From Newsgroup: uk.railway

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3 were unoccupied and the ones that were occupied had small
women sitting in them. Certainly a normal sized man, never mind a large one, has no chance of occupying the middle seat without pushing the people either side out of the way. So why do train companies persist with this layout?

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway


boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Interior.jpg

were unoccupied and the ones that were occupied had small
women sitting in them. Certainly a normal sized man, never mind a large one, has no chance of occupying the middle seat without pushing the people either side out of the way. So why do train companies persist with this layout?

Might be okay for a child.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3 were unoccupied and the ones that were occupied had small women sitting in them. Certainly a normal sized man, never mind a large one, has no chance of occupying the middle seat without pushing the people either side out of the way. So why do train companies persist with this layout?

The DfT formula for TOC bids favoured longer distance new trains with more seats, and shorter distance trains with more standing room. In both cases,
that leads to cramped, narrow seats with tight legroom, but looked good on
the DfTrCOs spreadsheet.

But, as you say, passengers donrCOt like them.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled: >boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Interio
r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:22:59 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3 were unoccupied and the ones that were occupied had small
women sitting in them. Certainly a normal sized man, never mind a large one, >> has no chance of occupying the middle seat without pushing the people either >> side out of the way. So why do train companies persist with this layout?

The DfT formula for TOC bids favoured longer distance new trains with more >seats, and shorter distance trains with more standing room. In both cases, >that leads to cramped, narrow seats with tight legroom, but looked good on >the DfTrCOs spreadsheet.

But, as you say, passengers donrCOt like them.

I wonder if any of the civil servants who make these decisions ever travel
on trains when they're crowded.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled: >>boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats >>> of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Interio
r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

https://youtu.be/0k7xzzWOhis?si=VXTAnwMFY9Drd1p5

They do look very cramped, with no spacers between adjacent seats, and narrow aisles. But I bet they looked great on the
DfT spreadsheet!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg/3840px-GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg?utm_source=commons.wikimedia.org&utm_campaign=index&utm_content=thumbnail
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On 15/05/2026 11:23, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

I wonder if any of the civil servants who make these decisions ever travel
on trains when they're crowded.

A good read would be the previous two editions of Modern Railways, where
the procurement of the IET fleet was studied. Total fuck up start to
finish.
The DfT gave out a pre-contract 'want' list. Lower weight, more seats,
less energy use, more powerful, less breakdowns etc.
Every one of those was compromised in the end, and the trains cost over
double what the existing fleet did. Hitachi did well in getting the
order, there were other better options out there, and with so many
revisions, the other Makers would have done a better job, but they were discounted as not meeting the original specifications, yet Hitachi met few/none of them too once the revisions were made.
It was a complete farce start to finish, ad anyone who says
nationalising things makes better value for taxpayers really needs to
read those articles, to see how useless the DfT are.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled:

boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats >>>> of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Interio
r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

https://youtu.be/0k7xzzWOhis?si=VXTAnwMFY9Drd1p5

They do look very cramped, with no spacers between adjacent seats, and
narrow aisles. But I bet they looked great on the
DfT spreadsheet!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg/3840px-GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg?utm_source=commons.wikimedia.org&utm_campaign=index&utm_content=thumbnail

IrCOve been on 720s twice, on two legs of a single journey. It was the
middle of the day and there were relatively few passengers. The trains
felt clean, quiet, airy and not at all cramped, but IrCOm sure at least some
of those characteristics would change when there are more passengers
aboard.

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway


Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> posted:

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled:

boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats >>>> of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Interio
r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

https://youtu.be/0k7xzzWOhis?si=VXTAnwMFY9Drd1p5

They do look very cramped, with no spacers between adjacent seats, and narrow aisles. But I bet they looked great on the
DfT spreadsheet!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg/3840px-GA_Class_720_Interior.jpg?utm_source=commons.wikimedia.org&utm_campaign=index&utm_content=thumbnail

IrCOve been on 720s twice, on two legs of a single journey. It was the middle of the day and there were relatively few passengers. The trains
felt clean, quiet, airy and not at all cramped, but IrCOm sure at least some of those characteristics would change when there are more passengers
aboard.

Travelled on the Porto - Vigo services. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portuguese_train_type_0600/0650?uselang=pt#/media/File:PA110138_(24462727524).jpg
Great.
Even used as 2+1, great. Not that great while used 3+2.

Regards, ULF
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 11:53:24 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled: >>>boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats >>>> of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Inter

io

r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

Yeah, it could well have been, same paint job, look roughly similar from
the outside if you're not paying much attention.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 15:34:45 +0100
Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> gabbled:

On 15/05/2026 11:23, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

I wonder if any of the civil servants who make these decisions ever travel >> on trains when they're crowded.

A good read would be the previous two editions of Modern Railways, where
the procurement of the IET fleet was studied. Total fuck up start to
finish.
The DfT gave out a pre-contract 'want' list. Lower weight, more seats,
less energy use, more powerful, less breakdowns etc.
Every one of those was compromised in the end, and the trains cost over >double what the existing fleet did. Hitachi did well in getting the
order, there were other better options out there, and with so many >revisions, the other Makers would have done a better job, but they were >discounted as not meeting the original specifications, yet Hitachi met >few/none of them too once the revisions were made.
It was a complete farce start to finish, ad anyone who says
nationalising things makes better value for taxpayers really needs to
read those articles, to see how useless the DfT are.

