From Newsgroup: talk.origins

On 4/17/2026 1:27 PM, RonO wrote:

When the ID perps put out their Top Six god-of-the-gaps arguments in the order in which they must have occurred in this universe (back in Nov.
2017) most of the IDiotic creationist still posting on TO quit the ID
scam or stopped posting.-a They all realized that they had never wanted
any valid ID science to be produced because it would just be more
science for them to deny.-a MarkE and Glenn started running from them and would not address them in an honest and straight forward manner.-a MarkE refuses to address them to this day.

1.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-the-universe/

2.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-fine-tuning-of-the- universe/

3.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-information- in-dna/

4.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-irreducibly- complex-molecular-machines/

5.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-animals/

6.
https://evolutionnews.org/2017/11/ids-top-six-the-origin-of-humans/

The Reason to Believe old earth creationists had claimed that they
supported the ID scam science in order to help them create their
Biblical creation model, but in 2018 they reformated their site and you would be hard pressed to determine that they ever supported ID.-a Those articles no longer come up on searches of the site.-a The Top six is not consistent with their creation model.-a A model that they claim is based
on their literal interpretation of the Bible.

https://reasons.org/explore/publications/articles/summary-of-reasons-to- believes-testable-creation-model-1

They have tried to make their creation model consistent with the Top
Six, but they had to rewrite the Bible and make claims that are not
Biblical in order to try to do it.-a They ultimately failed.-a They tried
to place the origin of life (#3 of the Top Six) in alignment with the
Big Bang creation and the ID perps fine tuning argument for the creation
of the earth 8 billion years after the Big Bang.-a The actual origin of
life on this planet is not mentioned in the Bible, and the Bible
incorrectly claims that the creation of life on earth started with the creation of land plants on the 3rd day (or period of time for some OEC
that can't accept that the Bible claims night and day for each literal day).-a Trying to place the origin of life where it should be in the creation scenario makes it obvious that the Biblical description of the first few days is just wrong.-a Not just for their claims that land
plants were not the first lifeforms created, but their denial of the creation of the firmament and the land masses (continents). For some
stupid reason they still want the Cambrian Explosion (#5 of the Top Six)
to occur after land plants were created when the Cambrian explosion
evidence is hundreds of millions of years older than the evidence for
the evolution of the land plants that are described in the Bible.-a The ancestors of the crop plants (angiosperm plants) described as being
created during the 3rd period of time, did not evolve until Dinos were walking around on dry land.-a The Cambrian explosion gap denial argument
is very specific.-a The claim is that a 25 million year period that
occurred over half a billion years ago is not enough time for all the
sea creatures to have evolved.-a Angiosperm plants (fruit and seed
plants) evolved less than 200 million years ago, with the grasses
(ancestors of grain plants) would not evolve until around 80 million
years ago.-a Their model continues to be inconsistent with reality.

I have numbered their summary in the order in which they claim things happened.-a You should compare their literal creation model with what the Bible claims.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201&version=NRSVUE;KJV

1. Planet Earth is singled out for a sequence of divine interventions.
At its beginning, Earth is empty of life and unfit for life, and light cannot penetrate its thick atmosphere.

They skip the Big Bang (#1 of the Top Six) and the creation of light in
the darkness and the fact that the Bible claims that night and day were created on the first day or period of time.

Their claim that light cannot penetrate the initial atmosphere is not Biblical.-a They need to make this claim because the Biblical creation of the sun and moon (on the 4th day) is not consistent with the Big Bang scenario (#1 of the Top Six) and subsequent fine tuning of earth for
life (#2 of the Top Six). The sun and moon were created about the same
time that the earth was created, but the Bible claims that the sun and
moon were made on the 4th day (or period of time for OEC) and placed in
the firmament.-a The Reason to believe creationists want the atmosphere
to be a shroud until the sun and moon would be visible from the surface
of the earth during the 4th period of time. The early atmosphere would
have cleared by around 3.6 billion years ago, long before the 4th period
of time, so their non literal excuse isn't viable, and there is no
reason why the sun and moon would not be visible to their designer, who would be the only being around for billions of years that would have
been able to see the sun and moon.

