From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

Fact: the illegal immigration problem was not created by the Democratic party or the Labour Party or the liberal establishment. Not at all.
We (the West) had it coming. Neither the GOP nor Sexy Suella can fix it either.
They tried, remember? The Wall. Enough said.
The problem is not national but hemispheric.
It's a global problem just like global warming, plastic in the oceans, and Covid.
The culprit though is not emissions, the disposable wrapper habit, or naughty bats. The culprit controls vasts swaths of the planet, there is no vaccine against it, engineers can't do much about it, and we face a monumental amount of work to change the situation.
Two main factors at work: The incredible success of the West taking giant transformational steps in the ages of industry, space and information, similar to that of agriculture some 12-15 thousand years ago. Change so rapid that our bodies and brains are still made from the template of the Upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherer rather that for the industrialist or the geek. The mismatch is so burdensome that obliges people to expend energy to exercise for no other need that keeping body and brain healthy and fit, while cousin chimpanzee can lounge, a couch potato all day long and still enjoy an Olympic body. Yes, the West has been THAT productive and successful
The other factor is widespread bad governance. A real plague of bad regimes. We know Africa can sustain human life quite well. Yet, whyBecau are so many Africans jumping ship? Maya, Aztec and Inca managed prosperous civilizations in Central and South America, so why are millions of Hispanics risking life and limb, themselves and their children, to scoot over here?
Because millions of people live miserable lives under criminal and inhuman regimes. News of Western Paradise was slow to reach the poor confines of Africa and America, until the advent of television, and then WHAM! The Internet.
Little consolation is that today even the poorest of the poor has access to cellular service, theirs or a friend's, and a phone in hand. Enough to keep peeping into the lives people live in the West. You can watch the Kardashians on your phone, from your straw hut, where most of your meals are spent shooing roaches off your meager grub. A human 101 brain in tribulation will seek to get to a better place at some point. Having little to lose brings determination.
Economic disparity acts like voltage on anode and cathode. Illegal immigration is the voltaic arc. We are in dire need to lower the tension lest we blow a fuse, as we are about to, as the waves of immigrants only get worse because the exacerbating factors mentioned are still very much at play.
The solution has several prongs. The economic one can be summed up with, "Turn all of Central America into Cancun," and they will stop wanting for a job here.
It can't be done as long as the gangster regimes continue to corrupt any initiative that would benefit the people at large. So the most important prong is to effect regime change in those places. To ferret out dictators, that is.
If the first cut is the deepest, we couldn't do better than to dethrone Putin, first and foremost. The other African, Central American and South American dictators are small fry compared to Putin. Bringing Little Vlad down, would send a powerful signal... time's up! It's a start worth a try, and now that we know the problem, we should stop playing silly buggers, and stop pretending that some legislation in the US or Europe to repel invaders will prevail. To stop border crossings you will have to shoot people, no less. They are THAT determined, the voltage is high. We are magnetic, so to speak, just as Europe where prosperity carries the additional sin of having come largely from abused colonies.
Think about THIS next time your politician talks about solutions to the border problem. It's not the border, idiot, it's the planet. And it's complicated.
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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 02:56:44 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
wrote:

Fact: the illegal immigration problem was not created by the Democratic party or the Labour Party or the liberal establishment. Not at all.

We (the West) had it coming. Neither the GOP nor Sexy Suella can fix it either.

They tried, remember? The Wall. Enough said.

The problem is not national but hemispheric.

The problem began in the 1960s with the dismantling of colonialism.

No example is better than that of Rhodesia.

The West has the infrastructure to support industrial growth,
railways, water reticulation, power grids etc, all of which are
susceptible to civil and tribal unrest.

Colonialism, better named "partnership" could supply some control and
certainly good advice regarding governance.

But alas, Democracy touted by the West (especially the USA) was
supposed to be a fixit for everything. People want stability and
progress more than they want idealism in government.

Putin is a bad boy but if he can supply stability in Russia then
that's a plus. The USA is questioning the old Democracy concept after
the Trump episode, and if the voting public really know what they
want.

QED

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From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

Tiglath

Fact: the illegal immigration problem was not created by the Democratic party or the
Labour Party or the liberal establishment. Not at all.

