• difference in quality of sound between dvd and cd

    From Brian Gaff@brian1gaff@gmail.com to uk.rec.audio on Sun Jul 23 18:38:53 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    I bought a Cd of an artist last year and it came with a free dvd of the same concert. The CD compared with the DVD sound, seems brash to me. Is this something others have encountered as it is not the first time I've found
    this. It suggests on the documentation that the audio sample rate is 96khz, but of course we all know CD uses 44.1 khz.
    Brian
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  • From Adrian Caspersz@email@here.invalid to uk.rec.audio on Mon Jul 24 06:50:56 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On 7/23/23 18:38, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I bought a Cd of an artist last year and it came with a free dvd of the same concert. The CD compared with the DVD sound, seems brash to me. Is this something others have encountered as it is not the first time I've found this. It suggests on the documentation that the audio sample rate is 96khz, but of course we all know CD uses 44.1 khz.

    A DVD in audio is many different things. Bit-rate, Bit-depth, Lossy Compression, Dynamic range compression, Multi-channel, Surround encoded,
    and the DVD-Audio audio only format.

    CD is CD (mostly).
    --
    Adrian C

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  • From Brian Gaff@brian1gaff@gmail.com to uk.rec.audio on Mon Jul 24 10:22:59 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order to impress
    the general public that they really know what they are doing.
    I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of the dvd was smooth
    and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the CD seemed to have a bit of a
    hump around 5khz and sounded a bit rough to me. Could be just poor choices
    for the audio mix, but one would have thought that since they already had a good recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more tracks on the DDVD.
    Brian
    --

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    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Adrian Caspersz" <email@here.invalid> wrote in message news:ki6hq0Fsvj8U1@mid.individual.net...
    On 7/23/23 18:38, Brian Gaff wrote:
    I bought a Cd of an artist last year and it came with a free dvd of the
    same
    concert. The CD compared with the DVD sound, seems brash to me. Is this
    something others have encountered as it is not the first time I've found
    this. It suggests on the documentation that the audio sample rate is
    96khz,
    but of course we all know CD uses 44.1 khz.

    A DVD in audio is many different things. Bit-rate, Bit-depth, Lossy Compression, Dynamic range compression, Multi-channel, Surround encoded,
    and the DVD-Audio audio only format.

    CD is CD (mostly).

    --
    Adrian C



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  • From spam@spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) to uk.rec.audio on Fri Jul 28 11:24:59 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:22:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order to impress >the general public that they really know what they are doing.
    I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of the dvd was smooth
    and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the CD seemed to have a bit of a >hump around 5khz and sounded a bit rough to me. Could be just poor choices >for the audio mix, but one would have thought that since they already had a >good recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more tracks >on the DDVD.
    Brian

    If there is a difference it will be down to mastering. There will be
    no difference due to the digital formats.

    d
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  • From Woody@harrogate3@ntlworld.com to uk.rec.audio on Fri Jul 28 16:16:59 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On Fri 28/07/2023 12:24, Don Pearce wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:22:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order to impress >> the general public that they really know what they are doing.
    I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of the dvd was smooth
    and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the CD seemed to have a bit of a
    hump around 5khz and sounded a bit rough to me. Could be just poor choices >> for the audio mix, but one would have thought that since they already had a >> good recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more tracks >> on the DDVD.
    Brian

    If there is a difference it will be down to mastering. There will be
    no difference due to the digital formats.


    I would dispute that. A CD samples at 44100/sec in 16bit, whereas a DVD typically samples at 96000/second in 24bit. That suggests there is much
    more latent bandwidth on a DVD so it must surely sound different/better?
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  • From Bob Latham@bob@sick-of-spam.invalid to uk.rec.audio on Fri Jul 28 17:37:37 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    In article <ua0m5c$296v1$1@dont-email.me>,
    Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
    On Fri 28/07/2023 12:24, Don Pearce wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:22:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order
    to impress the general public that they really know what they
    are doing. I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of
    the dvd was smooth and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the
    CD seemed to have a bit of a hump around 5khz and sounded a bit
    rough to me. Could be just poor choices for the audio mix, but
    one would have thought that since they already had a good
    recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more
    tracks on the DDVD. Brian

    If there is a difference it will be down to mastering. There will
    be no difference due to the digital formats.


    I would dispute that. A CD samples at 44100/sec in 16bit, whereas a
    DVD typically samples at 96000/second in 24bit. That suggests there
    is much more latent bandwidth on a DVD so it must surely sound different/better?

