It's not a doctrine I really believed in, but what does one make of
bible passages such as Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:11-1 and 2:8-9 etc?
On 09/02/2026 17:45, John wrote:
It's not a doctrine I really believed in, but what does one make of
bible passages such as Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:11-1 and 2:8-9 etc?
Ephesians 2:8, 9 has no relevance to the question of "once saved always saved".
Ephesians 1:11ff speaks of predestination, which is another subject.
Romans 8:35-39 assures us that no one and no thing can take us out of
God's hands. That is, no external power can take us out of God's hands -
and there are plenty of other verses which say the same thing. However
you can, by culpable carelessness or deliberate choice, take yourself
out of God's hands.
So if you allow busy-ness to keep you from prayer and Bible study, your spirituality is going to suffer and you will drift away from God. If you stop attending church and worshipping with other Christians, the same applies. If you allow yourself to be deceived by riches and start to
make money your God, you will end up worshipping Mammon in place of God.
My experience is that God does not let go of you lightly and will do all
in His power to wake you up to your spiritual peril, but in the last
resort He will not force you to be a Christian. He will not drag you, kicking and screaming, into heaven.
However you can, by culpable carelessness or deliberate choice, take
yourself out of God's hands.
Is that biblical?-a Ephesians 1:14 springs to mind.
My experience is that God does not let go of you lightly and will do
all in His power to wake you up to your spiritual peril, but in the
last resort He will not force you to be a Christian. He will not drag
you, kicking and screaming, into heaven.
If only that were true.
On 13/02/2026 15:09, John wrote:
However you can, by culpable carelessness or deliberate choice,
take yourself out of God's hands.
Is that biblical? Ephesians 1:14 springs to mind.
What relevance does that verse have to my statement?
It is a fact that people who were once Christians later fall away from Christ. The Biblical Demas springs to mind. Jesus promises that no one
can take us out of His hand (and there are other similar people in
Scripture as well as daily life) yet here is someone who is no longer
in Jesus' hand (so to speak). Either Jesus' promise is worthless or
there is another explanation.
I think God's respect for freewill - after all, He gave us that
facility - is the explanation.
My experience is that God does not let go of you lightly and will
do all in His power to wake you up to your spiritual peril, but in
the last resort He will not force you to be a Christian. He will
not drag you, kicking and screaming, into heaven.
If only that were true.
You mean, God will drag you kicking and screaming into heaven?
If he gave us the facility it was only so that we could lose it to satan
and his hierarchy at the first opportunuity and then live a life unto
death of debt and slavery.
If I'm not going "to go to heaven" (in your words) because I exercised
my god given free will but because god didn't like it, i don't think
it's my fault, 1) it's god's fault for giving me free will in the first,
it's his responsibility.
2) giving me "free will" and expecting me to
behave according to some pattern which invalidates the notion of "free
will" is it really free will?
You'll be well advised to drop the free will arguments, the dialectic isThat I entirely fail to see. The fact that there are good people in the
one of deception and rightly belongs to satan starting from the
reformation and through enlightenment.
If you've been sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing your
inheritance and Paul says nothing can seperate the Christian from
Christ, then it has everything to do with it.-a There's also an argument that if you do pull away from God and you are ensnared back in the
world, then Christ is defeated and the devil has won. Would God allow
that to happen?
I can't recall anything in the New Testament of a Spirit filled
Christian turning away from God.
2. These people were never Christian (and that includes me) I already
had in mind to start this topic, but was further prompted by a post on threads.-a (Similar to Twitter (X))
Thats a bloody good question. I was born again, a dramatic conversion
where (even though I thought I was good) my life was transformed. I was
a spiritualist prior and had deliverance. For 5 years I believed wholeheartedly in Jesus, but then lost my faith. Came back to Christ
twice for a brief time but it wasn't real. Was i truly saved, or did I
fall for the charismatic movement that "saved" me?
I don't have the knowledge of his presence, and if what you say is true
I believe I would.-a I've attempted to follow Jesus in my own strength
but found it impossible to do.
Much I may regret it if the Christian message is correct, I have to beI don't see why. Christianity is about being true to God. You don't
true to me.
On 15/02/2026 19:30, John wrote:
If you've been sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing your
inheritance and Paul says nothing can seperate the Christian from
Christ, then it has everything to do with it.-a There's also an
argument that if you do pull away from God and you are ensnared back
in the world, then Christ is defeated and the devil has won. Would God
allow that to happen?
