• Double Relativity Theory

    From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Tue Mar 31 07:42:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity



    Does it "violate relativity"? No, it's just another way
    of looking at it. Relativity is just "think of the theory
    where motion is always relative, not absolute", about that
    the "coordinate-free" settings are because they all have
    coordinate settings. Does it result "infinite energy"
    for matter to be Galilean linearly? No, it doesn't,
    and light is just constantly flowing away. Does it make
    an account matching why the solar system holds together
    since the force of gravity must always point at the
    source where it really is not the image that's delayed
    by light speed? Yes, it does.

    There are any number of ways to "confirm relativity",
    since by itself it's just a formalism, and, for example,
    "optical illusions" "confirm relativity". It's loose language
    to say that the scientific theory is ever confirmed, only
    that it's not falsified in the face of alternatives.







    The usual "Relativity Theory" is pretty much "motion, ...,
    is relative", then there's attached "and there's an L-principle
    of the constancy of the speed of light and otherwise it's
    classically mechanical in the limit", that's what it says,
    or as Einstein puts it, when he asks, "what's the use of
    just such a negative stipulation that motion isn't absolute?",
    that then he answers as making a great account for coordinates
    and these kinds of things.

    Then, most people don't necessarily think that if motion, ...,
    is relative, then for that: "space, ..., is relative".
    I.e., in otherwise a theory of absolutes, or the cosmological
    principle that the laws of the universe its physics are
    the same everywhere, then fits the idea that besides "frames"
    the usual notion of local settings, local coordinate settings
    that the usual Relativity Theory has, "frames" like "frames of
    a motion picture", which was new in those days, those representing
    instantaneous snapshots of things providing a perception of motion,
    then there's that "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", making for
    that it's a sort of, "Double-Relativity Theory", then that this
    goes well for usual accounts of after atomic and nuclear theory
    that "matter is mostly space".



    So, if "Relativity Theory" makes accounts of Lorentzians that
    then make all "predictions" of Relativity Theory, then what
    would be the next "Double Relativity Theory" its usual formalisms
    or expressions then about the relevant implicits and formulations
    that make the algebras for the formalisms?

    Various ideas include, for example, just using the third differential
    instead of the second differentials in the Laplacian cum Lorentzian,
    another to square it terms, either way making simple accounts of
    either making the initial terms of Maclaurin/Taylor series or
    making another account of quadrature for the triangle inequality.


    If "Relativity Theory" is so great for what it is, "no absolute,
    ..., motion", now "Double Relativity Theory" with "no absolute, ...,
    motion, and no absolute, ..., space", is greater.



    I'm usually against reductionism as a "merely partial" or
    "half-account", or "only good to first order" as usual
    accounts of the formalism after the Laplacian the sum of
    second partial derivatives, instead for a more singular and
    integral analysis, since overall there's for a continuum
    mechanics and merely-partial accounts simply eventually fail.

    Then, about the Euclidean and otherwise a system of the world,
    then about this "Double Relativity Theory" is again for what
    are notions of "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", beyond the
    usual notion of "frames". Then, it's perhaps so that there
    would be a better word than "spaces" for the the ideas of
    "spacities", since they're analytical settings' just like
    "frames" are, with regards to instances in time or as for
    motion meters/second, and about instances in space or about
    meters/meters. Then, "frame-spaces" and "space-frames" for
    "Rahme-Raumen" and "Raume-Rahmen" will do, adding enough
    words to the language of the theory to encompass the idea
    that real space-contraction and making for space-contraction-linear
    and space-contraction-rotational simply have objects their
    descriptions their representations in the theory.

    So, being a realist and an anti-reductionist, then these
    sorts of terms are cognitively consonant.


    Naturally no experiment that doesn't disconfirm the old
    "Relativity Theory" would disconfirm this "Double Relativity
    Theory" either, though one may aver that adding an aether
    would make "absolute space", that though variously being
    considered by physicists like Einstein as being "in the theory".



    Now all the arguments for/against Relativity Theory have
    a new playground, Double Relativity Theory.

    One can even put them off against each other.



    After frame-spaces and space-frames is a usual idea
    then that there are wave-spirals and spiral-waves,
    since waves are just a sort of cross-section, then
    sort of like how waves follow spirals and frames
    follow spaces.



    Faraday Rotation and FitzGerald et alia's original
    accounts of space-contraction come to mind as prior
    work in the field.