As noted the Bible makes no mention of life being created during the
first period of time.-a They make that claim because it would have been
what actually happened no matter what the Bible claims.-a The origin of
life (#3 of the Top Six) is not supported by any literal interpretation
of the Bible.-a It has to be added as something that was not mentioned.
This makes the Biblical claim that land plants were the first lifeforms created on the 3rd day a false claim.-a The reason to believe still want land plants to be created during the third period of time, but they know that life had already existed for billions of years before that happened.

2. As interplanetary debris cleared and early life began to transform EarthrCOs atmosphere, light from the heavenly bodies could penetrate to
the surface.

They are trying to make their dark shroud fictional version of the
initial dark hazy atmosphere of earth compatible with Genesis 1-5.-a As whacked as this is, they want the shroud to thin enough so that light
can get through, but still keep the sun and moon invisible.-a Only their designer was around to see the sun and moon at this time, but that
doesn't matter to them.-a They do not want the sun and moon to be created during the 4th period of time as the Bible claims.-a They want to make believe that the Bible is consistent with what happened after the Big
Bang, and the sun and moon would have been created around the same time
that the earth was created.-a One of the final phases for the creation of the earth is when a mars sized planet may have collided with the earth adding to the earth's mass and ejected enough material into orbit to
create the moon. This likely gave earth it's tilt and is the reason that
we have seasons during our orbit around the sun.

Nothing in the Bible claims that life was present during the first day
or period of time.-a From what we have been able to determine life arose
not long after there was liquid water on the planet, but Genesis does
not have life created until the 3rd day.-a The Reason to Believe
creationist want to make believe that the Bible just did not mention the creation of life and the fact that life was evolving for billions of
years before land plants were created.-a Kalk and Bill were OEC, and they quit the ID scam so they may not have agreed with the Reason to Believe creationists.-a MarkE does not seem to want to believe when life actually arose on this planet either, and claims that even though the origin of
life gap is not consistent with the Biblical order of creation that he
does not have to face that reality until the gap is filled.-a The origin
of life gap (#3 of the Top Six) is not consistent with what is written
in the Bible.-a Things have to be added to the "literal" interpretation
of Bible in order to make believe that it is consistent.

3. As water vapor formed in the troposphere, a stable water cycle formed.

They want to deny the Biblical firmament and claim that the water cycle
was being described in the Genesis account of the second day, but it is obvious that, that is not the case.-a They understand that the water
cycle was established on earth when liquid water formed, and that life likely existed on a planet with a water cycle, but they want to deny the Biblical claims about the firmament so they are lying to themselves
about some "stable" water cycle forming during the second period of
time.-a It would seem to be a stretch to have the water cycle develop
only after their non Biblical origin of life on earth, and the Bible actually calls what separated the water a firmament or vault or dome.

The ancient Hebrew cosmology had a flat earth with a solid dome above
it.-a There was water found on the earth and water on the other side of
the firmament (dome) that could be released as rain.

4. Continental landmasses arose and ocean basins took shape.

They understand that there was dry land as soon as there was liquid
water on the earth to differentiate wet from dry, and that the origin of life likely occurred during a period of time when land masses existed,
but they want to make believe that continental land masses only
developed during the 3rd period of time.-a Trying to fit the actual
origin of life into their literal interpretation makes their
interpretation look like nonsense.-a They want land masses to only be created during the same period that land plants were created.-a Things
just never happened the way that they want to believe it happened.-a It sounds like they want the earth to have been a water world completely covered by water for billions of years, but that is not the case.-a They don't seem to want to deal with the fact that there were likely several
ice ball earth episodes long before land plants were created.

The current continental landmasses did not exist back when the initial continents were forming.-a We might not have much of any of the original crust of the earth to study.-a The oldest rocks seem to be around 4
billion years old.-a Some of them might be part of some ancient
continental land masses, but not the initial continents.-a Most of what existed before 4 billion years has been buried deep or eroded away.
There are claims that there are zircon bits from eroded ancient rocks
that might be 4.3 billion years old.-a My guess is that reality doesn't conform to the Biblical order of creation and that the initial
continents formed a little before life was getting started on this planet.

5. Plants began to grow on the continental landmasses.

Pangaea would form before the ancestors of angiosperm plants evolved on land, but the continental landmasses we know today would not start to
exist until around the time that the Dinos bit the dust.-a A time when
the super continent was breaking up due to continental drift.

