Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven.-a Same problem.-a Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue!-a (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
On 05/08/2026 02:09, Don Y wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven.-a Same problem.-a Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Why do you need heating in mid-summer when outside is already too hot?
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
There usually is but it is known only to their field engineers and consists of
some unlikely combination of keys all at once for a specific time period. Much
like resetting Android devices only cruder.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue!-a (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
They do that so that they can market after sales support contracts to the unlucky purchaser.
Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
A *service call* would generate income (and, bad feelings!).Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
On 8/5/2026 6:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
A *service call* would generate income (and, bad feelings!).Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
But, a call to "support" comes out of profits -- which is why
these avenues are increasingly automated.
Regardless, you don't want to be "known" for shitty products,
especially those with big price tags that are hard to just
"swap out" (like a major appliance)
On 8/5/26 03:09, Don Y wrote:It should alert the user to that "observation". If the
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven.-a Same problem.-a Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
so if you stick some big frozen thing in it so it doesn't heat up as fast as expected it should error out?
On 8/5/2026 6:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
A *service call* would generate income (and, bad feelings!).
But, a call to "support" comes out of profits -- which is why
these avenues are increasingly automated.
Regardless, you don't want to be "known" for shitty products,
especially those with big price tags that are hard to just
"swap out" (like a major appliance)
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
On 05/08/2026 14:19, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2026 6:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
A *service call* would generate income (and, bad feelings!).
Customers were usually very keen to get it back working again.
But, a call to "support" comes out of profits -- which is why
these avenues are increasingly automated.
Or pass you from pillar to post in the hope that you will give up.
Regardless, you don't want to be "known" for shitty products,
especially those with big price tags that are hard to just
"swap out" (like a major appliance)
Ovens used to be huge immovable objects with insane power requirements permanently wired into a fat cable on their own circuit. But a modern combi microwave can easily run off a 13A socket no problems.
Much better insulation, recirculating the hot air, good airtight seals and double glazing makes a big difference and you can use any combo of grill, oven
microwave to get the desired cooking effect.
Air fryers are all the rage over here in the UK with even lower power requirements and work pretty well.
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics. Especially for cheap electronics.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please>wrote:
On 8/5/26 15:19, Don Y wrote:
On 8/5/2026 6:03 AM, Don Y wrote:
A *service call* would generate income (and, bad feelings!).Our customer care department was a huge profit centre in its own right.
But, a call to "support" comes out of profits -- which is why
these avenues are increasingly automated.
Regardless, you don't want to be "known" for shitty products,
especially those with big price tags that are hard to just
"swap out" (like a major appliance)
Kitchen appliances should be simple. Our oven has a electro-
mechanical clock and a bimetal thermostat. It is used daily
and has been going for 43 years. You'd be lucky to get even
a third of that with a modern 'smart' appliance.
And in practice, we always run the same program, so what good
are the smarts?
Our first dishwasher, 1980's issue, lasted twenty years. Our
newest electronic marvel, barely five years old, has needed
repairs twice already. Each new one seems to have a shorter
lifespan than the one that came before it.
Jeroen Belleman
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
If the igniters don't work, you kitchen can fill up with unburnt gas and >turn into a fuel-air bomb.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you
can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
Or damp or greasy. Where is that?
There are people cooking with 100-year-old gas stoves. In fact I've
seen them on sale. No electronics in a stove is going to last even 50
years, and good luck fixing it.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
If the igniters don't work, you kitchen can fill up with unburnt gas and
turn into a fuel-air bomb.
There is a procedure that I will reveal for the first time here:
Turn on the gas
Light the burner
Cook
Turn off the gas.
That works with electronic igniters or with matches.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you
can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
"The gas leak was determined to have been caused by a cracked nut
connecting the building's gas line to Hodge's stove, which was
believed to have cracked due to being overtightened at the time of installation."
On 6/08/2026 11:54 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>> wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
Or damp or greasy. Where is that?
There are people cooking with 100-year-old gas stoves. In fact I've
seen them on sale. No electronics in a stove is going to last even 50
years, and good luck fixing it.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
If the igniters don't work, you kitchen can fill up with unburnt gas and >>> turn into a fuel-air bomb.
There is a procedure that I will reveal for the first time here:
Turn on the gas
Light the burner
Cook
Turn off the gas.
And the Ronan Point disaster happened because Ivy Hodge hadn't been able
to turn off the gas, though she had every reason to believe that it
hadn't been turned on until she tried to light it
That works with electronic igniters or with matches.
Unless something has gone wrong, as it did at Ronan Point.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you >>> can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
"The gas leak was determined to have been caused by a cracked nut
connecting the building's gas line to Hodge's stove, which was
believed to have cracked due to being overtightened at the time of
installation."
In California you could have invoked an earthquake. Disasters happen
despite well-thought-out procedures set up by people who were a bit
short on imagination.
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 00:38:07 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 11:54 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
Right. Shoddy construction and bad plumbing. Not a stove valve
problem.
We have friends moving in together (cute couple) and smell gas in
their new apartment. I sent them your Ronan Point link, to show the
landlord.
There is usually a corrugated flex pipe between the wall and the back
of the stove. Older ones are notorious for cracking and leaking.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you >>>> can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
"The gas leak was determined to have been caused by a cracked nut
connecting the building's gas line to Hodge's stove, which was
believed to have cracked due to being overtightened at the time of
installation."
In California you could have invoked an earthquake. Disasters happen
despite well-thought-out procedures set up by people who were a bit
short on imagination.
We didn't have many (or any?) gas explosions in the 1989 quake. The
big killer in East Bay was the stupid stacked freeway that collapsed
and squashed cars on the lower deck. In San Francisco, most people
were killed by falling bricks. A section of the Bay Bridge fell out
too.
My old Victorian was built in 1892 so survived 1906 and 1989. We had
cracks in some lath and plaster walls, and a brick chimney broke up.
On 7/08/2026 1:51 am, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 00:38:07 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 11:54 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
<snip>
Right. Shoddy construction and bad plumbing. Not a stove valve
problem.
The construction wasn't seen as "shoddy" when the building was put up -
the gas explosion did expose a weakness in the design concept.
And over-tightening a connecting nut is bad workmanship, not bad plumbing.
The problem with gas stoves isn't in the valves, but in the concept of >delivering gas to a kitchen where it can accumulate without getting
burnt until you have a fuel-air bomb.
We have friends moving in together (cute couple) and smell gas in
their new apartment. I sent them your Ronan Point link, to show the
landlord.
They didn't smell gas - we don't have receptors for the combustible >components of petroleum gas. What they smelled was tertiary butyl
mercaptan whose odour we can detect in quite low concentrations, which
is added gas supplies to make leakage detectable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Butylthiol
The wikipedia article doesn't mention that skunks use the odour as a >defensive weapon.
There is usually a corrugated flex pipe between the wall and the back
of the stove. Older ones are notorious for cracking and leaking.
