From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.
11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.
It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than malice and evil.
Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.
The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history point it.
It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.
Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.
Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Not a rare kind.
But to go and take over a land that belonged to others mostly surreptitiously, in an slow motion invasion that puts our border troubles with Mexico to shame, is proving not a good plan. Migrants arrived relentlessly in the promised land, and as they didn't find an empty Palestine, which was 90% Arab, they just had to displace the current occupants in a variety of ways that ran the gamut. It's a process that has not ended. In 1948, the people who endowed themselves with the power to determine what's legitimate or not in the world, told Israel they could keep territory in which they were only a 30% minority, against the opposition of an Arab majority denied self-determination and majority rule. We know what happened next. The Refugee Camps have now morphed into cities
Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?
Crimes committed for religious motives as well, but is God grateful? How? When not even Patriot missiles, upgraded to the max, can but mitigate but not stop a diluvium of explosives falling on your head, courtesy of the people you have fucked in the ass for more than 120 years and counting, then you have the answer right there.
Lovely home. Well done.
Zionists could have had Bavaria as the Jewish nation, back when, but it is no longer available.
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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.

11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.

It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than malice and evil.

Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.

The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history point it.

It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.

Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.

Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.
Not a rare kind.

But to go and take over a land that belonged to others mostly surreptitiously, in an slow motion invasion that puts our border troubles with Mexico to shame, is proving not a good plan. Migrants arrived relentlessly in the promised land, and as they didn't find an empty Palestine, which was 90% Arab, they just had to displace the current occupants in a variety of ways that ran the gamut. It's a process that has not ended. In 1948, the people who endowed themselves with the power to determine what's legitimate or not in the world, told Israel they could keep territory in which they were only a 30% minority, against the opposition of an Arab majority denied self-determination and majority rule. We know what happened next. The Refugee Camps have now morphed into cities

Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?

Crimes committed for religious motives as well, but is God grateful? How?

When not even Patriot missiles, upgraded to the max, can but mitigate but not stop a diluvium of explosives falling on your head, courtesy of the people you have fucked in the ass for more than 120 years and counting, then you have the answer right there.

Lovely home. Well done.

Zionists could have had Bavaria as the Jewish nation, back when, but it is no longer available.

I've heard Patagonia is available, and cheap. And old Nazis just
further North.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 10:06:14 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.

11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.

It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than malice and evil.

No - Hamas has been shelling southern Israel for more than a decade -
do you seriously expect no response at all? I'd be pleased if they
were to cut it out but Hamas really is dedicated to the complete
destruction of Israel and without allies they don't stand a ghost of a
chance in hell of success.

Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.

The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history point it.

Practically EVERY nation in either the Middle East or Europe has been
occupied by somebody else over the centuries - it's not like you see
Britain going to war for the return of Calais or Austria for South
Tyrol.

Plenty of people have ancestors of various family backgrounds; my
children have several more - and some of these have a long history of
warfare with each other. Most of these haven't fought since 1945. I'd
like to think it's because these countries have grown up (and counted
the cost) BUT...

It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.

Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.

Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.

Again I'm not a fan of either of these fine "gentlemen" but the whole
point of the Cincinnatus story is what he did AFTER he left office
which neither Putin or Bibi have done. THAT is why the US founding
fathers considered Washington 'the American Cincinnatus' - not what he
did 1756-1763 or 1776-1783.

Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?

Which specific crimes has Israel committed that the United States in
its first 150 years hadn't done even more so and first?

I've heard Patagonia is available, and cheap. And old Nazis just
further North.

My father having been born on Jan 30, 1933 (a somewhat important day
in German history - you can Google it if you're unsure why) makes it
easy to calculate how many 'Old Nazis' there might be left in either
Germany or Argentina.

Even if you include old Peronists as Nazis therre would be precious
few left if any.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 12:46:11 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 10:06:14 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

We live in a world where there is a set of international rules for everybody and a different set of rules for Israel.

11. Thou Shall support Zion With Blind Faith Lest Leprosy Cover Thee.

It's the only explanation for the astonished outrage portrayed mostly in my country at the sudden attack of Hamas on Israel. It's as if nothing of the sort ever happened before. As if the attackers couldn't possibly be motivated by anything else than malice and evil.

No - Hamas has been shelling southern Israel for more than a decade -
do you seriously expect no response at all? I'd be pleased if they
were to cut it out but Hamas really is dedicated to the complete
destruction of Israel and without allies they don't stand a ghost of a
chance in hell of success.

