow their hair to
    be seen (lest it inflame men). How that should be implemented is a more cultural thing. For most, a variation on the hijab is considered
    sufficient. In Iran women wore the chador (or chadoor), a long piece of
    light cloth that could cover the whole body but usually only covered the
    head and trailed behind like a long cape. The burqa I only knew in
    India, Pakistan and Afghanistan and in India, at least, it was fairly ubitquitos but not universal. I believe that a similar garment (but not identical) is the custom in Saudi Arabia.

    Women were considered property so their
    place *was* in the home and "learning" was frowned upon, an example of
    which was Martha's attitude to Mary.

    Certainly women were property in all cultures, including Christian
    Europe until recently. Or rather - in Christian Europe - they were a responsibility for someone to guard - parents at first and husbands
    after that. Learning was frowned upon but not banned and I have before
    quoted Socrates on the subject.

    Other than honour killings (I may be wrong but I don't think it is based
    on the Qur'an) I don't know any other "offence" that individuals will kill.-a The death penalty is usually left to the state rulers to carry out.

    Adultery, apostasy and blasphemy. If you doubt me, have a word with
    Salman Rushdie.

    I see Islam as more based on OT principles.

    No, it is based on Arabian culture, but that was consonant with Middle
    Eastern culture in many ways.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2