From Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval

Dugdales notes have this rather odd entry described as Escheats 21 Ed.
3, (1347). Yorks Arch & Topographical Journal VII p267

The Jurors say that John de Breose held the day that he died in manner
under written the mannors of Holme & Sourby with the appurtenances in Carteworth Wolfdale, Scammonden. . . & other parts in the county of
Yorke viz. John de Warren late Earle of Surrey deceased who held the
foresaid mannors & hamlets for the terme of his life the remainder to
the Lord the King granted the foresaid mannors & hamlets to the foresaid
John Breose for the tearme of the life of the said Earle. The foresaid
Lord the King granted the foresaid mannorss & hamlets to the foresaid
John Breose & his heires after the death of the said Earle. John de
Breose died seised of the said prCOmises & the foresaid Earle entred into
the foresaid mannors

The date suggests this to have been part of an IPM of de Warenne and the
John de Breose being the one who died in 1332, The "mannors" are in
fact graveships within the manor Wakefield. What's odd is that there
are no indications during what might be the relevant period of the
graveships being anything other than the regular parts of the manor.

In 1329 Thomas servant of John de Breuse was pursuing various people for trespass (cutting hedges) but in Thornes which is much closer to the
town of Wakefield itself (YAS Record series V WMR 1322-1331), pp141 &
144 and various people are distrained to answer John de Breous for
trespass (p155). Although not place name is given in the last the names
the inclusion of John le Goldsmith suggests Wakefield rather then the
more distant graveships.

On the face of it the de Braose seem unlikely to have been connected
with Wakefield but their castle at Bramber was a neighbour of the
Warenne castle at Lewes.

Can anyone throw any light as to why and when the grant may have been made?

Regards

Ian



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From Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval

This John de Brewes (who died 1342 rather than 1332) was a knight
associated with John de Warenne throughout his career. It is not
unlikely that he was granted lands by Warenne to support him. He was a
son of Peter de Braose, (half)brother of the last William de Braose to
hold Bramber before it descended to John de Mowbray via his daughter
Aline. John de Brewes also held lands in Lincolnshire.


On 19/04/2024 21:32, Ian Goddard wrote:

Dugdales notes have this rather odd entry described as Escheats 21 Ed.
3, (1347). Yorks Arch & Topographical Journal VII p267

The Jurors say that John de Breose held the day that he died in manner
under written the mannors of Holme & Sourby with the appurtenances in Carteworth Wolfdale, Scammonden. . . & other parts in the county of
Yorke viz. John de Warren late Earle of Surrey deceased who held the foresaid mannors & hamlets for the terme of his life the remainder to
the Lord the King granted the foresaid mannors & hamlets to the foresaid John Breose for the tearme of the life of the said Earle.-a The foresaid Lord the King granted the foresaid mannorss & hamlets to the foresaid
John Breose & his heires after the death of the said Earle.-a John de
Breose died seised of the said prCOmises & the foresaid Earle entred into the foresaid mannors

The date suggests this to have been part of an IPM of de Warenne and the John de Breose being the one who died in 1332,-a The "mannors" are in
fact graveships within the manor Wakefield.-a What's odd is that there
are no indications during what might be the relevant period of the graveships being anything other than the regular parts of the manor.

In 1329 Thomas servant of John de Breuse was pursuing various people for trespass (cutting hedges) but in Thornes which is much closer to the
town of Wakefield itself-a (YAS Record series V WMR 1322-1331), pp141 &
144 and various people are distrained to answer John de Breous for
trespass (p155).-a Although not place name is given in the last the names the inclusion of John le Goldsmith suggests Wakefield rather then the
more distant graveships.

On the face of it the de Braose seem unlikely to have been connected
with Wakefield but their castle at Bramber was a neighbour of the
Warenne castle at Lewes.

Can anyone throw any light as to why and when the grant may have been made?

Regards

Ian

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From Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval

Doug Thompson wrote:

This John de Brewes (who died 1342 rather than 1332) was-a a knight associated with John de Warenne throughout his career. It is not
unlikely that he was granted lands by Warenne to support him. He was a
son of Peter de Braose, (half)brother of the last William de Braose to
hold Bramber before it descended to John de Mowbray via his daughter
Aline. John de Brewes also held lands in Lincolnshire.

Thanks, Doug

That explains a lot. By that time the disposition of lands in the manor
of Wakefield was long established. It would have been difficult to take create a sub-manor from a township as had been done earlier, e.g. Emley.
There don't seem to be any other clues in the MRs as to what the exact nature of his holding were in Holme & Sowerby although it may be
rewarding to dig further into Thornes.