    That's why here's there an account of these various
    "F-Lorentzians" about the fields and forces, where
    the Lorentzian is sort of a reductionism since it's
    just taking the Laplacian which is a sum of second
    partial differences then according to a sign convention
    plus/minus a time dimension's second partial, then
    equating that to a metric's second partial. So,
    it's at least four or five reductionisms with the
    corresponding losses of analyticity beyond first
    order, the Lorentzian.

    Fizeau
    Faraday
    Fatio
    FitzGerald
    Finlay-Freundlich
    Freundlich
    Feynman
    Fresnel
    ...


    Forces and fields their usual milieux, ....

    ... Each having their own setups making
    "models of Relativity Theory".

    Then a usual idea is that there's only
    one of those.

    A brief mnemonic.




    Here's a brief patter about "double relativity" theory.

    "Reading Foundations: double relativity":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0RQ-62zKc
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Tue Mar 31 09:09:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/31/2026 07:42 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:


    Does it "violate relativity"? No, it's just another way
    of looking at it. Relativity is just "think of the theory
    where motion is always relative, not absolute", about that
    the "coordinate-free" settings are because they all have
    coordinate settings. Does it result "infinite energy"
    for matter to be Galilean linearly? No, it doesn't,
    and light is just constantly flowing away. Does it make
    an account matching why the solar system holds together
    since the force of gravity must always point at the
    source where it really is not the image that's delayed
    by light speed? Yes, it does.

    There are any number of ways to "confirm relativity",
    since by itself it's just a formalism, and, for example,
    "optical illusions" "confirm relativity". It's loose language
    to say that the scientific theory is ever confirmed, only
    that it's not falsified in the face of alternatives.







    The usual "Relativity Theory" is pretty much "motion, ...,
    is relative", then there's attached "and there's an L-principle
    of the constancy of the speed of light and otherwise it's
    classically mechanical in the limit", that's what it says,
    or as Einstein puts it, when he asks, "what's the use of
    just such a negative stipulation that motion isn't absolute?",
    that then he answers as making a great account for coordinates
    and these kinds of things.

    Then, most people don't necessarily think that if motion, ...,
    is relative, then for that: "space, ..., is relative".
    I.e., in otherwise a theory of absolutes, or the cosmological
    principle that the laws of the universe its physics are
    the same everywhere, then fits the idea that besides "frames"
    the usual notion of local settings, local coordinate settings
    that the usual Relativity Theory has, "frames" like "frames of
    a motion picture", which was new in those days, those representing
    instantaneous snapshots of things providing a perception of motion,
    then there's that "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", making for
    that it's a sort of, "Double-Relativity Theory", then that this
    goes well for usual accounts of after atomic and nuclear theory
    that "matter is mostly space".



    So, if "Relativity Theory" makes accounts of Lorentzians that
    then make all "predictions" of Relativity Theory, then what
    would be the next "Double Relativity Theory" its usual formalisms
    or expressions then about the relevant implicits and formulations
    that make the algebras for the formalisms?

    Various ideas include, for example, just using the third differential
    instead of the second differentials in the Laplacian cum Lorentzian,
    another to square it terms, either way making simple accounts of
    either making the initial terms of Maclaurin/Taylor series or
    making another account of quadrature for the triangle inequality.


    If "Relativity Theory" is so great for what it is, "no absolute,
    ..., motion", now "Double Relativity Theory" with "no absolute, ...,
    motion, and no absolute, ..., space", is greater.



    I'm usually against reductionism as a "merely partial" or
    "half-account", or "only good to first order" as usual
    accounts of the formalism after the Laplacian the sum of
    second partial derivatives, instead for a more singular and
    integral analysis, since overall there's for a continuum
    mechanics and merely-partial accounts simply eventually fail.

    Then, about the Euclidean and otherwise a system of the world,
    then about this "Double Relativity Theory" is again for what
    are notions of "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", beyond the
    usual notion of "frames". Then, it's perhaps so that there
    would be a better word than "spaces" for the the ideas of
    "spacities", since they're analytical settings' just like
    "frames" are, with regards to instances in time or as for
    motion meters/second, and about instances in space or about
    meters/meters. Then, "frame-spaces" and "space-frames" for
    "Rahme-Raumen" and "Raume-Rahmen" will do, adding enough
    words to the language of the theory to encompass the idea
    that real space-contraction and making for space-contraction-linear
    and space-contraction-rotational simply have objects their
    descriptions their representations in the theory.

    So, being a realist and an anti-reductionist, then these
    sorts of terms are cognitively consonant.


