• Re: The notion of a "well founded justification tree" will be fully elaborated --- Prolog Example

    From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 12:43:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/2026 12:33 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:18 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:35 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 09:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:06 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 08:49 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 10:15 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/14/2026 05:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/13/2026 11:34 PM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote:
    On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing
    foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, or at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
    some finite time?

    I have to carefully study at least a dozen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> papers
    that may average 15 pages each. The basic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion
    of a "well founded justification tree" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
    means the Proof Theoretic notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduction to
    a Canonical proof.


    % This sentence is not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
    have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
    positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
    to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
    yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminates undecidability is a key element of my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system.
    Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification tree in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peano
    arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent
    all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you need an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a function of the Prolog language that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but
    uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use
    unify_with_occurs_check to
    determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.


    [00] reCx
    -a roe
    -a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x-a <roE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y-a <ro+roCroE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right)-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predicate
    unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether
    reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree ?

    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox >>>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I showed this in an existing well understood logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you >>>>>>>>>>>>> admit
    that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for >>>>>>>>>>>>> determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification
    tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary were >>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    An ad-hominem with an unproven premise disqualifies your comment. >>>>>>>>> Though an ad-hominem would disqualify it even if the premise were >>>>>>>>> proven.



    Wikipedia has a page about rhetorical fallacies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    These are parts of greater accounts of deductive inference
    to allay and prevent failures or sabotage of inductive inference, >>>>>>>> the "invincible" ignorance of inductive inference.

    This then makes for "two wrongs does not make a right".

    The usual account of "axioms" must be distinguished into
    at least two kinds: those that "expand comprehension",
    and those that "restrict comprehension". Basically one has
    that under expansion-of-comprehension, that alternatives
    or inverses exist, the other restriction-of-comprehension,
    that one or the other doesn't exist.

    "Inductive inference" isn't a lie, though, given a lie,
    it can't tell the truth.

    Then, Wikipedia also has a page about paradox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

    Then, paradoxes are usually enough given as results of
    logic, here about logical paradoxes that would find themselves >>>>>>>> in any theory, not about conflicting theories tangentially
    relevant each other, those just being a model of conflicting
    theories.

    So, about resolving the paradoxes of logic, like Russell
    and Burali-Forti and Cantor the paradoxes, these being
    references to modern accounts of logic, and about the
    Barber and the Heap and the Liar, these being references
    to classical expositions of logic, has that eventually any
    sort of restriction of comprehension in the universe of
    logical objects may thusly be found by expansion of comprehension >>>>>>>> in the universe of logical objects to be contradicted.

    So, it's known since antiquity that any sort of inductive
    account can be broken.

    Then, these "inductive impasses", must need make for
    "analytical bridges", where there's a very particular
    account of the primeval of the primary, about a universe
    of truth already, else any sort of account of axiomatics
    with restriction-of-comprehension is broken, instead of
    merely being an example of perspective and thus limited
    perspective.



    So, the account of Pete Olcott is just a crank's/troll's/bot's >>>>>>>> account, adding more restriction-of-comprehension above a
    perceived "foundation" that's a false floor, futile and
    doomed to fail, while yet simply enough making a claim
    that "if it's not wrong it's not wrong", then furthermore
    more or less saying "can't tell the difference between
    fallacy and paradox and truth".


    Here then we may have a modal temporal relevance logic
    and a theory where classical logic is modal and excludes
    the "material implication" since Chrysippus, and to re-name
    the usual account of 20'th century "classical logic" as instead >>>>>>>> along the lines of "Philo's Plotinus' Occam's Compte's Boole's >>>>>>>> Russell's Carnap's nominalist fictionalist logicist positivist >>>>>>>> Tarski's Goedel's quasi-modal account of logic and truth", that >>>>>>>> "Olcott's Goedel's" is yet another account of the quasi-modal. >>>>>>>>
    So, it's a crank's/troll's/bot's, sometimes easier just
    not to feed it. That said, it's a ready interpretation from
    something like modern accounts of inference that simply employ >>>>>>>> quasi-modal logic throughout and suggest thusly tabulating fact >>>>>>>> after fact as truth, and making the fallacy of calling that
    "monotonicity" and "entailment", which would be a lie, or as
    with regards to contradicting either the competency or veracity, >>>>>>>> of such accounts.


    So, PO's futile flailings are just a reflection on the current >>>>>>>> intellectual inertia about the quasi-modal logic, which taking >>>>>>>> a partial account of a partial account, wronged itself twice.



    "The notion of a well-founded justification tree
    will be fully elaborated."



    A finite back-chained inference from the expression
    to its axioms. As shown below in MTT the absence of
    cycles in the directed graph of the expressions
    evaluation sequence.

    % This sentence cannot be proven in F
    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.

    https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?
    predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence
    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle



    No, a deductive account about the possibilities and limits of
    inductive inference, helping explain any super-classical result,
    not just a rule-sniffing dog that follows its own brown nose.


    Goedel's incompleteness result is much simpler after a simple
    sort of account of quantification and the old "sputniks of
    quantification", that readily demonstrate something like
    Russell's paradox in account of ordinary arithmetic, for
    what somebody like Mirimanoff calls the "extra-ordinary",
    and Skolem constructs for fragments and extensions in the
    ordinary account of usual model theory about models of integers,
    then that Goedel's incompleteness basically gives limits of
    applicability of _claims_, here emphasized the _claims_ as
    being the proper word for accounts of inference over usual
    sorts of nominalist fictionalist logicist positivists' theories.

    Otherwise anybody can just come along and prove Russell wrong,
    prove Cantor wrong, and otherwise without a paradox-free reason
    its account thereof overall, has that "the notion of a well-founded
    justification tree", about e-minimality usually enough, to
    be _elaborated_, involves the _diligence_ and the _thoroughness_
    of a conscientious account of the extra-ordinary, the super-standard, >>>>> and the reasoning for _continuity_, and, _infinity_.


    This PO account used to be a bit more open-minded, now it's
    quite firmly retro-finitist, the hall-mark of the crank and troll.

    So, PO, if there is to be elaborated "well-founded justification
    trees",
    they live in a domain of discourse with other rulialities
    than
    well-foundedness/e-minimality/no-infinite-descending-epsilon-chains, >>>>> and
    somehow in reality and in logic they _do_ all get along.

    "E-laborated" means the diligent work was done,
    the work was worked out of it, not just "defined" done.


    You need an account that rejects quasi-modal logic or
    else anyone can easily give innocuous non-facts that
    define themselves "true".



    It is best understood within the essential framework
    of Prolog of back-chained inference from expressions
    using Rules to reach Facts.

    Prolog itself is far too weak to generalize this,
    none-the-less the infrastructure of expressions
    anchored in Facts and Rules does provide the complete
    essence.

    When we do it this way much of what has been misconstrued
    as "undecidability" becomes expressions that are rejected
    because they remain ungrounded in Facts.

    This is not merely the foundations of math and logic
    it is alternative foundations for math and logic that
    reject and replace the conventional views.


    I'd suggest not using the word "understood", with regards
    to reasoning about _closures_ and furthermore _completions_,
    with regards to things like "infinite limits" the completions.

    Facts and rules for rules-engines and the like are very old-hat,
    and contradictory rules

    Are excluded.

    in such accounts given un-true stated
    "facts", besides that "facts" in such accounts are stipulated,
    with regards to "verum" vis-a-vis "certum" and that it's only
    conscientiously a _scientific_ account, con-scient-ious.


    I don't speak Latin. These stipulated Facts are actually true
    that is all that need be known about them.

    The usual account of quasi-modal logic assumes that
    _time has stopped and there is no change_,
    the quasi-modal account itself is _not_ a temporal logic
    and thusly _not_ a modal logic. Furthermore, the quasi-modal
    logic's account of "monotonicity" fails, then that also
    the "entailment" is not an apropos term, and besides usual
    accounts of "garbage-in/garbage-out" is "crazy-in/crazy-out".


    All we need to know that that the Facts are true Facts about general
    knowledge.

    So, math and logic have _infinity_ and _infinitary reasoning_,
    they are _not_ going away.


    Not when restricted to the finite list of true (atomic) Facts of general
    knowledge.

    What you got there is, at best, a calculus of closed-categories,
    and if it's not extra-ordinary and super-standard, then it's not.


    When closed-categories is referring to the Frege compositional meaning
    and not some idiomatic term-of-the-art then yes closed-categories.