Ian

On 19/04/2024 21:32, Ian Goddard wrote:

Dugdales notes have this rather odd entry described as Escheats 21 Ed.
3, (1347). Yorks Arch & Topographical Journal VII p267

The Jurors say that John de Breose held the day that he died in manner
under written the mannors of Holme & Sourby with the appurtenances in
Carteworth Wolfdale, Scammonden. . . & other parts in the county of
Yorke viz. John de Warren late Earle of Surrey deceased who held the
foresaid mannors & hamlets for the terme of his life the remainder to
the Lord the King granted the foresaid mannors & hamlets to the
foresaid John Breose for the tearme of the life of the said Earle.
The foresaid Lord the King granted the foresaid mannorss & hamlets to
the foresaid John Breose & his heires after the death of the said
Earle.-a John de Breose died seised of the said prCOmises & the foresaid
Earle entred into the foresaid mannors

The date suggests this to have been part of an IPM of de Warenne and
the John de Breose being the one who died in 1332,-a The "mannors" are
in fact graveships within the manor Wakefield.-a What's odd is that
there are no indications during what might be the relevant period of
the graveships being anything other than the regular parts of the manor.

In 1329 Thomas servant of John de Breuse was pursuing various people
for trespass (cutting hedges) but in Thornes which is much closer to
the town of Wakefield itself-a (YAS Record series V WMR 1322-1331),
pp141 & 144 and various people are distrained to answer John de Breous
for trespass (p155).-a Although not place name is given in the last the
names the inclusion of John le Goldsmith suggests Wakefield rather
then the more distant graveships.

On the face of it the de Braose seem unlikely to have been connected
with Wakefield but their castle at Bramber was a neighbour of the
Warenne castle at Lewes.

Can anyone throw any light as to why and when the grant may have been
made?

Regards

Ian

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From Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval

Ian,

I have found in my files 2 pieces which may explain things better.

1340
May 18 Tower of London
Whereas the king's kinsman, John de Warenna, earl of Surrey, by letters
patent which the king has inspected granted without licence to John de
Breouse the manors of Holm and Sourby with the hamlets of Carteworth, Wolfdale, Skaunnenden and Werlully, co. York, said to be held in chief,
which if the earl dies without heir of the body will revert to the king,
to hold for the life of the grantor with the parks, stews, warrens,
chaces, knight's fees, liberties and other things pertaining to the
manors and hamlets; the king at the earl's request has pardoned the
trepass and granted licence for the said John to retain the same. He
has also, in consideration of the service of the said John to himself
and the earl, granted as a further grace that, if the earl shall die
without heir of his body, he shall retain the premises in fee. By. K.
CP 1338-1340:519

1348
Writ, 3 December, 22 Edward 111
York. Inq. taken at York on Saturday after St. Hilary, 22 Edward 111.
Holm and Sourby. The manors, together with the hamlets of Carteworth, Wolfdale, Skamanden and Warlulley, including the pasture in Sourbyshire
and in the park of Hayrkeden, held as follows:- John de Warrena, late
earl of Surrey, deceased, who held the premises for life with reversion
to the king, gave them by charter to the said John de Brousa, and the
king confirmed the gift, and granted also the reversion to the said John
de Brousa and his heirs forever. The said John was accordingly seised of
the premises for two years before his death, and after his death the
said earl entered and received the issues until his death; by what
warrant, the jurors know not. After the said earl's death the king
granted the premises, with other lands late the earl's, to Edmund de
Langeley, his son, who now holds them. They are held of the king in
chief as parcel of the castle and manor of Sandale and of Wakefeld,
which castle, manor and town, with their members, together with the
castle and manor of Conyngesburgh and its members, are held of the king
in chief as of the crown by service of two knight's fees.
He held no other lands in the county.
He died on 17 April, 16 Edward 111. John de Brousa, his son aged 19
years on Sunday before the Annunciation last is his heir.
CIPM 9:89

Doug



On 20/04/2024 09:46, Ian Goddard wrote:

Doug Thompson wrote:

This John de Brewes (who died 1342 rather than 1332) was-a a knight
associated with John de Warenne throughout his career. It is not
unlikely that he was granted lands by Warenne to support him. He was a
son of Peter de Braose, (half)brother of the last William de Braose to
hold Bramber before it descended to John de Mowbray via his daughter
Aline. John de Brewes also held lands in Lincolnshire.

Thanks, Doug

That explains a lot.-a By that time the disposition of lands in the manor
of Wakefield was long established.-a It would have been difficult to take create a sub-manor from a township as had been done earlier, e.g. Emley.
-aThere don't seem to be any other clues in the MRs as to what the exact nature of his holding were in Holme & Sowerby although it may be
rewarding to dig further into Thornes.

