• 16th century English writing

    From James Dow Allen@user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid to sci.lang on Mon Aug 24 05:37:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang


    English letters from the 16th century have unfamiliar spellings, nouns, etc.; and some verbs have different connotations ('suppose' might mean pretend, 'advertise' means inform). But my question is about basic grammar: word
    order, prepositions, conjunctive adverbs and run-on sentences.

    Did people really talk the way they wrote? The writings of Shakespeare
    are relatively easy for us to understand but it is a labor to try to
    understand correspondence.

    I'll give two examples. I did NOT search for particularly egregious examples. These were quoted (with spelling modernized) in present-day histories;
    and I then copied transcripts of the originals from Net sources. There
    are plenty of similar examples. Did letter writers deliberately choose
    flowery or over-complex writing?

    The first example is from a letter from Thomas Gresham to William Cecil;
    the 2nd from Edward de Vere (Oxenford) to the same Cecil.

    so it is that the Queue's Majestie ys indetted in Elandyrs for
    no small some ; for the wyche yow, my Lordc Mayro and the cytty, do
    stand bownd for the payment thereof.
    ... And for the aocomplyshment of the premises, the QueuerCOs
    Majestie dowthe requyre at your handes to pays in Elanders
    XX s. sterling upon every cloth that ys now shipped, after the
    rate of 25 s. flemysh for the pownd sterling ; and her highnes
    shall pays you here again at double usans.

    "... for the which ... thereof" -- either one connective or the other, not both?
    "at your hands ... after the rate" -- unusual prepositions?

    wherfore for thinge passed amis [=amiss] to repent them it is to late,
    to help them, (whiche I cannot but ease them that I am determined
    to hop [=hope] for any thinge I doo not, but ...

    Jumbled and run-on? As shown, the transcript contains a left parenthesis "("; there is no matching right parenthesis in the transcript.

    Comments?


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  • From ram@ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) to sci.lang on Mon Aug 24 09:08:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote or quoted:
    Did people really talk the way they wrote?

