• Did Homo Erectus Have a (Vocal) Language?

    From Primum Sapienti@invalide@invalid.invalid to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Fri Jan 16 23:18:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang


    https://www.iflscience.com/did-homo-erectus-speak-almost-certainly-say-scientists-82250

    Of all the traits that set humans apart from the
    rest of the animal kingdom, language is arguably
    the most significant. Despite this, we still donrCOt
    know when the unique ability for symbolic verbal
    communication arose, although the authors of a new
    study suggest that one of our extinct ancestors may
    have already possessed the gift of the gab 2 million
    years ago.

    Homo erectus, the researchers say, possessed all the
    tools necessary for speech and language, building
    their argument around various lines of anatomical,
    genetic, and archaeological evidence. For instance,
    they explain that rCLHomo erectus was the first Homo
    species to have a greatly expanded brainrCY, adding
    that certain key regions like the frontal and parietal
    lobes were morphologically similar to those of modern
    humans.
    ...


    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8
    Did Homo Erectus Have a (Vocal) Language?

    Abstract
    After the humanrCochimpanzee split, the human-related
    lineage evolved into different species of Homo.
    However, only one of these species, or anatomically
    modern humans (AMHs), has survived, leading to what
    we are. A question of language evolution that has
    remained both appealing and controversial is whether
    AMHs were the first and only species of Homo to have
    a vocal language. Although there are viewpoints in
    favor of the emergence of such linguistic capability
    only in AMHs, or also in Neanderthals, this review
    argues for a much earlier emergence of it in Homo
    erectus by accumulating evidence from anatomy,
    genetics, archaeology, and social cooperation. The
    article ends with a discussion that defends the vocal
    hypothesis of language origin based on a critique of
    the gestural hypothesis.
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  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Sun Jan 18 01:47:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/17/26 1:18 AM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

    https://www.iflscience.com/did-homo-erectus-speak-almost-certainly-say- scientists-82250

    Of all the traits that set humans apart from the
    rest of the animal kingdom, language is arguably
    the most significant. Despite this, we still donrCOt
    know when the unique ability for symbolic verbal
    communication arose, although the authors of a new
    study suggest that one of our extinct ancestors may
    have already possessed the gift of the gab 2 million
    years ago.

    Academia is so corrupted by itself. The need for publication
    forces people to perform useless to near useless work,
    rehashing very old topics, just to get something in print.

    This is an example.

    Quite frankly, I have heard/seen far more people speculate
    on the language capacity of habilis than claim that nobody
    before AMH could speak.

    Even the definition of AMH is ridiculously fluid!

    Don't believe me? Google it. Find 50 year old cites on when
    so called "Moderns" began. Compare them to 40 year old cites,
    approximately, when they started throwing out number for
    "Mitochondrial Eve." Then Google & discover how much THAT
    number changed... and now they're up to, what? At least 300
    thousand years at this point?

    It's all bullshit.

    There's probably only been a single human "Species" from more
    than a million years already. They all interbred. And although
    you can argue that interbreeding is not a perfect test, it is
    the only real test we have. So we can base opinions on what we
    have or evidence that doesn't exist, and everyone is in a
    hurry to base it on evidence that doesn't exist.
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
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  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Sun Jan 18 02:29:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/17/2026 11:47 PM, JTEM wrote:
    On 1/17/26 1:18 AM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

    https://www.iflscience.com/did-homo-erectus-speak-almost-certainly-
    say- scientists-82250

    Of all the traits that set humans apart from the
    rest of the animal kingdom, language is arguably
    the most significant. Despite this, we still donrCOt
    know when the unique ability for symbolic verbal
    communication arose, although the authors of a new
    study suggest that one of our extinct ancestors may
    have already possessed the gift of the gab 2 million
    years ago.

    Academia is so corrupted by itself. The need for publication
    forces people to perform useless to near useless work,
    rehashing very old topics, just to get something in print.

    This is an example.

    Quite frankly, I have heard/seen far more people speculate
    on the language capacity of habilis than claim that nobody
    before AMH could speak.

    Even the definition of AMH is ridiculously fluid!

    Don't believe me?-a Google it. Find 50 year old cites on when
    so called "Moderns" began. Compare them to 40 year old cites,
    approximately, when they started throwing out number for
    "Mitochondrial Eve." Then Google & discover how much THAT
    number changed... and now they're up to, what? At least 300
    thousand years at this point?

    It's all bullshit.