There are better ways of accommodating movement between the wall and the >stove. A loop of copper pipe can accommodate quite a lot, but copper
pipe is priced by length. Thin-walled bellows incorporate less copper,
which makes them cheaper.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you >>>>> can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
"The gas leak was determined to have been caused by a cracked nut
connecting the building's gas line to Hodge's stove, which was
believed to have cracked due to being overtightened at the time of
installation."
In California you could have invoked an earthquake. Disasters happen
despite well-thought-out procedures set up by people who were a bit
short on imagination.
We didn't have many (or any?) gas explosions in the 1989 quake. The
big killer in East Bay was the stupid stacked freeway that collapsed
and squashed cars on the lower deck. In San Francisco, most people
were killed by falling bricks. A section of the Bay Bridge fell out
too.
My old Victorian was built in 1892 so survived 1906 and 1989. We had
cracks in some lath and plaster walls, and a brick chimney broke up.
But the gas pipes survived untouched? Lucky you.
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 15:44:43 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 7/08/2026 1:51 am, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 00:38:07 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 11:54 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
<snip>
Right. Shoddy construction and bad plumbing. Not a stove valve
problem.
The construction wasn't seen as "shoddy" when the building was put up -
the gas explosion did expose a weakness in the design concept.
And over-tightening a connecting nut is bad workmanship, not bad plumbing. >>
The problem with gas stoves isn't in the valves, but in the concept of
delivering gas to a kitchen where it can accumulate without getting
burnt until you have a fuel-air bomb.
We have friends moving in together (cute couple) and smell gas in
their new apartment. I sent them your Ronan Point link, to show the
landlord.
They didn't smell gas - we don't have receptors for the combustible
components of petroleum gas. What they smelled was tertiary butyl
mercaptan whose odour we can detect in quite low concentrations, which
is added gas supplies to make leakage detectable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Butylthiol
The wikipedia article doesn't mention that skunks use the odour as a
defensive weapon.
PG&E sells us "gas" and we can smell it.
There is usually a corrugated flex pipe between the wall and the back
of the stove. Older ones are notorious for cracking and leaking.
There are better ways of accommodating movement between the wall and the
stove. A loop of copper pipe can accommodate quite a lot, but copper
pipe is priced by length. Thin-walled bellows incorporate less copper,
which makes them cheaper.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you >>>>>> can kill a few people. It has happened."The gas leak was determined to have been caused by a cracked nut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected. >>>>>
connecting the building's gas line to Hodge's stove, which was
believed to have cracked due to being overtightened at the time of
installation."
In California you could have invoked an earthquake. Disasters happen
despite well-thought-out procedures set up by people who were a bit
short on imagination.
We didn't have many (or any?) gas explosions in the 1989 quake. The
big killer in East Bay was the stupid stacked freeway that collapsed
and squashed cars on the lower deck. In San Francisco, most people
were killed by falling bricks. A section of the Bay Bridge fell out
too.
My old Victorian was built in 1892 so survived 1906 and 1989. We had
cracks in some lath and plaster walls, and a brick chimney broke up.
But the gas pipes survived untouched? Lucky you.
I've always been lucky. How about you?
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 15:44:43 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 7/08/2026 1:51 am, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 00:38:07 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 11:54 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
<snip>
Right. Shoddy construction and bad plumbing. Not a stove valve
problem.
The construction wasn't seen as "shoddy" when the building was put up -
the gas explosion did expose a weakness in the design concept.
And over-tightening a connecting nut is bad workmanship, not bad plumbing. >>
The problem with gas stoves isn't in the valves, but in the concept of
delivering gas to a kitchen where it can accumulate without getting
burnt until you have a fuel-air bomb.
We have friends moving in together (cute couple) and smell gas in
their new apartment. I sent them your Ronan Point link, to show the
landlord.
They didn't smell gas - we don't have receptors for the combustible
components of petroleum gas. What they smelled was tertiary butyl
mercaptan whose odour we can detect in quite low concentrations, which
is added gas supplies to make leakage detectable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Butylthiol
The wikipedia article doesn't mention that skunks use the odour as a
defensive weapon.
PG&E sells us "gas" and we can smell it.
You've lost a phase.
Your circuit breaker has gone bad, or your receptacle at
the oven location has gone bad. It could be other things such as a rodent chewed through half the cable between the panel and the oven, double pole tstat
switch has failed on passing a single phase, etc. lots of possibilities.
It is possible to overstress the CB without making it trip, accelerating its failure eventually.
AI:
The National Electrical Code (NEC) governs the sizing of wiring and circuit protection for household electric ranges primarily under NEC Article 220 (Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Load Calculations) and NEC Article 210 (Branch Circuits).Unlike many other major appliances, the NEC does not treat a
household electric range as a continuous load, nor does it require wiring to handle 100% of its total maximum nameplate kilowatt (kW) capacity. Instead, the
code implements a demand factor system because a standard household range rarely operates all burners and the oven simultaneously at maximum power.
For standard household electric ranges, the minimum circuit and wire size are
calculated using the demand factors in NEC Table 220.55 (often referred to as
Column C for standard ranges).1. Ranges Rated Between 8.75 kW and 12 kWFor any
single household range rated between 8.75 kW and 12 kW full capacity, the NEC
sets a fixed demand load of 8 kW.You do not calculate based on 12 kW; you calculate based on 8 kW.Amperage Calculation: 8,000 Watts |a-+ 240 Volts = 33.33
Amps.2. Ranges Rated Over 12 kWIf a range exceeds 12 kW, the demand load increases by 5% for every additional kW (or major fraction thereof) above 12 kW.
On 05/08/2026 14:19, Don Y wrote: ||[. . .] |
On 8/5/2026 6:03 AM, Don Y wrote: |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|But, a call to "support" comes out of profits -- which is why ||
these avenues are increasingly automated. |
Or pass you from pillar to post in the hope that you will give up."|
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven.-a Same problem.-a Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue!-a (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
If the igniters don't work, you kitchen can fill up with unburnt gas and turn into a fuel-air bomb.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and you
can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
Or damp or greasy. Where is that?
There are people cooking with 100-year-old gas stoves. In fact I've
seen them on sale. No electronics in a stove is going to last even 50
years, and good luck fixing it.
On 2026-08-06 01:43, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven.-a Same problem.-a Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue!-a (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
We have gas stoves with knobs turning gas valves.
They have electronic igniters (which cause troubles now and then) but
you can unplug that and use a match.
If the igniters don't work, you kitchen can fill up with unburnt gas
and turn into a fuel-air bomb.
If properly designed, only a small pilot flame can be ignited. Then when
the probe is hot, the big flame is activated.
For instance, on my kitchen, I have to turn the gas knob and keep it
pushed so that gas comes out and the igniter works. If I release the
knob, both are out. When the flame starts, it heats a passive "sensor"
that activates the gas valve and I can release the knob.
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and
you can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
Why didn't she smell the gas?
The ony stupid thing is that you do not limit line lengh in your babble to >about 80 characters.
