• Christian Zionism

    From mick falconer@hermeneutika@msn.cpm to uk.religion.christian on Sun Mar 15 12:26:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question it.I
    did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed absolutely
    that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go against
    modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that
    curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.#

    Israel was always right and justified in what she did and for the rest
    it was tough luck. For decades i believed in Israel right or wrong. Then finally i came across a book by one Hank Hannegraf(The Apocalypse Code)
    where he points out that there is more than one interpretation of
    Christian prophecy. And that perhaps modern Israel is NOT the Israel of
    the Bible, but just another modern secular political state. And that
    indeed American Evangelical Christianity is in error......only God knows
    and He aint saying!!!



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  • From Timreason@timreason@hotmail.co.uk to uk.religion.christian on Sun Mar 15 19:51:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 15/03/2026 12:26, mick falconer wrote:
    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question it.I
    did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed absolutely that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go against
    modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    Ge 12:3-a And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that
    curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.#

    Israel was always right and justified in what she did and for the rest
    it was tough luck. For decades i believed in Israel right or wrong. Then finally i came across a book by one Hank Hannegraf(The Apocalypse Code) where he points out that there is more than one interpretation of
    Christian prophecy. And that perhaps modern Israel is NOT the Israel of
    the Bible, but just another modern secular political state. And that
    indeed American Evangelical Christianity is in error......only God knows
    and He aint saying!!!


    American Evangelical Christianity is in error. I have no doubt about
    that. Indeed, in many ways I find it very hard to recognise it as the Christianity of the Sermon on the Mount.

    As for Israel, the Old Testament (as we would refer to it) clearly had
    the principle of "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth". A way of
    saying retribution should be proportionate. Israel went FAR beyond a proportionate response to the attack from Gaza.

    Consequently, the State of Israel went out of favour here in the UK,
    although not in the USA. It seems that if Israel says 'Jump', the USA
    says 'How high?'

    Our government should defend British interests and protect British
    citizens at home and abroad. We have NO obligation to support either
    Israel, or the USA, in an unjust and illegal war against Iran that we
    were never consulted about in the first place.

    Tim.




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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Mar 16 04:11:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 15/03/2026 12:26, mick falconer wrote:

    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question it.I
    did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed absolutely that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go against
    modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    That is unfortunate and denies the basic Christian belief that the
    church is now the unique "people of God", as St Peter explicitly states
    in 1 Peter 2:9, 10, where he quotes the promises given to Israel at its foundation in Exodus 19, and applies them to Christians "which in time
    past were not a people, but are now the people of God."

    It is certainly true that Old Testament prophets made predictions about
    Israel which have not been fulfilled - one thinks of Ezekiel, for
    example - but that is covered by God's warning in Jeremiah 18:7-10,
    where He makes it clear that His predictions are based on national
    behaviour and can be revised and changed if nations alter their behaviour.

    In addition, the book of Revelation takes Ezekiel's predictions and
    transposes them into a slightly different form. Those who blather on
    about how "God cannot lie" and the promises must be fulfilled can, if
    they will study their Bibles, see how the promises will indeed be
    fulfilled, just with a twist to account for the fact that they are now
    not applied to Israel but to the world-wide people of God.

    If modern Israel was indeed a fulfilment of Bible prophecy, it is
    axiomatic that it should be a nation of righteousness. In fact Israel
    had appalling rates of atheism and immorality and only those who are
    wilfully blind can possibly claim that it is God's holy people.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Mar 16 04:15:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 15/03/2026 19:51, Timreason wrote:

    Our government should defend British interests and protect British
    citizens at home and abroad. We have NO obligation to support either
    Israel, or the USA, in an unjust and illegal war against Iran that we
    were never consulted about in the first place.
    The war with Iran is probably no more illegal than any other war. I'm
    not even sure that a war which begins by removing Khomeini can be characterised as "unjust".

    Unwise is, however, a more likely epithet.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Mar 16 13:29:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 16/03/2026 04:11, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 15/03/2026 12:26, mick falconer wrote:

    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed
    the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question
    it.I did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed
    absolutely that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go
    against modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    That is unfortunate and denies the basic Christian belief that the
    church is now the unique "people of God", as St Peter explicitly states
    in 1 Peter 2:9, 10, where he quotes the promises given to Israel at its foundation in Exodus 19, and applies them to Christians "which in time
    past were not a people, but are now the people of God."

    I'm curious to know what happened to people outside Judaism prior to Christianity. If, as Peter states, they were not part of God's
    salvation plan previously, did they just live and die and that was that?

    Another interesting observation; prior to the spread of Christianity,
    Judaism was just a small religion based in the Middle East. It was
    quite a coup, in my opinion, to expand belief in their God into a world
    wide religion.



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  • From mick falconer@hermeneutika@msn.cpm to uk.religion.christian on Mon Mar 16 19:28:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 15/03/2026 12:26, mick falconer wrote:
    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question it.I
    did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed absolutely that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go against
    modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    Ge 12:3-a And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that
    curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.#

    Israel was always right and justified in what she did and for the rest
    it was tough luck. For decades i believed in Israel right or wrong. Then finally i came across a book by one Hank Hannegraf(The Apocalypse Code) where he points out that there is more than one interpretation of
    Christian prophecy. And that perhaps modern Israel is NOT the Israel of
    the Bible, but just another modern secular political state. And that
    indeed American Evangelical Christianity is in error......only God knows
    and He aint saying!!!