Here is where history comes in handy and to the rescue by those who still care for truth and justice.

The history of Palestine since the time the Turks let go of it, not later, or better still since the start of the twentieth century, and then people will be able to render an informed opinion. I am not saying what that opinion should be. Let history point it.

Practically EVERY nation in either the Middle East or Europe has been >occupied by somebody else over the centuries - it's not like you see
Britain going to war for the return of Calais or Austria for South
Tyrol.

Plenty of people have ancestors of various family backgrounds; my
children have several more - and some of these have a long history of
warfare with each other. Most of these haven't fought since 1945. I'd
like to think it's because these countries have grown up (and counted
the cost) BUT...

It could not have happened to a nicer guy, Mr. Bibi, himself. He is going to show us now how much he hates Arabs by slaughtering lots, for protesting when Bibi robs them of more land. Oh well.

Another like-Putin, who thought he would put a bow on his legacy with something hard-hitting before riding into the sunset. Can that Bibi too.

Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.

Again I'm not a fan of either of these fine "gentlemen" but the whole
point of the Cincinnatus story is what he did AFTER he left office
which neither Putin or Bibi have done. THAT is why the US founding
fathers considered Washington 'the American Cincinnatus' - not what he
did 1756-1763 or 1776-1783.

Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?

Which specific crimes has Israel committed that the United States in
its first 150 years hadn't done even more so and first?

I've heard Patagonia is available, and cheap. And old Nazis just
further North.

My father having been born on Jan 30, 1933 (a somewhat important day
in German history - you can Google it if you're unsure why) makes it
easy to calculate how many 'Old Nazis' there might be left in either
Germany or Argentina.

Even if you include old Peronists as Nazis therre would be precious
few left if any.

Like the Holocaust survivors they would have kids, grand kids etc some perpetuating the old causes. Hardly the ongoing zeal of the Jews, of
course.

The latest brawl in the M East will have all the old holocaust
newsreels dragged under our noses yet again. Sympathy fishing!

The emotive weepy speech by Biden a few hours ago was clearly drafted
bu the usual Wall St & Hollywood Zionists. And what about the
ongoing invasion of the West Bank that has triggered the latest push?
Was Obama the first and only President to spank that bull-necked
Zionist Net&Yahoo over the West Bank invasions?
Money talks,
Justice baulks.

Truly the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Tuesday, October 10, 2023 at 3:46:16rC>PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 10:06:14 +1100, Peter Jason <p...@jostle.com> wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <te...@tiglath.net>

No - Hamas has been shelling southern Israel for more than a decade -
do you seriously expect no response at all? I'd be pleased if they
were to cut it out but Hamas really is dedicated to the complete
destruction of Israel and without allies they don't stand a ghost of a chance in hell of success.

Oh, so it was the Palestinians who started this conflict, you are saying? People who defend Israel by choosing the last attack as if it was unprovoked and unjustified are Zionists or sympathizers. Debate is not possible with these people, because they believe that it is OK to do what Zionists do to Palestinians. Their argument's quiet part goes: It's bad to do that stuff to people, but not if Israelis do it to Palestinians.
Saying that Israel has the right to return fire and such, completely misses the point.
If you oppress people they may rebel one day, or from time to time, even if they know they will lose. In doesn't matter when grievances pile up, when war starts because honor demands it.

Practically EVERY nation in either the Middle East or Europe has been occupied by somebody else over the centuries - it's not like you see
Britain going to war for the return of Calais or Austria for South
Tyrol.

So?
Didn't we fight two world wars to realize that a new world order was needed that forbids the annexation of land through war?
It's in the UN Charter.
It says that the moral crimes the US committed in the first 150 years, are since 1945 illegal by international law.
And so is each and every instance of CONQUEST.

Plenty of people have ancestors of various family backgrounds; my
children have several more - and some of these have a long history of warfare with each other.

That ended with the UN, legally.

Two more anti-Lucius-Quinctius-Cincinnatus of history.

Again I'm not a fan of either of these fine "gentlemen" but the whole
point of the Cincinnatus story is what he did AFTER he left office
which neither Putin or Bibi have done. THAT is why the US founding
fathers considered Washington 'the American Cincinnatus' - not what he
did 1756-1763 or 1776-1783.

Putin and Bibi are power hungry dictator and wannabe-dictator, Cincinnatus wasn't. That's the reference.