    About "un-decide-ability", there's furthermore an even stronger
    account of _independence_, the mathematical independence, since

    I don't need to yet into the nuances of of terms-of-the-art
    idiosyncrasies. Either an expression can be resolved to true
    or false or it is not a member of the body of knowledge
    expressed in language.

    there are multiple laws of large numbers, and that measure theory
    makes for quasi-invariant measure theory, since doubling/halving
    spaces/measures make for the re-Vitali-ization of measure theory
    about Vitali and Hausdorff and equi-decomposability, and for
    analysts about competing accounts of _convergence_ and _emergence_,
    that it is _real_ that some accounts of naive uniqueness instead
    are ascribed particular distinctness, about real completions in
    the objects of mathematics, beyond "not enough information".


    If expressions cannot reach Facts using Rules then they
    are out-of-scope. In this case the Rules are full natural
    language semantics specified syntactically.


    So, your usage of the words is unfortunately poisoned by the
    fact that quasi-modal logic makes you think "material implication"
    is a thing and that it does the thing, when it is not and does not.



    My whole system is constructed entirely on the
    basis of A is a necessary consequence of B.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.

    Disjunction introduction is totally rejected.
    Material implication may be entirely rejected.

    Your somewhat convoluted language seems to mostly miss the
    point of the barest essence of
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"


    That's a usual account of "true" in common sense,
    then though _all_ the mathematics and logic of
    the infinite and infinitary bring _all_ their
    matters of rigor resolving paradox for _any_
    sorts formal accounts.

    Or, "math is hard".

    "True on the basis of meaning is true" is a sort
    of coherent, pragmatist, correspondence definition
    of truth, while though here there's always that
    "is" is what "is" is.


    It took me 27 years to come up with this bridge between coherence/correspondence analytic/synthetic unifying
    them into on single exact and precise perspective.

    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"

    expressed in language
    expressed in language
    expressed in language

    Saying that a system is "whole" does not give that
    it's "complete". Furthermore, matters of the
    continuous and infinite must make for the "replete".



    every single detail of general knowledge
    "EXPRESSED IN LANGUAGE" can be encoded in my system
    thus as complete as complete can possibly be.

    Much of this must be algorithmically compressed
    to make it finite.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 10:51:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 04/15/2026 10:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 12:33 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:18 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:35 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 09:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:06 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 08:49 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 10:15 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/14/2026 05:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/13/2026 11:34 PM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing
    foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, or at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
    some finite time?

    I have to carefully study at least a dozen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> papers
    that may average 15 pages each. The basic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion
    of a "well founded justification tree" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
    means the Proof Theoretic notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduction to
    a Canonical proof.


    % This sentence is not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
    have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
    positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
    to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
    yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Postulates,
    the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree
    eliminates undecidability is a key element of my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system.
    Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification tree in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peano
    arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent
    all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you need an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a function of the Prolog language that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use
    unify_with_occurs_check to
    determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.


    [00] reCx
    roe
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    roe
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals
    roe
    roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roe roe
    roe roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x <roE
    roe roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roe rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y <ro+roCroE
    roe roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right) roe roe
    roe roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predicate
    unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether
    reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree ?

    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I showed this in an existing well understood logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> admit
    that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4 03
    03 Prov[PA] 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01 // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    An ad-hominem with an unproven premise disqualifies your comment. >>>>>>>>>> Though an ad-hominem would disqualify it even if the premise were >>>>>>>>>> proven.



    Wikipedia has a page about rhetorical fallacies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    These are parts of greater accounts of deductive inference
    to allay and prevent failures or sabotage of inductive inference, >>>>>>>>> the "invincible" ignorance of inductive inference.

    This then makes for "two wrongs does not make a right".

    The usual account of "axioms" must be distinguished into
    at least two kinds: those that "expand comprehension",
    and those that "restrict comprehension". Basically one has
    that under expansion-of-comprehension, that alternatives
    or inverses exist, the other restriction-of-comprehension,
    that one or the other doesn't exist.

    "Inductive inference" isn't a lie, though, given a lie,
    it can't tell the truth.

    Then, Wikipedia also has a page about paradox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

    Then, paradoxes are usually enough given as results of
    logic, here about logical paradoxes that would find themselves >>>>>>>>> in any theory, not about conflicting theories tangentially
    relevant each other, those just being a model of conflicting >>>>>>>>> theories.

    So, about resolving the paradoxes of logic, like Russell
    and Burali-Forti and Cantor the paradoxes, these being
    references to modern accounts of logic, and about the
    Barber and the Heap and the Liar, these being references
    to classical expositions of logic, has that eventually any
    sort of restriction of comprehension in the universe of
    logical objects may thusly be found by expansion of comprehension >>>>>>>>> in the universe of logical objects to be contradicted.

    So, it's known since antiquity that any sort of inductive
    account can be broken.

    Then, these "inductive impasses", must need make for
    "analytical bridges", where there's a very particular
    account of the primeval of the primary, about a universe
    of truth already, else any sort of account of axiomatics
    with restriction-of-comprehension is broken, instead of
    merely being an example of perspective and thus limited
    perspective.



    So, the account of Pete Olcott is just a crank's/troll's/bot's >>>>>>>>> account, adding more restriction-of-comprehension above a
    perceived "foundation" that's a false floor, futile and
    doomed to fail, while yet simply enough making a claim
    that "if it's not wrong it's not wrong", then furthermore
    more or less saying "can't tell the difference between
    fallacy and paradox and truth".


    Here then we may have a modal temporal relevance logic
    and a theory where classical logic is modal and excludes
    the "material implication" since Chrysippus, and to re-name
    the usual account of 20'th century "classical logic" as instead >>>>>>>>> along the lines of "Philo's Plotinus' Occam's Compte's Boole's >>>>>>>>> Russell's Carnap's nominalist fictionalist logicist positivist >>>>>>>>> Tarski's Goedel's quasi-modal account of logic and truth", that >>>>>>>>> "Olcott's Goedel's" is yet another account of the quasi-modal. >>>>>>>>>
    So, it's a crank's/troll's/bot's, sometimes easier just
    not to feed it. That said, it's a ready interpretation from
    something like modern accounts of inference that simply employ >>>>>>>>> quasi-modal logic throughout and suggest thusly tabulating fact >>>>>>>>> after fact as truth, and making the fallacy of calling that
    "monotonicity" and "entailment", which would be a lie, or as >>>>>>>>> with regards to contradicting either the competency or veracity, >>>>>>>>> of such accounts.


    So, PO's futile flailings are just a reflection on the current >>>>>>>>> intellectual inertia about the quasi-modal logic, which taking >>>>>>>>> a partial account of a partial account, wronged itself twice. >>>>>>>>>


    "The notion of a well-founded justification tree
    will be fully elaborated."



    A finite back-chained inference from the expression
    to its axioms. As shown below in MTT the absence of
    cycles in the directed graph of the expressions
    evaluation sequence.

    % This sentence cannot be proven in F
    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.

    https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?
    predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence
    00 rao 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4 03
    03 Prov[PA] 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01 // cycle



    No, a deductive account about the possibilities and limits of
    inductive inference, helping explain any super-classical result,
    not just a rule-sniffing dog that follows its own brown nose.


    Goedel's incompleteness result is much simpler after a simple
    sort of account of quantification and the old "sputniks of
    quantification", that readily demonstrate something like
    Russell's paradox in account of ordinary arithmetic, for
    what somebody like Mirimanoff calls the "extra-ordinary",
    and Skolem constructs for fragments and extensions in the
    ordinary account of usual model theory about models of integers,
    then that Goedel's incompleteness basically gives limits of
    applicability of _claims_, here emphasized the _claims_ as
    being the proper word for accounts of inference over usual
    sorts of nominalist fictionalist logicist positivists' theories.

    Otherwise anybody can just come along and prove Russell wrong,
    prove Cantor wrong, and otherwise without a paradox-free reason
    its account thereof overall, has that "the notion of a well-founded >>>>>> justification tree", about e-minimality usually enough, to
    be _elaborated_, involves the _diligence_ and the _thoroughness_
    of a conscientious account of the extra-ordinary, the super-standard, >>>>>> and the reasoning for _continuity_, and, _infinity_.