On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 06:54:22 -0700, john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>wrote:Best I can offer in rebuttle is 50 year old electric ranges that
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>> wrote:
Stove isn't heating (well, not enough).
Doesn't notice that the temperature isn't increasing after
many minutes, despite knowing that *it* has commanded heat.
Switch to other oven. Same problem. Both considerably above
ambient so we know something is MAKING heat!
Lots of "error codes" in the service manual... you'd
think there would be one for "I'm confused -- what I am
observing of my activities don't correlate with my
expectations...."?
Or, a means of "resetting" it -- other than pulling
the breaker.
You'd think the *engineer(s)* responsible for the implementation
would at least have considered such an issue! (one can make
allowances for a marketing/sales droid not understanding
"sciencey stuff")
Error codes? A stove is the worst imaginable place for electronics.
Especially for cheap electronics.
Not if you put the electronics where they won't get hot.
Or damp or greasy. Where is that?
There are people cooking with 100-year-old gas stoves. In fact I've
seen them on sale. No electronics in a stove is going to last even 50 >>years, and good luck fixing it.
still work, including the squirrel cage clock/timer.
Made locally in a plant that shut down decads ago, during the
first 'free trade' fiasco. Profitable, but bought up and shut down
by its cross-border competitors.
It's high temperature electrical contacts that wear out in these
things, or anything relying on cleaning. The latter is also the
bain of gas ranges and the reason most domestic cooks (without
cheap help) push for electric, 'self-cleaning' oven ranges.
Modern gas stoves are just as bad, w/r to electronics.
RL
If properly designed, only a small pilot flame can be ignited. Then when the probe is hot, the big flame is activated.
For instance, on my kitchen, I have to turn the gas knob and keep it pushed soUgh! Knobs! Things I don't miss about gas is the lack of precise
that gas comes out and the igniter works. If I release the knob, both are out.
When the flame starts, it heats a passive "sensor" that activates the gas valve
and I can release the knob.
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 07:56:13 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 06:54:22 -0700, john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
Most of the old electric ranges that I've seen have at least one
broken heater element. Temperature cycling to read heat is stressful.
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
On 8/8/2026 12:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
If properly designed, only a small pilot flame can be ignited. Then
when the probe is hot, the big flame is activated.
Our furnace uses a hot plate igniter (previous one used a spark igniter). Temperature sensors then verify the gas is ignited (by sensing the heat)
and allow the gas flow to continue.
A flaw in this approach is that it requires a particular minimum fuel (gas) flow to ensure enough "heat" is generated in a short enough time to trip
the
sensors.
We had a city-wide problem with gas (supply) pressure some years back.
The furnace would ignite (flame visible).-a Run for a few moments and
then self-extinguish.-a Doing so continuously (venting the combustion
chamber each time to ensure no buildup of "unburnt" gas).
[Yet another "stupid designer" issue -- how manytimes do you repeat this process before concluding that something is "broken" (gas supply in our
case but a temperature sensor would also qualify) and requiring manual intervention/acknowledgement?]
For instance, on my kitchen, I have to turn the gas knob and keep itUgh!-a Knobs!-a Things I don't miss about gas is the lack of precise temperature control and the unevenness of heat across the cooking surface/volume!
pushed so that gas comes out and the igniter works. If I release the
knob, both are out. When the flame starts, it heats a passive "sensor"
that activates the gas valve and I can release the knob.
Making "red sauce" was always a chore as you couldn't get a gas flame
*low* enough without also reducing the "area of impact" on a stovetop
pot (I make sauce in 16 qt batches in a pot that is 15" in diameter;
I want a very low heat ACROSS THAT ENTIRE AREA -- not confined to a tiny
spot that causes the contents immediately above to BURN while the rest
stays cold).-a I'd have to stand over the pot for the entire 12-16 hour period.
Likewise, my baking is "set it and forget it" as I know the entire stove
will be at the temperature specified as the heating elements distribute
the heat over a larger area.-a No more "checking to see if done"!-a Friends express frustration that they can't reproduce the items they've sampled
while visiting -- despite my precise instructions!
It's also nice NOT to have to vent the kitchen to avoid the byproducts
of gas combustion.-a All that conditioned air being forcefully exhausted...
I *do* miss being able to boil a pot of water for pasta "quickly".
Though the 3KW burners invariably have to be "turned down" once
the water does reach a boil.-a (everything else that we make on the
stovetop enjoys the advantage of that uniform heat over a larger area
as the burners can be controlled to the (three) specific sizes of
the pots/pans that are currently present.
[We've learned to use an electric kettle to boil the water for our
tea and coffee; being "sealed", it seems to do the trick quickly
and eliminates wear-and-tear on the stovetop -- I can replace a
kettle for $20]
Oh, and cleanup is *so* much easier -- no nooks and crannies to worry
about!
And, the oven can be quickly "steam cleaned" by pouring a cup of water
*in* it
that it boils off.-a That, to avoid the more thorough (high temperature) "self clean" cycle.
Now, if they would bring back the "contact sensors" that used to control--
the stovetop elements "closed loop" (and heated butter compartments),
things would be ideal!
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 06:44:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
The ony stupid thing is that you do not limit line lengh in your babble to >>about 80 characters.
Set your newsreader to word wrap.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
Expensive to buy, but cheap to run. Very nice to use, instant response.
My previous one died (one ring out of two died) after about 10 years.
Not a very reliable brand, they told me. Repair was possible (replace
the module) but very expensive.
[Yet another "stupid designer" issue -- how manytimes do you repeat this
process before concluding that something is "broken" (gas supply in our
case but a temperature sensor would also qualify) and requiring manual
intervention/acknowledgement?]
These things have very limited intelligence.
Likewise, my baking is "set it and forget it" as I know the entire stove
will be at the temperature specified as the heating elements distribute
the heat over a larger area.-a No more "checking to see if done"!-a Friends >> express frustration that they can't reproduce the items they've sampled
while visiting -- despite my precise instructions!
It's also nice NOT to have to vent the kitchen to avoid the byproducts
of gas combustion.-a All that conditioned air being forcefully exhausted...
I tried some years ago (10?) to get a gas oven when the old kitchen thing died.
I found none. Maybe one.
I *do* miss being able to boil a pot of water for pasta "quickly".
Change to induction heaters :-)
Oh, and cleanup is *so* much easier -- no nooks and crannies to worry about! >>
And, the oven can be quickly "steam cleaned" by pouring a cup of water *in* it
that it boils off.-a That, to avoid the more thorough (high temperature)
"self clean" cycle.
Interesting.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
Expensive to buy, but cheap to run. Very nice to use, instant response.
My previous one died (one ring out of two died) after about 10 years.
Not a very reliable brand, they told me. Repair was possible (replace
the module) but very expensive.
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
Microwaves are OK,
As long as the shielding is OK and you keep some distance.
Have a nice detector for leakage.
On 8/8/2026 10:41 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[Yet another "stupid designer" issue -- how manytimes do you repeat this >>> process before concluding that something is "broken" (gas supply in our
case but a temperature sensor would also qualify) and requiring manual
intervention/acknowledgement?]