Having perpetrated such number of crimes against humanity, as Israel has done against Arabs, to secure a home... Does it make it a nice home, you think?

Which specific crimes has Israel committed that the United States in
its first 150 years hadn't done even more so and first?

Irrelevant.
The acts of conquest Israel committed robbing Palestinians, etc., from 1901 to 1945, are still crimes against humanity, morally, and sinful by the Jewish god's commandments, but there was no international law that would address them at the time. Similar as with Attila and Genghis Khan.
BUT after 1949, let us remember, Israel had become a UN member, with international obligations.
At the UN, Israel loves the benefits, but shirks the responsibilities, like refraining from acts of conquest and land annexation. Israel provides also the best example of why the UN Charter prohibits such actions.
Behold! The Unhappy Jewish Home.
The made a bed of nails for themselves and now they have to lie in it.
An example to avoid.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:05:39 +1100, Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> wrote:

Like the Holocaust survivors they would have kids, grand kids etc some >perpetuating the old causes. Hardly the ongoing zeal of the Jews, of
course.

I don't think that's fair to say - how many jackboots do you see in
Munich these days (or anywhere else in Germany) You don't see that
many Peronists in Argentina these days much less Nazis. Fact is people
DO change from generation to generation.

The latest brawl in the M East will have all the old holocaust
newsreels dragged under our noses yet again. Sympathy fishing!

You really think so? 75 years later who outside the Jewish diaspora
listens to that?

The emotive weepy speech by Biden a few hours ago was clearly drafted
bu the usual Wall St & Hollywood Zionists. And what about the
ongoing invasion of the West Bank that has triggered the latest push?
Was Obama the first and only President to spank that bull-necked
Zionist Net&Yahoo over the West Bank invasions?
Money talks,
Justice baulks.

Again, on the international stage I don't think that really drives
things. China's Belt + Road imperialism is far less effective since
Africans and others figured out the terms. Who thinks about the price
of oil these days except to grumble about it?

And who in North America thinks of Putin's money as opposed to his
tanks and nukes (especially the latter)

Truly the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

As far as Israel is concerned West Bank is not under attack - Gaza is.
Gaza is firing weekly missile barrages at Israel, West Bank is not.
That's NOT a coincidence. Whatever else you can say about the Middle
East (besides oil which is always a discussion point) I am highly
skeptical that ANY of the players are concerned with good intentions
though it's fair to say given their performance that Hamas in Gaza has demonstrated far more violent 'intentions' than Israel or the
mainstream Palestinian Authority. The missile attacks that led to this
week's events were after all the largest of the 2020s.

Much as I damn Trump (and I do - I think the best thing that could
happen to US politics right now would either be jail time or a
"surfeit of lampreys" - or pretty much anything that would remove him
from the 2024 race so that moderates on both sides could get on with
restoring civility to Washington. The fact that when I said "jail
time" you almost certainly thought of only one person should say all
that needs saying!), he did make advances in Israel's relations with
their non-adjacent Arab neighbors.

"Jaw jaw is better than war war"
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval


The treatment of this round of the conflict by the press follows the predictable patterns. A new observer sees only the suffering of Israel. Anderson Cooper talks about Israeli decapitated babies. Pictures seem to avoid the Palestinian corpses.
They can say whatever they want, but this ends like so many other times. For each Israeli killed there will be 10 or more Palestinians killed in revenge. That's the way it works.
Biden and other leaders like him, act as of the Palestinians started this. They started the current attack, for sure, but that is not where to start looking at the problem unless you are a total idiot, or a Zionist.
Please note that US arms supplies ARRIVED in Israel less than a week after this round of the conflict started. And Congress is already 'mulling' additional aid to Israel, on top of the regular billions and billions every year, which means that the check is already written.
There are no logistics problems or supply shortages when it comes to Israel, that is only for Ukraine.
I hate Biden and I hate my stupid country at the moment.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