    In my experience, once you get to CD quality 44K1 16bit any
    improvements above that are extremely subtle indeed.

    Bob.

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  • From spam@spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) to uk.rec.audio on Fri Jul 28 20:01:31 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 16:16:59 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri 28/07/2023 12:24, Don Pearce wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:22:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order to impress >>> the general public that they really know what they are doing.
    I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of the dvd was smooth >>> and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the CD seemed to have a bit of a >>> hump around 5khz and sounded a bit rough to me. Could be just poor choices >>> for the audio mix, but one would have thought that since they already had a >>> good recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more tracks
    on the DDVD.
    Brian

    If there is a difference it will be down to mastering. There will be
    no difference due to the digital formats.


    I would dispute that. A CD samples at 44100/sec in 16bit, whereas a DVD >typically samples at 96000/second in 24bit. That suggests there is much
    more latent bandwidth on a DVD so it must surely sound different/better?

    No. Once you have encompassed the audible range, which CD does (more
    than does for us older chaps) then there is zero extra information in
    a higher sample rate. And of course the umber of bits only affects the
    level of the noise floor, and in any recording made acoustically that
    is a long way below the recorded sound.
    So no, 96/24 does not sound any better than 44.1/16

    d
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  • From Brian Gaff@brian1gaff@gmail.com to uk.rec.audio on Sat Jul 29 12:16:23 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    Not sure I believe that. The issue one supposes is whether the sample rate
    and bit depth are accurate when mastered and replayed. Back at the start of CDs, the CD 100 sounded better than the Sony first model to my ears.
    The difference speck wise was the Philips used dual 14 bit 2 times oversampling on playback, the Sony used one 16 bit one shared or time sliced so that there was a very slight phase shift between channels. However as accuracy increased, although the sound improved, it really could not be
    heard past a certain point, until that was DVds came out and the whole thing became less strained. After all there must be fewer bits to encode at
    44.1Khz of hf audio than on 96 bit sampling. That would suggest to me that
    the waveform start wuld be less accurate on a CD, Add in the higher 24 bit systems and in theory, the sound should be less edgy. Of course if you stick crap in, yyou get crap out, and many modern digital recordings seem to be
    the digital equivalent of Phil Spectors wall of sound, no dynamic range but loud. There is no need for it really, since with a digital signal, if you
    need it to sound like that a simple algorithm should do it at playback.
    Brian
    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message news:64c41e18.17296453@news.eternal-september.org...
    On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 16:16:59 +0100, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri 28/07/2023 12:24, Don Pearce wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:22:59 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yes I know, these companies like to big up their part, in order to
    impress
    the general public that they really know what they are doing.
    I have to say though, that the stereo presentation of the dvd was
    smooth
    and pretty much what I'd expect, wheras the CD seemed to have a bit of >>>> a
    hump around 5khz and sounded a bit rough to me. Could be just poor
    choices
    for the audio mix, but one would have thought that since they already >>>> had a
    good recording they would use that. plus of course you got three more >>>> tracks
    on the DDVD.
    Brian

    If there is a difference it will be down to mastering. There will be
    no difference due to the digital formats.


    I would dispute that. A CD samples at 44100/sec in 16bit, whereas a DVD >>typically samples at 96000/second in 24bit. That suggests there is much >>more latent bandwidth on a DVD so it must surely sound different/better?

    No. Once you have encompassed the audible range, which CD does (more
    than does for us older chaps) then there is zero extra information in
    a higher sample rate. And of course the umber of bits only affects the
    level of the noise floor, and in any recording made acoustically that
    is a long way below the recorded sound.
    So no, 96/24 does not sound any better than 44.1/16

    d


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  • From spam@spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) to uk.rec.audio on Sat Jul 29 19:02:57 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 12:16:23 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Not sure I believe that. The issue one supposes is whether the sample rate >and bit depth are accurate when mastered and replayed. Back at the start of >CDs, the CD 100 sounded better than the Sony first model to my ears.
    The difference speck wise was the Philips used dual 14 bit 2 times
    oversampling on playback, the Sony used one 16 bit one shared or time sliced >so that there was a very slight phase shift between channels. However as >accuracy increased, although the sound improved, it really could not be >heard past a certain point, until that was DVds came out and the whole thing >became less strained. After all there must be fewer bits to encode at >44.1Khz of hf audio than on 96 bit sampling. That would suggest to me that >the waveform start wuld be less accurate on a CD, Add in the higher 24 bit >systems and in theory, the sound should be less edgy. Of course if you stick >crap in, yyou get crap out, and many modern digital recordings seem to be >the digital equivalent of Phil Spectors wall of sound, no dynamic range but >loud. There is no need for it really, since with a digital signal, if you >need it to sound like that a simple algorithm should do it at playback.
    Brian