These things have very limited intelligence.
Old furnace had a PIC to run the logic.-a Adding a counter to the
"loop" wouldn't have been too difficult.-a "Press to reset..."
Likewise, my baking is "set it and forget it" as I know the entire stove >>> will be at the temperature specified as the heating elements distribute
the heat over a larger area.-a No more "checking to see if done"!
Friends
express frustration that they can't reproduce the items they've sampled
while visiting -- despite my precise instructions!
It's also nice NOT to have to vent the kitchen to avoid the byproducts
of gas combustion.-a All that conditioned air being forcefully
exhausted...
I tried some years ago (10?) to get a gas oven when the old kitchen
thing died. I found none. Maybe one.
Gas was great when I was a kid -- two temperature settings:-a OFF & HI.
Now, I tend to cook more at lower temperatures to give flavors a
chance to develop.
E.g., making pan-fried Wahoo, today.-a The pan has to be hot enough to
cook it quickly -- but not so hot that the marinade splatters all over
the place (and the meat is toughened).-a Selecting the heating element
that fits the size of the pan ensures the entire pan comes to the same temperature at the same time.
I *do* miss being able to boil a pot of water for pasta "quickly".
Change to induction heaters :-)
We looked at them when we bought this stove.-a Some had limitations
as to how many heating elements could be active at a given
time (I think they multiplex the electronics).
And, requires specific types of cookware.
When I was in school (gas oven/stovetop), my cooking habits--
relied on the intense heat from the gas.-a My mother used to
exclaim that I used way too much water to make pasta (to
be fair, I did!-a But, it didn't take that much longer to
boil it over gas...)
I use far less, now, dictated by the specific pasta being boiled
(e.g., fusilli col bucco lunghi takes an inordinate amount
while pastina takes nothing!).-a I'm also smarter about HOW things
are prepared so everything is ready at the same instant!
Oh, and cleanup is *so* much easier -- no nooks and crannies to worry
about!
And, the oven can be quickly "steam cleaned" by pouring a cup of
water *in* it
that it boils off.-a That, to avoid the more thorough (high temperature) >>> "self clean" cycle.
Interesting.
Delightful!-a It doesn't tie up the oven for more than half an hour
and, so, can be done often to *keep* the oven clean.-a Less need for
the "real" self-cleaning cycle and the time it requires.
If I could get "active DE-heating", things would be even more
convenient (many Rxs need to be cooled at deliberate rates
to avoid falling, etc.)
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 06:44:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
The ony stupid thing is that you do not limit line lengh in your babble to >>>about 80 characters.
Set your newsreader to word wrap.
Not all Usenet readers supoort that
And it also means the original poopster eeeh poster is an idiot to use 1024 >or more characters per line.
Many posters here are obviously AI now and have no clue, or as much as their >bosses.
Google / duckduckgo.com search will confirm this:N++
savetz.com
https://www.savetz.com rC| yic rC| YIC05FI_15.html
What should I know about Usenet "netiquette" before posting?
If you are posting to one of the top-level hierarchies,
your message will find its way to an audience of more than three million >potential readers.
Keep the your message at or under 72 characters per line.
Not everyone uses the 80-column by 25-row text that you may be accustomed to, >so shorter lines mean ...
On 8/08/2026 11:49 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 07:56:13 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 06:54:22 -0700, john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
<snip>
Most of the old electric ranges that I've seen have at least one
broken heater element. Temperature cycling to read heat is stressful.
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
My younger brother has one - actually a double-width induction cook-top
on top of a double oven. He was pretty well off even before he got the
job of organising the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000, and his wife likes >entertaining (and they have five kids and thirteen grand-kids to
entertain these day)s.
I used it for a couple of weeks when I house sat there while he was away
and my wife was running a course at one of the Sydney Universities. It >worked fine then - I found it very easy to use - and it was still
working fine the last time I had dinner in his house - less than a year ago.
Perhaps a bit out of your reach, but nice if you have that kind of money.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
Expensive to buy, but cheap to run. Very nice to use, instant response.
My previous one died (one ring out of two died) after about 10 years.
Not a very reliable brand, they told me. Repair was possible (replace
the module) but very expensive.
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
Microwaves are OK,
As long as the shielding is OK and you keep some distance.
Have a nice detector for leakage.
On 8/8/2026 10:41 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[Yet another "stupid designer" issue -- how manytimes do you repeat this >>> process before concluding that something is "broken" (gas supply in our
case but a temperature sensor would also qualify) and requiring manual
intervention/acknowledgement?]
These things have very limited intelligence.
Old furnace had a PIC to run the logic. Adding a counter to the
"loop" wouldn't have been too difficult. "Press to reset..."
Likewise, my baking is "set it and forget it" as I know the entire stove >>> will be at the temperature specified as the heating elements distributeI tried some years ago (10?) to get a gas oven when the old kitchen thing died.
the heat over a larger area.a No more "checking to see if done"!a Friends >>> express frustration that they can't reproduce the items they've sampled
while visiting -- despite my precise instructions!
It's also nice NOT to have to vent the kitchen to avoid the byproducts
of gas combustion.a All that conditioned air being forcefully exhausted... >>
I found none. Maybe one.
Gas was great when I was a kid -- two temperature settings: OFF & HI.
Now, I tend to cook more at lower temperatures to give flavors a
chance to develop.
E.g., making pan-fried Wahoo, today. The pan has to be hot enough to
cook it quickly -- but not so hot that the marinade splatters all over
the place (and the meat is toughened). Selecting the heating element
that fits the size of the pan ensures the entire pan comes to the same >temperature at the same time.
I *do* miss being able to boil a pot of water for pasta "quickly".
Change to induction heaters :-)
We looked at them when we bought this stove. Some had limitations
as to how many heating elements could be active at a given
time (I think they multiplex the electronics).
And, requires specific types of cookware.
When I was in school (gas oven/stovetop), my cooking habits
relied on the intense heat from the gas. My mother used to
exclaim that I used way too much water to make pasta (to
be fair, I did! But, it didn't take that much longer to
boil it over gas...)
I use far less, now, dictated by the specific pasta being boiled
(e.g., fusilli col bucco lunghi takes an inordinate amount
while pastina takes nothing!). I'm also smarter about HOW things
are prepared so everything is ready at the same instant!
Oh, and cleanup is *so* much easier -- no nooks and crannies to worry about!
And, the oven can be quickly "steam cleaned" by pouring a cup of water *in* it
that it boils off.a That, to avoid the more thorough (high temperature)
"self clean" cycle.
Interesting.
Delightful! It doesn't tie up the oven for more than half an hour
and, so, can be done often to *keep* the oven clean. Less need for
the "real" self-cleaning cycle and the time it requires.
If I could get "active DE-heating", things would be even more
convenient (many Rxs need to be cooled at deliberate rates
to avoid falling, etc.)