    There's probably only been a single human "Species" from more
    than a million years already. They all interbred. And although
    you can argue that interbreeding is not a perfect test, it is
    the only real test we have. So we can base opinions on what we
    have or evidence that doesn't exist, and everyone is in a
    hurry to base it on evidence that doesn't exist.
    So the fact that scientific journals change their ideas and acceptable assumptions over the decades makes you think their contents are bull
    shit. Note that the same thing happens with publications in physics and mathematics. Engineers learn new things over time (new laws and
    revisions of old ones) and component densities and speeds improve exponentially over time. Physicist learn more and better models and
    every few years they add decimal points to the precision with which they
    can measure and predict the physical universe. And sometimes they learn
    enough to abandon (or readopt) old theories. The science of genetics
    changes a lot each year and its rapidly become scary good. If they clung
    to their old ideas, would you think they were wiser?

    If you want stability in your belief and knowledge system, stick with religion. You can go centuries with the silly ideas that way but then
    you are a fan of inbreeding and defense of patently false ideas. Most sciences, hard and soft evolve. If you want a good explanation of
    periods of stagnation I suggest you read Kuhn, Thomas S. (1962). The
    Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1st ed.). University of Chicago Press.

    The ideas you expressed above are fairly common and generally uttered by people who are not part of the scientific process and who usually have
    no appreciation for how to attack problems so tough they will not be
    solved in their lifetime, e.g., how long do you think it will be before
    we have a new solid enough theory of gravity to replace general
    relativity? It will likely be decades or maybe centuries? Don't you
    think that publication of well thought out ideas, experiments and
    proposals, and debates are worth while?
    --
    Jeff Barnett

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  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Sun Jan 18 14:35:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/18/26 4:29 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    So the fact that scientific journals change their ideas and acceptable assumptions over

    Journals don't have ideas.

    They're not people. Only people have ideas.

    I'm going to stop here, at the very first critical error, for
    reason that should be obvious to anyone familiar with the
    definition of "Critical."

    I'm just going to reiterate:

    #1. Academia imposes a need -- not a desire but a need -- to be
    published REGARDLESS of work, of findings.

    #2. To meet their requirements, and unable to achieve constant breakthroughs/discoveries, academics here rehash old stuff.

    #3. This nonsense about language is a very obvious example.
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
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  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Sun Jan 18 12:55:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/18/2026 12:35 PM, JTEM wrote:
    On 1/18/26 4:29 AM, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    So the fact that scientific journals change their ideas and acceptable
    assumptions over

    Journals don't have ideas.

    They're not people. Only people have ideas.

    I'm going to stop here, at the very first critical error, for
    reason that should be obvious to anyone familiar with the
    definition of "Critical."

    I'm just going to reiterate:

    #1. Academia imposes a need -- not a desire but a need -- to be
    published REGARDLESS of work, of findings.

    #2. To meet their requirements, and unable to achieve constant breakthroughs/discoveries, academics here rehash old stuff.

    #3. This nonsense about language is a very obvious example.
    Journals do, indeed "have opinions" and ideas. Different journals in
    similar ideas pursue and specialize in articles about different aspects
    and pursuits. I'm curious: Have you published much? If so, why don't you relate the experiences that went into the formulations of your opinions
    about the scientific publication process. If you have lived outside the process, from where did you get your ideas?

    And one more question: Do you know enough about evolutionary science, linguistics, and anthropology to substantiate your claims about a
    possibility in the early development of language or even sub-language
    skills? If so, share with us the source of that knowledge: school,
    independent in-depth study, research, part of a community pursuing
    knowledge in the area, some other path?? By the way, what specific facts
    in the article you criticize can you point out as wrong and why? Have
    you read the article, read a review of it (other than in Usenet), or
    know anyone who has?
    --
    Jeff Barnett

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  • From Tristan Wibberley@tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Mon Jan 19 15:28:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 18/01/2026 09:29, Jeff Barnett wrote:
    Don't you think that publication of well thought out ideas, experiments
    and proposals, and debates are worth while?

    Perhaps I will live to see it.
    --
    Tristan Wibberley

    The message body is Copyright (C) 2026 Tristan Wibberley except
    citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
    of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
    verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
    promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
    of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
    superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
    any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
    will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.

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  • From DDeden@user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Thu Jan 22 19:05:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang


    Primum Sapienti <invalide@invalid.invalid> posted:


    https://www.iflscience.com/did-homo-erectus-speak-almost-certainly-say-scientists-82250

    Of all the traits that set humans apart from the
    rest of the animal kingdom, language is arguably
    the most significant. Despite this, we still donrCOt
    know when the unique ability for symbolic verbal
    communication arose, although the authors of a new
    study suggest that one of our extinct ancestors may
    have already possessed the gift of the gab 2 million
    years ago.

    Homo erectus, the researchers say, possessed all the
    tools necessary for speech and language, building
    their argument around various lines of anatomical,
    genetic, and archaeological evidence. For instance,
    they explain that rCLHomo erectus was the first Homo
    species to have a greatly expanded brainrCY, adding
    that certain key regions like the frontal and parietal
    lobes were morphologically similar to those of modern
    humans.
    ...