Agreed, but it is the Left that amplifies the problem by providing welfare handouts to
illegals while literally calling for more to pour into the U.S. and Europe. Entire article at: https://nypost.com/2023/10/12/ice-admits-5-7-million-migrants-in-us-biden-rrm/amp/
Oct. 12, 2023
"ICE admits record 5.7 million migrants in US rCo Biden wants to provide rCymedical services,
housingrCO to all
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is overseeing 5.7 million migrants in the US
rCo who could soon be provided free medical services, food and even housing by the Biden
administration, The Post has learned."

Two main factors at work: The incredible success of the West

Indeed, this uncontrolled mass migration (that is being encouraged by the Left) is
wholly economic but the reason the West is successful is because we're not shithole
third-world countries but if we keep letting anybody and everybody in, we will be.

The other factor is widespread bad governance.

That is also further encouraged by the Left, as the uncontrolled mass migration allows
these shithole countries to pawn off their excess population (which is almost exclusively
the dregs of their society) onto the U.S. and Europe to take care of.

To stop border crossings you will have to shoot people, no less. They are THAT determined

"Determined"? They can simply walk over the border and will be given welfare.

It's not the border, idiot, it's the planet.

The border can easily be locked down by the military, whose JOB is to secure the border.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 5:11:23rC>PM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:
[...]
Left, Left, Left and more Left.
Do you ever admit anything the Right does wrong? Like.... Trump?
Or the current state of your favorite party? Come on, man. I don't even see a remote attempt at fairness and truth in your reasoning.

To stop border crossings you will have to shoot people, no less. They are THAT determined

"Determined"? They can simply walk over the border and will be given welfare.

Yeah a 'simple walk.' Oh boy. Another exaggeration that hurts your argument.
There are valid criticism of the Left. You just don't seem to find them, and prefer the ridiculous exaggerations Fox News feeds you. Who is it? Hannity, or that aggressive ram forehead called Mark Levin? Regardless, they pull the wool over your eyes every time you watch, much as it sounds like music to your ears.

It's not the border, idiot, it's the planet.

The border can easily be locked down by the military, whose JOB is to secure the border.

Why don't you criticize the GOP for NOT DOING that? Or Trump for not finishing his all-important wall? Silence on those, I see.
The military's job is certainly not to secure our border, by the way. We have a specialized service for that.
The durable solution is not walls or troops, the solution is to address THE ROOT of the problem, and that is a global endeavor, not just a country's problem. That was the gist of the post. Think bigger.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

Tiglath

Ed Stasiak

Agreed, but it is the Left that amplifies the problem by providing welfare handouts
to illegals while literally calling for more to pour into the U.S. and Europe.

Do you ever admit anything the Right does wrong? Like.... Trump?

lol, right on cue... https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d6/2e/5f/d62e5fa849f06b3ba1d0e86caa72e4c2.jpg

Or the current state of your favorite party?

My political views depend on the issue, I don't take marching orders from any party.

Come on, man. I don't even see a remote attempt at fairness and truth in your reasoning.

"ICE admits record 5.7 million migrants in US rCo Biden wants to provide medical services,
housingrCO to all"
Where's the lie?

"Determined"? They can simply walk over the border and will be given welfare.

Yeah a 'simple walk.' Oh boy. Another exaggeration that hurts your argument.

Yes, illegals can in fact simply walk into the U.S. and get a whole raft of welfare
benefits and if a chick drops a baby on our side of the border, the kid is automatically
a citizen and the illegal parents can stay and eventually bring over their whole clan.

There are valid criticism of the Left. You just don't seem to find them,

Do you deny that the Left is encouraging an uncontrolled mass migration of third-worlders
into the U.S. and Europe and demanding that these economic migrants should get all kinda
benefits, at the expense of the tax paying legal citizens?

The border can easily be locked down by the military, whose JOB is to secure the border.

Why don't you criticize the GOP for NOT DOING that?

They are also to blame, as they're in the Wall Street Globalist's pocket just like the Dems.

Or Trump for not finishing his all-important wall? Silence on those, I see.

Trump was fucked the moment he won in 2016, the entire System lined up to prevent him from
accomplishing anything, even his own party was out to get him.

The border can easily be locked down by the military, whose JOB is to secure the border.

The military's job is certainly not to secure our border, by the way.

It absolutely is, or did the U.S. military violate the Posse Comitatus Act when it shot down
Japanese Zeros over Pearl Harbor?