Likewise, my baking is "set it and forget it" as I know the entire stove >>>> will be at the temperature specified as the heating elements distribute >>>> the heat over a larger area.-a No more "checking to see if done"! Friends >>>> express frustration that they can't reproduce the items they've sampled >>>> while visiting -- despite my precise instructions!
It's also nice NOT to have to vent the kitchen to avoid the byproducts >>>> of gas combustion.-a All that conditioned air being forcefully exhausted...
I tried some years ago (10?) to get a gas oven when the old kitchen thing >>> died. I found none. Maybe one.
Gas was great when I was a kid -- two temperature settings:-a OFF & HI.
Now, I tend to cook more at lower temperatures to give flavors a
chance to develop.
My previous gas cooker, actually my mother's, had a slider to adjust a thermostat on the oven, going from 1 to 9.
E.g., making pan-fried Wahoo, today.-a The pan has to be hot enough to
cook it quickly -- but not so hot that the marinade splatters all over
the place (and the meat is toughened).-a Selecting the heating element
that fits the size of the pan ensures the entire pan comes to the same
temperature at the same time.
I *do* miss being able to boil a pot of water for pasta "quickly".
Change to induction heaters :-)
We looked at them when we bought this stove.-a Some had limitations
as to how many heating elements could be active at a given
time (I think they multiplex the electronics).
Depends on the brand... some they are configurable, set the maximum electric power of the entire thing, so as not to blow a fuse. Here the companies charge
for the maximum power of the house, so except rich people we contract the minimum we can. So 3450 watts for a flat is typical. Next one is 4600.
And, requires specific types of cookware.
True, but today probably everything they sell is suitable.
On 2026-08-08 20:14, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
No idea why that would be.
On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 21:52:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-08-08 20:14, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
No idea why that would be.
Consumer induction hot plates operate between 25 - 50 KHz. You can
see it on a spectrum analyzer or SDR (software defined radio)
receiver:
"Induction cooker interference" ><https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Induction_cooker_interference>
Some induction cookers drop below 25 KHz, which can be heard by some
children and people with unusually sensitive hearing:
"My new Wolf induction cook top is unusable because of the
high-frequency screaming" ><https://www.reddit.com/r/Appliances/comments/128lc8u/my_new_wolf_induction_cooktop_is_unusable_because/>
(Click on "read more").
Some people are allegedly "electrosensitive":--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
"Electromagnetic hypersensitivity" ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity>
The problem seems to be sufficiently common to support an industry:
"RF Protection Apparel" ><https://www.emrss.com/collections/woremor-emf-5g-shielding-clothing>
"EMF shielding clothing" ><https://www.google.com/search?q=EMF+shielding+clothing&udm=2>
"Tin foil hats:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=tin+foil+hats&udm=2>
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 16:16:13 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 21:52:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-08-08 20:14, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
No idea why that would be.
Consumer induction hot plates operate between 25 - 50 KHz. You can
see it on a spectrum analyzer or SDR (software defined radio)
receiver:
"Induction cooker interference" >><https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Induction_cooker_interference>
Some induction cookers drop below 25 KHz, which can be heard by some >>children and people with unusually sensitive hearing:
"My new Wolf induction cook top is unusable because of the
high-frequency screaming" >><https://www.reddit.com/r/Appliances/comments/128lc8u/my_new_wolf_induction_cooktop_is_unusable_because/>
(Click on "read more").
I bet that this is the reason. In my youth, I could hear 20 KHz. My
wife still can.
Back in Baltimore in the 1970s, there was a local big-box Drugstore
that left their ultrasonic motion detector burglar alarm system on
standby, and a girlfriend complained that the place made here
depressed. I was skeptical, but agreed to go to that store. It
depressed me too. Turned out we sensed the 26 KHz howl as pressure,
and effect I had experienced in my own home lab. I went to the store >manager, who was also skeptical, and I pointed out this could be
costing them sales. Don't know what happened, but they turned the
alarm system off during business hours, and the depression lifted.
Joe
Some people are allegedly "electrosensitive":
"Electromagnetic hypersensitivity" >><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity>
The problem seems to be sufficiently common to support an industry:
"RF Protection Apparel" >><https://www.emrss.com/collections/woremor-emf-5g-shielding-clothing>
"EMF shielding clothing" >><https://www.google.com/search?q=EMF+shielding+clothing&udm=2>
"Tin foil hats:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=tin+foil+hats&udm=2>
"My new Wolf induction cook top is unusable because of the
high-frequency screaming"
<https://www.reddit.com/r/Appliances/comments/128lc8u/my_new_wolf_induction_cooktop_is_unusable_because/>
(Click on "read more").
I bet that this is the reason. In my youth, I could hear 20 KHz. My
wife still can.
Back in Baltimore in the 1970s, there was a local big-box DrugstoreA colleague in school doubted my ability to hear these things.
that left their ultrasonic motion detector burglar alarm system on
standby, and a girlfriend complained that the place made here
depressed. I was skeptical, but agreed to go to that store. It
depressed me too. Turned out we sensed the 26 KHz howl as pressure,
and effect I had experienced in my own home lab. I went to the store manager, who was also skeptical, and I pointed out this could be
costing them sales. Don't know what happened, but they turned the
alarm system off during business hours, and the depression lifted.
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:10:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 06:44:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:
The ony stupid thing is that you do not limit line lengh in your babble to >>>>about 80 characters.
Set your newsreader to word wrap.
Not all Usenet readers supoort that
And it also means the original poopster eeeh poster is an idiot to use 1024 >>or more characters per line.
Many posters here are obviously AI now and have no clue, or as much as their >>bosses.
Google / duckduckgo.com search will confirm this:N++
savetz.com
https://www.savetz.com rC| yic rC| YIC05FI_15.html
What should I know about Usenet "netiquette" before posting?
If you are posting to one of the top-level hierarchies,
your message will find its way to an audience of more than three million >>potential readers.
Keep the your message at or under 72 characters per line.
Not everyone uses the 80-column by 25-row text that you may be accustomed to, >>so shorter lines mean ...
If it word wrapped as he typed it, as many programs do, he wouldn't
add hard returns.
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
Expensive to buy, but cheap to run. Very nice to use, instant response.
My previous one died (one ring out of two died) after about 10 years. >>>Not a very reliable brand, they told me. Repair was possible (replace >>>the module) but very expensive.
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
I was going to suggest that you could cut your wrists, but that would
be in bad taste.
I take daily aspirin on my doctor's orders. Envision lots of bleeding.
She calls me John and I call her Sam. She wears miniskirts to work.
Microwaves are OK,
As long as the shielding is OK and you keep some distance.
Have a nice detector for leakage.
I suspect that a bit of leakage is not dangerous. Standing out in
sunlight is probably worse.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:
On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 21:52:07 +0200, "Carlos E.R."<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-08-08 20:14, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
No idea why that would be.
