From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-15628447/ancient-sea-fossils-mountains-noah-flood.html

Some Christians claim that the presence of sea shells (fossilised) on
top of various high mountains is evidence of Noah's flood. There are
several problems with this claim.

The first is that the Flood only covered the earth for less than a year
- and the highest peaks for a good deal less than a year. Is that enough
time for these extensive - both in area and in depth - beds of oysters
or whatever they are, to grow?

Many of the shellfish are quite large, which in normal oceans would
indicate age. As noted above, the Flood waters only covered the highest
peaks for much less than a year. I doubt that is long enough for the
oysters (or whatever) to grow to that size.

The Biblical statement that the flood-waters covered the highest peaks
to a depth of 15 feet does not tell us how long the peaks were covered
for. If, as I sometimes think, the Flood was caused by something like a
meteor plunging into the ocean and triggering not only disturbances in
the weather (40 days and nights of rain) but also tidal waves and
tsunamis, then the highest peaks may only have been covered for an hour
or two - long enough to drown any antediluvians clinging to them, but
not nearly long enough to allow beds of sea shells to grow.

Finally, if there was some cataclysmic event such as a huge meteor
strike, that may have triggered movement of tectonic plates which, in
turn, elevated mountains. Thus the 15' coverage need not imply that Mt
Everest was covered with 15' of water, merely that the mountains which
existed before the Flood were covered. Thus the standard geological explanation - that the beds of sea shells were formerly under the sea
and have since been elevated to their present height - may well be
correct as to the nature of the event, merely mistaken as to the time
scale involved.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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On 10/03/2026 05:21, Kendall K. Down wrote:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-15628447/ancient-sea- fossils-mountains-noah-flood.html

The Biblical statement that the flood-waters covered the highest peaks
to a depth of 15 feet does not tell us how long the peaks were covered
for. If, as I sometimes think, the Flood was caused by something like a meteor plunging into the ocean and triggering not only disturbances in
the weather (40 days and nights of rain) but also tidal waves and
tsunamis, then the highest peaks may only have been covered for an hour
or two - long enough to drown any antediluvians clinging to them, but
not nearly long enough to allow beds of sea shells to grow.

Finally, if there was some cataclysmic event such as a huge meteor
strike, that may have triggered movement of tectonic plates which, in
turn, elevated mountains. Thus the 15' coverage need not imply that Mt Everest was covered with 15' of water, merely that the mountains which existed before the Flood were covered. Thus the standard geological explanation - that the beds of sea shells were formerly under the sea
and have since been elevated to their present height - may well be
correct as to the nature of the event, merely mistaken as to the time
scale involved.

I'm quite surprised by what you've written, suggesting it might have
been a meteor strike. The bible tells us it persistently rained for 40
days and nights and the whole earth was flooded. No mention of fire
from heaven (meteor) or giant waves.

I don't take the bible literally on this, and my own thoughts are either localised flooding, or more likely, the end of the ice age when the ice melted. However, I thought you did take the it literally?

As an aside, my burning question is, how did the penguins get from the
North pole to the middle east?



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 10/03/2026 12:58, John wrote:

As an aside, my burning question is, how did the penguins get from the
North pole to the middle east?

What were penguins doing at the North pole, anyway? They couldn't have
been further from home than that!

Tim.




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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 10/03/2026 16:43, Timreason wrote:

On 10/03/2026 12:58, John wrote:

As an aside, my burning question is, how did the penguins get from the
North pole to the middle east?

What were penguins doing at the North pole, anyway? They couldn't have
been further from home than that!

Typo lol, (not really) Antartica of course, but the distance is still valid.



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 10/03/2026 12:58, John wrote:

I'm quite surprised by what you've written, suggesting it might have
been a meteor strike. The bible tells us it persistently rained for 40
days and nights and the whole earth was flooded.-a No mention of fire
from heaven (meteor) or giant waves.

I don't doubt that it did rain for 40 days and nights; the question is,
*why* did it rain? Was it an exceptionaly hot summer with lots of
evaporation from the sea and extra-heavy clouds overhead? Was it a
direct miracle? Might there have been some other cause?