It's hard to pick sides in a world where assholes are everywhere.
People on the left celebrating the killing of Israelis: assholes.
People anywhere calling Hamas' attack unprovoked: assholes.
Is climate change creating a surfeit of assholes?
Can the mainstream media ever frame an issue correctly? Ratings require the graphic images of violence by 'Terrorists.' Why change a winning formula?
Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel all live under various regimes of organized discrimination and oppression, much of which makes life nearly unlivable, and if the US media canrCOt even frame the issue correctly, what use is there in even covering it?
The American reflexive identification with Israel always obscures the fuller picture of whatrCOs happening between Israel and the Palestinians. It doesn't help when in the UN we state that the US: unequivocally condemns the unprovoked attacks by Hamas terrorists against Israeli civilians.rCY
This is Putin-like lying by the Biden administration.
This attack was not unprovoked. What's a provocation?
Are the frequent attacks by far-right Israelis under the protection of Israeli police on the Al-Aqsa Mosque a provocation?
When some 800 Jewish settlers stormed the mosque on October 5, was it a provocation?
Is the killing of 248 Palestinians by Israeli forces or settlers between 1 January and 4 October of this year a provocation?
Is perhaps the denial of Palestinian human rights and national aspirations for decades, a provocation?
US news, on the other hand, frames events as if Israel is merely reacting to Palestinian attacks.
The Great American Lazy Mind need no more detail. Behold!
The Washington-Jerusalem Axis-of-Evil.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:37:25rC>AM UTC-10, Tiglath wrote:

It's hard to pick sides in a world where assholes are everywhere.

People on the left celebrating the killing of Israelis: assholes.

People anywhere calling Hamas' attack unprovoked: assholes.

Is climate change creating a surfeit of assholes?

Can the mainstream media ever frame an issue correctly? Ratings require the graphic images of violence by 'Terrorists.' Why change a winning formula?

Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel all live under various regimes of organized discrimination and oppression, much of which makes life nearly unlivable, and if the US media canrCOt even frame the issue correctly, what use is there in even covering it?

The American reflexive identification with Israel always obscures the fuller picture of whatrCOs happening between Israel and the Palestinians. It doesn't help when in the UN we state that the US: unequivocally condemns the unprovoked attacks by Hamas terrorists against Israeli civilians.rCY

This is Putin-like lying by the Biden administration.

This attack was not unprovoked. What's a provocation?

Are the frequent attacks by far-right Israelis under the protection of Israeli police on the Al-Aqsa Mosque a provocation?

When some 800 Jewish settlers stormed the mosque on October 5, was it a provocation?

Is the killing of 248 Palestinians by Israeli forces or settlers between 1 January and 4 October of this year a provocation?

Is perhaps the denial of Palestinian human rights and national aspirations for decades, a provocation?

The Great American Lazy Mind need no more detail. Behold!

READ, MARK, LEARN AND INWARDLY DIGEST:
There are two Palestinian States ---- Israel and Jordan
DSH
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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

