ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
-a-a of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
-a-a properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
-a-a accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
Clearly, you should rely on a bunch of amateurs on Usenet, or better
still on AI.
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
-a-a of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
-a-a properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
-a-a accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
Clearly, you should rely on a bunch of amateurs on Usenet, or better
still on AI.
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not
clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village
Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak, travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outside-the-uk
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
aa of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
aa properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
aa accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
Clearly, you should rely on a bunch of amateurs on Usenet, or better
still on AI.
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not
clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village
Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver: >https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak, >travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outs >ide-the-uk
On 30 Sep 2026 at 11:36:50 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> >wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village >>> Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231 >>
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak,
travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-out >>side-the-uk
I think their might be difficulties if the cost of travel and accommodation >was a significant fraction of the total turnover of the businesss.
On 30 Sep 2026 at 11:36:50 BST, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village >>> Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231 >>
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak,
travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outside-the-uk
I think their might be difficulties if the cost of travel and
accommodation was a significant fraction of the total turnover of the businesss.
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village
Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village
Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
-a-a of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
-a-a properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
-a-a accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not
clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village
Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak, travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outside-the-uk
On 30/09/2026 11:36, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
The rules for sole trader business expenses are pretty much the same
as if it was an incorporated company I think.
Some are, but subsistence is very different.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of Village >>> Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table, plus
the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to claim
for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the
subsistence allowance?
I guess the absolute safest option is to use the HMRC "scale rates",
although HMRC seem to think you can get meals for a fiver:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim05231
Sole traders aren't employed, and you would be absolutely right to claim
the whole cost of a meal, if reasonable.
Scale rates only apply to employees, and as you point out, are totally
dire in this day and age.
I think you can also get away with "reasonable", and personally I would
just claim the full cost... bearing in mind I would not be eating steak,
travelling by limousine, or staying at the Ritz.
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outside-the-uk
Again, this is a sole trader, not an employee.
https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btr/216-000 bottom of the page.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outs
ide-the-uk
Many thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. eg:
Barcelona, Spain
Subsistence Type-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Rate (Euros)
Over 5 hours-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 28
Over 10 hours-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 76
24 hour rate-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 101.50 plus room rate
Room rate-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 176 Breakfast-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 20 Lunch-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 24.50 Dinner-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 44.50
If actual costs, you canSorry, I should have clarified, this is also proportionate to the
also claim capital allowance at 6% of the worth of the car (100% if commercial vehicle.-a For a side hustle, mileage would invariably work
out better.
On 30/09/2026 11:57, Roland Perry wrote:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outs >>> ide-the-ukMany thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. eg:
Barcelona, Spain
Subsistence Typeaaaaaaa Rate (Euros)
Over 5 hoursaaaaaaaaaaa 28
Over 10 hoursaaaaaaaaaa 76
24 hour rateaaaaaaaaaaa 101.50 plus room rate
Room rateaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 176
Breakfastaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 20
Lunchaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 24.50
Dinneraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 44.50
You would be wrong to claim the employee allowances as a sole trader.
As I've said in my direct reply, you claim the actual costs. If the
cost is lower, you claim lower, if the cost is higher but reasonable,
you claim higher.
Having said that, those allowances are extremely generous, even by
today's prices. I'm pretty sure I could feed myself adequately at 101.5 >euros a day. In fact I managed it on less than half that on a recent >(social) trip to Europe. The dearest hotel I stayed in was 57 euros a
night (most were basic but this one in Rotterdam was really nice)
However, the difficulty (for both taxpayers and their accountants) is that >HMRC is incurably vague in spelling out its 'rules' for such claims. It
is, of course, in its interests to be vague; and to change the rules from >time to time to catch people out.
See >https://taxhelpforhustles.campaign.gov.uk/buying-or-making-things-to-sell- >and-online-selling-tax-rules/
for some of these vague rules.
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's
not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something
bought from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if
I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of
Village Fete?
45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table,
plus the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK to >>claim for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's the >>subsistence allowance?
Do the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is >>outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
ps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
aa of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
aa properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an
aa accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
You haven't looked very far, most accountants know the rules on
expenses, including me.
You can have an income of up to u1000 a year
without the need to declare your side hustle to HMRC.
Mileage at 55p* a mile for the first 10,000 miles, thereafter 25p a
mile.
Yes you can claim for postage of items purchased, I usually just
include it in the cost of the item rather than separating the postage >element. If you've travelled to a village fete, mileage** can be
claimed both ways.
There isn't a set allowance for subsistence, if the costs are
reasonable HMRC will allow. If the event you were travelling to was
beyond a days reasonable travel,
then yes, a hotel can be claimed for, together with the reasonable cost
of an evening meal and breakfast. HMRC will even allow you a pint of
beer or equivalent with your evening meal! If you were travelling the
other end of the country for a village fete I wouldn't allow, but if it
was for a trade event to look at new stock, I would.