I am not committed to a meteor strike. I merely advance it as a
*possible* cause for wide-spread weather upsets. And if the meteor had
struck round the other side of the world from where Noah lived, he would
not have seen it or experienced it and so it would not have entered the Biblical record.

In the same way the Bible records extensive flooding. Could even 40 days
of rain result in the mountains being covered? If not, is there some
other mechanism which might have that result?

I don't take the bible literally on this, and my own thoughts are either localised flooding, or more likely, the end of the ice age when the ice melted.-a However, I thought you did take the it literally?

The Biblical account is of what Noah and his family experienced - and
even so it is brief enough. They were shut up inside a giant wooden boat
and had been for seven days before the rain started. What went on
outside the boat?

Did they actually get out a tape measure and measure the depth of water
over the mountains? Or did Noah build his boat in an upland valley
surrounded by mountains and when, after the Flood, he comes out onto a
plain he looks at the draught of the ark and realises that for it to
have been carried out of the valley, the water must have been that high
over the tops of the mountains.

As an aside, my burning question is, how did the penguins get from the
North pole to the middle east?

Did penguins get from the north pole to the middle east? Or did they,
like the fish, whales and eels, simply carry on swimming throughout the
Flood?

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 10/03/2026 16:43, Timreason wrote:

What were penguins doing at the North pole, anyway? They couldn't have
been further from home than that!

Bible sceptics frequently allow their anti-biblical sentiments to
override their grasp of science, geography and anythning else.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 11/03/2026 07:01, Kendall K. Down wrote:

On 10/03/2026 12:58, John wrote:

I'm quite surprised by what you've written, suggesting it might have
been a meteor strike. The bible tells us it persistently rained for 40
days and nights and the whole earth was flooded.-a No mention of fire
from heaven (meteor) or giant waves.

I don't doubt that it did rain for 40 days and nights; the question is, *why* did it rain? Was it an exceptionaly hot summer with lots of evaporation from the sea and extra-heavy clouds overhead? Was it a
direct miracle? Might there have been some other cause?

As a literalist I assumed you would accept the biblical story. It
rained because God wanted to wipe out mankind, other than Noah and his
family. As it wasn't written down until the 5th century BC, it's more
likely a myth, similar to the Genesis one.

Strangely though, given that Noah and his family were righteous, you
would have expected that mankind would have started again with a clean
canvas. What went wrong I wonder?

I am not committed to a meteor strike. I merely advance it as a
*possible* cause for wide-spread weather upsets. And if the meteor had struck round the other side of the world from where Noah lived, he would
not have seen it or experienced it and so it would not have entered the Biblical record.

In the same way the Bible records extensive flooding. Could even 40 days
of rain result in the mountains being covered? If not, is there some
other mechanism which might have that result?

Meteors and/or Tsumani's would not wipe out the entire world.

I don't take the bible literally on this, and my own thoughts are
either localised flooding, or more likely, the end of the ice age when
the ice melted.-a However, I thought you did take the it literally?

The Biblical account is of what Noah and his family experienced - and
even so it is brief enough. They were shut up inside a giant wooden boat
and had been for seven days before the rain started. What went on
outside the boat?

Who knows, more to the point, how did all the different species live
together with each other? Surely the lions would have devoured most of
them, including the humans. How much food would have been needed for 150
days. I guess that would have filled the boat by itself.

Did they actually get out a tape measure and measure the depth of water
over the mountains? Or did Noah build his boat in an upland valley surrounded by mountains and when, after the Flood, he comes out onto a
plain he looks at the draught of the ark and realises that for it to
have been carried out of the valley, the water must have been that high
over the tops of the mountains.

As an aside, my burning question is, how did the penguins get from the
North pole to the middle east?

Did penguins get from the north pole to the middle east? Or did they,
like the fish, whales and eels, simply carry on swimming throughout the Flood?

Well it said Noah was to include every species. but ok, how did the
kangaroos get there - hop?



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 12/03/2026 16:42, John wrote:

As a literalist I assumed you would accept the biblical story.

Of course I accept the Biblical story - but Genesis doesn't describe the mechanism which produced the rain and the flood.

Strangely though, given that Noah and his family were righteous, you
would have expected that mankind would have started again with a clean canvas. What went wrong I wonder?