Ian

On 19/04/2024 21:32, Ian Goddard wrote:

Dugdales notes have this rather odd entry described as Escheats 21
Ed. 3, (1347). Yorks Arch & Topographical Journal VII p267

The Jurors say that John de Breose held the day that he died in
manner under written the mannors of Holme & Sourby with the
appurtenances in Carteworth Wolfdale, Scammonden. . . & other parts
in the county of Yorke viz. John de Warren late Earle of Surrey
deceased who held the foresaid mannors & hamlets for the terme of his
life the remainder to the Lord the King granted the foresaid mannors
& hamlets to the foresaid John Breose for the tearme of the life of
the said Earle. The foresaid Lord the King granted the foresaid
mannorss & hamlets to the foresaid John Breose & his heires after the
death of the said Earle.-a John de Breose died seised of the said
prCOmises & the foresaid Earle entred into the foresaid mannors

The date suggests this to have been part of an IPM of de Warenne and
the John de Breose being the one who died in 1332,-a The "mannors" are
in fact graveships within the manor Wakefield.-a What's odd is that
there are no indications during what might be the relevant period of
the graveships being anything other than the regular parts of the manor. >>>
In 1329 Thomas servant of John de Breuse was pursuing various people
for trespass (cutting hedges) but in Thornes which is much closer to
the town of Wakefield itself-a (YAS Record series V WMR 1322-1331),
pp141 & 144 and various people are distrained to answer John de
Breous for trespass (p155).-a Although not place name is given in the
last the names the inclusion of John le Goldsmith suggests Wakefield
rather then the more distant graveships.

On the face of it the de Braose seem unlikely to have been connected
with Wakefield but their castle at Bramber was a neighbour of the
Warenne castle at Lewes.

Can anyone throw any light as to why and when the grant may have been
made?

Regards

Ian

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From Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval

Doug Thompson wrote:

1340
May 18 Tower of London
Whereas the king's kinsman, John de Warenna, earl of Surrey, by letters patent which the king has inspected granted without licence to John de Breouse the manors of Holm and Sourby with the hamlets of Carteworth, Wolfdale, Skaunnenden and Werlully, co. York, said to be held in chief, which if the earl dies without heir of the body will revert to the king,
to hold for the life of the grantor with the parks, stews, warrens,
chaces, knight's fees, liberties and other things pertaining to the
manors and hamlets; the king at the earl's request has pardoned the
trepass and granted licence for-a the said John to retain the same. He
has also, in consideration of the service of the said John to himself
and the earl, granted as a further grace that, if the earl shall die
without heir of his body, he shall retain the premises in fee.-a By. K.
CP 1338-1340:519

1348
Writ, 3 December, 22 Edward 111
York. Inq. taken at York on Saturday after St. Hilary, 22 Edward 111.
Holm and Sourby. The manors, together with the hamlets of Carteworth, Wolfdale, Skamanden and Warlulley, including the pasture in Sourbyshire
and in the park of Hayrkeden, held as follows:- John de Warrena, late
earl of Surrey, deceased, who held the premises for life with reversion
to the king, gave them by charter to the said John de Brousa, and the
king confirmed the gift, and granted also the reversion to the said John
de Brousa and his heirs forever. The said John was accordingly seised of
the premises for two years before his death, and after his death the
said earl entered and received the issues until his death; by what
warrant, the jurors know not.-a After the said earl's death the king
granted the premises, with other lands late the earl's, to Edmund de Langeley, his son, who now holds them. They are held of the king in
chief as parcel of the castle and manor of Sandale and of Wakefeld,
which castle, manor and town, with their members, together with the
castle and manor of Conyngesburgh and its members, are held of the king
in chief as of the crown by service of two knight's fees.
He held no other lands in the county.
He died on 17 April, 16 Edward 111. John de Brousa, his son aged 19
years on Sunday before the Annunciation last is his heir.
CIPM 9:89

Doug

This is fascinating. Holme, Sourby, Scammonden* and Warley* last appear
in the 1336-40 volume (YAS Wakefield Court Rolls Series vol XII) in May
1340 although the rolls included in the volume continue to September.
Nobody seems to have noticed this. Hayrkeden is presumably Erringden
but there were no cases from there in the whole volume.

The next published rolls start in 1348 (unless there are more recent publications which I haven't received).

* Treated as graveships in the court rolls although these documents are treating them in much the same way as Cartworth and Wooldale which in
fact are, along with 5 others not named here, townships within Holme.

Ian
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