We have a specialized service for that.

Immigration agents can tag along with the military units securing our border and process
any illegals caught in the net but a far better use of the U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement agency, should be busting employers and landlords who enable and profit
off the illegal mass migration.
If illegals can't get a job or a place to live, they won't come here illegally.

The durable solution is not walls or troops, the solution is to address THE ROOT of the
problem, and that is a global endeavor, not just a country's problem. That was the gist of
the post.

The immediate problem is locking down the border and tightly controlling immigration, which
will give the West the time, space and money to address ALL the global problem, something
the U.S. has been working at since WWII and continues to do so.
Because by every quality of life metric, the world is a better place today because of the
efforts of the West and the U.S. in particular and throwing open the border and letting
everyone in for a free ride, is a recipe for global disaster.

Think bigger.

Pick up the check.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 5:11:23rC>PM UTC-4, Ed Stasiak wrote:

Tiglath

Fact: the illegal immigration problem was not created by the Democratic party or the
Labour Party or the liberal establishment. Not at all.

Agreed, but it is the Left that amplifies the problem by providing welfare handouts to
illegals while literally calling for more to pour into the U.S. and Europe.

As usual you make out things to be absolute, when they are in fact (very) relative. I am sure you can find examples when illegal immigrants have just walk into our country and found welfare help. I believe you.
What I don't believe is your making it the general case, when in fact thousands of illegals are deported regularly, or sent back somehow.
Our disagreement cannot be resolved, because you -- incomprehensibly -- you consider people who want to come here TO WORK, an act of aggression by a foreign power requiring military action.
As if families with children looking for a better life were like Japs on a Zero. Ridiculous. Your Fox News intoxication is getting seriously acute, man.
On the other hand, I see how immigrants have NEVER ceased to enter the US, at varying rates, and in part illegally, for over 200 years. Yet I fail to see the consequences you make out are so grave that we have to defend against immigrants as if we had to repel an enemy.
When are you projecting that immigrants will completely fuck up this country and demonstrably allow you to go, "I told you so," which will vindicate and justify all the bile you ooze against them? Any ETA?
In fact the truth, all over the US, is that 99.99% of immigrants, legal or not, eventually become TAXPAYERS. And they are also (luckily) willing to do the menial jobs superior Americans won't do. Some (or their children) become doctors or scientists, like the two who invented the Covid vaccine. So what's not to love?
I'll tell you what's not to love. They are not like YOU. And I have news for you. Most of the world IS NOT like you, or me. Get use to it. I also recommend travel, travel, and more travel, so you can see for yourself how non-Americans are real people, as deserving of a good life as you or me. Some of them, those who yearn to go to a better place, were fucked by the accident of birth. Something that could have happened to you, but instead you won the cosmic lottery and were born American.
Share your good luck a little, man.
---
The Posse Comitatus Act is a criminal prohibition that provides the following: Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act
of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Air Force, or the
Space Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
So the military DOES NOT deal with federal law enforcement, by design, and neither does the National Guard unless it is activated as a federal force under extraordinary circumstances. At the state level, the National Guard can assist border guards, but they are not the specialized service in charge of that function.
Did Trump let any illegal immigrants in? He must have because he DID NOT built a wall, as promised.
Yes or no?
If yes, you should shut the fuck up about Democrats letting immigrants in, at long last like a broken record while ignoring all the immigrants that came here during Republican administrations.
The problem with partisan hacks is that they are completely oblivious to the fact that when the government changes hands to another party, life doesn't change that much -- including immigration.
That tells you that all those gripes about Dems (or Republicans) destroying the country are pure bullshit.
Less bull, please.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: soc.history.medieval

Tiglath

Ed Stasiak

Agreed, but it is the Left that amplifies the problem by providing welfare handouts
to illegals while literally calling for more to pour into the U.S. and Europe.

What I don't believe is your making it the general case, when in fact thousands of illegals are deported regularly, or sent back somehow.

A drop in the bucket and a far smaller one then official records provide,
as we have no idea just how many illegals are in the U.S. or Europe.

Our disagreement cannot be resolved, because you -- incomprehensibly --
you consider people who want to come here TO WORK, an act of aggression
by a foreign power requiring military action.