Ham.

Meteors and/or Tsumani's would not wipe out the entire world.

Yet the boffins tell us that they wiped out the dinosaurs.

Who knows, more to the point, how did all the different species live together with each other? Surely the lions would have devoured most of
them, including the humans. How much food would have been needed for 150 days. I guess that would have filled the boat by itself.

Many animals can shut down in a hibernation state. I have no doubt God
could have cause them all to do so. Not much food required when hibernating.

Well it said Noah was to include every species. but ok, how did the kangaroos get there - hop?

Don't forget that the boffins tell us that at one point - and I would
put that point before the Flood - the whole world was a single
continent. Pangeia?

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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* "Kendall K. Down" <10ov51v$2aqrh$2@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Thu, 12 Mar 2026 19:43:59 +0000:

On 12/03/2026 16:42, John wrote:

As a literalist I assumed you would accept the biblical story.

Of course I accept the Biblical story - but Genesis doesn't describe
the mechanism which produced the rain and the flood.

seek to understand it in terms of modern meteorology, and immediately
pounced on "meteor".

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the
great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

I think it is fairly clear. And the voice from the whirlwind in Job
responding to intellectual attempts to rationalize will with known
science

38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who
hath gendered it?
38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is
frozen.

[snip]

Don't forget that the boffins tell us that at one point - and I would
put that point before the Flood - the whole world was a single
continent. Pangeia?

From jewish legends there is a theory: that before the flood h2o existed
in the non-liquid state "as a canopy". there was no agriculture because
of insufficient sunlight and it was obscured by the clouds and after the
flood the water came down facilitating cultivation of crop --- and the
mode of life of primitive man was changed from hunting and gathering to agriculture and surplus, by the bankers the leading to the banking
systems to manage the surplus and keep the reformed man in sin...



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 13/03/2026 02:40, Madhu wrote:

I think it is fairly clear.

What is "fairly clear"? That it rained for 40 days and nights?
Undoubtedly. That the rain was caused by El Nino? No, not at all clear.
The cause and source of the rain is not mentioned at all.

From jewish legends there is a theory: that before the flood h2o existed
in the non-liquid state "as a canopy". there was no agriculture because
of insufficient sunlight and it was obscured by the clouds and after the flood the water came down facilitating cultivation of crop --- and the
mode of life of primitive man was changed from hunting and gathering to agriculture and surplus, by the bankers the leading to the banking
systems to manage the surplus and keep the reformed man in sin...

I might have known that bankers would somehow creep into your diatribe.

Actually, the theory you describe does not come from Jewish legends (so
far as I know) but is a garbled version of a theory put forward by
Whitcomb and Morris in "The Genesis Flood" (though they had nothing to
say about bankers).

They point out that there is a curious band of high temperature high in
the atmosphere and as water retention is a function of temperature, they postulate that a large quantity of water could have been held up there
and then released as rain. They do not, so far as I recall, put forward
any explanation about how or why the water vapour would suddenly be
released.

However the idea that this water vapour took the form of clouds is not
in W & M. Water vapour is essentially colourless and transparent. There
would undoubtedly be some interference with incoming light, but the
water vapour presently in the atmosphere does not prevent you seeing the
stars at night. It causes them to "twinkle", but that is all.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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* "Kendall K. Down" <10p06e6$2omqv$2@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Fri, 13 Mar 2026 05:13:43 +0000:

Actually, the theory you describe does not come from Jewish legends
(so far as I know) but is a garbled version of a theory put forward by Whitcomb and Morris in "The Genesis Flood" (though they had nothing to
say about bankers).

it's available at https://archive.org/details/the-genesis-flood with the political background at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Genesis_Flood
but I'm backlogged to much to download or read it now...

They point out that there is a curious band of high temperature high
in the atmosphere and as water retention is a function of temperature,
they postulate that a large quantity of water could have been held up
there and then released as rain. They do not, so far as I recall, put
forward any explanation about how or why the water vapour would
suddenly be released.

