The bible says you must be born of the Spirit, but what exactly doesI think the main point of the expression is that you cannot remake
that mean?-a For me it meant becoming a Christian and having your life transformed, believing in Paul's description of no longer being
conformed to the World's standard, but something new struck me a few
weeks ago, and maybe I was wrong.
The bible says you must be born of the Spirit, but what exactly does
that mean?-a For me it meant becoming a Christian and having your life transformed, believing in Paul's description of no longer being
conformed to the World's standard, but something new struck me a few
weeks ago, and maybe I was wrong.
On 23/02/2026 21:58, John wrote:
The bible says you must be born of the Spirit, but what exactly does
that mean?-a For me it meant becoming a Christian and having your life
transformed, believing in Paul's description of no longer being
conformed to the World's standard, but something new struck me a few
weeks ago, and maybe I was wrong.
My understanding is it is a shift from being self-centred to being God- centred. "Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ
Jesus." [Romans 6:11] Also, "rCLIt is no longer I who live, but Christ
lives in me.rCY [Gal.2:20]
To me, the whole New Testament message centres around Christ's commands
to love God, and to love your neighbour. Both of these are about looking away from self and out to God and to others.
This is about selflessness, but I would be careful to point out that it
does not mean not looking after ourselves. Indeed, we are told to love others 'As we love ourselves'. We should remember that we also are made
in God's Image, and not just those around us.
So it's looking after ourselves, but avoiding being selfish at the
expense of others, or centring on self.
Two things: Putting God rather than self at the centre of our being.
Also, the central point is always Love God and Neighbour.
On 23/02/2026 21:58, John wrote:
The bible says you must be born of the Spirit, but what exactly doesI think the main point of the expression is that you cannot remake
that mean?-a For me it meant becoming a Christian and having your life
transformed, believing in Paul's description of no longer being
conformed to the World's standard, but something new struck me a few
weeks ago, and maybe I was wrong.
yourself, you have to ask God to do it for you. This takes the emphasis
away from anything you might consciously do - "works", to use the usual terminology.
However the second point is that what is involved is not just tinkering
with a few bad habits. You are starting on a completely new life, just
as if you were re-born into a new existence.
On 24/02/2026 07:54, Timreason wrote:
On 23/02/2026 21:58, John wrote:
The bible says you must be born of the Spirit, but what exactly does
that mean?-a For me it meant becoming a Christian and having your life
transformed, believing in Paul's description of no longer being
conformed to the World's standard, but something new struck me a few
weeks ago, and maybe I was wrong.
My understanding is it is a shift from being self-centred to being
God- centred. "Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in
Christ Jesus." [Romans 6:11] Also, "rCLIt is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me.rCY [Gal.2:20]
To me, the whole New Testament message centres around Christ's
commands to love God, and to love your neighbour. Both of these are
about looking away from self and out to God and to others.
This is about selflessness, but I would be careful to point out that
it does not mean not looking after ourselves. Indeed, we are told to
love others 'As we love ourselves'. We should remember that we also
are made in God's Image, and not just those around us.
So it's looking after ourselves, but avoiding being selfish at the
expense of others, or centring on self.
Two things: Putting God rather than self at the centre of our being.
Also, the central point is always Love God and Neighbour.
Yes I would agree, with the caveat that it is the Holy Spirit who brings about that change, although obviously the Christian has to continue
walking in the light.
Is it t is this a Christian idea, or was it required of the Jews as
well, did they need to be born again?
The reason I ask is because I'm not aware of this happening in the OT.
Jews took their burn't offerings to the alter once a year to repent, and whilst I'm sure that an habitual sinner would be desecrating that
offering, it was all that was required for the average Jew.
Yep, I agree with that, however the reason I'm asking is this seems to
be a Christian belief, rather than something which has come from the OT.
The reason I ask is because I'm not aware of this happening in the OT.I agree that that might seem a somewhat mechanical approach to God:
Jews took their burn't offerings to the alter once a year to repent, and whilst I'm sure that an habitual sinner would be desecrating that
offering, it was all that was required for the average Jew.
I'm no expert. But I think the nature of the Covenant was different for them, a Covenant specifically for the Jews. Our New Covenant is offered
to all peoples, and not just the Jews. I won't say any more, on account
of my lack of knowledge in this area. It's best if I avoid talking from
an orifice not usually associated with communication...
I agree that that might seem a somewhat mechanical approach to God:
offer a goat, get your sins forgiven. Solomon's prayer at the
dedication of his temple, seems to me to point towards a deeper aspect
to the worship of God than just sin-sacrifice-repeat
I'm not sure, I think he was more instrumental in establishing the
instituion of ritual sacrifice. Parts of his prayer (e.g. the direction
to face Jerusalem) seem to me to foreshadow the idolatry into which he
would slip in falling away from God. Solomon built the temple with much iniquity, the blood of forced labour, etc. all of which point to the
building of the jerusalem temple as a financial institution, which
sustained itself rather than a place of worship of God
On 25/02/2026 12:43, John wrote:
On 24/02/2026 07:54, Timreason wrote:
Two things: Putting God rather than self at the centre of our being.