I see too much confusion for any of this to end well. Avoidable confusion, that is. To avoid confusion, just like some math problems, is best to start from first principles and the salient facts.
Why even apparently good articles like https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/opinion/israel-gaza-antisemitism.html fail to provide needed clarity?
The article doesnrCOt even define rCyZionismrCO to make things clear. For me, Zionism refers to a somewhat radical and sometimes violent political movement in the early 20th century that supported the belief of European Jews that they had a right to Palestine as a new homeland. They went ahead, took it and didnrCOt ask nicely, exactly as Ben Gurion had promised they would.
The conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is intentional. One said that you canrCOt be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, citing that equally you could not be against the civil rights movement and condemn racism at the same time. ItrCOs an inappropriate example. There are no human rights being trampled if Zionists donrCOt get all of Palestine.
All kind of irrelevancies make it to the front page. rCLIsrael has the right to exist.rCY It is a simplistic statement that leaves out what needs to be said, that IsraelrCOs existence must to be implemented a different way. One that is not to the serious detriment of millions of their neighbors. This is a territorial dispute, not a philosophical one. itrCOs not subjective.
The moral high ground cannot possible depend on who commits the most or least shocking atrocities, unless we forget that war is hell. We shouldnrCOt if we have to assign blame justly.
Atrocities are not the root problem, the root problem is the war, and to assign blame we need to know who provoked it. No fog of war obscures the answer. The casus belli is clearly the Zionist land-grabbing thatrCOs been going on for the last 120 years. He who starts is to blame, for one. As I said before: rCyWe see the existence of "beginning wrongful violence" as an offense in Athenian law. See Antiphon, Lysias, Isocrates and Demosthenes.rCO
Are Palestinian blameless and corruption free? ThatrCOs is the wrong question in this conversation. On the land-robbing question, they are certainly blameless. Did they commit barbarous acts. YES. Because itrCOs a bloody war, not a fashion show. And no matter the fashion in which they fail to resist conquest, they didnrCOt ask for any of this, and they will ALWAYS have a good reason for their terrorism, as good, I dare say, as John Adams, Tom Jefferson, et al, had.
Conquest has been sort of legal in human affairs because conquerors said so, and they also wrote the history. No wonder that after the worse couple of wars ever, in the last century, with only Pyrrhic victories to be had, the survivors gathered and decided at long last that conquest is a bad thing, and that 50 million dead by bullet, explosive or worse, was a clue not to be missed. So, after those wars the United Nations made conquest illegal, and a violation of international law.
So, whoever, pushes people out of their homes at bayonet point, AFTER 1945, is an international criminal. BEFORE, they get a pass. If Jordan or Syria or any other Arab country that was an UN state member at the time, pushed Jews out of their land at bayonet point, let them be punished. Goose-gander, punish Zionists equally for similar violations.
This would not apply to Palestinians, however, as far as the law, since they are not a country that is a full UN member. It is an important difference that puts Palestinians on high ground, legally and morally.
Finally, to resolve any pending ambiguity, if you take the land under Israel control today, and subtract the land that was granted in 1948, you will see a large remainder. That is the land Israel conquered illegally as UN member.
Can you do the same for the Palestinians, or other Arabs for that matter. Are they holding any land illegally? I donrCOt think so. This indicates also were guilt should be placed.
Finally, what do you say to a Palestinian who complaints about the war. Do you say. rCLYou should get out of the Promise LandrCY? I hope not, but there is no better answer either.
What do you say to an Israeli who complains about the war? ThatrCOs an easy one. You say the same we said to Japan, if you give Pearl Harbors, you get Hiroshimas.
The rCyPearl HarborrCO Zionists gave Palestinians is called the the Nakba (the catastrophe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Naturally, poor Palestinians have much less than a Hiroshima to offer in reply, but they do what they can, and I applaud their courage, knowing the likely consequences.
Hamas are terrorists. They fit the original definition, before 9/11 completely charged the word with all kinds of nastiness, forgetting that the French Resistance and the Founding Fathers were terrorists too. So sorry that political complexities cannot be carried by a single word. A terrorist can be a good guy, after all, if they fight the Reich, King George, or land-robbing Zion.
Terrorists who fight to bring back medieval religious practices, like ISIS, are not the good guys clearly, by a vast difference, and yet we use the same word. More confusionrCa
So, since 1948, who is that clings to the land obtained by acts of conquest? ItrCOs Zion again.
Israel IS a democracy, but more like that of Athens than the European and American democracies of today. They have elections and thatrCOs it. They also have Arab citizens that are officially discriminated. If this is a reason to think supporting Israel come what may, and the high price we are paying for it financially and reputationally is a good investmentrCa itrCOs a rather poor one.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 12:41:40 -0800 (PST), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

I see too much confusion for any of this to end well. Avoidable confusion, that is. To avoid confusion, just like some math problems, is best to start from first principles and the salient facts.

Why even apparently good articles like https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/opinion/israel-gaza-antisemitism.html fail to provide needed clarity?

The article doesnAt even define aZionismA to make things clear. For me, Zionism refers to a somewhat radical and sometimes violent political movement in the early 20th century that supported the belief of European Jews that they had a right to Palestine as a new homeland. They went ahead, took it and didnAt ask nicely, exactly as Ben Gurion had promised they would.

The conflation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is intentional. One said that you canAt be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, citing that equally you could not be against the civil rights movement and condemn racism at the same time. ItAs an inappropriate example. There are no human rights being trampled if Zionists donAt get all of Palestine.

All kind of irrelevancies make it to the front page. oIsrael has the right to exist.o It is a simplistic statement that leaves out what needs to be said, that IsraelAs existence must to be implemented a different way. One that is not to the serious detriment of millions of their neighbors. This is a territorial dispute, not a philosophical one. itAs not subjective.

The moral high ground cannot possible depend on who commits the most or least shocking atrocities, unless we forget that war is hell. We shouldnAt if we have to assign blame justly.

Atrocities are not the root problem, the root problem is the war, and to assign blame we need to know who provoked it. No fog of war obscures the answer. The casus belli is clearly the Zionist land-grabbing thatAs been going on for the last 120 years. He who starts is to blame, for one. As I said before: aWe see the existence of "beginning wrongful violence" as an offense in Athenian law. See Antiphon, Lysias, Isocrates and Demosthenes.A

Are Palestinian blameless and corruption free? ThatAs is the wrong question in this conversation. On the land-robbing question, they are certainly blameless. Did they commit barbarous acts. YES. Because itAs a bloody war, not a fashion show. And no matter the fashion in which they fail to resist conquest, they didnAt ask for any of this, and they will ALWAYS have a good reason for their terrorism, as good, I dare say, as John Adams, Tom Jefferson, et al, had.

