Arabic has a term, shahid, which has come to be translated as
"martyr", an egregious mistranslation that makes mockery of the
concept of martyrdom. Basically it would appear that any Muslim who
dies at the hands of a non-Muslim automatically becomes a "martyr",
whether he is a bank robber shot by cops in the course of committing a
crime, a terrorist who blows himself up trying to kill innocent women
and children, or a vicious tyrant who enriches himself while
oppressing the people unfortunate enough to come under his rule.
It's about time we started calling out this nonsense. Opinions may
differ on whether it was right to kill the Iranian president or not,
or whether he was a good or a bad ruler, but the one thing he was not
is that he was not and is not a martyr. He was never called upon to
forsake his Islamic faith, he was not killed defending his religion
against attacks by non-Muslims, his death is not linked in any way to
his beliefs.
By all means call him "shahid" if that is an appropriate term - I'm
not an Arabic scholar and do not know the meaning or implications of
the word - but stop debasing our English language and its cultural
heritage. Neither Ayatollah Khomanei nor the London Underground
bombers nor the nasty little Boko Haram criminals are martyrs.
In recent usage in India and elsewhere, especially in military and home-office central paramiltary forces, any death of personnel in duty against terrorism, even if i an accident is labeled martyr in the media.
Your complaint can at best be seen as "quaint" or "cute" given current
usage, and propaganda pundits contol of meaning.
On the contrary I think the Ayatollah's death should be counted as a
martyr, in the best sense of the Revelation Of John, if it is a witness against the endtimes global banking kingdom of the antichrist intenet on bringing iran's central bank under its control. He would be a
forerunner of the other martyrs who will answer the agenda and the
claims of the beast.
On 03/03/2026 15:11, Madhu wrote:He didn't fall, he was pushed. At least that's what the conspiracy
In recent usage in India and elsewhere, especially in military and
home-office central paramiltary forces, any death of personnel in duty
against terrorism, even if i an accident is labeled martyr in the media.
Your complaint can at best be seen as "quaint" or "cute" given current
usage, and propaganda pundits contol of meaning.
I reject Humpty Dumpty entirely.
On 03/03/2026 15:11, Madhu wrote:
In recent usage in India and elsewhere, especially in military and
home-office central paramiltary forces, any death of personnel in duty
against terrorism, even if i an accident is labeled martyr in the media.
Your complaint can at best be seen as "quaint" or "cute" given current
usage, and propaganda pundits contol of meaning.
I reject Humpty Dumpty entirely. Words do not mean whatever someone
wants them to mean. Communication would be impossible if words did not
have a meaning independent of the speaker.
He didn't fall, he was pushed.-a At least that's what the conspiracy theorists claim!Conspiracy theorists are notably silent about his prior claim that words
You're fighting a tricky battle if you hope to control how people use
words. Even the OED compilers-a don't attempt that. They watch how people use words and adjust the dictionary accordingly. They regard themselves
as scorekeepers, not umpires.
Until you raised the issue, I assumed Ali Khameini stuck to his
religious beliefs, and he was killed because of them. On the hypothesis
my assumption is correct, would he not fall into your definition of martyr?
The Iranians I have met have all been lovely, charming, polite people.I completely agree with what you say about Iranians. On the other hand
If you look at what has been done to them by the British and Americans
in the past, it's extraordinary how nice they are.
The Iranians I have met have all been lovely, charming, polite people.
If you look at what has been done to them by the British and Americans
in the past, it's extraordinary how nice they are.
On 04/03/2026 18:44, GB wrote:
You're fighting a tricky battle if you hope to control how people use
words. Even the OED compilers-a don't attempt that. They watch how
people use words and adjust the dictionary accordingly. They regard
themselves as scorekeepers, not umpires.
They are wrong.
Until you raised the issue, I assumed Ali Khameini stuck to his
religious beliefs, and he was killed because of them. On the
hypothesis my assumption is correct, would he not fall into your
definition of martyr?