    This PO account used to be a bit more open-minded, now it's
    quite firmly retro-finitist, the hall-mark of the crank and troll. >>>>>>
    So, PO, if there is to be elaborated "well-founded justification
    trees",
    they live in a domain of discourse with other rulialities
    than
    well-foundedness/e-minimality/no-infinite-descending-epsilon-chains, >>>>>> and
    somehow in reality and in logic they _do_ all get along.

    "E-laborated" means the diligent work was done,
    the work was worked out of it, not just "defined" done.


    You need an account that rejects quasi-modal logic or
    else anyone can easily give innocuous non-facts that
    define themselves "true".



    It is best understood within the essential framework
    of Prolog of back-chained inference from expressions
    using Rules to reach Facts.

    Prolog itself is far too weak to generalize this,
    none-the-less the infrastructure of expressions
    anchored in Facts and Rules does provide the complete
    essence.

    When we do it this way much of what has been misconstrued
    as "undecidability" becomes expressions that are rejected
    because they remain ungrounded in Facts.

    This is not merely the foundations of math and logic
    it is alternative foundations for math and logic that
    reject and replace the conventional views.


    I'd suggest not using the word "understood", with regards
    to reasoning about _closures_ and furthermore _completions_,
    with regards to things like "infinite limits" the completions.

    Facts and rules for rules-engines and the like are very old-hat,
    and contradictory rules

    Are excluded.

    in such accounts given un-true stated
    "facts", besides that "facts" in such accounts are stipulated,
    with regards to "verum" vis-a-vis "certum" and that it's only
    conscientiously a _scientific_ account, con-scient-ious.


    I don't speak Latin. These stipulated Facts are actually true
    that is all that need be known about them.

    The usual account of quasi-modal logic assumes that
    _time has stopped and there is no change_,
    the quasi-modal account itself is _not_ a temporal logic
    and thusly _not_ a modal logic. Furthermore, the quasi-modal
    logic's account of "monotonicity" fails, then that also
    the "entailment" is not an apropos term, and besides usual
    accounts of "garbage-in/garbage-out" is "crazy-in/crazy-out".


    All we need to know that that the Facts are true Facts about general
    knowledge.

    So, math and logic have _infinity_ and _infinitary reasoning_,
    they are _not_ going away.


    Not when restricted to the finite list of true (atomic) Facts of general >>> knowledge.

    What you got there is, at best, a calculus of closed-categories,
    and if it's not extra-ordinary and super-standard, then it's not.


    When closed-categories is referring to the Frege compositional meaning
    and not some idiomatic term-of-the-art then yes closed-categories.

    About "un-decide-ability", there's furthermore an even stronger
    account of _independence_, the mathematical independence, since

    I don't need to yet into the nuances of of terms-of-the-art
    idiosyncrasies. Either an expression can be resolved to true
    or false or it is not a member of the body of knowledge
    expressed in language.

    there are multiple laws of large numbers, and that measure theory
    makes for quasi-invariant measure theory, since doubling/halving
    spaces/measures make for the re-Vitali-ization of measure theory
    about Vitali and Hausdorff and equi-decomposability, and for
    analysts about competing accounts of _convergence_ and _emergence_,
    that it is _real_ that some accounts of naive uniqueness instead
    are ascribed particular distinctness, about real completions in
    the objects of mathematics, beyond "not enough information".


    If expressions cannot reach Facts using Rules then they
    are out-of-scope. In this case the Rules are full natural
    language semantics specified syntactically.


    So, your usage of the words is unfortunately poisoned by the
    fact that quasi-modal logic makes you think "material implication"
    is a thing and that it does the thing, when it is not and does not.



    My whole system is constructed entirely on the
    basis of A is a necessary consequence of B.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.

    Disjunction introduction is totally rejected.
    Material implication may be entirely rejected.

    Your somewhat convoluted language seems to mostly miss the
    point of the barest essence of
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"


    That's a usual account of "true" in common sense,
    then though _all_ the mathematics and logic of
    the infinite and infinitary bring _all_ their
    matters of rigor resolving paradox for _any_
    sorts formal accounts.

    Or, "math is hard".

    "True on the basis of meaning is true" is a sort
    of coherent, pragmatist, correspondence definition
    of truth, while though here there's always that
    "is" is what "is" is.


    It took me 27 years to come up with this bridge between coherence/correspondence analytic/synthetic unifying
    them into on single exact and precise perspective.

    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"

    expressed in language
    expressed in language
    expressed in language

    Saying that a system is "whole" does not give that
    it's "complete". Furthermore, matters of the
    continuous and infinite must make for the "replete".



    every single detail of general knowledge
    "EXPRESSED IN LANGUAGE" can be encoded in my system
    thus as complete as complete can possibly be.

    Much of this must be algorithmically compressed
    to make it finite.


    The use of the words "anchor" or "Goedelian anchor"
    or any mention of "delve" or "crucial" and recently
    enough "compression" sure sounds like a bot to me.


    The compression has at least two kinds:
    loss-less and loss-y.

    "Methods of exhaustion" are _not_ the completions themselves,
    and naive inductive accounts do _not_ complete themselves.


    Making "claims" absent "proofs" isn't quite use-less,
    though it is illogical.

    Perhaps it would help if you posted all your ramblings
    with your bot bros instead of just posting the same
    snippet a hundreds times and since it's malformed
    saying that it's profound.


    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 13:09:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/2026 12:51 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 12:33 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:18 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:35 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 09:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:06 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 08:49 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 10:15 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/14/2026 05:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/13/2026 11:34 PM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing
    foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or at
    least
    some finite time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I have to carefully study at least a dozen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> papers
    that may average 15 pages each. The basic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion
    of a "well founded justification tree" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
    means the Proof Theoretic notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduction to
    a Canonical proof. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    % This sentence is not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?- LP = not(true(LP)). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
    have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
    positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
    to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
    yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Postulates,
    the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree
    eliminates undecidability is a key element of my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system.
    Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree in
    Peano
    arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent
    all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need an
    algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a function of the Prolog language that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use
    unify_with_occurs_check to
    determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.


    [00] reCx
    -a roe
    -a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x-a <roE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y-a <ro+roCroE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right)-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predicate
    unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether
    reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree ?

    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I showed this in an existing well understood logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admit
    that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
    false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    An ad-hominem with an unproven premise disqualifies your >>>>>>>>>>> comment.
    Though an ad-hominem would disqualify it even if the premise >>>>>>>>>>> were
    proven.



    Wikipedia has a page about rhetorical fallacies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    These are parts of greater accounts of deductive inference >>>>>>>>>> to allay and prevent failures or sabotage of inductive inference, >>>>>>>>>> the "invincible" ignorance of inductive inference.

    This then makes for "two wrongs does not make a right".

    The usual account of "axioms" must be distinguished into
    at least two kinds: those that "expand comprehension",
    and those that "restrict comprehension". Basically one has >>>>>>>>>> that under expansion-of-comprehension, that alternatives
    or inverses exist, the other restriction-of-comprehension, >>>>>>>>>> that one or the other doesn't exist.

    "Inductive inference" isn't a lie, though, given a lie,
    it can't tell the truth.

    Then, Wikipedia also has a page about paradox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

    Then, paradoxes are usually enough given as results of
    logic, here about logical paradoxes that would find themselves >>>>>>>>>> in any theory, not about conflicting theories tangentially >>>>>>>>>> relevant each other, those just being a model of conflicting >>>>>>>>>> theories.

    So, about resolving the paradoxes of logic, like Russell
    and Burali-Forti and Cantor the paradoxes, these being
    references to modern accounts of logic, and about the
    Barber and the Heap and the Liar, these being references
    to classical expositions of logic, has that eventually any >>>>>>>>>> sort of restriction of comprehension in the universe of
    logical objects may thusly be found by expansion of comprehension >>>>>>>>>> in the universe of logical objects to be contradicted.

    So, it's known since antiquity that any sort of inductive
    account can be broken.

    Then, these "inductive impasses", must need make for
    "analytical bridges", where there's a very particular
    account of the primeval of the primary, about a universe
    of truth already, else any sort of account of axiomatics
    with restriction-of-comprehension is broken, instead of
    merely being an example of perspective and thus limited
    perspective.



    So, the account of Pete Olcott is just a crank's/troll's/bot's >>>>>>>>>> account, adding more restriction-of-comprehension above a
    perceived "foundation" that's a false floor, futile and
    doomed to fail, while yet simply enough making a claim
    that "if it's not wrong it's not wrong", then furthermore
    more or less saying "can't tell the difference between
    fallacy and paradox and truth".