    | To understand spoken 16th-century English, historians bypass formal
    | literature and analyze texts that captured raw, unedited speech.
    | The best sources for spoken Early Modern English are court deposi-
    | tions, personal diaries, private letters, and phonetic handbooks.
    |
    | Court Depositions Witness testimonies from church and criminal
    | courts. Scribes recorded exact spoken words, insults, and slang.
    | These offer the closest look at everyday speech across social classes.
    |
    | Private Letters Unedited correspondence like the Paston or Plumpton
    | letters. Writers spelled words phonetically based on how they actually
    | pronounced them. This reveals regional accents and casual grammar.
    |
    | Phonetic Handbooks Guides written by 16th-century orthoepists
    | (spelling reformers). Books by scholars like John Hart and William
    | Bullokar deliberately described exact mouth movements and sounds.
    |
    | Comedy Plays Low-born character dialogue in theater. While still
    | scripted, comic relief scenes used authentic street slang, puns, and
    | vulgarities of the era.
    |
    | Grammar Books for Foreigners French and Italian learning manuals.
    | These books contained parallel dialogues showing foreigners how to
    | speak naturally in London shops and taverns.
    |
    | ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Source Type What it Reveals About Why It Outperforms
    | Speech Standard Written Text
    | --------------------- ----------------------- -----------------------
    | Court Records Slang, insults, and Avoids the polished,
    | grammar of the artificial rhetoric of
    | illiterate. published books.
    |
    | Phonetic Texts Exact vowel and Bypasses the chaotic,
    | consonant non-standardized
    | pronunciations. spelling of the era.
    |
    | Foreign Manuals Casual, everyday Avoids formal, rigid
    | conversational pacing. poetic structures like
    | iambic pentameter.
    | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    | 1. Court Depositions (Everyday Insults and Arguments)
    |
    | Scribes in church and local courts wrote down verbal disputes exactly
    | as spoken. These records show that 16th-century speech was heavily
    | filled with blunt phrases, scatological humor, and aggressive slang.
    |
    | The Insult "Thou art a cuckold, a long-legged cuckold, and thy wife
    | is a hackney whore."
    |
    | Context A defamation case revealing how neighbors spoke during a
    | street fight.
    |
    | Defying Authority "I don't care a fart for you. Bring the mayor to
    | me and I will fart in his mouth."
    |
    | Context A citizen recorded shouting at local officers, showcasing
    | that "fart" was the preferred casual profanity of the era.
    |
    | General Abuse "Thou art a scurvy, copper-nosed, fat-arsed knave."
    |
    | Context Common strings of compound adjectives used in daily
    | arguments.
    |
    | 2. Private Letters (Phonetic & Casual Writing)
    |
    | When regular people wrote private letters, they did not follow
    | strict printing standards. They spelled words exactly as they
    | pronounced them, revealing regional accents and a much more
    | fluid grammar.
    |
    | Merchant George Cely (Late 15th/Early 16th Century) "I padded the
    | way toward London . . . and it rynned so sore that I was wet to the
    | skin."
    |
    | Spoken feature "Rynned" shows they pronounced "rained" like "rin-
    | ned", and "sore" meant "severely".
    |
    | A Commoner's Note: "I pray you send me some money, for I have none
    | left, and I am in great need."
    |
    | Spoken feature Rather than the poetic "Methinks I require coin,"
    | everyday spoken phrasing was direct and structurally identical to
    | modern English.
    |
    | 3. Phonetic Handbooks (How the Sounds Actually Looked)
    |
    | Orthoepists like John Hart (1569) published guides using custom
    | phonetic spelling to fix what he called the "chaotic writing of our
    | English tongue". When transliterated back into standard letters, his
    | phonetic samples show how people talked.
    |
    | John Hart's Phonetic Sample: "We use as many letters in our writing,
    | as we do voices or breathes in speaking, and no more."
    |
    | How it was actually pronounced In Hart's phonetic system, "we" was
    | spoken and spelled as ui, "will" as uil, and "you" as iu. They did not
    | drop their Rs, and vowels were much shorter and punchier than modern
    | British English.
    |
    | 4. Foreign Language Manuals (Real Dialogue Mock-ups)
    |
    | Language books written to teach French or Italian travelers how to
    | survive in London provide realistic, scripted scripts of everyday
    | scenarios like ordering food or shopping.
    |
    | Claudius Holyband's The French Schoole-maister (1573):
    |
    | Customer "God give you good morrow, gossip."
    |
    | Shopkeeper: "And you also, back again. What do you lack? What is it
    | you please to have? See if I have any thing that may serve your turn."
    |
    | Customer: "Show me the best cloth that you have . . . No, this is too
    | coarse, show me a finer one."
    |
    | Spoken feature: This shows the rapid-fire repetition used by merchants
    | ("What do you lack? What is it you please to have?") and the highly
    | colloquial use of "gossip" to mean a close friend or neighbor.

    Lines marked with "| " come from my editing, where I start by writing
    prompts for the chatbot and then edit the generated texts and format
    them for USENET. Chatbots might make mistakes and misrepresent or hal-
    lucinate facts.


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  • From ram@ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) to sci.lang on Mon Aug 24 09:15:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
    | Spoken feature "Rynned" shows they pronounced "rained" like "rin-
    | ned", and "sore" meant "severely".

    I know "sore" from "It sore did me oppress." from "Lilly of the
    West", a traditional folk song. It's a cognate to the German "sehr".
    Both come from the Proto-Germanic "sairaz" - "painful," "sick," or
    "wounding".


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  • From Christian Weisgerber@naddy@mips.inka.de to sci.lang on Tue Aug 25 19:25:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.lang

    On 2026-08-24, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

    ... And for the aocomplyshment of the premises, the QueuerCOs
    Majestie dowthe requyre at your handes to pays in Elanders
    XX s. sterling upon every cloth that ys now shipped, after the
    rate of 25 s. flemysh for the pownd sterling ; and her highnes
    shall pays you here again at double usans.

    "at your hands ... after the rate" -- unusual prepositions?

    Relic use of "after" in the sense of "in accordance with" still
    exists: "He's a man _after_ my own heart." (Merriam-Webster)
    The OED should have more on it.

    Interestingly, German "nach", which is the typical translation for temporal~spatial "after", also has this meaning. Similary, French
    "d'apr|?s" from temporal~spatial "apr|?s".
    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
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