Overseas expenditure for air fare, accommodation and subsistence is >allowable, providing the journey was absolutely necessary.
For a side hustle I would very much doubt it was. Lots of meals?
Breakfast lunch and dinner during the duration, again reasonable cost, >together with travel costs to and from the venue.
If you're just having a jolly at the taxpayers expense, and HMRC picked
up on it, you would be in deep do dah!!
* This was increased in April 2026
** It's a choice between mileage and actual costs. With actual costs
(Fuel, maintenance, repairs etc) you would only claim the percentage
used in the business.
Once you've decided on which, you have to stick to that method unless
you change your vehicle. If actual costs, you can also claim capital >allowance at 6% of the worth of the car
(100% if commercial vehicle. For a side hustle, mileage would
invariably work out better.
Before you waste time trying to fathom all that, remember that HMRC is
always right.
I'm sorry Jon, I didn't realise it was behind a paywall. Just clickedhttps://www.gov.uk/guidance/expenses-rates-for-employees-travelling-outside-the-uk
Again, this is a sole trader, not an employee.
https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btr/216-000 bottom of the page.
That just says "The legislation is almost silent on the treatment of
this all-important category of business expenditure." before it fades
out due to the paywall...
In message <119ium0$77ss$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:18:07 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
You haven't looked very far, most accountants know the rules on
expenses, including me.
Sadly, I have to disagree, based on decades of experience. The best most accountants can manage is "do 90% of the work yourself, then I'll type
the numbers into the form the HMRC requires".
You can have an income of up to -u1000 a year
I think it's *turnover* rather than *income*. BICBW
There isn't a set allowance for subsistence, if the costs are
reasonable HMRC will allow. If the event you were travelling to was
beyond a days reasonable travel,
I can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away, arriving at
8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired to drive home
safely. It does realistically need two nights in a hotel. Premier Inn averages about -u80.
then yes, a hotel can be claimed for, together with the reasonable
cost of an evening meal and breakfast.-a HMRC will even allow you a
pint of beer or equivalent with your evening meal!-a If you were
travelling the other end of the country for a village fete I wouldn't
allow, but if it was for a trade event to look at new stock, I would.
Some buying trips require two visits: one to view the auction items, bid online at home, then collect a few days later.
Overseas expenditure for air fare, accommodation and subsistence is
allowable, providing the journey was absolutely necessary.
If the trip doesn't take place, nothing is achieved. So it *is*
absolutely necessary.
In message <119inad$3jgl6$41@dont-email.me>, at 10:12:29 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
Before you waste time trying to fathom all that, remember that HMRC is >>always right.
I find that they aren't. When they audited me 25yrs ago they could find nothing wrong, and when my mother died just before COVID they took a
year or more to reply to any correspondence, which "Isn't right".
In message <119ium0$77ss$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:18:07 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's
not-a clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
-aYes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something
bought-a from me on eBay, and their percentage commission, but what if
I travel
a considerable distance to side-hustle in-person at some sort of
Village-a Fete?
-a45p/mile for the car, whatever the fee was for the trestle table,
plus-a the public liability insurance they insisted on, but is it OK
to claim-a for a hotel for the night before and/or after, and what's
the subsistence allowance?
-aDo the amounts change significantly, if the 'village' in question is
outside the UK (travel by air, rather than car, minimum two nights
in a hotel, and lots of meals)?
-aps No, I don't want to get "professional advice", because in 30yrs
-a-a-a of being in this sort of business, including being sometime a
-a-a-a properly registered and audited Ltd company, I have yet to find an >>> -a-a-a accountant who had the slightest clue about such matters.
You haven't looked very far, most accountants know the rules on
expenses, including me.
Sadly, I have to disagree, based on decades of experience. The best most accountants can manage is "do 90% of the work yourself, then I'll type
the numbers into the form the HMRC requires".
You can have an income of up to -u1000 a year
I think it's *turnover* rather than *income*. BICBW
without the need to declare your side hustle to HMRC.
Mileage at 55p* a mile for the first 10,000 miles, thereafter 25p a mile.
Thanks, I hadn't noticed the rise from 45p. I'd be well below 10k/year.
Yes you can claim for postage of items purchased, I usually just
include it in the cost of the item rather than separating the postage
element.-a If you've travelled to a village fete, mileage** can be
claimed both ways.
Of course, the same when going to collect a purchase.
There isn't a set allowance for subsistence, if the costs are
reasonable HMRC will allow. If the event you were travelling to was
beyond a days reasonable travel,
I can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away, arriving at
8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired to drive home
safely. It does realistically need two nights in a hotel. Premier Inn averages about -u80.
then yes, a hotel can be claimed for, together with the reasonable
cost of an evening meal and breakfast.-a HMRC will even allow you a
pint of beer or equivalent with your evening meal!-a If you were
travelling the other end of the country for a village fete I wouldn't
allow, but if it was for a trade event to look at new stock, I would.