    Here then we may have a modal temporal relevance logic
    and a theory where classical logic is modal and excludes
    the "material implication" since Chrysippus, and to re-name >>>>>>>>>> the usual account of 20'th century "classical logic" as instead >>>>>>>>>> along the lines of "Philo's Plotinus' Occam's Compte's Boole's >>>>>>>>>> Russell's Carnap's nominalist fictionalist logicist positivist >>>>>>>>>> Tarski's Goedel's quasi-modal account of logic and truth", that >>>>>>>>>> "Olcott's Goedel's" is yet another account of the quasi-modal. >>>>>>>>>>
    So, it's a crank's/troll's/bot's, sometimes easier just
    not to feed it. That said, it's a ready interpretation from >>>>>>>>>> something like modern accounts of inference that simply employ >>>>>>>>>> quasi-modal logic throughout and suggest thusly tabulating fact >>>>>>>>>> after fact as truth, and making the fallacy of calling that >>>>>>>>>> "monotonicity" and "entailment", which would be a lie, or as >>>>>>>>>> with regards to contradicting either the competency or veracity, >>>>>>>>>> of such accounts.


    So, PO's futile flailings are just a reflection on the current >>>>>>>>>> intellectual inertia about the quasi-modal logic, which taking >>>>>>>>>> a partial account of a partial account, wronged itself twice. >>>>>>>>>>


    "The notion of a well-founded justification tree
    will be fully elaborated."



    A finite back-chained inference from the expression
    to its axioms. As shown below in MTT the absence of
    cycles in the directed graph of the expressions
    evaluation sequence.

    % This sentence cannot be proven in F
    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.

    https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?
    predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence
    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle



    No, a deductive account about the possibilities and limits of
    inductive inference, helping explain any super-classical result, >>>>>>> not just a rule-sniffing dog that follows its own brown nose.


    Goedel's incompleteness result is much simpler after a simple
    sort of account of quantification and the old "sputniks of
    quantification", that readily demonstrate something like
    Russell's paradox in account of ordinary arithmetic, for
    what somebody like Mirimanoff calls the "extra-ordinary",
    and Skolem constructs for fragments and extensions in the
    ordinary account of usual model theory about models of integers, >>>>>>> then that Goedel's incompleteness basically gives limits of
    applicability of _claims_, here emphasized the _claims_ as
    being the proper word for accounts of inference over usual
    sorts of nominalist fictionalist logicist positivists' theories. >>>>>>>
    Otherwise anybody can just come along and prove Russell wrong,
    prove Cantor wrong, and otherwise without a paradox-free reason
    its account thereof overall, has that "the notion of a well-founded >>>>>>> justification tree", about e-minimality usually enough, to
    be _elaborated_, involves the _diligence_ and the _thoroughness_ >>>>>>> of a conscientious account of the extra-ordinary, the super-
    standard,
    and the reasoning for _continuity_, and, _infinity_.


    This PO account used to be a bit more open-minded, now it's
    quite firmly retro-finitist, the hall-mark of the crank and troll. >>>>>>>
    So, PO, if there is to be elaborated "well-founded justification >>>>>>> trees",
    they live in a domain of discourse with other rulialities
    than
    well-foundedness/e-minimality/no-infinite-descending-epsilon-chains, >>>>>>> and
    somehow in reality and in logic they _do_ all get along.

    "E-laborated" means the diligent work was done,
    the work was worked out of it, not just "defined" done.


    You need an account that rejects quasi-modal logic or
    else anyone can easily give innocuous non-facts that
    define themselves "true".



    It is best understood within the essential framework
    of Prolog of back-chained inference from expressions
    using Rules to reach Facts.

    Prolog itself is far too weak to generalize this,
    none-the-less the infrastructure of expressions
    anchored in Facts and Rules does provide the complete
    essence.

    When we do it this way much of what has been misconstrued
    as "undecidability" becomes expressions that are rejected
    because they remain ungrounded in Facts.

    This is not merely the foundations of math and logic
    it is alternative foundations for math and logic that
    reject and replace the conventional views.


    I'd suggest not using the word "understood", with regards
    to reasoning about _closures_ and furthermore _completions_,
    with regards to things like "infinite limits" the completions.

    Facts and rules for rules-engines and the like are very old-hat,
    and contradictory rules

    Are excluded.

    in such accounts given un-true stated
    "facts", besides that "facts" in such accounts are stipulated,
    with regards to "verum" vis-a-vis "certum" and that it's only
    conscientiously a _scientific_ account, con-scient-ious.


    I don't speak Latin. These stipulated Facts are actually true
    that is all that need be known about them.

    The usual account of quasi-modal logic assumes that
    _time has stopped and there is no change_,
    the quasi-modal account itself is _not_ a temporal logic
    and thusly _not_ a modal logic. Furthermore, the quasi-modal
    logic's account of "monotonicity" fails, then that also
    the "entailment" is not an apropos term, and besides usual
    accounts of "garbage-in/garbage-out" is "crazy-in/crazy-out".


    All we need to know that that the Facts are true Facts about general
    knowledge.

    So, math and logic have _infinity_ and _infinitary reasoning_,
    they are _not_ going away.


    Not when restricted to the finite list of true (atomic) Facts of
    general
    knowledge.

    What you got there is, at best, a calculus of closed-categories,
    and if it's not extra-ordinary and super-standard, then it's not.


    When closed-categories is referring to the Frege compositional meaning >>>> and not some idiomatic term-of-the-art then yes closed-categories.

    About "un-decide-ability", there's furthermore an even stronger
    account of _independence_, the mathematical independence, since

    I don't need to yet into the nuances of of terms-of-the-art
    idiosyncrasies. Either an expression can be resolved to true
    or false or it is not a member of the body of knowledge
    expressed in language.

    there are multiple laws of large numbers, and that measure theory
    makes for quasi-invariant measure theory, since doubling/halving
    spaces/measures make for the re-Vitali-ization of measure theory
    about Vitali and Hausdorff and equi-decomposability, and for
    analysts about competing accounts of _convergence_ and _emergence_,
    that it is _real_ that some accounts of naive uniqueness instead
    are ascribed particular distinctness, about real completions in
    the objects of mathematics, beyond "not enough information".


    If expressions cannot reach Facts using Rules then they
    are out-of-scope. In this case the Rules are full natural
    language semantics specified syntactically.


    So, your usage of the words is unfortunately poisoned by the
    fact that quasi-modal logic makes you think "material implication"
    is a thing and that it does the thing, when it is not and does not.



    My whole system is constructed entirely on the
    basis of A is a necessary consequence of B.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.

    Disjunction introduction is totally rejected.
    Material implication may be entirely rejected.

    Your somewhat convoluted language seems to mostly miss the
    point of the barest essence of
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"


    That's a usual account of "true" in common sense,
    then though _all_ the mathematics and logic of
    the infinite and infinitary bring _all_ their
    matters of rigor resolving paradox for _any_
    sorts formal accounts.

    Or, "math is hard".

    "True on the basis of meaning is true" is a sort
    of coherent, pragmatist, correspondence definition
    of truth, while though here there's always that
    "is" is what "is" is.


    It took me 27 years to come up with this bridge between
    coherence/correspondence analytic/synthetic unifying
    them into on single exact and precise perspective.

    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"

    expressed in language
    expressed in language
    expressed in language

    Saying that a system is "whole" does not give that
    it's "complete". Furthermore, matters of the
    continuous and infinite must make for the "replete".



    every single detail of general knowledge
    "EXPRESSED IN LANGUAGE" can be encoded in my system
    thus as complete as complete can possibly be.

    Much of this must be algorithmically compressed
    to make it finite.


    The use of the words "anchor" or "Goedelian anchor"
    or any mention of "delve" or "crucial" and recently
    enough "compression" sure sounds like a bot to me.


    The compression has at least two kinds:
    loss-less and loss-y.

    "Methods of exhaustion" are _not_ the completions themselves,
    and naive inductive accounts do _not_ complete themselves.


    Making "claims" absent "proofs" isn't quite use-less,
    though it is illogical.

    Perhaps it would help if you posted all your ramblings
    with your bot bros instead of just posting the same
    snippet a hundreds times and since it's malformed
    saying that it's profound.



