William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice LeesrCO book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of William
and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat answer is
that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in the charter,
this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice LeesrCO
book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It is
an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
William and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
here (pp 692-693 no. 23): https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem meum").
Peter Stewart
On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I thought
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice LeesrCO >>> book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth century. It
is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of Sele Priory
concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated 1181 in the
charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the brother of
William and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether the
William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II) died
just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
meum").
Peter Stewart
I knew-a all these St Florent documents well.
On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:
On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has not been
noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
LeesrCO book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated
1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
brother of William and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
the William in question is William(II) or William (III). William(II)
died just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat
answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a brother
for William (III). So, without knowing which William is concerned in
the charter, this is evidence for the existence of this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html
William II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca 1140
here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii Willelmi
... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ... ad hoc
autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum fratrem
meum").
Peter Stewart
thought I knew-a all these St Florent documents well.
The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade or
so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Am|-lie Rigollet in
*Mobilit|-s du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe si|?cle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the charter dated in
that year, another donation at Annington, that was confirmed by William
II. Since Berta's parents were not married until 1121, a concession by
her younger son Philip is more likely to have been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87 (holding
from the king at Stanford)
12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here: https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
Peter Stewart
On 21/04/2024 01:49, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has notWilliam II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same name,
been noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
LeesrCO book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of
Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is dated >>>>> 1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains Philip, the
brother of William and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether
the William in question is William(II) or William (III).
William(II) died just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the neat >>>>> answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a
brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is
concerned in the charter, this is evidence for the existence of
this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html >>>>
both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of ca
1140 here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii
Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus ...
ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam, Philippum
fratrem meum").
Peter Stewart
thought I knew-a all these St Florent documents well.
The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade
or so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs
in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of
Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Am|-lie Rigollet
in *Mobilit|-s du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe
si|?cle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the
charter dated in that year, another donation at Annington, that was
confirmed by William II. Since Berta's parents were not married until
1121, a concession by her younger son Philip is more likely to have
been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87
(holding from the king at Stanford)
12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of
Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London, 2007),
vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and
here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
Peter Stewart
references you give below are to the brother of William II not his son.
Is there any way to know this?
On 22-Apr-24 12:12 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:
On 21/04/2024 01:49, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 7:28 PM, Doug Thompson wrote:Agreed about the uncertain dating by Marchegay, but I thought the
On 20/04/2024 01:18, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 20-Apr-24 3:59 AM, Doug Thompson wrote:Thanks Peter. I don't know how I have missed that one before! I
William (II) de Braose had a son Philip which I believe has notWilliam II had a recorded son Philip and a brother of the same
been noted before.
I discovered this when examining a charter recently in Beatrice
LeesrCO book, Records of the Templars in England in the twelfth
century. It is an agreement between the Templars and the monks of >>>>>> Sele Priory concerning the tithes of William de Braose. It is
dated 1181 in the charter itself. The witness list contains
Philip, the brother of William and also WilliamrCOs son Philip.
However, 1181 is a problematic date since it is uncertain whether >>>>>> the William in question is William(II) or William (III).
William(II) died just around this time.
Now William (II) had a brother Philip but no recorded son, while
William (III) had a son Philip but no recorded brother. So the
neat answer is that a son Philip for William (II) would also be a >>>>>> brother for William (III). So, without knowing which William is
concerned in the charter, this is evidence for the existence of
this son!
See my website at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/william2.html >>>>>
name, both of whom occur along with his wife Berta in his letter of >>>>> ca 1140 here (pp 692-693 no. 23):
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k2000762/f696.item ("ego
Willelmus dominus de Braiosa, filius Philippi, avi mei filii
Willelmi ... Hanc confirmationem concessit Philippus filius meus
... ad hoc autem testes idoneos adhibeo: Bertam conjugem meam,
Philippum fratrem meum").
Peter Stewart
thought I knew-a all these St Florent documents well.
The dating to ca 1140 by Marchegay is probably too early by a decade
or so - the prior of Sele at the time is named as Daniel, who occurs
in a charter dated 1153 and was dead by 1169 according to *Heads of
Religious Houses*, second edition (2001) vol 1 p. 108. Am|-lie
Rigollet in *Mobilit|-s du lignage anglo-normand de Briouze (mi-XIe
si|?cle-1326)* (2021) placed the letter ca 1153 on the basis of the
charter dated in that year, another donation at Annington, that was
confirmed by William II. Since Berta's parents were not married until
1121, a concession by her younger son Philip is more likely to have
been made ca 1153 that ca 1140.
Philip occurs in other records cited by Rigollet:
Michaelmas 1193 - Pipe Roll, ed Doris Stenton (1927) pp. 86-87
(holding from the king at Stanford)
12 September 1220 - his widow Eve and her second husband William of
Naas made a fine of 100 marks for Philip's manor of Grene in Ireland,
*Calendar of the Fine Rolls of the reign of Henry III* (London,
2007), vol. 1, p. 164, no. 263, also here:
https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_012.html and
here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924091754428/page/147/mode/1up.
Peter Stewart
references you give below are to the brother of William II not his
son. Is there any way to know this?
William II's brother Philip occurs as a witness along with Berta in William's confirmation of their grandfather's donations dated after 1110
by Marchegay in *Chartes normandes de l'abbaye de Saint-Florent*, p. 689
no. 20b - however, this is again too early unless he meant long after. Rigollet placed it ca 1130, also too early. Seifrid I was bishop of Chichester at the time, placing it between 1125 and 1145. Robert was
prior of Sele, placing it within the range of his uncertainly datable occurrences from 1126/39 to 1135/53. But Berta's parents, as mentioned before, were married in 1121 so she could not have become William's wife until ca 1135 at the earliest.
Sine the brother was active apparently as William II's heir presumptive after his marriage to Berta but evidently before they had a son, i.e. by around 1140-45 when this confirmation was probably given, this Philip's
own birth cannot have been far from 1130, making it unlikely that his remarried widow would be obtaining seisin of her dower in his Irish
estate as late as September 1220. William II died in 1192/93 according
to Ralph Turner in ODNB - it seems to me far more plausible that his son lived until ca 28 years after him leaving a marriageable widow than that
his brother did.
Peter Stewart
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