Some buying trips require two visits: one to view the auction items, bid online at home, then collect a few days later.
Overseas expenditure for air fare, accommodation and subsistence is
allowable, providing the journey was absolutely necessary.
If the trip doesn't take place, nothing is achieved. So it *is*
absolutely necessary.
For a side hustle I would very much doubt it was.-a Lots of meals?
Breakfast lunch and dinner during the duration, again reasonable cost,
together with travel costs to and from the venue.
If you're just having a jolly at the taxpayers expense, and HMRC
picked up on it, you would be in deep do dah!!
In a former enterprise 25yrs ago, they demanded all my paperwork in
order to audit it. Found nothing wrong, but it was quite difficult
running the business while they had in effect confiscated most of my
records for a few months.
*-a This was increased in April 2026
**-a It's a choice between mileage and actual costs. With actual costs
(Fuel, maintenance, repairs etc) you would only claim the percentage
used in the business.
I'd always use mileage. Otherwise it would be a nightmare to calculate
the percentage. I have a Range Rover that I use mainly for business (especially given the price of diesel) and last year it had a -u3k engine rebuild. But I can't be bothered to log every trip as "Shopping at Tesco
2 miles up the road" versus "Picking up some stock from 200 miles away".
In any event I tend to do the shopping in my wife's car, which has done
less than 10k in the twelve years since she bought it new (Tesco really
is only 2 miles away, and she's always worked from home since buying it; during COVID it did almost zero miles a year).
Once you've decided on which, you have to stick to that method unless
you change your vehicle. If actual costs, you can also claim capital
allowance at 6% of the worth of the car
As far as I can tell my car's value consistently reduces about 20% from
last year's value. -u35k when new, I bought it for about -u15k three years ago. Maybe worth -u8k now, although hopefully the engine rebuild would
make it more attractive to a knowledgeable buyer.
(100% if commercial vehicle.-a For a side hustle, mileage would
invariably work out better.
I agree.
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's notNo, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover.
clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid for the item(s).
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover.
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid for the
item(s).
Sorry, what are you talking about?
On 01/10/2026 00:01, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover.
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid for the
item(s).
Sorry, what are you talking about?
Responding to the OP's Post.
What are YOU ****ing about?
International travel
Expenses incurred on business travel abroad will be deductible provided
the business purpose is the sole purpose of the journey (Edwards v
Warmsley, Henshall & Co (1967) 44 TC 431). This is contrasted with
cases where the trip has a social purpose in addition (Bowden v Russell
& Russell (1965) 42 TC 301).
I can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away, arriving
at 8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired to drive home >>safely. It does realistically need two nights in a hotel. Premier Inn >>averages about u80.
Do you expect to sell enough at an event to cover all those costs?
then yes, a hotel can be claimed for, together with the reasonable
cost of an evening meal and breakfast.a HMRC will even allow you a
pint of beer or equivalent with your evening meal!a If you were >>>travelling the other end of the country for a village fete I wouldn't >>>allow, but if it was for a trade event to look at new stock, I would.
Some buying trips require two visits: one to view the auction items,
bid online at home, then collect a few days later.
Overseas expenditure for air fare, accommodation and subsistence is >>>allowable, providing the journey was absolutely necessary.
If the trip doesn't take place, nothing is achieved. So it *is* >>absolutely necessary.
The concern is that you might be taking a holiday abroad, thinly
disguised as a business trip.
Bear in mind that you don't have to convince anyone on this NG, just
the good folk at HMRC.
I think they'd be looking for you to show in some detail what you did >achieve and that this could not have been done in some cheaper way.
On 30/09/2026 14:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <119ium0$77ss$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:18:07 on Wed, 30 Sep >>2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
You haven't looked very far, most accountants know the rules on >>>expenses, including me.Sadly, I have to disagree, based on decades of experience. The best
most accountants can manage is "do 90% of the work yourself, then
I'll type the numbers into the form the HMRC requires".
I've been doing it for 15-16 years, primarily dealing with sole traders
and small Ltd Companies. For most clients, they supply the paperwork
and I work out the turnover and allowable costs.
It's changing now with MTD, but I would also check their software for >mistakes if they were using their own software., it's amazing how often >things get put in the wrong category or claiming for something that
isn't allowable, even if they thought it was.
You can have an income of up to u1000 a year
I think it's *turnover* rather than *income*. BICBW
Yes, I should have made that clearer, I look at it as Income -
expenses = profit.
There isn't a set allowance for subsistence, if the costs are >>>reasonable HMRC will allow. If the event you were travelling to was >>>beyond a days reasonable travel,
I can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away, arriving
at 8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired to drive home >>safely. It does realistically need two nights in a hotel. Premier Inn >>averages about u80.