.....hostility to America is not a core Islamic
belief set out in the Qur'an.
The Iranians I have met have all been lovely, charming, polite people.
If you look at what has been done to them by the British and Americans
in the past, it's extraordinary how nice they are.
I completely agree with what you say about Iranians. On the other hand
their Shia religion provides a dark side to the Iranian character which probably does not come out in the casual interactions you have had.
https://www.bing.com/images/search? view=detailV2&ccid=8x8Hv%2B%2Fc&id=F6CCC33770BF67D7302B8592211801EC8D9998AD&thid=OIP.8x8Hv-_c3TYM3_BosNS71AHaFQ&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdata1.ibtimes.co.in%2Fen%2Ffull%2F551312%2Fmuharram.jpg%3Fw%3D640&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.f31f07bfefdcdd360cdff068b0d4bbd4%3Frik%3DrZiZjewBGCGShQ%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=455&expw=640&q=national+geographic+iran+knife+ali+mourning+child+muharram&FORM=IRPRST&ck=5809558A23053A257CB377BBCF65C17D&selectedIndex=141&itb=0&cw=1318&ch=841&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
Anyone remember that National Geographic picture of a father armed with
a whacking great machete hacking at the head of his 6 or 7-year old son?
The above URL is not it, but is similar.
I totally agree
Did you forget to fact check again Ken?-a This was taken at a religious festival, and does not depict a father killing his child.
On 05/03/2026 19:28, John wrote:
Did you forget to fact check again Ken?-a This was taken at a religious
festival, and does not depict a father killing his child.
I know it was a religious festival, Muharram. I've seen Shi-ites in Iran scourging themselves bloody. I know the history behind the festival.
Nor did I claim that the father was killing his son.
Really, you ought to learn to read before you try slagging me off.
On 05/03/2026 19:03, John wrote:
I totally agree
Thank you for your stories. Mind you, one could give similar stories
about people of just about every nationality. I don't think the average Iranian is any nicer than the average Iraqi or average Swede or average Briton. And I do assure you that there are bad apples in Iran, just as
much as anywhere else.
"Anyone remember that National Geographic picture of a father armed withYes, and where in that do I say that anyone was killing?
a whacking great machete hacking at the head of his 6 or 7-year old son?
The above URL is not it, but is *similar*"-a (my emphasis)
Of course, and I can only go by the experience of the 3 Iranians I have
met, but you always tend to paint a darker picture than is reality when
it comes to brown and Muslim people.
That's not to say the Iranian Govt is pure and good. It's a murderous, vicious regime that rules by fear, but GB and I were pointing that, inA trueism which could be stated for any race or nationality you care to mention.
our experience, the ordinary Iranian's are good people on the whole.
On 04/03/2026 18:44, GB wrote:
You're fighting a tricky battle if you hope to control how people use
words. Even the OED compilers-a don't attempt that. They watch how
people use words and adjust the dictionary accordingly. They regard
themselves as scorekeepers, not umpires.
They are wrong.
Until you raised the issue, I assumed Ali Khameini stuck to his
religious beliefs, and he was killed because of them. On the
hypothesis my assumption is correct, would he not fall into your
definition of martyr?
I am sure that Khomeini was a Muslim till the day of his death, but he
was not killed *because* he was a Muslim. He was killed because he was
an anti-American head of a state hostile to America and although many Muslims are anti-American, hostility to America is not a core Islamic
belief set out in the Qur'an.
If he *had* been killed for being a Muslim - and particularly if he had
been offered life in exchange for apostasy - then he would be a martyr.
As neither was the case, he is not a martyr.
Of course, the word "martyr" has come to have non-religious
connotations. Someone has a heart attack because of the stress of his
job and people say that "he was a martyr to xyz business". So I suppose
you could say that Khomeini was a "martyr to anti-Americanism" or a
"martyr in the cause of Iranian independence", but he was certainly not
a martyr for Islam.