    In other words you are merely another learned-by-rote
    guy and find philosophical underpinnings to be complete
    nonsense within your rote memorization of the conventional
    view perspective.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 11:53:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 04/15/2026 11:09 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 12:51 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:43 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 12:33 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 10:18 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:35 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 09:17 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:06 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 08:49 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 10:15 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/14/2026 05:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/13/2026 11:34 PM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing
    foundational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or at
    least
    some finite time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I have to carefully study at least a dozen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> papers
    that may average 15 pages each. The basic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion
    of a "well founded justification tree" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
    means the Proof Theoretic notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduction to
    a Canonical proof. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    % This sentence is not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?- LP = not(true(LP)). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
    have two examples: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one with a negative result (as above) and one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
    positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
    that
    has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    result will not be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    That's mainly true. However, in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> como.lang.prolog
    the
    discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
    case
    to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example
    not
    yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
    Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Postulates,
    the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree
    eliminates undecidability is a key element of my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system.
    Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether a
    sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree in
    Peano
    arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represent
    all of the semantics of PA can be developed so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
    it detects and rejects expressions that lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need an
    algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a function of the Prolog language that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well-founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so it
    needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It certainly does. You can't use
    unify_with_occurs_check to
    determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.


    [00] reCx
    roe
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    roe
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roe
    roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roe roe
    roe roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x <roE
    roe roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roe rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y <ro+roCroE
    roe roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Shared
    Pointers)
    rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right) roe roe
    roe roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    roe roe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predicate
    unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether
    reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree ?

    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I showed this in an existing well understood logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admit
    that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification
    tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
    false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4 03
    03 Prov[PA] 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01 // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes >>>>>>>>>>>>> an instance of incoherent semantics.

    An ad-hominem with an unproven premise disqualifies your >>>>>>>>>>>> comment.
    Though an ad-hominem would disqualify it even if the premise >>>>>>>>>>>> were
    proven.



    Wikipedia has a page about rhetorical fallacies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    These are parts of greater accounts of deductive inference >>>>>>>>>>> to allay and prevent failures or sabotage of inductive
    inference,
    the "invincible" ignorance of inductive inference.

    This then makes for "two wrongs does not make a right".

    The usual account of "axioms" must be distinguished into >>>>>>>>>>> at least two kinds: those that "expand comprehension",
    and those that "restrict comprehension". Basically one has >>>>>>>>>>> that under expansion-of-comprehension, that alternatives >>>>>>>>>>> or inverses exist, the other restriction-of-comprehension, >>>>>>>>>>> that one or the other doesn't exist.

    "Inductive inference" isn't a lie, though, given a lie,
    it can't tell the truth.

    Then, Wikipedia also has a page about paradox.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paradoxes

    Then, paradoxes are usually enough given as results of
    logic, here about logical paradoxes that would find themselves >>>>>>>>>>> in any theory, not about conflicting theories tangentially >>>>>>>>>>> relevant each other, those just being a model of conflicting >>>>>>>>>>> theories.

    So, about resolving the paradoxes of logic, like Russell >>>>>>>>>>> and Burali-Forti and Cantor the paradoxes, these being
    references to modern accounts of logic, and about the
    Barber and the Heap and the Liar, these being references >>>>>>>>>>> to classical expositions of logic, has that eventually any >>>>>>>>>>> sort of restriction of comprehension in the universe of
    logical objects may thusly be found by expansion of
    comprehension
    in the universe of logical objects to be contradicted.

    So, it's known since antiquity that any sort of inductive >>>>>>>>>>> account can be broken.

    Then, these "inductive impasses", must need make for
    "analytical bridges", where there's a very particular
    account of the primeval of the primary, about a universe >>>>>>>>>>> of truth already, else any sort of account of axiomatics >>>>>>>>>>> with restriction-of-comprehension is broken, instead of
    merely being an example of perspective and thus limited
    perspective.



    So, the account of Pete Olcott is just a crank's/troll's/bot's >>>>>>>>>>> account, adding more restriction-of-comprehension above a >>>>>>>>>>> perceived "foundation" that's a false floor, futile and
    doomed to fail, while yet simply enough making a claim
    that "if it's not wrong it's not wrong", then furthermore >>>>>>>>>>> more or less saying "can't tell the difference between
    fallacy and paradox and truth".


    Here then we may have a modal temporal relevance logic
    and a theory where classical logic is modal and excludes >>>>>>>>>>> the "material implication" since Chrysippus, and to re-name >>>>>>>>>>> the usual account of 20'th century "classical logic" as instead >>>>>>>>>>> along the lines of "Philo's Plotinus' Occam's Compte's Boole's >>>>>>>>>>> Russell's Carnap's nominalist fictionalist logicist positivist >>>>>>>>>>> Tarski's Goedel's quasi-modal account of logic and truth", that >>>>>>>>>>> "Olcott's Goedel's" is yet another account of the quasi-modal. >>>>>>>>>>>
    So, it's a crank's/troll's/bot's, sometimes easier just
    not to feed it. That said, it's a ready interpretation from >>>>>>>>>>> something like modern accounts of inference that simply employ >>>>>>>>>>> quasi-modal logic throughout and suggest thusly tabulating fact >>>>>>>>>>> after fact as truth, and making the fallacy of calling that >>>>>>>>>>> "monotonicity" and "entailment", which would be a lie, or as >>>>>>>>>>> with regards to contradicting either the competency or veracity, >>>>>>>>>>> of such accounts.


    So, PO's futile flailings are just a reflection on the current >>>>>>>>>>> intellectual inertia about the quasi-modal logic, which taking >>>>>>>>>>> a partial account of a partial account, wronged itself twice. >>>>>>>>>>>


    "The notion of a well-founded justification tree
    will be fully elaborated."



    A finite back-chained inference from the expression
    to its axioms. As shown below in MTT the absence of
    cycles in the directed graph of the expressions
    evaluation sequence.

    % This sentence cannot be proven in F
    ?- G = not(provable(F, G)).
    G = not(provable(F, G)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(G, not(provable(F, G))).
    false.

    https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?
    predicate=unify_with_occurs_check/2

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence
    00 rao 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4 03
    03 Prov[PA] 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01 // cycle



    No, a deductive account about the possibilities and limits of
    inductive inference, helping explain any super-classical result, >>>>>>>> not just a rule-sniffing dog that follows its own brown nose.


    Goedel's incompleteness result is much simpler after a simple
    sort of account of quantification and the old "sputniks of
    quantification", that readily demonstrate something like
    Russell's paradox in account of ordinary arithmetic, for
    what somebody like Mirimanoff calls the "extra-ordinary",
    and Skolem constructs for fragments and extensions in the
    ordinary account of usual model theory about models of integers, >>>>>>>> then that Goedel's incompleteness basically gives limits of
    applicability of _claims_, here emphasized the _claims_ as
    being the proper word for accounts of inference over usual
    sorts of nominalist fictionalist logicist positivists' theories. >>>>>>>>
    Otherwise anybody can just come along and prove Russell wrong, >>>>>>>> prove Cantor wrong, and otherwise without a paradox-free reason >>>>>>>> its account thereof overall, has that "the notion of a well-founded >>>>>>>> justification tree", about e-minimality usually enough, to
    be _elaborated_, involves the _diligence_ and the _thoroughness_ >>>>>>>> of a conscientious account of the extra-ordinary, the super-
    standard,
    and the reasoning for _continuity_, and, _infinity_.


    This PO account used to be a bit more open-minded, now it's
    quite firmly retro-finitist, the hall-mark of the crank and troll. >>>>>>>>
    So, PO, if there is to be elaborated "well-founded justification >>>>>>>> trees",
    they live in a domain of discourse with other rulialities
    than
    well-foundedness/e-minimality/no-infinite-descending-epsilon-chains, >>>>>>>>
    and
    somehow in reality and in logic they _do_ all get along.

    "E-laborated" means the diligent work was done,
    the work was worked out of it, not just "defined" done.


    You need an account that rejects quasi-modal logic or
    else anyone can easily give innocuous non-facts that
    define themselves "true".



    It is best understood within the essential framework
    of Prolog of back-chained inference from expressions
    using Rules to reach Facts.

    Prolog itself is far too weak to generalize this,
    none-the-less the infrastructure of expressions
    anchored in Facts and Rules does provide the complete
    essence.

    When we do it this way much of what has been misconstrued
    as "undecidability" becomes expressions that are rejected
    because they remain ungrounded in Facts.

    This is not merely the foundations of math and logic
    it is alternative foundations for math and logic that
    reject and replace the conventional views.