It's only 14 hours, what's up with you? :)
I would probably allow in those circumstances, but if you were setting
off at 8 am and setting off back at 5 pm probably not.
then yes, a hotel can be claimed for, together with the reasonable
cost of an evening meal and breakfast.a HMRC will even allow you a
pint of beer or equivalent with your evening meal!a If you were >>>travelling the other end of the country for a village fete I wouldn't >>>allow, but if it was for a trade event to look at new stock, I would.
Some buying trips require two visits: one to view the auction items,
bid online at home, then collect a few days later.
Then both claimable. It does sound though that this is more than a side >hustle.
Overseas expenditure for air fare, accommodation and subsistence is >>>allowable, providing the journey was absolutely necessary.
If the trip doesn't take place, nothing is achieved. So it *is* >>absolutely necessary.You'd be surprised at some who will claim a business trip and have a
holiday at the same time. For overseas this nullifies the whole claim.
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but it's not >>> clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something bought
No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover.
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid for the
item(s).
Sorry, what are you talking about?
In message <119j0p9$83j7$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:54:00 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
International travel
Expenses incurred on business travel abroad will be deductible
provided the business purpose is the sole purpose of the journey
(Edwards v Warmsley, Henshall & Co (1967) 44 TC 431). This is
contrasted with cases where the trip has a social purpose in addition
(Bowden v Russell & Russell (1965) 42 TC 301).
A test which could be applied is "would the trip have made without there being a business purpose".
While a domestic trip, I'm not going to Blackpool this coming weekend
(where there's an event on the Saturday) because I have a growing
backlog of DIY projects to finish before the winter sets in, and after
all it's just-a-side-hustle not a fulltime business.
If I did go, would having a curry in the evening with some of the other stallholders cause the trip not to be "wholly business", because of the social aspect? What about having a drink in the bar at lunchtime...
I return from many of my overseas trips on a Monday, because the flights
are considerably cheaper** than Sunday ones, and getting up at 5am the
day after having worked all day Saturday at an event is bad for work/
life balance. What's the tax position on this kind of thing (one would probably sit on the beach on Sunday).
** Due to the demand from people with fulltime jobs they need to get
-a-a back to on Monday.
I return from many of my overseas trips on a Monday, because the
flights are considerably cheaper** than Sunday ones, and getting up
at 5am the day after having worked all day Saturday at an event is
bad for work/ life balance. What's the tax position on this kind of
thing (one would probably sit on the beach on Sunday).
** Due to the demand from people with fulltime jobs they need to get
aa back to on Monday.
Back in the day ( 80's 90's ) I used to do shows/exhibitions (
Commodore World Fare/IAAPA etc). A couple of times I/we added on a
Caribbean holiday tacked on the back. Accountant said fine, so long as
you pay personally for the holiday bit, all well and good.Made for some
very cheap holidays!. IAAPA Las Vegas was always good for a couple of
extra days layover ( on the company)
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that >implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean >adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently u90k per annum) not least because >pursuing folks like me with maybe u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >>nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that >>implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean >>adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently u90k per annum) not least because >>pursuing folks like me with maybe u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
For turnover of less than u15,000 (don't think it's changed) on self >assessment the only side hustle information needed is turnover and
expenses.
(When I first had side hustle income in the 1980s I had to submit my
accounts with the tax return. Never had any problems.)
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation,
but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
On 01/10/2026 01:31, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 01/10/2026 00:01, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but
it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses.
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something
bought
No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka Turnover. >>>>>
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid for the >>>>> item(s).
Sorry, what are you talking about?
Responding to the OP's Post.
No, that's what you're *doing*. I asked what you were talking about.
What are YOU ****ing about?
Your post makes no sense. What does "the side-hustle is solely based
on the sale price(s)" even mean? Are you claiming that the HMRC has a
category of businesses classed as "side-hustles" for which they don't
allow deductions of expenses?
Exactly.
From where did you get this ... idea?
From my experience as an Accountant
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that
implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean
adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because
pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
With the above in mind, it seems appropriate to recall Jean-Claude JunckerrCOs promise, shown on BBC TV (of course), that rCYIf you leave,
we will hurt yourCY.
That it has apparently come to pass, is a reflection of the operational
style of the bunch of shysters that recent suggestions say we should
rejoin.
If you are unhappy with the way things worked out, you know who to blame.
BTW, do the recent suggestions of a possible future referendum on
rejoining include the RemainerrCOs post-result demand that there should
be a supermajority one way or the other?
In message <pg1tbll2d14lbv0mkf6rkgc74gu67ajdvc@4ax.com>, at 17:14:57 on
Thu, 1 Oct 2026, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add
to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
And no, I'm not going to register for VAT, with all the red tape that
implies, just to get that 20% refunded. Not least because it would mean
adding 20% to all my sale prices, even for items I've sourced in the UK. >>>
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because >>> pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
For turnover of less than -u15,000 (don't think it's changed) on self
assessment the only side hustle information needed is turnover and
expenses.
Being a retired person (albeit now with a start-up side hustle) I
haven't been required to do self-assessment for several years.