Also, the central point is always Love God and Neighbour.
Yes I would agree, with the caveat that it is the Holy Spirit who
brings about that change, although obviously the Christian has to
continue walking in the light.
Indeed. We are told that our bodies are 'Temples of the Holy Spirit'.
[1 Corinthians 6:19rCo20] That is another way of saying that God, rather than self, is at the centre of our being.
Is it t is this a Christian idea, or was it required of the Jews as
well, did they need to be born again?
I'm no expert. But I think the nature of the Covenant was different for them, a Covenant specifically for the Jews. Our New Covenant is offered
to all peoples, and not just the Jews. I won't say any more, on account
of my lack of knowledge in this area. It's best if I avoid talking from
an orifice not usually associated with communication...
On 25/02/2026 12:43, John wrote:
The reason I ask is because I'm not aware of this happening in the OT.I agree that that might seem a somewhat mechanical approach to God:
Jews took their burn't offerings to the alter once a year to repent,
and whilst I'm sure that an habitual sinner would be desecrating that
offering, it was all that was required for the average Jew.
offer a goat, get your sins forgiven. Solomon's prayer at the dedication
of his temple, seems to me to point towards a deeper aspect to the
worship of God than just sin-sacrifice-repeat
On 25/02/2026 12:48, John wrote:
Yep, I agree with that, however the reason I'm asking is this seems to
be a Christian belief, rather than something which has come from the OT.
The whole thing seems to come from Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus,
which of course was a New Testament event.
In Old Testament times you had to join the nation of Israel in order to worship Israel's God, so that would deal with the changed lives bit of
the concept. In addition, it is in the old Testament that we find the promise "I will take away their stony heart and give them a heart of
flesh" and also "I will write My laws on their hearts". Both seem to me
to be akin to the Christian "New Birth" requirement.
Jesus didn't come for the Christians, He came for the Jews (I'm aware He also said about the other fold, but that wasn't His primary reason. It recently dawned on me that it was an odd thing to say to a teacher of
the Law, when it wasn't a requisite for the Jews, and the majority of Christians applying it to the new birth.
Most Christians believe this was after Pentecost.
Your input is as much valued as anyone elses Tim. I'm merely following a hypothesis, see my reply to Ken.Spiritual wisdom is not doled out with your degree from Oxford. It comes
On 26/02/2026 12:33, John wrote:
Jesus didn't come for the Christians, He came for the Jews (I'm aware
He also said about the other fold, but that wasn't His primary reason.
It recently dawned on me that it was an odd thing to say to a teacher
of the Law, when it wasn't a requisite for the Jews, and the majority
of Christians applying it to the new birth.
On the contrary, Jesus expressed surprise that Nicodemus needed to be
told about the new birth (John 3:10), which indicates to me that new
birth was indeed an Old Testament requirement - it was just phrased differently. See below:
Most Christians believe this was after Pentecost.
The promise to give a new heart is from Jeremiah 31. Certainly that is
what happened to those who were baptised at Pentecost, but it was on
offer well before Pentecost.
Jews might wish you to believe that they are or were saved simply
because they are descended from Abraham. St Paul, himself a Jew,
dismissed that idea in Galatians, pointing out that the true descendents
of Abraham are those who act like him and believe God as he did.
Physical descent may give you right to the earthly Canaan, it does not guarantee you a place in the heavenly Canaan.
Really?-a I understand Jeremiah was born roughly BC650, so well after the rules God laid down to Moses.
It wasn't until AD28 ish when this became a reality for those not Jewish.
When would you say that actually came about, for the Jews?
I akin them very much the same as Muslims, who follow the religion in
most cases is because they are born into it.
For sure, but you have to remember that this is Paul writing as a
believer of Christ, he wouldn't have believed that as a God fearing Jew.
Are you suggesting that the yearly sacrifices were worthless and it was
only those with faith in God who go on to eternal life.
On 28/02/2026 13:26, John wrote:
Really?-a I understand Jeremiah was born roughly BC650, so well after
the rules God laid down to Moses.
Correct.
It wasn't until AD28 ish when this became a reality for those not Jewish.
No, I believe that salvation has always been on the same basis of faith
in God and the indwelling of His Spirit.
When would you say that actually came about, for the Jews?
It has always been the case, for Jews and non-Jews.
On 28/02/2026 13:26, John wrote:
Are you suggesting that the yearly sacrifices were worthless and it
was only those with faith in God who go on to eternal life.
Only those with faith are saved. See Amos 5:21-24 for God's opinion of sacrifices and other religious observances without faith.
But no, they were not worthless. God had ordained them and offering a sacrifice accompanied by faith made it acceptable and pleasing as
obedience to God always is when motivated by love and faith. Without
those, killing an animal was no more salvific (to use a horrible term)
than butchering any animal for food.
| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 59 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 19:44:27 |
| Calls: | 810 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 1,287 |
| D/L today: |
10 files (21,017K bytes) |
| Messages: | 194,291 |