Consumer induction hot plates operate between 25 - 50 KHz. You can
see it on a spectrum analyzer or SDR (software defined radio)
receiver:
"Induction cooker interference" ><https://www.sigidwiki.com/wiki/Induction_cooker_interference>
Some induction cookers drop below 25 KHz, which can be heard by some
children and people with unusually sensitive hearing:
"My new Wolf induction cook top is unusable because of the
high-frequency screaming" ><https://www.reddit.com/r/Appliances/comments/128lc8u/my_new_wolf_induction_cooktop_is_unusable_because/>
(Click on "read more").
Some people are allegedly "electrosensitive":
"Electromagnetic hypersensitivity" ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity>
The problem seems to be sufficiently common to support an industry:
"RF Protection Apparel" ><https://www.emrss.com/collections/woremor-emf-5g-shielding-clothing>
"EMF shielding clothing" ><https://www.google.com/search?q=EMF+shielding+clothing&udm=2>
"Tin foil hats:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=tin+foil+hats&udm=2>
On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 02:12:49 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 8/08/2026 11:49 pm, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 07:56:13 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2026 06:54:22 -0700, john larkin <jl@htigct.com> wrote: >>>>
On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 09:43:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:
On 6/08/2026 6:48 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 18:09:59 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
<snip>
Most of the old electric ranges that I've seen have at least one
broken heater element. Temperature cycling to read heat is stressful.
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
My younger brother has one - actually a double-width induction cook-top
on top of a double oven. He was pretty well off even before he got the
job of organising the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000, and his wife likes
entertaining (and they have five kids and thirteen grand-kids to
entertain these day)s.
I used it for a couple of weeks when I house sat there while he was away
and my wife was running a course at one of the Sydney Universities. It
worked fine then - I found it very easy to use - and it was still
working fine the last time I had dinner in his house - less than a year ago. >>
Perhaps a bit out of your reach, but nice if you have that kind of money.
I could buy 1000 of them, but I don't want one. It will be dead in 10
years and probably un-repairable.
Don't they need special cookware?
A gas flame is great for cooking.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>wrote:
On 8/8/2026 5:05 PM, joegwinn@comcast.net wrote:
"My new Wolf induction cook top is unusable because of the
high-frequency screaming"
<https://www.reddit.com/r/Appliances/comments/128lc8u/my_new_wolf_induction_cooktop_is_unusable_because/>
(Click on "read more").
I bet that this is the reason. In my youth, I could hear 20 KHz. My
wife still can.
Ditto. What's most annoying is you hear this annoying sound and,
when you turn to complain about it to those STANDING NEXT TO YOU
("What's that godawful noise?"), they look at you like you're
crazy!
Back in Baltimore in the 1970s, there was a local big-box DrugstoreA colleague in school doubted my ability to hear these things.
that left their ultrasonic motion detector burglar alarm system on
standby, and a girlfriend complained that the place made here
depressed. I was skeptical, but agreed to go to that store. It
depressed me too. Turned out we sensed the 26 KHz howl as pressure,
and effect I had experienced in my own home lab. I went to the store
manager, who was also skeptical, and I pointed out this could be
costing them sales. Don't know what happened, but they turned the
alarm system off during business hours, and the depression lifted.
So, we played the "can you hear it now?" game (while he
"randomly" decided whether to turn it on or off) and he
was rid of his disbelief in short order.
Now, hearing the flyback in a conventional TV is taxing for me. :<
On 8/8/2026 1:01 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:[...]
My previous gas cooker, actually my mother's, had a slider to adjust a thermostat on the oven, going from 1 to 9.
"A knob by any other name..." :< I dislike the imprecision. My
recipes are very explicit: this temperature for this length of time,
etc.
Current stovetop relies on knobs for settings. So, "about a 3-and-a-half"
is as close as I can specify to the desired temperature.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 8/8/2026 1:01 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:[...]
My previous gas cooker, actually my mother's, had a slider to adjust a
thermostat on the oven, going from 1 to 9.
"A knob by any other name..." :< I dislike the imprecision. My
recipes are very explicit: this temperature for this length of time,
etc.
Current stovetop relies on knobs for settings. So, "about a 3-and-a-half" >> is as close as I can specify to the desired temperature.
A lot depends on the positioning of the sensor and the food to be
cooked. Many of the old recipes for gas cookery specified the top,
middle or bottom of the oven. Even in my electric oven there is a big difference in the way things cook in different positions and how long
the element is on and red hot during the cooking time.
The shorter wavelength radiant heat from a red-hot element will brown
the surface differently from longer wavelength and there is an unwanted positive feedback mechanism: as the surface changes colour, it absorbs
more heat and browns even faster. In bread toasters, where the element
is visibly red hot, this effect makes them much more difficult to
control.
This assumes you know how YOUR oven cooks, how true to setpoint it is,
etc.-a People with "knobs" that indicate temperature obviously are
just "in the ballpark".
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
I wonder how reliable the induction gadgets are. I sure don't want
one.
Expensive to buy, but cheap to run. Very nice to use, instant response. >>>>
My previous one died (one ring out of two died) after about 10 years. >>>>Not a very reliable brand, they told me. Repair was possible (replace >>>>the module) but very expensive.
I have an inductive heater plate for cooking.
Stopped using it as it gave me a headache every time
Maybe I have too much iron in me?
I was going to suggest that you could cut your wrists, but that would
be in bad taste.
I take daily aspirin on my doctor's orders. Envision lots of bleeding.
She calls me John and I call her Sam. She wears miniskirts to work.
Microwaves are OK,
As long as the shielding is OK and you keep some distance.
Have a nice detector for leakage.
I suspect that a bit of leakage is not dangerous. Standing out in
sunlight is probably worse.
We had 'tropical' temperatures here a few days last week, some more predicted later this week.
29.5 C indoors (no airco here) 32 C outdoors...
Did some mowing of grass in the garden, was OK in the sun, wearing a hat. >Things are very dry here, gras hardly grows due to lack of water.
River water levels (Rhine river) are at an all time low.
In Germany they are now allowing trucks on sundays as the water levels in the river are too low for the shipping.
https://informedclearly.com/en/energy/59927/germany-sunday-truck-ban-rhine-drought-2026
And we (Neterlands) are even downstream of that.
On Sun, 09 Aug 2026 07:51:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
peaks in the high 80's F. Yikes. At least the humidity is low.We are in Truckee at 6400 feet, and we expected it to be cool, but it
It does get cool at night, low 50's, so we can open the windows at
night and cool off the cabin.
People claim that it can snow any day of the year here. I wish it
would.
I did ski on the 4th of July here once.
We were having lunch outside one Memorial Day, last Monday in May,
looking at people golfing, and we had a flash blizzard.
On 2026-08-09 13:03, Don Y wrote:
This assumes you know how YOUR oven cooks, how true to setpoint it is,
etc.-a People with "knobs" that indicate temperature obviously are
just "in the ballpark".
I have an electronic thermometer; the sensor is probably a termopar, which can
be positioned inside the oven.
For instance, to cook potatoes, I put one sensor in the tray, and with the other I pierce the potato. When the temp inside the potato reaches 100-#C, I power off the oven.