And surely they want to know the *profit*/loss as well as the turnover
and expenses.
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
--(When I first had side hustle income in the 1980s I had to submit my
accounts with the tax return. Never had any problems.)
I've never had an official side-hustle before (hence my enquiries here).
I've been mainly employed by numerous third parties, employed by an
umbrella company, or self-employed only doing core work. And of course retired for several years before I decided to go side-hustling which was originally a hobby, but the government now wants to snoop on.
I have done many trade shows at Las Vegas, and would always plan to >>arrive at least two days early, in order to get over the jet-lag. But
the time was spent with colleagues doing set-up, or wandering around >>spying on competitors' stands, not playing in the casinos.
I'd usually catch a flight home the final day of the show, when
footfall was typically very light, especially in the afternoon
(flights would leave late afternoon).
Did you ever do IAPPA ?
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about u2k, expenses
of about u5k, so a loss of u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your >pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a couple of >expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that I'd like >to fund that way!
Did you ever do IAPPA ?
Hmm, an unfamiliar acronym. But looking it up, No.
In message <8506849591.6ea7e338@uninhabited.net>, at 20:04:28 on Thu, 1
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your
pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that I'd like
to fund that way!
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on
side-hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
On 2 Oct 2026 at 06:20:47 BST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <8506849591.6ea7e338@uninhabited.net>, at 20:04:28 on Thu, 1
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about u2k, expenses >>>> of about u5k, so a loss of u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your
pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a >>>couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses
that I'd like
to fund that way!
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on
side-hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
My knowledge is out of date by decades and from HMRC guidance rather than >legislation but when I looked this up you absolutely couldn't offset business >losses against other income for tax purposes. There were some limited ways of >offsetting business losses against profits from the same business in future >years but I don't know the details.
On 1 Oct 2026 at 19:04:21 BST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that I'd like
to fund that way!
On 2026-10-01, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add >>> to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because >>> pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making
a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
With the above in mind, it seems appropriate to recall Jean-Claude
JunckerrCOs promise, shown on BBC TV (of course), that rCYIf you leave,
we will hurt yourCY.
It is difficult to "recall" things that never happened.
That it has apparently come to pass, is a reflection of the operational
style of the bunch of shysters that recent suggestions say we should
rejoin.
If you are unhappy with the way things worked out, you know who to blame.
The Tories? Farage? Putin?
BTW, do the recent suggestions of a possible future referendum on
rejoining include the RemainerrCOs post-result demand that there should
be a supermajority one way or the other?
I don't think the suggestions are anywhere that detailed presently.
But I have observed previously that a win for Rejoin as narrow as the
win for Leave was would be unlikely to be sufficient to persuade the
EU to allow us to rejoin.
On 01/10/2026 21:04, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 1 Oct 2026 at 19:04:21 BST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your
pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a
couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that
I'd like
to fund that way!
-aSeems to be allowed, especially in early years. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/losses-hs227-self-assessment- helpsheet/hs227-losses-2026
-aIf, hypothetically, someone were involved in reviving a community Inn some distance from home, and received some gift or payments in kind,
they should be able to register as a sole trader
for self assessment,
declare the value of the gift as income,
claim travel expenses, offset
the expenses against the 40% income tax on their pension from successful previous employments.
In message <8506849591.6ea7e338@uninhabited.net>, at 20:04:28 on Thu, 1
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your
pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a
couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that
I'd like
to fund that way!
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on side- hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2026-10-01, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
[rCa]
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount >>>> of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
Not just the extra form-filling, but anything I buy from the EU (to add >>>> to my stock) takes about a fortnight extra to arrive, *and* I have to
pay 20% VAT on it.
[rCa]
It seems to me that the side-hustle threshold should be more like the
VAT registration threshold (currently -u90k per annum) not least because >>>> pursuing folks like me with maybe -u5-10k a year turnover is going to
cost far more than any income tax generated - assuming I'm even making >>>> a profit, rather than performing a public service re-cycling/re-using
and preserving for posterity, the vintage tech.
Whoever thought up this scheme, really didn't think it through!
With the above in mind, it seems appropriate to recall Jean-Claude
JunckerrCOs promise, shown on BBC TV (of course), that rCYIf you leave,
we will hurt yourCY.
It is difficult to "recall" things that never happened.
ItrCOs hardly my fault if Remainers and the like either never followed the news in the lead-up to the referendum vote, or in good 1984 style
immediately forgot the parts they didnrCOt like, but it is a fact that I saw Jean-Claude Juncker make a promise, shown on BBC TV (of course), that rCYIf you leave, we will hurt yourCY.
That it has apparently come to pass, is a reflection of the operational
style of the bunch of shysters that recent suggestions say we should
rejoin.
If you are unhappy with the way things worked out, you know who to blame.
The Tories? Farage? Putin?
Everyone but the culprit, it would seem.