I wish I could say I was surprised but having worked with some civil servants for my previous contract I'm really not.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:

On 15/05/2026 11:23, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

I wonder if any of the civil servants who make these decisions ever travel >> on trains when they're crowded.

A good read would be the previous two editions of Modern Railways, where
the procurement of the IET fleet was studied. Total fuck up start to
finish.
The DfT gave out a pre-contract 'want' list. Lower weight, more seats,
less energy use, more powerful, less breakdowns etc.
Every one of those was compromised in the end, and the trains cost over double what the existing fleet did. Hitachi did well in getting the
order, there were other better options out there, and with so many revisions, the other Makers would have done a better job, but they were discounted as not meeting the original specifications, yet Hitachi met few/none of them too once the revisions were made.
It was a complete farce start to finish, ad anyone who says
nationalising things makes better value for taxpayers really needs to
read those articles, to see how useless the DfT are.

As I recall at the time, politics came into it, with strong pressure from
the Japanese embassy in London. Part of it was a threat to the promised
train factory in the northeast.

Hitachi might also have been the only bidder willing to accept the DfTrCOs demand for 26m carriages. The other bidders, with more familiarity with
British railways, knew that was too long.

I suspect there was also a belief that Hitachi trains would be better
quality and more reliable than European, particularly British-built, alternatives.

The DfT IET project was led by the late Stuart Baker, the cartographer, by
all accounts a smart, dominant character, but not an engineer. He was
convinced that tractive effort was more important than power, and wouldnrCOt listen to engineers. Roger Ford crossed swords with him many times.

None of these problems would have occurred if the procurement had been led
by a professional ROSCO.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Fri, 15 May 2026 14:57:47 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 11:53:24 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled: >>>>boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats >>>>> of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Inter

io

r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

Yeah, it could well have been, same paint job, look roughly similar from
the outside if you're not paying much attention.

It's quite an easy mistake to make if you're not a regular user.
Someone else on here recently criticised FLIRTS for being pokey and I
assumed they were making the same mistake.

On Stansted Express you get, in effect, three types of train. 745/0
(nice trains, tables, kitchen, first class (the last two not in use on
Stansted Express)); 745/1 (still nice, with level boarding, now more
tables than when introduced); class 720 (high-capacity; bright;
smooth; cramped seating and the narrowest of aisles). It's a bit of a
lottery.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway


Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> posted:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 14:57:47 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 11:53:24 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled: >>>>boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2? >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Inter

io

r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

Yeah, it could well have been, same paint job, look roughly similar from >the outside if you're not paying much attention.

It's quite an easy mistake to make if you're not a regular user.
Someone else on here recently criticised FLIRTS for being pokey and I
assumed they were making the same mistake.

See for class 74:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT#Norway
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On 15/05/2026 10:03, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3 were unoccupied and the ones that were occupied had small women sitting in them. Certainly a normal sized man, never mind a large one, has no chance of occupying the middle seat without pushing the people either side out of the way. So why do train companies persist with this layout?

With the usual pattern of alternate seats occupied, you get three people per five seat row instead of two people in a row of four seats. No, I don't like
it either. Fortunately, I've only mostly only come across it in a 150 on a longer distance rural journey.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway

On Sat, 16 May 2026 13:50:59 GMT, Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> posted:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 14:57:47 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 11:53:24 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >> >>

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled:

boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Inter

io

r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

Yeah, it could well have been, same paint job, look roughly similar from
the outside if you're not paying much attention.

It's quite an easy mistake to make if you're not a regular user.
Someone else on here recently criticised FLIRTS for being pokey and I
assumed they were making the same mistake.

See for class 74:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT#Norway

So 3+2 seating. Id the bodyshell wider than the UK variants?
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: uk.railway


Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> posted:

On Sat, 16 May 2026 13:50:59 GMT, Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> posted:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 14:57:47 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 11:53:24 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:

On Fri, 15 May 2026 10:21:35 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >> >>

On Fri, 15 May 2026 09:19:21 GMT
Ulf Kutzner <user2991@newsgrouper.org.invalid> gabbled:

boltar@caprica.universe posted:

Coming back on a crowded class 745 yesterday almost all the middle seats
of the row of 3

Did they change from 2+2?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_745#/media/File:745101_Inter

io

r.jpg

They did in the carriage I was in.

Are you sure it wasn't a class 720?

Yeah, it could well have been, same paint job, look roughly similar from >> >the outside if you're not paying much attention.

It's quite an easy mistake to make if you're not a regular user.
Someone else on here recently criticised FLIRTS for being pokey and I
assumed they were making the same mistake.

See for class 74:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT#Norway

So 3+2 seating. Id the bodyshell wider than the UK variants?

I do think so. Even larger than for CP "Rolls-Royce" class 0400. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP_Class_0400
(Could have been those which operated into Vigo.)

Ah:
Bredde 3 200 mm
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_74_(motorvognsett)

-?-+-C-+-+-# 3480 -+-+
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%9F%D0%BC https://web.archive.org/web/20161009164307/http://history.rw.by/uploads/locomotives/scheme/1200x1000/epm_shema7.png
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2