It is not possible to conclude something with mtDNA because
the MT chromosome is too small
Hi all:
I am admin of the French Heritage DNA project on FTDNA and built my
own database where I integrate the studied lineages.
From time to time, I get some coherent Y DNA results for 2 gateway
ancestors. It is not possible to conclude something with mtDNA because
the MT chromosome is too small. But the Y chromosome is 63 Mpb long
so a time line is possible.
We can do nothing if the family names are different, but there are
more and more cases with 2 pioneers with coherent results and they
are not always from the next town !
The first one was found by the late Larry Vizenor in 2008, about
(unnamed) TORTOCHOT in France, married in 1684, no parents given, and
Louis TOURTEAUCHAUX married before 1684. Distance is about 55 km.
Links involving the noble Verdun and Havilan back to around year 1000. Including Verdun seigneurs de Doriere and Fauchon issued from the
Doriere
https://fmg.ac/images/foundations/vol15/JN15-02-X.pdf
The Massicotte from Charente-Maritime matching some Machicot from
Ari|?ge. Distance is nearly 500 km so I suppose that the common
ancestor is probably living before year 1500.
2 Bergeron pioneers, 2 Gelinas/Gelineau, 2 Boucher, 2 Dore,
2 Gauthier, 2 Suzor, etc.
There are more and more, but they are mostly commoners so the
medieval link is only virtual.
My own closer DNA cousins before my ancestor left France in 1665
are a group of Armenians, likely descending either some Crusader
or from a companion of Marco Polo or another explorer of that era.
The common ancestor is estimated to be living between 800 and
1300.
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:33:53 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
My own closer DNA cousins before my ancestor left France in 1665
are a group of Armenians, likely descending either some Crusader
or from a companion of Marco Polo or another explorer of that era.
The common ancestor is estimated to be living between 800 and
1300.
how did find the dna of these long dead medieval people?
Hi all:
I am admin of the French Heritage DNA project on FTDNA and built my
own database where I integrate the studied lineages.
From time to time, I get some coherent Y DNA results for 2 gateway ancestors. It is not possible to conclude something with mtDNA because
the MT chromosome is too small. But the Y chromosome is 63 Mpb long
so a time line is possible.
We can do nothing if the family names are different, but there are
more and more cases with 2 pioneers with coherent results and they
are not always from the next town !
The first one was found by the late Larry Vizenor in 2008, about
(unnamed) TORTOCHOT in France, married in 1684, no parents given, and
Louis TOURTEAUCHAUX married before 1684. Distance is about 55 km.
Links involving the noble Verdun and Havilan back to around year 1000. Including Verdun seigneurs de Doriere and Fauchon issued from the
Doriere
https://fmg.ac/images/foundations/vol15/JN15-02-X.pdf
The Massicotte from Charente-Maritime matching some Machicot from
Ari|?ge. Distance is nearly 500 km so I suppose that the common
ancestor is probably living before year 1500.
2 Bergeron pioneers, 2 Gelinas/Gelineau, 2 Boucher, 2 Dore,
2 Gauthier, 2 Suzor, etc.
There are more and more, but they are mostly commoners so the
medieval link is only virtual.
My own closer DNA cousins before my ancestor left France in 1665
are a group of Armenians, likely descending either some Crusader
or from a companion of Marco Polo or another explorer of that era.
The common ancestor is estimated to be living between 800 and
1300.
Denis
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 17:48:18 +0000, miked <mike@library.net> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:33:53 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
[..]
My own closer DNA cousins before my ancestor left France in 1665
are a group of Armenians, likely descending either some Crusader
or from a companion of Marco Polo or another explorer of that era.
The common ancestor is estimated to be living between 800 and
1300.
how did find the dna of these long dead medieval people?
I don't. These tests are typically made from 2 living persons and
confirmed by coherent results and documented lineages for the
genealogical time, and by identified mutations in the Y chromosome
(the average is 1 mutation, called SNP, per 82 years for the test
named Big Y 700).
So in my personal case, my ancestor is born in France in 1642.
He has 4 known sons. I have many lineages from 3 sons with coherent
results (the actual result may defined on the lab or on the test).
I may have found one from the 4th son (but a new tester is needed).
You obviously are very enthusiastic about this dna research, but can i
just check if i understand the basis for this. It looks like your saying >becos you _know_ that someone alive today is descended from mr X in the >middle ages, therefore anyone with a match to that persons Y dna must
also be descended from mr X and so on.