These are not the same continental land masses of their #4.-a Land plants were not created on the same day that the initial continents formed.
Land plants evolved on this planet long after the initial continents had been buried in sediment or eroded away.-a Pangaea would not come together until around 300 million years ago.-a The initial land masses would have formed over 4 billion years ago.

Their 5. is not consistent with the Top Six.-a The Cambrian explosion (#5
of the Top Six) occurred long before the first angiosperm plants evolved around 180 million years ago.-a 5. is not consistent with reality.-a The ancestors of the angiosperms described in the Bible would not evolve
until dinos were walking around on land, and the ancestors of the
grasses (the grain plants) would not evolve until around 80 million
years ago.-a The land plants described in the Bible would have been
created long after sea creatures and land animals existed.

For some reason they want to maintain the Biblical order of the creation
of life in the face of reality even though they acknowledge that life
was created soon after the earth was created.-a Trying to deal with the actual origin of life on this planet makes their Biblical creation model look silly and unsupportable.

6. The atmosphere transitioned from translucent to occasionally
transparent so that the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars could be seen from
the vantage point of EarthrCOs surface.

This is their fictional account of a shroud needing to be lifted in
order to make the sun and moon visible instead of being created on the
4th day.-a They are literally rewriting the Bible in order to take the
Bible literally.-a The initial Hazy atmosphere of the early earth may
have cleared by around 3.6 billion years ago.-a They need the hazy atmosphere to continue to exist for over 3 billion more years.-a This is clearly an example of the Bible being wrong about when the sun and moon
were created.-a YEC claim that the Bible was not wrong and that the sun
and moon were created the day after land plants were created.-a It is
only 24 hours and no big deal for the land plants that were created the
day before.

The reason to believe creationists ignore the fact that the Bible claims that the sun and moon were made and placed in the firmament on the 4th day.

7. Swarms of small sea animals filled the oceans.

The order is inconsistent with the Top Six.-a The Cambrian explosion occurred long before land plants evolved.-a When the Reason to Believe creationists were still trying to be IDiots they acknowledged that the Cambrian explosion looked like it had occurred before land plants were created.-a They had their recreation notion where new species were constantly being recreated from existing species.-a They were claiming
that the Bible may not have mentioned the initial creation of sea
creatures in the order in which it had actually occurred, but the true
order of the creation of life on earth supported biological evolution so they didn't really like that explanation.-a They seem to have settled on lying to themselves about when the Cambrian explosion occurred.-a The IDiotic gap argument is very specific Meyer makes a big deal about the
gap being only a 25 million year period that occurred over half a
billion years ago.-a The gap denial argument depends on the accurate
dating of the event.

8. Sea mammals and birds were created and became abundant.

The Reason to Believe creationist believe that other parts of the Bible require that sea mammals be among the first sea creatures created on the
5th day.-a They do not want to believe that the Bible was talking about
big fish, or aquatic reptiles like mosasaurs.-a There are no Cambrian
whale or bird fossils.-a Birds would evolve over 300 million years after
the Cambrian explosion, and whales would not evolve from land mammals
until after the extinction of the dinos less than 65 million years ago.

The Cambrian explosion (#5 of the Top Six) does not fit into any
Biblical scenario.-a This is likely why Sewell dropped it out of the Top
Six along with the flagellum as a designed machine.-a Sewell did not want the Cambrian explosion in his Top Six list of the best IDiotic gap
denial arguments, and he didn't want bacteria evolving flagella over a billion years before land plants were created.

9. Three specialized kinds of animals came onto the scene: short-legged
land mammals, long-legged, easy-to-tame land mammals, and long-legged, difficult-to-tame land mammalsrCoall three appropriate in specific ways to help meet humanityrCOs needs.

On the 6th day all the land animals were supposed to have been created including everything that creeps upon the earth (likely invertebrates).
The issue is that land animals existed long before the angiosperm
ancestors of crop plants described in the Bible.-a The ancestors of
mammals, birds and reptiles existed 300 million years ago.-a The
ancestral angiosperms would not evolve until around 180 million years
ago and the grasses (grain plants) would not evolve until around 80
million years ago.-a The Biblical order of creation is not consistent
with reality.-a It is a big reason why a lot of OEC are anti-evolution. Nature is not Biblical.