    I'd suggest not using the word "understood", with regards
    to reasoning about _closures_ and furthermore _completions_,
    with regards to things like "infinite limits" the completions.

    Facts and rules for rules-engines and the like are very old-hat,
    and contradictory rules

    Are excluded.

    in such accounts given un-true stated
    "facts", besides that "facts" in such accounts are stipulated,
    with regards to "verum" vis-a-vis "certum" and that it's only
    conscientiously a _scientific_ account, con-scient-ious.


    I don't speak Latin. These stipulated Facts are actually true
    that is all that need be known about them.

    The usual account of quasi-modal logic assumes that
    _time has stopped and there is no change_,
    the quasi-modal account itself is _not_ a temporal logic
    and thusly _not_ a modal logic. Furthermore, the quasi-modal
    logic's account of "monotonicity" fails, then that also
    the "entailment" is not an apropos term, and besides usual
    accounts of "garbage-in/garbage-out" is "crazy-in/crazy-out".


    All we need to know that that the Facts are true Facts about general >>>>> knowledge.

    So, math and logic have _infinity_ and _infinitary reasoning_,
    they are _not_ going away.


    Not when restricted to the finite list of true (atomic) Facts of
    general
    knowledge.

    What you got there is, at best, a calculus of closed-categories,
    and if it's not extra-ordinary and super-standard, then it's not.


    When closed-categories is referring to the Frege compositional meaning >>>>> and not some idiomatic term-of-the-art then yes closed-categories.

    About "un-decide-ability", there's furthermore an even stronger
    account of _independence_, the mathematical independence, since

    I don't need to yet into the nuances of of terms-of-the-art
    idiosyncrasies. Either an expression can be resolved to true
    or false or it is not a member of the body of knowledge
    expressed in language.

    there are multiple laws of large numbers, and that measure theory
    makes for quasi-invariant measure theory, since doubling/halving
    spaces/measures make for the re-Vitali-ization of measure theory
    about Vitali and Hausdorff and equi-decomposability, and for
    analysts about competing accounts of _convergence_ and _emergence_, >>>>>> that it is _real_ that some accounts of naive uniqueness instead
    are ascribed particular distinctness, about real completions in
    the objects of mathematics, beyond "not enough information".


    If expressions cannot reach Facts using Rules then they
    are out-of-scope. In this case the Rules are full natural
    language semantics specified syntactically.


    So, your usage of the words is unfortunately poisoned by the
    fact that quasi-modal logic makes you think "material implication" >>>>>> is a thing and that it does the thing, when it is not and does not. >>>>>>


    My whole system is constructed entirely on the
    basis of A is a necessary consequence of B.
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.

    Disjunction introduction is totally rejected.
    Material implication may be entirely rejected.

    Your somewhat convoluted language seems to mostly miss the
    point of the barest essence of
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"


    That's a usual account of "true" in common sense,
    then though _all_ the mathematics and logic of
    the infinite and infinitary bring _all_ their
    matters of rigor resolving paradox for _any_
    sorts formal accounts.

    Or, "math is hard".

    "True on the basis of meaning is true" is a sort
    of coherent, pragmatist, correspondence definition
    of truth, while though here there's always that
    "is" is what "is" is.


    It took me 27 years to come up with this bridge between
    coherence/correspondence analytic/synthetic unifying
    them into on single exact and precise perspective.

    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"

    expressed in language
    expressed in language
    expressed in language

    Saying that a system is "whole" does not give that
    it's "complete". Furthermore, matters of the
    continuous and infinite must make for the "replete".



    every single detail of general knowledge
    "EXPRESSED IN LANGUAGE" can be encoded in my system
    thus as complete as complete can possibly be.

    Much of this must be algorithmically compressed
    to make it finite.


    The use of the words "anchor" or "Goedelian anchor"
    or any mention of "delve" or "crucial" and recently
    enough "compression" sure sounds like a bot to me.


    The compression has at least two kinds:
    loss-less and loss-y.

    "Methods of exhaustion" are _not_ the completions themselves,
    and naive inductive accounts do _not_ complete themselves.


    Making "claims" absent "proofs" isn't quite use-less,
    though it is illogical.

    Perhaps it would help if you posted all your ramblings
    with your bot bros instead of just posting the same
    snippet a hundreds times and since it's malformed
    saying that it's profound.



    In other words you are merely another learned-by-rote
    guy and find philosophical underpinnings to be complete
    nonsense within your rote memorization of the conventional
    view perspective.


    How transparent: yet another cliche example of psychological
    projection, or putting the words negating yourself in the
    mouths of your perceived opponents, ....

    The "invincible ignorance" of "inductive inference" just
    isn't so invincible any-more.

    One may not simply "replace" other theories, except for
    brain-washed re-educated types, there is only the
    _interpretation_ of theories then as with regards to
    the _equi-interpretable_ that _model theory_ always
    has an account of both being _equi-interpretable_
    with proof theory, _and_, interpreting it.

    Then with regards to proof theory modeling proofs
    of model theory, it's a structural account with
    all the relations.

    Maybe you should sometimes look at your bot bros
    as talking _at_ you instead of talking _for_ you.

    Talk about your bad speech-writers, ....



    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@agisaak@gm.invalid to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 13:13:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different posters
    now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware of the
    existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago which means
    that you have hardly had enough time to become an expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague
    resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g. Schroeder-Heister
    or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS which they very clearly
    don't endorse.

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is
    (referring to the works of others here won't cut it since as I point out
    above you seem to have a very different interpretation of PTS than its proponents hold), and until you actually lay out what your "extensions"
    are, no one is in any position to discuss your ideas.

    Andr|-

    The current state of PTS seems to still be anchored in
    what is essentially propositional logic whereas my system
    has been anchored in formalized natural language semantics
    for a long time.

    So you're really not in a position to tell people what an expert in
    PTS might claim about any particular issue.

    Andr|-



    --
    To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
    service.

    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 15:37:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/2026 2:13 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different posters
    now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware of the
    existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago which means
    that you have hardly had enough time to become an expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g. Schroeder-Heister
    or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS which they very clearly don't endorse.


    Try to explain the details of this.
    I am referring to aspects where Professor Dag Prawitz
    and professor Peter Schroeder-Heister may have divergent
    views. My perspective unifies these divergent views.

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is

    I cannot teach my reviewers the entire PTS basis.

    (referring to the works of others here won't cut it since as I point out above you seem to have a very different interpretation of PTS than its proponents hold), and until you actually lay out what your "extensions"
    are, no one is in any position to discuss your ideas.

    Andr|-

    The current state of PTS seems to still be anchored in
    what is essentially propositional logic whereas my system
    has been anchored in formalized natural language semantics
    for a long time.

    So you're really not in a position to tell people what an expert in
    PTS might claim about any particular issue.

    Andr|-




    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 14:04:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 04/15/2026 01:37 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:13 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different posters
    now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware of the
    existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago which means
    that you have hardly had enough time to become an expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague
    resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g.
    Schroeder-Heister or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS
    which they very clearly don't endorse.


    Try to explain the details of this.
    I am referring to aspects where Professor Dag Prawitz
    and professor Peter Schroeder-Heister may have divergent
    views. My perspective unifies these divergent views.

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is

    I cannot teach my reviewers the entire PTS basis.

    (referring to the works of others here won't cut it since as I point
    out above you seem to have a very different interpretation of PTS than
    its proponents hold), and until you actually lay out what your
    "extensions" are, no one is in any position to discuss your ideas.

    Andr|-

    The current state of PTS seems to still be anchored in
    what is essentially propositional logic whereas my system
    has been anchored in formalized natural language semantics
    for a long time.

    So you're really not in a position to tell people what an expert in
    PTS might claim about any particular issue.

    Andr|-







    If you can't explain it then you don't know it.


    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 16:39:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/2026 4:04 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 04/15/2026 01:37 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:13 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different posters >>>>> now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware of the
    existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago which means
    that you have hardly had enough time to become an expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague
    resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g.
    Schroeder-Heister or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS
    which they very clearly don't endorse.


    Try to explain the details of this.
    I am referring to aspects where Professor Dag Prawitz
    and professor Peter Schroeder-Heister may have divergent
    views. My perspective unifies these divergent views.

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is

    I cannot teach my reviewers the entire PTS basis.