You obviously are very enthusiastic about this dna research, but can i
just check if i understand the basis for this. It looks like your saying becos you _know_ that someone alive today is descended from mr X in the middle ages, therefore anyone with a match to that persons Y dna must
also be descended from mr X and so on.
mike
On 2/18/2025 6:29 PM, miked wrote:
You obviously are very enthusiastic about this dna research, but can i just check if i understand the basis for this. It looks like your saying becos you _know_ that someone alive today is descended from mr X in the middle ages, therefore anyone with a match to that persons Y dna must
also be descended from mr X and so on.
mike
Its a bit more complicated! One also has to prove that all these men
descend from HIM and NOT from his father.-a Thus, you need a marker for
him, and optionally one for his father, or at least one present in him
and not his father.-a You need men with paper trails to both men.-a We've got tons of men to Lord John. We have some to his father and tons to his grandfather (from whom descend the McAlister chiefs). STRs won't
normally do. In this particular case they are over 99% accurate compared
to the definitive test (see below.)
We have enough for reasonable proof.
Interestingly, the marker for Lord John himself is neither an STR nor
a SNP. Its a 9415 base segmental delete that can only be "properly" seen
in sequences aligned to the T2T reference, not Build 38. We have this
only for me. It can easily be seen in Build 38 by observing
three smaller deletes that are misassigned in 38.
Its called CLD56, i.e. the 56th "SNP" I discovered in the earliest
BigYs (ordered up the day it was announced.) At first FTDNA was making
lots of stupidly bogus assignments, which I found in the BAMs and
figured out. Thus the SNP-style designation.
I estimate that about 43000 men bear CLD56, based on the statistics of
our DNA project.
As to Somerled himself, we have only one man purportedly descendind from
his father, and there is no marker for him. We now do have
several descendants from two of his sons, and a one from a purported
third son. Thus the exactitude is a bit fuzzy and that one man is right,
will remain so forever within BigY ... more complete resu7lts aligned to
T2T might fix that of course.
All this has taken 20 years ... we had a head start, back to 2003,
because Brian Sykes tested I seem to remember 6 men with just 10 STRs.
In 2004 about 30 tests were run with 14 markers by an academic in
Belgium on our behalf.
Doug
I have been trying to better understand the projected date ranges in
studies that I am a participant. My understanding is that mutations are random, but there may be some genetic predisposition to mutations.
Whoever does the interpreting estimates an average mutation rate of
genes reflected by particular markers that is then compared with the
marker variances to determine an estimated date range for time to most
common paternal ancestor. When you go that far back, the ranges seem to
be substantial as in hundreds of years. I find personally the
projections on more recent relationships past maybe 3rd cousins where we
have good paper trials on both sides are often off, which one would
expect if we were averaging and then estimating from a random mutation
rate.
On 1/2/2025 10:35 AM, Denis Beauregard wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 17:48:18 +0000, miked <mike@library.net> wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:33:53 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
[..]
My own closer DNA cousins before my ancestor left France in 1665
are a group of Armenians, likely descending either some Crusader
or from a companion of Marco Polo or another explorer of that era.
The common ancestor is estimated to be living between 800 and
1300.
how did find the dna of these long dead medieval people?
I don't. These tests are typically made from 2 living persons and
confirmed by coherent results and documented lineages for the
genealogical time, and by identified mutations in the Y chromosome
(the average is 1 mutation, called SNP, per 82 years for the test
named Big Y 700).
So in my personal case, my ancestor is born in France in 1642.
He has 4 known sons. I have many lineages from 3 sons with coherent
results (the actual result may defined on the lab or on the test).
I may have found one from the 4th son (but a new tester is needed).
Y DNA can go farther back than that. Mine goes all rge way back to
Somerled, d. about 1164. For him we have only two sons with both living descendants and paper trails. For his 3rd great grandson John, lord of
the Isles, we have 4 sons and about 16 men with both BigYs and paper
trails. Everything agrees with the concurrent or almost concurrent
paper. There are now a few immigrant ancestors to the USA (and New
Zealand) that we have good DNA proof for. For me we have lesser proof,
by DNA, through autosomal DNA matches back to Antrim. But there is no
living male line back through the Earl of Antrim ... the current one is
a Kerr, though a "special creation" of a female line.
I still believe that Lord John is the oldest absolutely proven DNA line
in the world.
Doug McDonald
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