    Naturally no experiment that doesn't disconfirm the old
    "Relativity Theory" would disconfirm this "Double Relativity
    Theory" either, though one may aver that adding an aether
    would make "absolute space", that though variously being
    considered by physicists like Einstein as being "in the theory".



    Now all the arguments for/against Relativity Theory have
    a new playground, Double Relativity Theory.

    One can even put them off against each other.



    After frame-spaces and space-frames is a usual idea
    then that there are wave-spirals and spiral-waves,
    since waves are just a sort of cross-section, then
    sort of like how waves follow spirals and frames
    follow spaces.



    Faraday Rotation and FitzGerald et alia's original
    accounts of space-contraction come to mind as prior
    work in the field.

    That's why here's there an account of these various
    "F-Lorentzians" about the fields and forces, where
    the Lorentzian is sort of a reductionism since it's
    just taking the Laplacian which is a sum of second
    partial differences then according to a sign convention
    plus/minus a time dimension's second partial, then
    equating that to a metric's second partial. So,
    it's at least four or five reductionisms with the
    corresponding losses of analyticity beyond first
    order, the Lorentzian.

    Fizeau
    Faraday
    Fatio
    FitzGerald
    Finlay-Freundlich
    Freundlich
    Feynman
    Fresnel
    ...


    Forces and fields their usual milieux, ....

    ... Each having their own setups making
    "models of Relativity Theory".

    Then a usual idea is that there's only
    one of those.

    A brief mnemonic.




    Here's a brief patter about "double relativity" theory.

    "Reading Foundations: double relativity":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0RQ-62zKc


    I looked around a bit and there's already an account
    of a "doubly relativity theory", though from what I
    looked at it it's more of a "doubly-restricted relativity
    theory" that simply captures usual accounts of a restriction
    to restricted (a.k.a. special) relativity to make things
    even simpler for SR-ians, "DRRT".

    Instead here this is a sort of "double-objective relativity theory",
    "DORT", I was thinking to ascribe it as like "double-amplified
    relativity theory", "DART", yet instead that's a bit too close
    to "A" for "absolute" as "A" for "amplified", where of course
    the entire point of relativity (... of motion) theory is that
    otherwise it's absolute, "DORT".

    So, this double relativity theory has a very simple statement,
    with regards to the usual idea of relativity of motion
    (involving distance and time) about the relativity of space
    (involving distance and length), then any numbers of ways
    of looking at that with regards to the latitude of forms
    and other examples.


    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Wed Apr 1 10:30:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/31/2026 09:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/31/2026 07:42 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:


    Does it "violate relativity"? No, it's just another way
    of looking at it. Relativity is just "think of the theory
    where motion is always relative, not absolute", about that
    the "coordinate-free" settings are because they all have
    coordinate settings. Does it result "infinite energy"
    for matter to be Galilean linearly? No, it doesn't,
    and light is just constantly flowing away. Does it make
    an account matching why the solar system holds together
    since the force of gravity must always point at the
    source where it really is not the image that's delayed
    by light speed? Yes, it does.

    There are any number of ways to "confirm relativity",
    since by itself it's just a formalism, and, for example,
    "optical illusions" "confirm relativity". It's loose language
    to say that the scientific theory is ever confirmed, only
    that it's not falsified in the face of alternatives.







    The usual "Relativity Theory" is pretty much "motion, ...,
    is relative", then there's attached "and there's an L-principle
    of the constancy of the speed of light and otherwise it's
    classically mechanical in the limit", that's what it says,
    or as Einstein puts it, when he asks, "what's the use of
    just such a negative stipulation that motion isn't absolute?",
    that then he answers as making a great account for coordinates
    and these kinds of things.

    Then, most people don't necessarily think that if motion, ...,
    is relative, then for that: "space, ..., is relative".
    I.e., in otherwise a theory of absolutes, or the cosmological
    principle that the laws of the universe its physics are
    the same everywhere, then fits the idea that besides "frames"
    the usual notion of local settings, local coordinate settings
    that the usual Relativity Theory has, "frames" like "frames of
    a motion picture", which was new in those days, those representing
    instantaneous snapshots of things providing a perception of motion,
    then there's that "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", making for
    that it's a sort of, "Double-Relativity Theory", then that this
    goes well for usual accounts of after atomic and nuclear theory
    that "matter is mostly space".



    So, if "Relativity Theory" makes accounts of Lorentzians that
    then make all "predictions" of Relativity Theory, then what
    would be the next "Double Relativity Theory" its usual formalisms
    or expressions then about the relevant implicits and formulations
    that make the algebras for the formalisms?