    Don't use those early players as a model for bit rate and depth. They
    had real problems implementing a decent DAC, and many of them truly
    did sound bad. But like it or not, harshness is not a property of
    44.1/16 andy more than 192/24. It simply doesn't happen. As I said,
    all 192 gives you is frequencies outside the audible range. In fact
    these are likely to sound worse if they cause intermods in an amp or
    speaker. 44.1 is perfect. The same goes for 16 bits. This can't cause
    harshness either. It just sets the noise floor. And it sets it
    probably 30dB below the analogue noise on a decent recording.

    d
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  • From Brian Gaff@brian1gaff@gmail.com to uk.rec.audio on Sun Jul 30 13:32:31 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    OK on another tack. I notice the current crop of digital recorders you can
    buy are floating point. I'm just guessing that this must give you much more dynamic range, and no running out of bits nasty sounding clipping. My mind boggles at how this is done. as there has to in that case some way to vary
    the scaling as you record. What it seems to allow is not worrying about the level and the ability to have a good recording with low noise and no
    clipping, which to me in other than an interview scenario, would equate to a dynamic range greater than we could actually hear.
    Brian
    --

    --:
    This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
    The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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    Blind user, so no pictures please
    Note this Signature is meaningless.!
    "Don Pearce" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message news:64c5618d.43537671@news.eternal-september.org...
    On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 12:16:23 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    Not sure I believe that. The issue one supposes is whether the sample rate >>and bit depth are accurate when mastered and replayed. Back at the start >>of
    CDs, the CD 100 sounded better than the Sony first model to my ears.
    The difference speck wise was the Philips used dual 14 bit 2 times >>oversampling on playback, the Sony used one 16 bit one shared or time >>sliced
    so that there was a very slight phase shift between channels. However as >>accuracy increased, although the sound improved, it really could not be >>heard past a certain point, until that was DVds came out and the whole >>thing
    became less strained. After all there must be fewer bits to encode at >>44.1Khz of hf audio than on 96 bit sampling. That would suggest to me that >>the waveform start wuld be less accurate on a CD, Add in the higher 24 >>bit
    systems and in theory, the sound should be less edgy. Of course if you >>stick
    crap in, yyou get crap out, and many modern digital recordings seem to be >>the digital equivalent of Phil Spectors wall of sound, no dynamic range >>but
    loud. There is no need for it really, since with a digital signal, if you >>need it to sound like that a simple algorithm should do it at playback.
    Brian

    Don't use those early players as a model for bit rate and depth. They
    had real problems implementing a decent DAC, and many of them truly
    did sound bad. But like it or not, harshness is not a property of
    44.1/16 andy more than 192/24. It simply doesn't happen. As I said,
    all 192 gives you is frequencies outside the audible range. In fact
    these are likely to sound worse if they cause intermods in an amp or
    speaker. 44.1 is perfect. The same goes for 16 bits. This can't cause harshness either. It just sets the noise floor. And it sets it
    probably 30dB below the analogue noise on a decent recording.

    d


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  • From spam@spam@spam.com (Don Pearce) to uk.rec.audio on Sun Jul 30 20:29:53 2023
    From Newsgroup: uk.rec.audio

    On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 13:32:31 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
    <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

    OK on another tack. I notice the current crop of digital recorders you can >buy are floating point. I'm just guessing that this must give you much more >dynamic range, and no running out of bits nasty sounding clipping. My mind >boggles at how this is done. as there has to in that case some way to vary >the scaling as you record. What it seems to allow is not worrying about the >level and the ability to have a good recording with low noise and no >clipping, which to me in other than an interview scenario, would equate to a >dynamic range greater than we could actually hear.
    Brian

    --

    No. Floating point doesn't give you more dynamic range. What it doe is
    allow you to do whatever signal manipulation you like without
    re-dithering every time you change something. If you are working in
    integers this is necessary. You re-dither just once at the end when
    the signal is converted back to integer for output to the DAC.

    d
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