    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13752-025-00521-8
    Did Homo Erectus Have a (Vocal) Language?

    Abstract
    After the humanrCochimpanzee split, the human-related
    lineage evolved into different species of Homo.
    However, only one of these species, or anatomically
    modern humans (AMHs), has survived, leading to what
    we are. A question of language evolution that has
    remained both appealing and controversial is whether
    AMHs were the first and only species of Homo to have
    a vocal language. Although there are viewpoints in
    favor of the emergence of such linguistic capability
    only in AMHs, or also in Neanderthals, this review
    argues for a much earlier emergence of it in Homo
    erectus by accumulating evidence from anatomy,
    genetics, archaeology, and social cooperation. The
    article ends with a discussion that defends the vocal
    hypothesis of language origin based on a critique of
    the gestural hypothesis.

    Thanks much, primum sapienti.

    All fossil and comparative evidence point to an absence of bilateral laryngeal airsacs in the common ancestor of hominoids and hominins. Airsacs developed as an antidote to arboreal hyperventilation occurring during dominance battles in the forest canopy, preventing dizzyness and potentially injurious falls.

    These airsacs prevent conversational vocal communication as in humans and extended singing as in humans and gibbons.

    Parsimoniously, simple speech developed gradually amongst hominins, initiated by the nesting change from arboreal bowl nests to terrestrial dome nests, the predecessor of the human dome huts still used by various hunting-gathering peoples (Inuit iglu, Mbuti mongolu, Khoisan huts).
    This protective 'dome-shield' dwelling enabled the survival of altricial infants over long childhoods, and encouraged vocal complexity between infants and parents in the dark interiors where gestures are not useful, and away from the harsh external climate of weather, predators and mosquitos and the adult social dominance battles found in other hominoids, where the youngsters tend to remain silent to avoid conflicts with antagonized belligerent adults.


    Homo erectus travelled the extent of the Old World, certainly made shelters, parsimoniously dome-shields, and probably used vocal language in monosyllables, possibly in a singsong tonal style.



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  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Thu Jan 22 16:11:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/18/26 2:55 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    And one more question: Do you know enough about

    Clearly you're not very bright, trying to make this about
    me INSTEAD OF THE ARTICLE POSTED RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR
    FUCKING FACE!

    Read it. Try to identify any & all NEW "evidence" it
    presents. When you fail, come back here and apologize...

    "Oh, you're right. This is nothing more than a rehashing
    of old business!"

    I don't give a shit how bad your narcissism is, I'm not
    going to play with you. If you want to discuss the topic,
    READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE. Copy & paste the "New Evidence"
    you think you see there.

    Now grow up, stop peeing sitting down and address what
    is being discussed or squat on another highway cone.

    And, oh; thanks in advance!
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
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  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Thu Jan 22 16:13:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/19/26 10:28 AM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:

    Perhaps I will live to see it.

    Perhaps I'll live to see you under the proper care,
    and taking the proper medication...

    Again: Read. The. Article.

    Copy & paste the exact words identify any & all
    *New* evidence. Not a new analysis of evidence but
    new evidence -- as if the likes of you could ever
    grasp the difference.

    HINT: There is no new evidence. It's just the "Same
    old same old."






    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Thu Jan 22 16:16:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/22/26 2:05 PM, DDeden wrote:

    All fossil and comparative evidence point to an absence of bilateral laryngeal airsacs in the common ancestor of hominoids and hominins.

    You do know the story is talking about erectus, don't you?

    Parsimoniously, simple speech developed gradually amongst hominins, initiated by the
    nesting change from arboreal bowl nests to terrestrial dome nests

    Oh, GAWD...
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From DDeden@user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Fri Jan 23 01:10:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang


    JTEM <jtem01@gmail.com> posted:

    On 1/22/26 2:05 PM, DDeden wrote:

    All fossil and comparative evidence point to an absence of bilateral laryngeal airsacs in the common ancestor of hominoids and hominins.

    You do know the story is talking about erectus, don't you?

    Parsimoniously, simple speech developed gradually amongst hominins, initiated by the
    nesting change from arboreal bowl nests to terrestrial dome nests

    Oh, GAWD...

    Oh, GOODY ... Newsgrouper allows me to block trolls here at Sci.Lang and at Sci.Anthropology.Paleo.
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  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to sci.anthropology.paleo,sci.lang on Thu Jan 22 22:37:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 1/22/26 8:10 PM, DDeden wrote:

    Oh, GOODY ... Newsgrouper allows me to block trolls

    The trolls going on & on & on about "dome nests" and using them
    as boats?

    What about the hang gliders? Did they turn their dome nests into
    those as well?

    ...assuming you believe that they lacked powered flight.
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/
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