Why should the EU trust the UK to keep its word about anything at all?BTW, do the recent suggestions of a possible future referendum on
rejoining include the RemainerrCOs post-result demand that there should
be a supermajority one way or the other?
I don't think the suggestions are anywhere that detailed presently.
ThatrCOs true, IrCOm merely getting in early with the reminder thatrCOs whatrCOs
good enough post-facto for the Remainers is good enough for the third rCOonce in a generationrCO referendum.
But I have observed previously that a win for Rejoin as narrow as the
win for Leave was would be unlikely to be sufficient to persuade the
EU to allow us to rejoin.
An interesting observation. One wonders what the criterion for a majority vote might be, that would satisfy most people in the lead-up to any vote.
On 02/10/2026 10:36, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 01/10/2026 21:04, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 1 Oct 2026 at 19:04:21 BST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses >>>> of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your
pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a
couple of
expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as businesses that
I'd like
to fund that way!
-a-aSeems to be allowed, especially in early years.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/losses-hs227-self-assessment-
helpsheet/hs227-losses-2026
-a-aIf, hypothetically, someone were involved in reviving a community Inn >> some distance from home, and received some gift or payments in kind, they >> should be able to register as a sole trader
Not if there's no business or trade involved.-a The clue's in the name.
In message <119j7nn$as6k$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:52:38 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
-aI can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away, arriving
at-a 8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired to drive
home safely. It does realistically need two nights in a hotel.
Premier Inn averages about -u80.
Do you expect to sell enough at an event to cover all those costs?
I didn't realise that the rules said you had to be profitable every
single day you work. If that's the case, then almost every pub would
shut all day Monday and Tuesday, and not do lunches Wednesday and Thursday.
In message <119j8pg$bbgo$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:10:39 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
On 30/09/2026 14:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <119ium0$77ss$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:18:07 on Wed, 30 Sep
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
You haven't looked very far, most accountants know the rules on-aSadly, I have to disagree, based on decades of experience. The best
expenses, including me.
most-a accountants can manage is "do 90% of the work yourself, then
I'll type-a the numbers into the form the HMRC requires".
I've been doing it for 15-16 years, primarily dealing with sole
traders and small Ltd Companies.-a For most clients, they supply the
paperwork and I work out the turnover and allowable costs.
JOOI, how much would you charge for a side-hustle like mine? And if
that's significantly more than me DIY-ing it, is that an allowable
expense in its own right.
You can have an income of up to -u1000 a year
-aI think it's *turnover* rather than *income*. BICBW
Yes, I should have made that clearer, I look at it as-a Income -
expenses = profit.
Sorry, that's not clearer. Are you saying their rule is more than -u1000 profit, and how do you know before the end of the year how much that's
going to be.
Then both claimable. It does sound though that this is more than a
side hustle.
My day-job is being a pensioner, and I probably go to eight events a
year, with an average of one buying trip a month. Does that qualify me
(and my wife) as a "hard working family", apparently much approved of by
the Labour government; or not?
On 01/10/2026 01:31, Jon Ribbens wrote:
Your post makes no sense. What does "the side-hustle is solely based
on the sale price(s)" even mean? Are you claiming that the HMRC has a
category of businesses classed as "side-hustles" for which they don't
allow deductions of expenses?
Exactly.
-aFrom where did you get this ... idea?
From my experience as an Accountant
What do you think "side-hustle" means?
You are remarkably ill-informed.
I suggest that you do some research. The first port of call might be:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/say-i-do-to-getting-your-side-hustle- tax-right.
Note that HMRC uses the same term that the OP and I use.: side-hustle.
Further back in this thread, somebody mentioned the word 'income', and I think that Peter Able was just clarifying that the correct term isPeter didn't answer the question Roland asked, and I have mistakenly
turnover. That was so obvious to some people that they couldn't see any difference, and then, this being Usenet, an argument ensued.
On 01/10/2026 19:42, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-10-01, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 01/10/2026 01:31, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 01/10/2026 00:01, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2026-09-30, Peter Able <stuck@home.com> wrote:
On 30/09/2026 09:04, Roland Perry wrote:
We are a year or two into HMRC wanting to tax side-hustles, but >>>>>>>> it's not clear to me what the rules are on allowable expenses. >>>>>>>>
Yes, I can obviously claim for the postage on shipping something >>>>>>>> bought
No, the side-hustle is solely based on the sale price(s), aka
Turnover.
No expenses, no shipping charges, no mileage, no what you paid
for the item(s).
Sorry, what are you talking about?
Responding to the OP's Post.
No, that's what you're *doing*. I asked what you were talking about.
What are YOU ****ing about?
Your post makes no sense. What does "the side-hustle is solely based
on the sale price(s)" even mean? Are you claiming that the HMRC has a
category of businesses classed as "side-hustles" for which they don't
allow deductions of expenses?
Exactly.
From where did you get this ... idea?
From my experience as an Accountant
So you have no reference you can point to which backs up your
remarkable claim?