I have forgotten the oven temp, but with this method it doesn't matter much.
On 10/08/2026 12:57 am, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2026 07:51:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>> wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
peaks in the high 80's F. Yikes. At least the humidity is low.We are in Truckee at 6400 feet, and we expected it to be cool, but it
It does get cool at night, low 50's, so we can open the windows at
night and cool off the cabin.
People claim that it can snow any day of the year here. I wish it
would.
I did ski on the 4th of July here once.
We were having lunch outside one Memorial Day, last Monday in May,
looking at people golfing, and we had a flash blizzard.
John Larkin confuses weather with climate and imagines that because
weather is unpredictable, climate - as the average of weather - is also unpredictable. It's an intellectual failure, and one that his vanity
doesn't let him recognise.
On 8/9/26 17:11, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 10/08/2026 12:57 am, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2026 07:51:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
We are in Truckee at 6400 feet, and we expected it to be cool, but it >>> peaks in the high 80's F. Yikes. At least the humidity is low.
It does get cool at night, low 50's, so we can open the windows at
night and cool off the cabin.
People claim that it can snow any day of the year here. I wish it
would.
I did ski on the 4th of July here once.
We were having lunch outside one Memorial Day, last Monday in May,
looking at people golfing, and we had a flash blizzard.
John Larkin confuses weather with climate and imagines that because
weather is unpredictable, climate - as the average of weather - is
also unpredictable. It's an intellectual failure, and one that his
vanity doesn't let him recognise.
When does 'weather' become 'climate'?
Apart from some trivial periodic phenomena, it's noisy at all time scales. Probably 1/f,
but I have yet to find a dataset that makes this obvious.
Identifying trends in noisy data is fraught with pitfalls.Starvation is a pretty serious pitfall, but it is the sort of thing that
Don't [induction hobs] need special cookware?
A gas flame is great for cooking.
Temperature sensors then verify the gas is ignited (by sensing the heat)I believe the sensor is a thermocouple which generates enough power to
and allow the gas flow to continue.
On 10/08/2026 3:20 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 8/9/26 17:11, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 10/08/2026 12:57 am, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2026 07:51:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
We are in Truckee at 6400 feet, and we expected it to be cool, but it >>>> peaks in the high 80's F. Yikes. At least the humidity is low.
It does get cool at night, low 50's, so we can open the windows at
night and cool off the cabin.
People claim that it can snow any day of the year here. I wish it
would.
I did ski on the 4th of July here once.
We were having lunch outside one Memorial Day, last Monday in May,
looking at people golfing, and we had a flash blizzard.
John Larkin confuses weather with climate and imagines that because
weather is unpredictable, climate - as the average of weather - is
also unpredictable. It's an intellectual failure, and one that his
vanity doesn't let him recognise.
When does 'weather' become 'climate'?
When it grows crops.
Apart from some trivial periodic phenomena, it's noisy at all time scales. Probably 1/f,
but I have yet to find a dataset that makes this obvious.
Weather is periodic over periods counted in years.
It is reliably cold for most of winter and warm for most of summer. This
may be a trivial periodic phenomenon, but farming relies on it.
Identifying trends in noisy data is fraught with pitfalls.Starvation is a pretty serious pitfall, but it is the sort of thing that
can happen if you ignore the wrong trivial periodic phenomena.
On 2026-08-06 01:43, Bill Sloman wrote:
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and
you can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
Why didn't she smell the gas?
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 16:31:11 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote:
On 10/08/2026 3:20 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 8/9/26 17:11, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 10/08/2026 12:57 am, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2026 07:51:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
john larkin <jl@htigct.com>wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2026 18:14:58 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>wrote:
On 2026-08-08 15:49, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
We are in Truckee at 6400 feet, and we expected it to be cool, but it >>>>> peaks in the high 80's F. Yikes. At least the humidity is low.
It does get cool at night, low 50's, so we can open the windows at
night and cool off the cabin.
People claim that it can snow any day of the year here. I wish it
would.
I did ski on the 4th of July here once.
We were having lunch outside one Memorial Day, last Monday in May,
looking at people golfing, and we had a flash blizzard.
John Larkin confuses weather with climate and imagines that because
weather is unpredictable, climate - as the average of weather - is
also unpredictable. It's an intellectual failure, and one that his
vanity doesn't let him recognise.
When does 'weather' become 'climate'?
When it grows crops.
Apart from some trivial periodic phenomena, it's noisy at all time scales. Probably 1/f,
but I have yet to find a dataset that makes this obvious.
Weather is periodic over periods counted in years.
It is reliably cold for most of winter and warm for most of summer. This
may be a trivial periodic phenomenon, but farming relies on it.
Identifying trends in noisy data is fraught with pitfalls.Starvation is a pretty serious pitfall, but it is the sort of thing that
can happen if you ignore the wrong trivial periodic phenomena.
Crop yields are up enormously in recent decades. Thank
Fertilizers, mostly derived from oil and gas
Farm machinery and transport, using diesel.
Irrigation, diesel
Insecticides and weed killers, mostly derived from petrochemicals.
Increased CO2, partly from burning fossil fuels.
Warm weather, mostly natural from the ending of the LIA.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-supply
On 08/08/2026 08:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-08-06 01:43, Bill Sloman wrote:
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and
you can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
Major problem with that one was the shoddy prefab construction technique that allowed it to collapse spectacularly like a deck of cards.
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
Why didn't she smell the gas?
Some older people can't smell it at all! Slow build up of gas overnight
also saturates the sense of smell so that you are unaware after a while.
Mains gas explosions happen more often than you might think - this--
recent UK one particularly spectacular (caught on doorcam video).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c78gx85e05go
We've had electric with spiral elements, electric with flat elements,
gas and induction. Also have used halogen.
On 08/08/2026 15:17, Don Y wrote:
<xxxx>> Our furnace uses a hot plate igniter (previous one used a spark igniter).
Temperature sensors then verify the gas is ignited (by sensing the heat)I believe the sensor is a thermocouple which generates enough power to hold a
and allow the gas flow to continue.
solenoid gas valve open against a light spring. You need to manually open the
valve and wait till the thermocouple is hot enough to provide the holding current.
On 08/08/2026 15:17, Don Y wrote:
<xxxx>> Our furnace uses a hot plate igniter (previous one used a spark >igniter).
Temperature sensors then verify the gas is ignited (by sensing the heat)I believe the sensor is a thermocouple which generates enough power to
and allow the gas flow to continue.
hold a solenoid gas valve open against a light spring. You need to
manually open the valve and wait till the thermocouple is hot enough to >provide the holding current.
On 11/08/2026 1:10 am, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/08/2026 08:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-08-06 01:43, Bill Sloman wrote:
Have that happen somewhere well up a multi-apartment tower block and
you can kill a few people. It has happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Point
Major problem with that one was the shoddy prefab construction technique
that allowed it to collapse spectacularly like a deck of cards.