    I still dont have a clue but now i have two books

    David Pawson Defending Christian Zionism
    Stephen Sizer Zions Christian Soldiers

    I am prayerfully reading both and of course the Bible




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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue Mar 17 03:45:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 16/03/2026 13:29, John wrote:

    I'm curious to know what happened to people outside Judaism prior to Christianity.-a If, as Peter states, they were not part of God's
    salvation plan previously, did they just live and die and that was that?

    There are two answers.

    The first is that Isaiah 56:6 invites non-Jews to join the people of God
    and thus become participants in the covenant promises.

    Psalm 87:4-6 however indicates that when God calculates His people, He
    takes their birthplace into account. Although it is not spelled out, my assumption is that someone born in "Ethiopia" (the Sudan) would not have
    a detailed knowledge about God and that would be taken into account in assessing his status.

    Another interesting observation; prior to the spread of Christianity, Judaism was just a small religion based in the Middle East.-a It was
    quite a coup, in my opinion, to expand belief in their God into a world
    wide religion.

    I don't believe it was God's intention for Judaism to be so restricted.
    It has been often pointed out that God placed Israel at the cross-roads
    of the ancient world with the intention that the position would enable
    them to have contact with other nations and spread the knowledge about God.

    Israel failed in that purpose, which is one of the reasons why God
    raised up the Christian church to take the place of Israel and become a missionary organisation.

    However I think you underestimate the spread of Judaism before Christ.
    There were Jews all over the place, known and resented. I blame Ezra and Nehemiah for making Jews exclusive, so that although they were in
    Alexandria (say) they formed a ghetto and did not welcome outsiders or
    seek to spread the knowledge of God among the people around them.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue Mar 17 03:47:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 16/03/2026 19:28, mick falconer wrote:

    I still dont have a clue but now i have two books

    How about you get a third (or even a fourth) book, ones which present
    the opposite argument? If you only read books which agree with you, it's called "confirmation bias".

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed Mar 18 12:40:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 17/03/2026 03:47, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 16/03/2026 19:28, mick falconer wrote:

    I still dont have a clue but now i have two books

    How about you get a third (or even a fourth) book, ones which present
    the opposite argument? If you only read books which agree with you, it's called "confirmation bias".

    Well said Ken.

    It might be worth checking out Monte Mader. She's an ex-Christian
    nationalist who I've been following for the last few months. Here she
    sopeaks about Zionism and it's dangers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqvnqVj4zy4



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  • From hermeneutika@hermeneutika@msn.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu Mar 19 08:46:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 16/03/2026 04:11, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 15/03/2026 12:26, mick falconer wrote:

    As a young Christian in the 70s and 80s we were taught Christian
    eschatology in the form of Christian Zionism. Being naive i believed
    the Church Authorities knew better than myself so i did not question
    it.I did not even know that there were alternatives. So i believed
    absolutely that modern day Israel was part of God's plan....and to go
    against modern Israel was to risk the wrath of God

    That is unfortunate and denies the basic Christian belief that the
    church is now the unique "people of God", as St Peter explicitly states
    in 1 Peter 2:9, 10, where he quotes the promises given to Israel at its foundation in Exodus 19, and applies them to Christians "which in time
    past were not a people, but are now the people of God."

    It is certainly true that Old Testament prophets made predictions about Israel which have not been fulfilled - one thinks of Ezekiel, for
    example - but that is covered by God's warning in Jeremiah 18:7-10,
    where He makes it clear that His predictions are based on national
    behaviour and can be revised and changed if nations alter their behaviour.

    In addition, the book of Revelation takes Ezekiel's predictions and transposes them into a slightly different form. Those who blather on
    about how "God cannot lie" and the promises must be fulfilled can, if
    they will study their Bibles, see how the promises will indeed be
    fulfilled, just with a twist to account for the fact that they are now
    not applied to Israel but to the world-wide people of God.

    If modern Israel was indeed a fulfilment of Bible prophecy, it is
    axiomatic that it should be a nation of righteousness. In fact Israel
    had appalling rates of atheism and immorality and only those who are wilfully blind can possibly claim that it is God's holy people.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down

    Amen.



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  • From hermeneutika@hermeneutika@msn.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu Mar 19 08:49:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 17/03/2026 03:47, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 16/03/2026 19:28, mick falconer wrote:

    I still dont have a clue but now i have two books

    How about you get a third (or even a fourth) book, ones which present
    the opposite argument? If you only read books which agree with you, it's called "confirmation bias".

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down

    the books i have are from opposite ends of continuum.....one presents
    the view that indeed modern Israel is the Israel of the OT ....the other
    does not!!



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri Mar 20 05:32:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 18/03/2026 12:40, John wrote:

    It might be worth checking out Monte Mader.-a She's an ex-Christian nationalist who I've been following for the last few months.-a Here she speaks about Zionism and it's dangers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqvnqVj4zy4

    Thanks for the recommendation. I know nothing of this person - I tend to
    steer clear of both sides. I take my beliefs from the Bible directly.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri Mar 20 05:35:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 19/03/2026 08:49, hermeneutika wrote:

    the books i have are from opposite ends of continuum.....one presents
    the view that indeed modern Israel is the Israel of the OT ....the other does not!!
    That is good. However as well as reading the books, also read the Bible
    (the whole Bible) and read the newspapers. The Bible will tell you what
    God's people ought to be when He restores them to the promised land
    (and, indeed, whether those promises are still valid); the newspapers
    will tell you whether modern Israel fulfills the requirements.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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