I shall thank you anyway for ably demonstrating my point that for any
particular question, different accountants will have wildly differing
opinions.
Further back in this thread, somebody mentioned the word 'income', and I think that Peter Able was just clarifying that the correct term is
turnover. That was so obvious to some people that they couldn't see any difference, and then, this being Usenet, an argument ensued.
On 2 Oct 2026 at 06:20:47 BST, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <8506849591.6ea7e338@uninhabited.net>, at 20:04:28 on Thu, 1
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses >>>> of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on
your pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I
have a couple of expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed
as businesses that I'd like to fund that way!
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on
side-hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
My knowledge is out of date by decades and from HMRC guidance rather
than legislation but when I looked this up you absolutely couldn't
offset business losses against other income for tax purposes. There
were some limited ways of offsetting business losses against profits
from the same business in future years but I don't know the details.
In message <8506849591.6ea7e338@uninhabited.net>, at 20:04:28 on Thu, 1
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
Very roughly, in my first year I'd expect sales of about -u2k, expenses
of about -u5k, so a loss of -u3K; which I would expect to set against
any tax payable-at-source on my pensions: State plus my possibly
three occupational (two of which are so small I've not even claimed
yet), and the -u150/month survivor's pension from my late wife's
occupational pension.
The idea that you could offset your business losses against tax on your >>pension seems, shall we say, optimistic. If t'were possible I have a
couple of expensive hobbies that could conceivably be framed as
businesses that I'd like to fund that way!
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on side-hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
On 01/10/2026 05:25, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <119j7nn$as6k$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:52:38 on Wed, 30 Sep >>2026, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
aI can't reasonably travel to an event typically 2hrs away,
arriving ata 8am for setup and departing at 6pm. I'd be too tired
to drive home safely. It does realistically need two nights in a >>>>hotel. Premier Inn averages about u80.
Do you expect to sell enough at an event to cover all those costs?
I didn't realise that the rules said you had to be profitable every >>single day you work. If that's the case, then almost every pub would
shut all day Monday and Tuesday, and not do lunches Wednesday and >>Thursday.
HMRC would expect you to make profit over time. Obviously a new venture >would take time to realise a profit, but if you were consistently
putting in loss making tax returns over several years, then HMRC might >consider you're not really in business, and the trade is really a hobby.
On 02/10/2026 10:56, Spike wrote:
Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
On 2026-10-01, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
That it has apparently come to pass, is a reflection of the operational >>>> style of the bunch of shysters that recent suggestions say we should
rejoin.
If you are unhappy with the way things worked out, you know who to
blame.
The Tories? Farage? Putin?
Everyone but the culprit, it would seem.
Two culprits - David Cameron, for sabotaging the UK in a futile attempt
to silence the Eurosceptics.
And Boris Johnson for choosing to support
Leave because he reckoned that the outcome would be Remain but that his
path to power would be much easier for being a rebel.
An interesting observation. One wonders what the criterion for a majority
vote might be, that would satisfy most people in the lead-up to any vote.
Why should the EU trust the UK to keep its word about anything at all?
Looks as if we're going to resile from the Chagos deal just to please
Donald Trump.
It would need to be a genuine trade with the intention of making a
profit, even if that profit doesn't materialise in the first x amount
of years.
The guvverment can't have it both ways. If they want to tax me on
side-hustle profits, they MUST allow me to make side-hustle losses.
My knowledge is out of date by decades and from HMRC guidance rather than
legislation but when I looked this up you absolutely couldn't offset business
losses against other income for tax purposes. There were some limited ways of
offsetting business losses against profits from the same business in future >> years but I don't know the details.
Yes, you can carry a loss forward for up to 4 years. There's also side
loss relief if it's a genuine trade, which it does appear to be in
Roland's case, which means he could offset the tax paid on pension
income in the same or previous year.
On 02/10/2026 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
It's not a business loss, it's a self-employment side-hustle loss. If >>they can tax your extra if you make a profit, the surely they can tax
you less if you make a loss.
As I've mentioned to someone above, you can either offset your losses >against future tax (can be carried forward for up to 4 years) , or
thererCOs something called Sideways Loss Relief, which you can offset >against tax paid on your pensions.
I have, co-incidentally, until 5th October to register for this.
While a domestic trip, I'm not going to Blackpool this coming weekend >>(where there's an event on the Saturday) because I have a growing
backlog of DIY projects to finish before the winter sets in, and after
all it's just-a-side-hustle not a fulltime business.
If I did go, would having a curry in the evening with some of the
other stallholders cause the trip not to be "wholly business",
because of the social aspect? What about having a drink in the bar at >>lunchtime...
Not at all, as long as the expenses only related to the business
element that's fine, you can claim the evening meal but if you were
also paying for a business contact's meal it becomes entertainment, and >disallowable.
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >nightmare.
In message <d9jvbl9iph94juoj7p494qtm1981ustgtl@4ax.com>, at 16:34:27 on
Fri, 2 Oct 2026, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >>>nightmare.