Yeah, why would blue-collar working class Americans (the majority of people)
be mad about bazillions of illegals pouring into the country, driving down wages
and decreasing benefits (which only benefits Wall Street fatcats) while driving up the cost of living and increasing taxes to pay for all that welfare?...

As if families with children looking for a better life were like Japs
on a Zero. Ridiculous.

I wish them luck on making a better life, but not at my expense.

Allowing uncontrolled mass migration does NOT result in assimilation into
the native culture, as the continual influx of migrants means they simply transplant their culture whole-cloth into the host nation and impose it on
the natives.

Yet I fail to see the consequences you make out are so grave that we have
to defend against immigrants as if we had to repel an enemy.

As a history nerd, you should already be aware of the consequences.

The ancient Indo-European migration to Spain resulted in 90% of the existing native male population being killed off and replaced.

And here today in the U.S. instead of Hispanic-Americans, we're getting Hispanics IN America and at 19% of the population and growing (at least officially, there are actually far more) they're steadily turning the U.S. _into_ Mexico.

On the other hand, I see how immigrants have NEVER ceased to enter the
US, at varying rates, and in part illegally, for over 200 years.

Immigration in the past was limited by law and the ability to migrate.

My Polish immigrant parents were literally off the boat and had to wait their turn in war-torn post-WWII Europe until they could legally come over and once they got here, there was no welfare handouts for them.

When are you projecting that immigrants will completely fuck up this
country and demonstrably allow you to go, "I told you so," which will vindicate and justify all the bile you ooze against them? Any ETA?

Again, it's happened throughout history all over the world, ask the (remaining) American-Indians how that worked out for them.

In fact the truth, all over the US, is that 99.99% of immigrants,

The 57% of Euro-Americans in the U.S. are Americans because their ancestors were _forced_ to assimilate by an overwhelming American majority who had
no interest in catering to the immigrant's culture.

The same pretty much applies to Asian-Americans, as they're only 6% of the population and can't maintain a native society with such small numbers.

legal or not, eventually become TAXPAYERS.

Only if they have to assimilate, otherwise they have a negative lifetime "return on investment" and this drags down the nation as a whole and makes
it all that much harder for the U.S. and the West to improve the planet.

And they are also (luckily) willing to do the menial jobs superior Americans won't do.

Those jobs are only "menial" because wages and benefits are driven down
by the massive influx of cheep foreign labor.

Growing up, my dad worked in the auto industry and got a pension, my mom
worked in meat packing and got a pension, my godmother worked the deli
counter at the local grocery store and got a pension and our next-door
neighbor filled vending machines and even he got a pension.

Mow your own fucking lawn, you lazy boomer.

Some (or their children) become doctors or scientists, like the two who invented the Covid vaccine. So what's not to love?

Once again; only because they assimilated but allowing a continual influx
of migrants only "refreshes" the transplanted foreign culture. Why become
an American when you can keep living as a Mexican while gaining the benefits
of living in America?

When my parents came to Detroit after the war, they moved to the enclave city of Hamtramck because it was 90%+ Polish (as was much of the entire east side) and at the time, one didn't need to assimilate, as there were Polish stores, Polish
churches, Polish schools, etc. but because of the Iron Curtain, this influx of Poles
was halted and their children and grandchildren became Americans as there was no pressure or incentive to remain Polish.

I can barely speak Polish and my Polish-American friends whose grandparents were the immigrants, are Americans thru-and-thru.

I'll tell you what's not to love. They are not like YOU.

Nonsense, their American-born kids are exactly like me, or would be if they weren't immersed in their parent's assbackward Old Country culture 24-7-365.

And I have news for you. Most of the world IS NOT like you, or me.

And most of the world outside the West is objectively a shithole. Hell, why didn't you stay in your native Spain, why did you immigrate to the U.S.?

instead you won the cosmic lottery and were born American.

And I thank God for that! I visited Poland back in 1977 when I was 9 years
old with my ex-pat parents and while I had fun at the time, looking back on
it now, no fuck'n way would I have wanted to live there.

Share your good luck a little, man.

Foreigners need to make their own luck and fix their homelands, not run off
to the U.S. and expect me to pay their way in life.

The Posse Comitatus Act is a criminal prohibition that provides the following:

The Posse Comitatus Act relates to the U.S. military's actions in relation to American citizens, it does not apply to foreign invaders.
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