Conquest has been sort of legal in human affairs because conquerors said so, and they also wrote the history. No wonder that after the worse couple of wars ever, in the last century, with only Pyrrhic victories to be had, the survivors gathered and decided at long last that conquest is a bad thing, and that 50 million dead by bullet, explosive or worse, was a clue not to be missed. So, after those wars the United Nations made conquest illegal, and a violation of international law.

So, whoever, pushes people out of their homes at bayonet point, AFTER 1945, is an international criminal. BEFORE, they get a pass. If Jordan or Syria or any other Arab country that was an UN state member at the time, pushed Jews out of their land at bayonet point, let them be punished. Goose-gander, punish Zionists equally for similar violations.

This would not apply to Palestinians, however, as far as the law, since they are not a country that is a full UN member. It is an important difference that puts Palestinians on high ground, legally and morally.

Finally, to resolve any pending ambiguity, if you take the land under Israel control today, and subtract the land that was granted in 1948, you will see a large remainder. That is the land Israel conquered illegally as UN member.
Can you do the same for the Palestinians, or other Arabs for that matter. Are they holding any land illegally? I donAt think so. This indicates also were guilt should be placed.

Finally, what do you say to a Palestinian who complaints about the war. Do you say. oYou should get out of the Promise Lando? I hope not, but there is no better answer either.

What do you say to an Israeli who complains about the war? ThatAs an easy one. You say the same we said to Japan, if you give Pearl Harbors, you get Hiroshimas.

The aPearl HarborA Zionists gave Palestinians is called the the Nakba (the catastrophe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

Naturally, poor Palestinians have much less than a Hiroshima to offer in reply, but they do what they can, and I applaud their courage, knowing the likely consequences.

Hamas are terrorists. They fit the original definition, before 9/11 completely charged the word with all kinds of nastiness, forgetting that the French Resistance and the Founding Fathers were terrorists too. So sorry that political complexities cannot be carried by a single word. A terrorist can be a good guy, after all, if they fight the Reich, King George, or land-robbing Zion.

Terrorists who fight to bring back medieval religious practices, like ISIS, are not the good guys clearly, by a vast difference, and yet we use the same word. More confusiona

So, since 1948, who is that clings to the land obtained by acts of conquest? ItAs Zion again.

Israel IS a democracy, but more like that of Athens than the European and American democracies of today. They have elections and thatAs it. They also have Arab citizens that are officially discriminated. If this is a reason to think supporting Israel come what may, and the high price we are paying for it financially and reputationally is a good investmenta itAs a rather poor one.

Their "democracy" is tainted by the theocrats, the furry Hasidics who
wield great power in the parliament.
History's greatest Jewish ghetto is unlikely to survive the USA as
this latter's power decreases in time, to be replaced by Asia's.
The expense of propping up this theocracy, together with the areas
instability is something the USA can decreasingly afford.

Bring back Trump!
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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 4:55:32rC>PM UTC-5, Peter Jason wrote:

Their "democracy" is tainted by the theocrats, the furry Hasidics who
wield great power in the parliament.
History's greatest Jewish ghetto is unlikely to survive the USA as
this latter's power decreases in time, to be replaced by Asia's.
The expense of propping up this theocracy, together with the areas instability is something the USA can decreasingly afford.

Bring back Trump!