10. Human beings appeared.

Gaps in the human fossil record (#6 of the Top Six) exist as well
defined period of time within the last 10 million years.-a No YEC can
deal honestly with this gap argument.-a Sewell changed it to a general denial of human evolution and split it into two gaps to continue to fool
the rubes: origin of intelligent humans and origin of human
consciousness.-a He claimed that both were impossible to have happened by natural mechanisms.-a He didn't care about the transitional forms that created the multiple gaps that exist in the fossil record.

As previously noted, in order to make the Top Six more palatable Sewell dropped out the Flagellum as a designed machine (#4 of the Top Six and
it occurred among bacteria over a billion years ago) and Cambrian
explosion (#5 of the Top Six).-a He split fine tuning into two gaps and human evolution into two gaps to create his Top Six and then placed them
all out of temporal order in order to keep scamming the rubes with the
ID scam god-of-the-gap denial arguments.

The Reason to Believe OEC creationists demonstrate why the Top Six
killed the ID scam on TO.-a It demonstrates why MarkE can only deal with them as independent bits of denial, and why he cannot deal honestly with
the fact that his origin of life gap is not Biblical.

Ron Okimoto

I noted that Sewell (Discovery Institute ID perp) dropped the flagellum
as a designed machine (#4 of the Top Six) and the Cambrian explosion (#5
of the Top Six) out of the ID perp's Top Six best evidence for the ID
scam. Sewell split fine tuning into two gaps and Human evolution into
two gaps and placed them all out of Temporal order in order to continue
to fool the rubes with the god-of-the-gaps junk. What is even crazier
is that Brian Miller (Discovery Institute ID perp) then dropped the Big
Bang (#1 of the Top Six) from Sewell's list. What is even crazier is
that Brian Miller is supposed to be a physicist, so he fully understood
the reason for why the Big Bang needed to be removed from among the best evidence for the ID scam.

Science is just the study of nature. Nature is not Biblical, so no
legitimate science will ever support Biblical creationism. That is why
the ID perps only use the ID scam as bait in order to sell their Wedge stupidity. They have nothing that the Biblical literalists like Sticks
and MarkE want to understand. IDiotic creationists only want to be lied
to by the ID perps. The Reason to Believe old earth Biblical
literalists are no longer IDiots because they can't deal honestly with
what is known around the IDiotic gaps. The god that fills the Top Six
gaps in the order in which they must have occurred in this universe is
not the god described in the Bible. The Top Six killed the ID scam on
TO, and MarkE is the only IDiot left standing because he has run from
the Top Six, and has never been able to deal honestly with them as they
exist in our understanding of nature. The Big Tent claims of the ID
perps welcoming all Biblical creationists to the ID creationist scam has always been a lie. Science is just the study of nature, and there is
only one nature for us to study. Nature has been known not to be
Biblical since the beginnings of Christianity.

There are still young earth, flat earth, and geocentric Biblical
creationists existing today, but you would be hard pressed to identify
any flat earth creationists among the intellectuals considered to be the Church Fathers. Eratosthenes had estimated the circumference of the
earth using physical measurements a couple of centuries before Christ
was born. Origen was an old earth creationist. Saint Augustine
believed that the order of the 6 day creation did not make sense, but
his alternative would have also been determined to be wrong today. The authors of the Bible had a young earth cosmology that they believed
existed. A flat earth was the center of the universe with a solid
firmament (dome) above the earth with water on the earth and water on
the other side of the firmament that could be released as rain. The sun
and moon were made on the fourth day of creation and placed in the
firmament.

The Top Six demonstrate that the universe is not the one described in
the Bible. Most of the IDiots posting on TO quit supporting the ID scam
when they had to face the Top Six in the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.

QUOTE:
Many different pieces of evidence pointing to design in nature could be adduced, but we decided to distill it all down to six major lines of
evidence. Sure, five or ten would have been more conventional, but when
did ID advocates start playing to expectations?

So here they are, their order simply reflecting that in which they must logically have occurred within our universe.
END QUOTE:

Ron Okimoto

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2