However the idea that this water vapour took the form of clouds is not
in W & M. Water vapour is essentially colourless and
transparent. There would undoubtedly be some interference with
incoming light, but the water vapour presently in the atmosphere does
not prevent you seeing the stars at night. It causes them to
"twinkle", but that is all.

Is Wales that different from England, that you never go for days without
seeing the sun, on account of the clouds?



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 12/03/2026 19:43, Kendall K. Down wrote:

On 12/03/2026 16:42, John wrote:

As a literalist I assumed you would accept the biblical story.

Of course I accept the Biblical story - but Genesis doesn't describe the mechanism which produced the rain and the flood.

I was merely musing that you suggested scientific methods to explain the floods. I get that it's merely a supposition, and it may well have
happened that way, you just surprised me given your normal literal stance

Strangely though, given that Noah and his family were righteous, you
would have expected that mankind would have started again with a clean
canvas. What went wrong I wonder?

Ham.

But if Ham was righteous, and the others were righteous, why did Ham
become unrighteous, it kid of defeats the reason for the flood doesn't it?

Meteors and/or Tsumani's would not wipe out the entire world.

Yet the boffins tell us that they wiped out the dinosaurs.

Did Dinosaurs roam the whole Earth, or just parts of it? And if the
former, why weren't humans and other species wiped out at the same time?

Who knows, more to the point, how did all the different species live
together with each other? Surely the lions would have devoured most of
them, including the humans. How much food would have been needed for
150 days. I guess that would have filled the boat by itself.

Many animals can shut down in a hibernation state. I have no doubt God
could have cause them all to do so. Not much food required when
hibernating.

Fair point.

Well it said Noah was to include every species. but ok, how did the
kangaroos get there - hop?

Don't forget that the boffins tell us that at one point - and I would
put that point before the Flood - the whole world was a single
continent. Pangeia?

I'm not sure that's true, but if it is, it's still a long way to Tippe...sorry, the Middle East. Could a Kangaroo get there with just a
weeks notice, and how did they know to get there in the first place?



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On 13/03/2026 09:16, Madhu wrote:

it's available at https://archive.org/details/the-genesis-flood with the political background at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Genesis_Flood
but I'm backlogged to much to download or read it now...

I think "political background" is wishful thinking on your part. The
Wikipedia article discusses the scientific background, but I failed to
see anything about politics.

Is Wales that different from England, that you never go for days without seeing the sun, on account of the clouds?

But you don't get clouds up at the level which Whitcomb and Morris
identified as the source of the waters of the Flood.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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On 13/03/2026 12:48, John wrote:

I was merely musing that you suggested scientific methods to explain the floods. I get that it's merely a supposition, and it may well have
happened that way, you just surprised me given your normal literal stance

Why do you perceive a conflict between a literal Flood and a scientific explanation?

The "literal Flood" simply means that I believe that at one point the
earth was covered by water and all except eight people and a collection
of animals perished. It does not commit me to any particular explanation
for how the Flood came about. Perhaps God had the angels lined up with
buckets of water? Perhaps God manipulated the El Nino effect? Perhaps ....

But if Ham was righteous, and the others were righteous, why did Ham
become unrighteous, it kid of defeats the reason for the flood doesn't it?

Why did the devil decide to go bad? The origin of evil is inexplicable.

Did Dinosaurs roam the whole Earth, or just parts of it?-a And if the former, why weren't humans and other species wiped out at the same time?

I think dinosaur remains are pretty wide-spread. And yes, other species
were also wiped out by the catastrophe that destroyed the dinosaurs. I
see no reason why that would not have included humans (though
conventional scientists would deny that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.)

I'm not sure that's true, but if it is, it's still a long way to Tippe...sorry, the Middle East.-a Could a Kangaroo get there with just a weeks notice, and how did they know to get there in the first place?

Why a week's notice? What is your source for that? As for how they knew,
I think the Bible account indicates that the animals which entered the
ark were collected by God.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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* "Kendall K. Down" <10p2pm3$3uari$2@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sat, 14 Mar 2026 04:54:29 +0000:

On 13/03/2026 09:16, Madhu wrote:

it's available at https://archive.org/details/the-genesis-flood with the
political background at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Genesis_Flood
but I'm backlogged to much to download or read it now...