It's a consequence of HMRC trying to clamp down on eBay traders with >>considerable turnovers,
I don't think -u1k a year (that's -u2.74/day) is "considerable".
and profits,
No, they are only triggered by turnover.
On 2026-10-02, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <d9jvbl9iph94juoj7p494qtm1981ustgtl@4ax.com>, at 16:34:27 on
Fri, 2 Oct 2026, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount >>>> of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a
nightmare.
It's a consequence of HMRC trying to clamp down on eBay traders with
considerable turnovers,
I don't think -u1k a year (that's -u2.74/day) is "considerable".
and profits,
No, they are only triggered by turnover.
I think that is probably true, inasmuch as the whole point of the
updated rules is that HMRC can just tell big companies like eBay
to give them a report like:
SELECT users.national_insurance_no,SUM(sales.price) AS total_sales
FROM users
INNER JOIN sales ON sales.seller_id=users.id
GROUP BY users.national_insurance_no
HAVING total_sales >= 1000.00
and then telling all those people to file self-assessment forms.
And eBay of course don't know how much you bought things for, or
what your overheads are, all they can see is your (eBay) turnover.
I presume, that although this does not apply to Roland,
you could claim that you are merely selling excess possessions/hoards
and household junk/toys you're bored with and have bought no stock in
to sell. And therefore are not involved in business?
In message <6084054292.08ae5ef0@uninhabited.net>, at 17:07:20 on Fri, 2
Oct 2026, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
I presume, that although this does not apply to Roland,
It does, because I also sell things like that too.
you could claim that you are merely selling excess possessions/hoards
and household junk/toys you're bored with and have bought no stock in
to sell. And therefore are not involved in business?
Business as a side hustle, is selling things you bought to re-sell.
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount
of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like
the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >>nightmare.
It's a consequence of HMRC trying to clamp down on eBay traders with >considerable turnovers, and profits, who, up to now, think they are >untraceable and don't declare their eBay income/profit. From last year
eBay have required any trader with a specified turnover/number of
sales to submit their National Insurance No so that HMRC can be
informed. I qualified last year but I don't expect to this year.
On Fri, 02 Oct 2026 16:34:27 +0100, Peter Johnson
<peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
On Thu, 1 Oct 2026 09:40:56 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
Meanwhile...
I thought we were promised that leaving the EU would reduce the amount >>>of red tape. But not only are we now saddled with extra red tape like >>>the side-hustle taxation, but importing and exporting to the EU is a >>>nightmare.
It's a consequence of HMRC trying to clamp down on eBay traders with >>considerable turnovers, and profits, who, up to now, think they are >>untraceable and don't declare their eBay income/profit. From last year
eBay have required any trader with a specified turnover/number of
sales to submit their National Insurance No so that HMRC can be
informed. I qualified last year but I don't expect to this year.
How much do you have to succesfully flog for that to becom a requirement?
eg I buy some goods from Ebay for -u500 over the year, and I sell themI'm very much hoping that your gross profit is -u1000, but of course you
for -u1500. Is my profit -u500 or -u1500 and how much tax do I pay?
In message <119o7kt$238hk$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:21:48 on Fri, 2 Oct
2026, John <megane.06@gmail.com> remarked:
HMRC would expect you to make profit over time. Obviously a new
venture would take time to realise a profit, but if you were
consistently putting in loss making tax returns over several years,
then HMRC might consider you're not really in business, and the trade
is really a hobby.
I can see why they say that, but surely most side-hustles *are* a hobby? (And if you had to pay yourself minimum wage, would almost always be
running at a loss).
eg If I go to the monthly auction to buy things, I'm there perhaps five hours, plus an hour each way travelling, so that's -u90, and if I buy something for -u50, tidy it up and list it on eBay, that process will
take around another hour. What if it then sells for -u40 - that's a loss
of at least -u100?
It's HMRC who have decided to poke their nose in, if your turnover is
more than -u1k a year. They made that bed, so have to lay in it.
Which is why I've suggested it's a ludicrously low threshold, and should
be at least -u50k, maybe -u90k.
On Fri, 02 Oct 2026 13:21:48 +0100, John wrote:
On 01/10/2026 05:25, Roland Perry wrote:
[quoted text muted]
HMRC would expect you to make profit over time.
That doesn't make it law. I expect lots of things too.
Many businesses manage to just "tick over" by judicious investing and
writing off.
My Dads business once rather carelessly made a small profit. However our accountant was quite relaxed and said it would be offset by a small loss
the next year.
On 01/10/2026 19:53, Jon Ribbens wrote:
If you are unhappy with the way things worked out, you know who to blame. >>The Tories? Farage? Putin?
The gullible public, myself included (although I was on holiday at the
time and forgot to do a postal vote).
I think in hindsight it was a mistake (Roland makes an excellent point
on importing goods) and I can't see how Britain has benefited from it.
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