The answer is clearly "Yes", for God does indeed allow that to happen.
I can't recall anything in the New Testament of a Spirit filled
Christian turning away from God.
Paul's endorsement of Demas is an indication that he was Spirit-filled before turning away from God.
2. These people were never Christian (and that includes me) I already
had in mind to start this topic, but was further prompted by a post on
threads.-a (Similar to Twitter (X))
That is the argument advanced by the "once saved always saved" mob. It
is, of course, impossible to disprove, but in my opinion if someone
walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, etc.
Thats a bloody good question. I was born again, a dramatic conversion
where (even though I thought I was good) my life was transformed. I
was a spiritualist prior and had deliverance. For 5 years I believed
wholeheartedly in Jesus, but then lost my faith. Came back to Christ
twice for a brief time but it wasn't real. Was i truly saved, or did I
fall for the charismatic movement that "saved" me?
I think you were mislead by the charismatic movement into thinking that
some emotional experience was "salvation". When the emotion was no
longer there, you thought that you were no longer a Christian.
That is the same category of mistake as made by people who feel that
once the glow of the honeymoon has faded and been replaced by the
drudgery of kids and bills and familiarity, that therefore the whole marriage was a sham, they were never really in love, and must seek for
some new partner with whom they can recreated the emotional glow.
I don't have the knowledge of his presence, and if what you say is
true I believe I would.-a I've attempted to follow Jesus in my own
strength but found it impossible to do.
You mean, you don't feel the emotion you once felt as you raised your
hands in the air and sang the 57th repetition of the praise song.
Much I may regret it if the Christian message is correct, I have to be
true to me.
I don't see why. Christianity is about being true to God. You don't
enter into it. Your feelings are unimportant. You are married, whether
you look across the cornflakes and feel a rush of emotion towards the
woman on the other side of the table or merely note that her hair is a
mess. Marriage is not about you being true to you, it is about you being true to your wife.
Christianity is not about being true to yourself, it is about being trueCan I ask you a question. I'm assuming you don't deliberately sin. Can
to God, even when you don't feel like it
Which is why I think Christianity is flawed.-a You made no comment on my first sentence, but if you have been sealed that means your inheritance
is guaranteed.
it says he deserted Paul, not Christianity, although you could be right.
My impression of Paul is that he believed in OSAS, based n other
passages, but I could be wrong.
One Sunday at church the Pastor bleated on that our prayers
should be long and deep, and it hurt inside because I knew mine weren't.
I later found out from reading the bible the Pastor was wrong,
but if the bible says God will not test you
beyond what you can bear, and you find you are, then you reach the conclusion I have.
If the bible says x and y happens, which one is right? That was the
first, which made me a weaker Christian. The second (perhaps my fault)
made me even weaker.-a The third was the staw which broke the camel's back.
Whatever it was it meant that Christianity wasn't real to me, you
apparently can go years without a word from a loved one and still
believe that they love you. They show that love to your friends and keep
in touch with them (allegedly) but they totaly ignore you.
I know Shirley isn't with you now but if she was, and one day she upped
and left without a word and you never heard from her again, would you
still feel the same? Please understand I'm not bitter about that, I
still sort of believe that there is a God, or at the very least a
supreme being, but since becoming agnostic I don't believe the bible is,
er, Gospel.-a If God, as depicted in the new testament, was real I do believe He would still be in touch with me in the present.
Can I ask you a question. I'm assuming-a you don't deliberately sin.-a CanWhich particular sin? I don't commit murder because that is against the
I ask why you don't, is it because a 2,000 year old book says you
shouldn't?
On 18/02/2026 15:50, John wrote:
Which is why I think Christianity is flawed.-a You made no comment on
my first sentence, but if you have been sealed that means your
inheritance is guaranteed.
The word "sealed" has two meanings. Back in the days when not every one
was literate, people had seals. They would stamp or roll their seal on something as a mark of ownership or at the end of a letter as a form of authentication. Because such marks were sometimes placed on the mud or
wax which closed a container, the secondary meaning of "closing" developed.
The Holy Spirit is given to show that you are owned by God, not to close
you off from any possibility of change.
it says he deserted Paul, not Christianity, although you could be
right. My impression of Paul is that he believed in OSAS, based n
other passages, but I could be wrong.