I think "political background" is wishful thinking on your part. The Wikipedia article discusses the scientific background, but I failed to
see anything about politics.

I was referring to the machinations in the seminary and publishing
houses, and the of reception by both denominations and "scientific
community", maybe I was reading too much into it but what else would you
call it if not politics, even if no politicians are involved




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On 14/03/2026 05:03, Kendall K. Down wrote:

On 13/03/2026 12:48, John wrote:

I was merely musing that you suggested scientific methods to explain
the floods. I get that it's merely a supposition, and it may well have
happened that way, you just surprised me given your normal literal stance

Why do you perceive a conflict between a literal Flood and a scientific explanation?

The "literal Flood" simply means that I believe that at one point the
earth was covered by water and all except eight people and a collection
of animals perished. It does not commit me to any particular explanation
for how the Flood came about. Perhaps God had the angels lined up with buckets of water? Perhaps God manipulated the El Nino effect? Perhaps ....

But if Ham was righteous, and the others were righteous, why did Ham
become unrighteous, it kid of defeats the reason for the flood doesn't
it?

Why did the devil decide to go bad? The origin of evil is inexplicable.

You've raised an interesting point I hadn't considered, so leave that
with me.

That said, remember God is starting again. He saves 8 people who He
considers righteous, as a blueprint to starting the human race from
scratch again. Surely God had the freknowledge not to include Ham in His plans, knowing it would all be messed up again.

Did Dinosaurs roam the whole Earth, or just parts of it?-a And if the
former, why weren't humans and other species wiped out at the same time?

I think dinosaur remains are pretty wide-spread. And yes, other species
were also wiped out by the catastrophe that destroyed the dinosaurs. I
see no reason why that would not have included humans (though
conventional scientists would deny that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.)

Dinosaurs were wiped out completely, humans weren't, but then again they existed millions of years before humans did, so wouldn't have been
around at the time of the flood.

I'm not sure that's true, but if it is, it's still a long way to
Tippe...sorry, the Middle East.-a Could a Kangaroo get there with just
a weeks notice, and how did they know to get there in the first place?

Why a week's notice? What is your source for that? As for how they knew,
I think the Bible account indicates that the animals which entered the
ark were collected by God.

A weeks notice, Genesis 7:4

Noah gathering the animals and birds Genesis 6:19-20




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On 14/03/2026 16:30, Madhu wrote:

I was referring to the machinations in the seminary and publishing
houses, and the of reception by both denominations and "scientific community", maybe I was reading too much into it but what else would you
call it if not politics, even if no politicians are involved

Well, in a very broad sense I suppose one might use the term
"politicking", but given your other posts, I naturally assumed you were
back to your favourite "it's all the bankers" motif.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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On 14/03/2026 16:54, John wrote:

That said, remember God is starting again.-a He saves 8 people who He considers righteous, as a blueprint to starting the human race from
scratch again. Surely God had the freknowledge not to include Ham in His plans, knowing it would all be messed up again.

But what if Ham had shown no outward signs of rebellion before the
Flood? What if is was the difficult post-Flood conditions which made him rebellious?

Certainly God could have foreseen that, but how would Noah and his wife
have reacted if Ham had died just before the Flood. Might they have
developed resentment against God and ended up with no one righteous at all?

Dinosaurs were wiped out completely, humans weren't, but then again they existed millions of years before humans did, so wouldn't have been
around at the time of the flood.

I presume dinosaurs were not invited into the ark - a fact for which I
am very grateful. Komodo Dragons are bad enough; imagine if similar
reptiles were even now wandering around the Lake District!

As for whether humans and dinosaurs co-existed, I believe that they did
but admit that there is no solid evidence for that.

A weeks notice, Genesis 7:4

But if you read a bit further, you will discover that at the start of
that seven days Noah and family went into the ark and, I presume, the
door was shut. Anyone or thing outside the ark at the start of those
seven days remained outside.

Noah gathering the animals and birds-a Genesis 6:19-20

I am sure that Noah did his best with the sheep and goats, but when it
came to the kangaroos and penguins (two creatures for whom you have
expressed concern) it was God Who brought them to the ark. Noah simply welcomed them and assigned living quarters!

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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