    (referring to the works of others here won't cut it since as I point
    out above you seem to have a very different interpretation of PTS than
    its proponents hold), and until you actually lay out what your
    "extensions" are, no one is in any position to discuss your ideas.

    Andr|-

    The current state of PTS seems to still be anchored in
    what is essentially propositional logic whereas my system
    has been anchored in formalized natural language semantics
    for a long time.

    So you're really not in a position to tell people what an expert in
    PTS might claim about any particular issue.

    Andr|-







    If you can't explain it then you don't know it.



    I cannot teach all of proof theoretic semantics
    effectively to anyone. That is an unreasonable
    request.

    The best that I can do is reference the key papers
    that I use as the key basis for my work.

    The one most important paper cannot be seen because
    of copyright restrictions.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEcuIElzYWFr?=@agisaak@gm.invalid to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 15:40:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 2026-04-15 14:37, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:13 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different posters
    now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware of the
    existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago which means
    that you have hardly had enough time to become an expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague
    resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g.
    Schroeder-Heister or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS
    which they very clearly don't endorse.


    Try to explain the details of this.
    I am referring to aspects where Professor Dag Prawitz
    and professor Peter Schroeder-Heister may have divergent
    views. My perspective unifies these divergent views.

    So what are these divergent views and how exactly have you unified them?

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is

    I cannot teach my reviewers the entire PTS basis.

    If you ever realize your plans to publish your work, you would be
    expected to do just that. PTS is not sufficiently well-known that you
    could get away with simply assuming it in a published paper; you would
    need to lay out the details of this theory.

    Doing so here would be good practice since its something you will
    eventually have to do anyways.

    Andr|-
    --
    To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
    service.

    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Wed Apr 15 17:14:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/2026 4:40 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 14:37, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:13 PM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 11:24, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 11:51 AM, Andr|- G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2026-04-15 06:02, olcott wrote:

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.


    You've said this (or something similar) to several different
    posters now; but bear in mind that you yourself only became aware
    of the existence of proof-theoretic semantics a few months ago
    which means that you have hardly had enough time to become an
    expert in PTS.

    It turns out that all of my ideas have been fully anchored
    in exactly proof theoretic semantics the whole time.

    They really haven't been.

    You stumbled upon a framework which, in your mind, bore some vague
    resemblance to your own ideas, and then you projected your own ideas
    onto that framework. But it's very clear from what you've posted here
    that you don't really understand PTS as used by, e.g. Schroeder-
    Heister or Francez as you keep attributing things to PTS which they
    very clearly don't endorse.


    Try to explain the details of this.
    I am referring to aspects where Professor Dag Prawitz
    and professor Peter Schroeder-Heister may have divergent
    views. My perspective unifies these divergent views.

    So what are these divergent views and how exactly have you unified them?


    Unless you are a PTS expert you would have not unlearned
    model theoretic semantics enough to understand.

    Also
    my current ideas have taken the exact PTS basis and extended
    them much more.

    Well, until you actually clarify what *you* think that PTS basis is

    I cannot teach my reviewers the entire PTS basis.

    If you ever realize your plans to publish your work, you would be
    expected to do just that.


    Not really. I merely need to carefully anchor every
    detail of my ideas within existing PTS papers.

    PTS is not sufficiently well-known that you
    could get away with simply assuming it in a published paper; you would
    need to lay out the details of this theory.

    Doing so here would be good practice since its something you will
    eventually have to do anyways.

    Andr|-



    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Apr 16 11:30:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 15/04/2026 14:59, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 1:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 14/04/2026 16:50, olcott wrote:
    On 4/14/2026 12:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote:
    On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote:
    On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote:
    On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in existing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, or at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least some finite time?

    I have to carefully study at least a dozen papers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that may average 15 pages each. The basic notion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a "well founded justification tree" essentially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means the Proof Theoretic notion of reduction to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Canonical proof.


    % This sentence is not true.
    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING

    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminates undecidability is a key element of my system. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification tree in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peano arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can represent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you need an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    is a function of the Prolog language that
    implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a well- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but
    uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use unify_with_occurs_check to >>>>>>>>>>>> determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded
    justification tree.


    [00] reCx
    -a-aroe
    -a-arooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x-a <roE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y-a <ro+roCroE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right)-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the predicate >>>>>>>>>> unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination whether >>>>>>>>>> reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification tree ? >>>>>>>>>
    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox
    has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense.
    I showed this in an existing well understood logic
    programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you admit >>>>>>>> that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for
    determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>> tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary were >>>>>>>> false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    PTS is irrelevant to G|udel's incompleteness theorem, which is about
    formal logic, not about PTS.

    PTS replaces the foundation of model theory and this
    changes everything.

    Only for PTS. It changes nothing for those who use model theory.

    Likewise modern medicine changes nothing for
    those with the evil spirit theory of disease.

    It might affect the popularity and availability of evil speirit related services.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Apr 16 11:33:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 14/04/2026 16:45, olcott wrote:
    On 4/14/2026 1:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote:
    On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote:
    On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote:
    On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in existing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, or at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least some finite time?

    I have to carefully study at least a dozen papers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that may average 15 pages each. The basic notion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a "well founded justification tree" essentially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means the Proof Theoretic notion of reduction to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Canonical proof.


    % This sentence is not true.
    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING

    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminates undecidability is a key element of my system. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification tree in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peano arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can represent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you need an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    is a function of the Prolog language that
    implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a well- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but
    uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use unify_with_occurs_check to >>>>>>>>>>>> determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded
    justification tree.


    [00] reCx
    -a-aroe
    -a-arooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x-a <roE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y-a <ro+roCroE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right)-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the predicate >>>>>>>>>> unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination whether >>>>>>>>>> reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification tree ? >>>>>>>>>
    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox
    has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense.
    I showed this in an existing well understood logic
    programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you admit >>>>>>>> that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for
    determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>> tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary were >>>>>>>> false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    An ad-hominem with an unproven premise disqualifies your comment.
    Though an ad-hominem would disqualify it even if the premise were
    proven.

    You keep arguing on the basis of ignorance of proof
    theoretic semantics, like a kindergarten kid that
    says I just don't believe in algebra.

    You are the one who is like a kindergarten kid that says "I just
    don't believe in algebra". Instead of algebra, you just don't
    believe in logic.

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.
    --
    Mikko
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Damon@Richard@Damon-Family.org to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Apr 16 07:37:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/15/26 7:59 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 1:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 14/04/2026 16:50, olcott wrote:
    On 4/14/2026 12:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 13/04/2026 17:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/13/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 12/04/2026 16:22, olcott wrote:
    On 4/12/2026 4:32 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 11/04/2026 17:27, olcott wrote:
    On 4/11/2026 3:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 09/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote:
    On 4/9/2026 4:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 08/04/2026 14:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/8/2026 2:08 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 07/04/2026 17:49, olcott wrote:
    On 4/7/2026 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 06/04/2026 14:21, olcott wrote:
    On 4/6/2026 3:27 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 05/04/2026 14:25, olcott wrote:
    On 4/5/2026 2:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 04/04/2026 19:23, olcott wrote:
    On 4/4/2026 2:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 03/04/2026 16:35, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2026 2:13 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/04/2026 23:58, olcott wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be able to properly ground this in existing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundational
    peer reviewed papers will take some time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Do you think 100 years would be enough, or at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least some finite time?

    I have to carefully study at least a dozen papers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that may average 15 pages each. The basic notion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a "well founded justification tree" essentially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means the Proof Theoretic notion of reduction to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Canonical proof.


    % This sentence is not true.
    ?- LP = not(true(LP)).
    LP = not(true(LP)).
    ?- unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> false.


    The above Prolog determines that LP does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "well founded justification tree". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    If you want to illustrate with examples you should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have two examples:
    one with a negative result (as above) and one with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a positive one.
    So the above example should be paired with one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has someting
    else in place of not(provable(F, G)) so that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> result will not be
    false.


    THIS IS NOT A PROLOG SPECIFIC THING

    That's mainly true. However, in como.lang.prolog the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion should
    be restricted to Prolog specific things, in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case to the Prolog
    example above and the contrasting Prolog example not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet shown.


    In order to elaborate the details of my system >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I require some way to formalize natural language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Montague Grammar, Rudolf Carnap Meaning Postulates, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the CycL language of the Cyc project and Prolog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the options that I have been considering. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The notion of how a well-founded justification tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminates undecidability is a key element of my system. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prolog shows this best.