    Various ideas include, for example, just using the third differential
    instead of the second differentials in the Laplacian cum Lorentzian,
    another to square it terms, either way making simple accounts of
    either making the initial terms of Maclaurin/Taylor series or
    making another account of quadrature for the triangle inequality.


    If "Relativity Theory" is so great for what it is, "no absolute,
    ..., motion", now "Double Relativity Theory" with "no absolute, ...,
    motion, and no absolute, ..., space", is greater.



    I'm usually against reductionism as a "merely partial" or
    "half-account", or "only good to first order" as usual
    accounts of the formalism after the Laplacian the sum of
    second partial derivatives, instead for a more singular and
    integral analysis, since overall there's for a continuum
    mechanics and merely-partial accounts simply eventually fail.

    Then, about the Euclidean and otherwise a system of the world,
    then about this "Double Relativity Theory" is again for what
    are notions of "frame-spaces" and "space-frames", beyond the
    usual notion of "frames". Then, it's perhaps so that there
    would be a better word than "spaces" for the the ideas of
    "spacities", since they're analytical settings' just like
    "frames" are, with regards to instances in time or as for
    motion meters/second, and about instances in space or about
    meters/meters. Then, "frame-spaces" and "space-frames" for
    "Rahme-Raumen" and "Raume-Rahmen" will do, adding enough
    words to the language of the theory to encompass the idea
    that real space-contraction and making for space-contraction-linear
    and space-contraction-rotational simply have objects their
    descriptions their representations in the theory.

    So, being a realist and an anti-reductionist, then these
    sorts of terms are cognitively consonant.


    Naturally no experiment that doesn't disconfirm the old
    "Relativity Theory" would disconfirm this "Double Relativity
    Theory" either, though one may aver that adding an aether
    would make "absolute space", that though variously being
    considered by physicists like Einstein as being "in the theory".



    Now all the arguments for/against Relativity Theory have
    a new playground, Double Relativity Theory.

    One can even put them off against each other.



    After frame-spaces and space-frames is a usual idea
    then that there are wave-spirals and spiral-waves,
    since waves are just a sort of cross-section, then
    sort of like how waves follow spirals and frames
    follow spaces.



    Faraday Rotation and FitzGerald et alia's original
    accounts of space-contraction come to mind as prior
    work in the field.

    That's why here's there an account of these various
    "F-Lorentzians" about the fields and forces, where
    the Lorentzian is sort of a reductionism since it's
    just taking the Laplacian which is a sum of second
    partial differences then according to a sign convention
    plus/minus a time dimension's second partial, then
    equating that to a metric's second partial. So,
    it's at least four or five reductionisms with the
    corresponding losses of analyticity beyond first
    order, the Lorentzian.

    Fizeau
    Faraday
    Fatio
    FitzGerald
    Finlay-Freundlich
    Freundlich
    Feynman
    Fresnel
    ...


    Forces and fields their usual milieux, ....

    ... Each having their own setups making
    "models of Relativity Theory".

    Then a usual idea is that there's only
    one of those.

    A brief mnemonic.




    Here's a brief patter about "double relativity" theory.

    "Reading Foundations: double relativity":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0RQ-62zKc


    I looked around a bit and there's already an account
    of a "doubly relativity theory", though from what I
    looked at it it's more of a "doubly-restricted relativity
    theory" that simply captures usual accounts of a restriction
    to restricted (a.k.a. special) relativity to make things
    even simpler for SR-ians, "DRRT".

    Instead here this is a sort of "double-objective relativity theory",
    "DORT", I was thinking to ascribe it as like "double-amplified
    relativity theory", "DART", yet instead that's a bit too close
    to "A" for "absolute" as "A" for "amplified", where of course
    the entire point of relativity (... of motion) theory is that
    otherwise it's absolute, "DORT".

    So, this double relativity theory has a very simple statement,
    with regards to the usual idea of relativity of motion
    (involving distance and time) about the relativity of space
    (involving distance and length), then any numbers of ways
    of looking at that with regards to the latitude of forms
    and other examples.



    The idea for the theory "Relativity Theory" the accounts
    like this "Double Relativity Theory", or Double-Objective
    Relativity Theory, this automatically equips and extends
    the formalism, so, it's automatically at least as good
    as relativity theory, or bad as the perspective may be,
    then here there's also accounts of Rest-Exchange-Momentum
    since Einstein's attack on Newton about the centrally symmetric,
    makes a natural setting in accounts of gauge.


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