Paul says that Demas "loved the world", an expression which implies
rather more than just leaving Paul.
One Sunday at church the Pastor bleated on that our prayers should be
long and deep, and it hurt inside because I knew mine weren't.
What a load of rubbish! In John 17 you have a long prayer offered by
Jesus on behalf of His disciples. A short time later you have the very
short "Father, let this cup pass from Me". I fully appreciate your characterisation of the pastor's words as "bleating"! To claim that
prayers should be of any particular length is absolute rubbish. Your
story merely bears out what I said: you were given false beliefs and expectations. When those expectations failed to materialise, you
concluded that Christianity per se was false, rather than that you had become trapped in a false form of Christianity.
but if the bible says God will not test you beyond what you can bear,
and you find you are, then you reach the conclusion I have.
Possibly because it wasn't God testing you!
If the bible says x and y happens, which one is right? That was the
first, which made me a weaker Christian. The second (perhaps my fault)
made me even weaker.-a The third was the staw which broke the camel's
back.
Did the Bible *really* say x? Or was it just some particular preacher or denomination which claimed that the Bible says x?
Whatever it was it meant that Christianity wasn't real to me, you
apparently can go years without a word from a loved one and still
believe that they love you. They show that love to your friends and
keep in touch with them (allegedly) but they totaly ignore you.
The sad thing is that the turnover in these charismatic churches is appalling. My impression is that a charismatic Christian lasts about
five years, after which they either quit Christianity entirely (as you
have done) or move on to a different church where the singing is
livelier, the preacher newer, the doctrines even more wacky. Then the
cycle repeats.
Whereas what I am used to - and what I see in mainstream churches - is
that people read the Bible for themselves, are convicted that God is
real, and then stay with the church for decades if not for their whole
life.
I know Shirley isn't with you now but if she was, and one day she
upped and left without a word and you never heard from her again,
would you still feel the same? Please understand I'm not bitter about
that, I still sort of believe that there is a God, or at the very
least a supreme being, but since becoming agnostic I don't believe the
bible is, er, Gospel.-a If God, as depicted in the new testament, was
real I do believe He would still be in touch with me in the present.
But what do you mean by "in touch"? I suspect you are still hankering
after some emotional experience. To go back to the marriage analogy,
true marriage is the occasional peck on the cheek as your wife carries
the washing basket past, it is not getting hot and heavy on the sofa 18 hours out of the 24.
Can I ask you a question. I'm assuming-a you don't deliberately sin.
Can I ask why you don't, is it because a 2,000 year old book says you
shouldn't?
Which particular sin? I don't commit murder because that is against the
law of the land (as well as in the Bible). I don't break the Sabbath
because of what the 2,000 year old book says. I was faithful to my wife because of the book and also because I loved her.
Fine, did the phrase guaranteeing youyr inheritance also have a
different eaning back then?
I never said that, but that's an important point, because becoming a Christian is meant to bring about a whole change in your outlook and
your behaviour.-a If it doesn't is it really Christianity.
That's quite an interesting observation, not one I necessarily disagree with, but that then begs the question which started the topic. Was I
ever a Christian?-a I think you've said before that you believe I was,
but if Charismaticism is false, then so was my conversion, unless you believe you can be born again through that movement, which wouldn't make sense.
Possibly because it wasn't God testing you!
Please explain.
The bible (or at least my understanding of it) We've been over this
before, your (and others) explanation didn't appease me, but I'm going
to reserve that for a different topic (in general terms)
A rather cynical view, Tim moved into a much quieter version of Christianity.-a Sadly that's not for me because, despite my misgivings on charismaticism, the worship was, I believe, close to how the early Christians worshipped.
It wasn't just the worship, I genuinely felt a connection between me and God. I disagree with your view this was an emotional connection whipped
up by a happy clappy atmosphere, but I'm not saying you're wrong.
I've read the New Testament (1) many times, both as a Christian and
since leaving Christianity. As a Christian I often learned new things,
which I believed God was showing me.-a Since leaving Christainity they
are just words in a book. As a non Christian I can also see the flaws
that I didn't see as a Christian.
Out of interest, do you have a connection with God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit other than through the bible?
If she wasn't in my life, and I had only a vague idea where she was, but heard from friends she was in touch with them, but refused to contact me
to let me know she was there, then I would assume she didn't love me, especially if she disapeared one day without leaving a note.
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