    It is not Prolog computable to determine whether a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sentence of Peano
    arithmetic has a well-founded justification tree in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peano arithmetic.

    A formal language similar to Prolog that can represent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the semantics of PA can be developed so that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it detects and rejects expressions that lack well-founded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justification trees.

    A language does not detect. For detection you need an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithm.

    unify_with_occurs_check(LP, not(true(LP))).
    is a function of the Prolog language that
    implements the algorithm.

    No, it is not. The question whether a sentence has a well- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> founded
    justification tree is a question about one thing so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs an
    algrotim that takes only one input but
    uunify_with_occurs_check
    takes two.

    The number of inputs does not matter.

    It certainly does. You can't use unify_with_occurs_check to >>>>>>>>>>>> determine
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded
    justification tree.


    [00] reCx
    -a-aroe
    -a-arooroCroCroCroCroC> [01] reCy
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [02] Equals
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [03] add (Left)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe >>>>>>>>>>> -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x-a <roE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y-a <ro+roCroE
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe (Shared
    Pointers)
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroC> [04] add (Right)-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roLroCroCroCroCroCroC> [06] y roCroy roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a roe
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a rooroCroCroCroCroCroC> [05] x roCroCroCroy
    There are no cycles in this tree

    Can we interprete this to mean that you admit that the predicate >>>>>>>>>> unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for determination whether >>>>>>>>>> reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification tree ? >>>>>>>>>
    My example was to merely prove that the Liar Paradox
    has never been anything besides incoherent nonsense.
    I showed this in an existing well understood logic
    programming language.

    I.e., yes, we can interprete your diagram to mean that you admit >>>>>>>> that
    the predicate unify_with_occurs_check is not useful for
    determination
    whether reCx reCy (x + y = y + x) has a well-founded justification >>>>>>>> tree.
    Consequently, you agree that your claims to the contrary were >>>>>>>> false.


    I started with the most salient case within
    the most well-known language that can prove
    my point. T^he above case if my own Minimal Type
    Theory.

    Olcott's Minimal Type Theory
    G rao -4Prov[PA](riLGriY)
    Directed Graph of evaluation sequence

    00 rao-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 01 02
    01 G
    02 -4-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 03
    03 Prov[PA]-a-a-a-a-a-a-a 04
    04 G||del_Number_of 01-a // cycle

    Nice to see that you don't disagree.

    When you understand proof theoretic semantics well
    enough then you understand that within the coherent
    foundation of PTS G||del 1931 Incompleteness becomes
    an instance of incoherent semantics.

    PTS is irrelevant to G|udel's incompleteness theorem, which is about
    formal logic, not about PTS.

    PTS replaces the foundation of model theory and this
    changes everything.

    Only for PTS. It changes nothing for those who use model theory.

    Likewise modern medicine changes nothing for
    those with the evil spirit theory of disease.

    But "Modern Medicine" accepts that it doesn't know how or why many
    things happen, and even accepts that Prayer and Faith can be valid
    complments to medical treatment.
    (see https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2802370/ for one such study)

    Your problem is that you don't understand what you are talking about,
    and thus treat "logic" to be just like the belief in something that you
    don't know about, perhaps because "logic" is just not comprehensible to you.


    But both are irrelevant to the incompleteness theorem, which is
    derived from logic and arithmetic with truth preserving inferences.




    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Thu Apr 16 07:52:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.


    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to sci.logic,sci.math,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Apr 17 09:52:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 16/04/2026 15:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.

    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    Does that "soon" mean less than 50 years ?

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.

    A good paper would not give any reason to think that the author may
    be stupid or ignorant.
    --
    Mikko
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to sci.logic,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.math on Fri Apr 17 09:34:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/17/2026 1:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 16/04/2026 15:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.

    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    Does that "soon" mean less than 50 years ?


    From one month until the end of Summer.
    I have three enormous construction projects
    on my house that also must be done in that
    same time-frame and my car just broke down
    again. Because I am very poor I must do all
    this work myself.

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.

    A good paper would not give any reason to think that the author may
    be stupid or ignorant.


    I am as a matter of objective fact a genius.
    The key thing that I have been missing is
    a succinct set of terms-of-the-art that refer
    to the exact meanings that I intend. Outside
    of PTS there is no such set of terms-of-the-art.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to sci.logic,comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.math on Sat Apr 18 12:19:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 17/04/2026 17:34, olcott wrote:
    On 4/17/2026 1:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 16/04/2026 15:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.

    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    Does that "soon" mean less than 50 years ?

    From one month until the end of Summer.
    I have three enormous construction projects
    on my house that also must be done in that
    same time-frame and my car just broke down
    again. Because I am very poor I must do all
    this work myself.

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.

    A good paper would not give any reason to think that the author may
    be stupid or ignorant.

    I am as a matter of objective fact a genius.
    The key thing that I have been missing is
    a succinct set of terms-of-the-art that refer
    to the exact meanings that I intend. Outside
    of PTS there is no such set of terms-of-the-art.

    In such situations it is best to work on problem you want to complete
    first, if possible. If somethen prevents working on that problme then
    on what you want to complete next.
    --
    Mikko
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@polcott333@gmail.com to comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic,sci.math,sci.math.symbolic on Sat Apr 18 08:28:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 4/18/2026 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 17/04/2026 17:34, olcott wrote:
    On 4/17/2026 1:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 16/04/2026 15:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it
    is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe
    that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it
    might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.

    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    Does that "soon" mean less than 50 years ?

    -aFrom one month until the end of Summer.
    I have three enormous construction projects
    on my house that also must be done in that
    same time-frame and my car just broke down
    again. Because I am very poor I must do all
    this work myself.

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.

    A good paper would not give any reason to think that the author may
    be stupid or ignorant.

    I am as a matter of objective fact a genius.
    The key thing that I have been missing is
    a succinct set of terms-of-the-art that refer
    to the exact meanings that I intend. Outside
    of PTS there is no such set of terms-of-the-art.

    In such situations it is best to work on problem you want to complete
    first, if possible. If somethen prevents working on that problme then
    on what you want to complete next.


    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined
    within ordinary Proof Theoretic Semantics.
    --
    Copyright 2026 Olcott

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined.

    This required establishing a new foundation
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@mikko.levanto@iki.fi to comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic,sci.math,sci.math.symbolic on Sun Apr 19 12:01:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.math

    On 18/04/2026 16:28, olcott wrote:
    On 4/18/2026 4:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 17/04/2026 17:34, olcott wrote:
    On 4/17/2026 1:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 16/04/2026 15:52, olcott wrote:
    On 4/16/2026 3:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 15/04/2026 15:02, olcott wrote:
    On 4/15/2026 2:07 AM, Mikko wrote:

    But it is indeed true that I don't believe in conclusions if it >>>>>>>> is not known whether the premises are true. And I don't believe >>>>>>>> that ad-hominem can be a part of a valid argument, although it >>>>>>>> might be a basis to reject a testimnoy.

    Like I said until you become an expert in
    proof theoretic semantics you will remain
    a clueless wonder.

    Not quite. I will remain a wonderer. You will remain clueless.

    It will soon be an easily verified fact that all
    my ideas have always been fully anchored in modern
    Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    Does that "soon" mean less than 50 years ?

    -aFrom one month until the end of Summer.
    I have three enormous construction projects
    on my house that also must be done in that
    same time-frame and my car just broke down
    again. Because I am very poor I must do all
    this work myself.

    I will write a new paper that specifically anchors
    each of my ideas point-by-point and item-by-item
    in direct quotes from foundational papers in Proof
    Theoretic Semantics. This is easy to do, yet takes
    time to get it exactly right.

    A good paper would not give any reason to think that the author may
    be stupid or ignorant.

    I am as a matter of objective fact a genius.
    The key thing that I have been missing is
    a succinct set of terms-of-the-art that refer
    to the exact meanings that I intend. Outside
    of PTS there is no such set of terms-of-the-art.

    In such situations it is best to work on problem you want to complete
    first, if possible. If somethen prevents working on that problme then
    on what you want to complete next.

    My 28 year goal has been to make
    "true on the basis of meaning expressed in language"
    reliably computable for the entire body of knowledge.
    The complete structure of this system is now defined
    within ordinary Proof Theoretic Semantics.

    You may still find some other goal more urgent, w.e., getting food
    to postpone starvation by one day.
    --
    Mikko
    --- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2