It was widely recognised as "shoddy" after the Ronan Point partial
collapse. It had been used for some years on lower - up to six storey - >apartment blocks,and hadn't seen as shoddy there. When Ronan Point was >finally pulled down, it did turn out that the prefab structure hadn't
been put together as carefully as if should have been.
"It was discovered that most of the mechanical connections between floor >slabs and flank walls had not been attached properly during
construction. Significant corner-cutting had also been undertaken during
the construction, with bolts often missing. Holes that should have been >filled with concrete were found stuffed with rubbish and newspaper."
It wasn't so much that the prefab construction technique was shoddy, as
that Ronan Point had been put together by cowboy builders. England has
never been short of them -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ragged-Trousered_Philanthropists
dates from 1910, but wasn't published until 1914 and then only in a
cut-down version. The original text didn't get published until 1955.
When Ivy Hodge lit her match she ignited more gas than she expected.
Why didn't she smell the gas?
Some older people can't smell it at all! Slow build up of gas overnight
also saturates the sense of smell so that you are unaware after a while.
I can vouch for that.
Mains gas explosions happen more often than you might think - this
recent UK one particularly spectacular (caught on doorcam video).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c78gx85e05go
On 08/08/2026 21:57, john larkin wrote:
<xxxx>
I do nearly all the cooking.
Don't [induction hobs] need special cookware?
A gas flame is great for cooking.
We've had electric with spiral elements, electric with flat elements,
gas and induction. Also have used halogen.
At the moment it's gas, because we recently moved and that's what is
here for now. As soon as I get the chance, the gas is scrap and we're
going back to induction.
Very easy cleaning. Very low power possible - useful for dry frying
onions for example. Very high power possible - much quicker than gas to bring a pot of water to the boil. The top only gets hot through contact
with a hot pan. No wasted heat up the side of the pot heating the
handles. No fumes or condensation. Undoubtedly safer.
The cookware isn't 'special' nowadays, but there will be some old pots
and pans you can't use. Also, because the coupling seems to be different
for different pans, it can be harder to judge how far to turn the knob.
I have a small two-egg omelette (US: Homeopathic omelette) pan which
needs a surprisingly high setting. Just a question of getting used to it.
While gas is cheaper than electricity, I would guess that the lack of
wasted heat compensates for that. The cost for a reasonable quality induction hob isn't that much different. On balance, induction hobs are
not perfect, but are very much better than the alternatives.
I've never used an induction cooktop but the only two negatives I've noticed while researching them to be prepared for when my 50 year old gas stove dies are the cost and the coil size, which are actually two sides of the same coin.
They are getting cheaper but are still the most expensive to purchase, and I have hopes for more economies of scale before I'm forced to purchase one :-).
Biggest con is that to keep the cost down most cooktops have coils sized for smaller pans and skillets so you get uneven heating with larger cookware, such
as a cool outer inch or more in a 12" skillet or Dutch oven.
Makes browning
lots of chunks of stew meat or caramelizing several chopped onions evenly more
finicky than it should be.
Units with bigger coils are available but seem to
cost 50+% more.
The cookware test is "if a magnet sticks to the pan it will work".
On 8/10/2026 12:34 PM, Carl wrote:
I've never used an induction cooktop but the only two negatives I've noticed
while researching them to be prepared for when my 50 year old gas stove dies
are the cost and the coil size, which are actually two sides of the same coin.
They are getting cheaper but are still the most expensive to purchase, and I
have hopes for more economies of scale before I'm forced to purchase one :-).
Biggest con is that to keep the cost down most cooktops have coils sized for
smaller pans and skillets so you get uneven heating with larger cookware, such
as a cool outer inch or more in a 12" skillet or Dutch oven.
Our electric cooktop has "burners" subsets of which can be used based
on the size of the pot. E.g., the largest is 11.5" (for a 12" pot as
the contact surface of same is really only 11.5"), 9.5" (for a 10" pot),
8.5" and 6". The heating element is essentially continuous over that
entire surface -- excepting a 1.5" dia region in the very center
(perhaps if you wanted to center an egg poaching pan?)
Makes browning
lots of chunks of stew meat or caramelizing several chopped onions evenly more
finicky than it should be.
My complaint (with gas) was that you couldn't get the heat LOW enough
AND widespread to let something simmer, evenly, for long periods of
time (without BURNING one portion)
Units with bigger coils are available but seem to
cost 50+% more.
I've found it nice that I know the entire surface comes to the same >temperature at the same time -- no need to preheat pans, no hot
spots (or cool spots), etc. I can get the *entire* pan as hot (or
as "warm") as desired.
I routinely melt chocolate in a frying pan (no double boiler)
without worrying about it burning *or* cooling based on its
location in the pan. (chocolate gets a funny texture when heated
and cooled repeatedly -- melt it and then use it!)
To remove the heat quickly, I have to resort to lifting the pan
from the cooking surface as that remains hot for some time after
powered down (something that wouldn't happen with induction -- but,
you're still stuck with the heat stored in the pan!)
[I'd like a device that would quickly let me CHILL large
masses (refrigerator is way to inefficient at doing so).
Presently, I fill the sink with ice and put those items I
want to rapidly cool *in* that bath to expedite the cooling
(to discourage the growth of harmful critters)]
The cookware test is "if a magnet sticks to the pan it will work".
Yeah, so "no" to glass/ceramic, copper, aluminum clad (?), etc.
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>wrote:
On 8/10/2026 12:34 PM, Carl wrote:
I've never used an induction cooktop but the only two negatives I've noticed
while researching them to be prepared for when my 50 year old gas stove dies
are the cost and the coil size, which are actually two sides of the same coin.
They are getting cheaper but are still the most expensive to purchase, and I
have hopes for more economies of scale before I'm forced to purchase one :-).
Biggest con is that to keep the cost down most cooktops have coils sized for
smaller pans and skillets so you get uneven heating with larger cookware, such
as a cool outer inch or more in a 12" skillet or Dutch oven.
Our electric cooktop has "burners" subsets of which can be used based
on the size of the pot. E.g., the largest is 11.5" (for a 12" pot as
the contact surface of same is really only 11.5"), 9.5" (for a 10" pot),
8.5" and 6". The heating element is essentially continuous over that
entire surface -- excepting a 1.5" dia region in the very center
(perhaps if you wanted to center an egg poaching pan?)
Makes browning
lots of chunks of stew meat or caramelizing several chopped onions evenly more
finicky than it should be.
My complaint (with gas) was that you couldn't get the heat LOW enough
AND widespread to let something simmer, evenly, for long periods of
time (without BURNING one portion)
Units with bigger coils are available but seem to
cost 50+% more.
I've found it nice that I know the entire surface comes to the same >temperature at the same time -- no need to preheat pans, no hot
spots (or cool spots), etc. I can get the *entire* pan as hot (or
as "warm") as desired.
I routinely melt chocolate in a frying pan (no double boiler)
without worrying about it burning *or* cooling based on its
location in the pan. (chocolate gets a funny texture when heated
and cooled repeatedly -- melt it and then use it!)
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