Clearly you have never lived under an autocracy. Fortunate for you, but not for your thinking.
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Israel is like Trump. Always WORSE than we predicted.
These two godzillas need slaying, yesterday. Enough said.
--
I have a persistent question about Trump... What does he do to men that become so willing to empty themselves at Trump's service until they are used up, often facing jail time? They burn their credibility first. Some try to recover it, like William Barr, Anthony Scaramucci, Chris Christie and others. It's hard to do because once you've seen them as sycophants, as they were for a long time, then the impression is made. They served and lied for Trump, passionately. We cannot forget. But there has to be more.
I think Trump's strategy with people he selects as his puppets is to put them in a position of debt to him, and allowing Trump to have dirt on them. Which brings in entertainment. As president, Trump entertains at the taxpayers' cost and naturally he is lavish. Trump shows associates how power entertains itself. Sex, money, private planes, food and beverages and golf galore, and most of all something that costs Trump nothing, public elevation. Just by being next to Trump you become known worldwide. Lawyers, secretaries, and other allies of the moment have a shortcut to fame, which they milk with books and other hustles. You can see it today, with his female lawyer Alina; she is having enough exposure to make her think of coming to Washington with Trump, if he wins, and she talks like a politician now. Let's see how far this one goes... That's how she gets paid, anyway, a chance of a toe in the door of the big game. These people have two thing in the cards: a post as a powerful official or a collaboration with news networks for regular appearances... Two mutually reinforcing plump opportunities to cash in on the fame windfall. For the criminally inclined, there is all kinds of illicit sex and dirty money they can pursue in that world, of course.
Trump has Giuliani by the balls. The horny mayor has for sure consumed plenty of the low hanging fruit Trump puts out for puppets to feast on, as incentive and reward for torching their reputation on the Trump altar. Hard drinking makes the mayor extra careless; most likely there is a Giuliani pee tape or equivalent. And he knows it. Poor guy, from national celebrity to having to sell his organs on the dark web. Watch out for a bum liver, guys.
This is also the only explanation as well for the undying loyalty seen in people he fired. They take their wounds gladly for another shot at a spot in the Trump Entourage, despite growing evidence that to hang with Trump is to hang with Trump, or worse, for Trump.
Alan Dershowitz is an intriguing case. How can a man of his intellectual qualities be a staunch defender of Trump, in the face of the evidence?
First I thought that since Dershowitz is a committed Zionist, he likes Trump because supported making Jerusalem Israel's capital and other favors... But that does not explain the level of intervention in the cases Trump is litigating, as a credible legal mind staking his reputation. Top lawyers are great at sophistry. These people also try to make plain language not mean what it says, in the ConstitutionrCa Semantic games are their specialty.
Wasn't Dershowitz caught having underage action on Fantasy Island? As guest of Jeffrey Epstein? HerCOs been able to dodge that bullet so far, but I see more names are coming out related to that case. Alan must be sweating bullets. Behold: Trump and his Dirty Old Men.
Professor Dersh's latest arguments are that Jan 6th was not an insurrection and that it is up to Congress to define what an insurrection is. A curious pair, since he truth of the latter precludes the truth of the former.
We used to do this here, remember? Any Joe Refuter armed with a terrible argument or not armed at all could dig his heels in and keep a thread going by asking opponents to define every other term. Nasty old trick. The professor estimates his powers of sophistry to be such that itrCOs worth engaging in this kind of lying to people who were witnesses to the insurrection and aware of the results of the following investigations. The balls on the guy... A good dictionary suffices to know what insurrection means, if you still don't know. Congress is certainly not a good source, especially this Congress. More semantic games, the lowest form of legal defense. Dersh has to defend the man who has bad dirt on him, always.
How elevatingrCa the glorious times we are living.
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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On 12/22/23 23:47, Tiglath wrote:

Israel is like Trump. Always WORSE than we predicted.
These two godzillas need slaying, yesterday. Enough said.

Again, the evil jerk Tiglath makes clear his anti-semitic wishes.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
an-+ti-Se-+mit-+ic
/-ian-it-2s+O-emidik,-ian(t)-os+O-emidik/
adjective
hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people.
"anti-Semitic remarks were posted on the site"

Antisemitism

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org rC| wiki rC| Antisemitism
Antisemitism is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination
against Jews. This sentiment is a form of racism, and a person who
harbours it is called ...
rCAUnited States -+ rCAHistory -+ rCAReligious antisemitism -+ rCAAnti-Judaism

Things change Tiglath.
Sure, in 1492 your old homeland kicked all the Jews out.
But Israel is not going to allow itself to be "slayed".



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"Sir, you are in the wrong section."
Motherfucker a425couple craves attention... sorry fresh out...
He is like the plebeian in steerage who sneaks into a first class seat, sticks out like a sore thumb and is promptly kicked out, with a humiliating public rebuke as he drags his ass back to economy, where the cattle noises come from.
Get out, you and your unfresh airs, motherfucker. We've just cleaned around here.
Hilarious!
------------------------Cordon Sanitaire-----------------------------
On Saturday, December 23, 2023 at 3:51:11rC>PM UTC-5, a425couple wrote:
<fart>
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