The Iranians I have met have all been lovely, charming, polite people.I completely agree with what you say about Iranians. On the other hand
If you look at what has been done to them by the British and Americans
in the past, it's extraordinary how nice they are.
their Shia religion provides a dark side to the Iranian character which probably does not come out in the casual interactions you have had.
https://www.bing.com/images/search? view=detailV2&ccid=8x8Hv%2B%2Fc&id=F6CCC33770BF67D7302B8592211801EC8D9998AD&thid=OIP.8x8Hv-_c3TYM3_BosNS71AHaFQ&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdata1.ibtimes.co.in%2Fen%2Ffull%2F551312%2Fmuharram.jpg%3Fw%3D640&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.f31f07bfefdcdd360cdff068b0d4bbd4%3Frik%3DrZiZjewBGCGShQ%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=455&expw=640&q=national+geographic+iran+knife+ali+mourning+child+muharram&FORM=IRPRST&ck=5809558A23053A257CB377BBCF65C17D&selectedIndex=141&itb=0&cw=1318&ch=841&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
Anyone remember that National Geographic picture of a father armed with
a whacking great machete hacking at the head of his 6 or 7-year old son?
The above URL is not it, but is similar.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Hence, I don't think you can divide Khameini's religious beliefs from
his political views in the way you have.
On 07/03/2026 10:55, John wrote:
Of course, and I can only go by the experience of the 3 Iranians I
have met, but you always tend to paint a darker picture than is
reality when it comes to brown and Muslim people.
Perhaps because I know rather more than three Iranians? Perhaps because
I have travelled the length and breadth of Iran? Perhaps because, as
well as the kindness and courtesy of Iranians, I have also experienced
crime and prejudice in Iran?
That's not to say the Iranian Govt is pure and good. It's a murderous,A trueism which could be stated for any race or nationality you care to mention.
vicious regime that rules by fear, but GB and I were pointing that, in
our experience, the ordinary Iranian's are good people on the whole.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
We have some real humdingers here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgkj148p7no
On 12/03/2026 15:40, GB wrote:
We have some real humdingers here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgkj148p7no
The URL seems to refer only to the story of a woman kept as a slave by another British woman. Care to explain your comment a bit further?
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
It was a pretty trivial response to "Perhaps because, as well as the kindness and courtesy of Iranians, I have also experienced crime and prejudice in Iran?"So you merely illustrate my point that there are good and bad in every
The slave keeper struck me as an example of a pretty abominable criminal
in this country. It's no deeper than that, I'm afraid.
On 13/03/2026 11:46, GB wrote:
It was a pretty trivial response to "Perhaps because, as well as theSo you merely illustrate my point that there are good and bad in every country or nationality.
kindness and courtesy of Iranians, I have also experienced crime and
prejudice in Iran?"
The slave keeper struck me as an example of a pretty abominable
criminal in this country. It's no deeper than that, I'm afraid.
Seeing a procession of men beating themselves bloody during Muharram is
one which I observed and which, to my mind, is a disturbing part of the Iranian psyche. It goes far to explain why Shia Muslims seem
particularly prone to suicide bombings and similar atrocities.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Yet even so, to me the essence of martyrdom is that death is accepted
rather than deny one's faith. Khomeini was not offered the chance of
life in exchange for forsaking Islam, even his perverted idea of
Islam. He was killed because he was head of state that was hostile to America.
(Note that I am not passing judgement on whether he should have been
killed or not, I'm merely denying that he was a "martyr.")
.... It goes far to explain why *[a small minority of]* Shia Muslims seem particularly prone to suicide bombings and similar atrocities.
He was killed because the mossad and their bosses and allies (8:44) are murderers and that is the only way the employers them retain their illegitimate power.
I can't see why else you'd insist on this point.Because I hold a more nuanced view about life than you do. I don't
I don't know how wide-spread that particular practice is?
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