• OT news article

    From Edward Rawde@invalid@invalid.invalid to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 17:47:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


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  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 23:07:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    Edward Rawde <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    A sudden release of something under pressure, for example a cylinder of compressed gas.

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    'He added: "Georgie Buxton took the impact of that explosion to his head and torso causing him to lose consciousness and suffer catastrophic injury."'

    As they were wearing breathing apparatus presumably they had an air
    cylinder, and if they got the regulator settings wrong or damaged one of the fittings then it could have suddenly released the pressure. It sounds like that caused a head injury rather than being the direct cause of death as
    such - eg if it caused them to trip and fall, bashing their head on
    something on the way down.

    Theo
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  • From Edward Rawde@invalid@invalid.invalid to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 19:22:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message news:O0x*blVMA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
    Edward Rawde <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    A sudden release of something under pressure, for example a cylinder of compressed gas.

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    'He added: "Georgie Buxton took the impact of that explosion to his head and torso causing him to lose consciousness and suffer catastrophic injury."'

    As they were wearing breathing apparatus presumably they had an air
    cylinder, and if they got the regulator settings wrong or damaged one of the fittings then it could have suddenly released the pressure. It sounds like that caused a head injury rather than being the direct cause of death as
    such - eg if it caused them to trip and fall, bashing their head on
    something on the way down.

    Ok so the explosion was caused by breathing apparatus not fuel vapour.


    Theo


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  • From joegwinn@joegwinn@comcast.net to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 19:32:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:47:57 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    In such areas, explosions due to pressure vessels bursting or
    imploding are common.

    Joe
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  • From Don Y@blockedofcourse@foo.invalid to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 17:37:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 7/30/2026 2:47 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    Put some Mentos in a bottle of soda...

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?



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  • From Edward Rawde@invalid@invalid.invalid to sci.electronics.design on Thu Jul 30 20:49:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:114gqno$290n6$1@dont-email.me...
    On 7/30/2026 2:47 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    Put some Mentos in a bottle of soda...

    Sure. I remember watching a video of someone putting a bottle of beer in a microwave oven
    out in the open away from buildings and then arranging for the microwave to run on full power.
    I forget how many minutes it took before the microwave oven was obliterated. Not the kind of thing you expect to happen in a fuel tank.


    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?





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  • From John R Walliker@jrwalliker@gmail.com to sci.electronics.design on Fri Jul 31 09:58:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 31/07/2026 01:49, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:114gqno$290n6$1@dont-email.me...
    On 7/30/2026 2:47 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    Put some Mentos in a bottle of soda...

    Sure. I remember watching a video of someone putting a bottle of beer in a microwave oven
    out in the open away from buildings and then arranging for the microwave to run on full power.
    I forget how many minutes it took before the microwave oven was obliterated. Not the kind of thing you expect to happen in a fuel tank.


    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    Aircraft fuel tanks are sometimes fitted with explosion suppression
    systems. These have a tank of fire extinguishing fluid pressurised
    with nitrogen. A thin "bursting diaphragm" keeps it all in the
    cylinder until a fire or explosion is detected at which point a small
    explosive charge ruptures the diaphragm releasing the fire
    suppressant faster than the flame velocity in the original explosion.

    I once applied for a job at a company which made such systems. I
    decided not to follow it up when I discovered how the vacancy
    had arisen.

    John

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  • From Martin Brown@'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk to sci.electronics.design on Fri Jul 31 11:23:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 30/07/2026 22:47, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There are other sorts of explosion in some high energy materials.

    Most notably an entropic explosion where the molecule just literally
    falls apart with a rapid increase in volume. TATP is a canonical example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_explosion

    Another class are strained ring exotic materials but not enough of them
    has ever been synthesised to determine their properties reliably (or if
    they have then it remains classified).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octanitrocubane

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    Perhaps by accidentally setting off the fire control system that is
    intended to quench flames if the fuel tank is ruptured.

    If it had been a proper fuel vapour and air explosion then the wing
    would have been totally destroyed. Whatever happened was lethal to
    humans at close range but not to the airframe.

    In some industrial chemical tanks with highly flammable contents they
    purge continuously with dry nitrogen and require workers to wear normal
    air sets (to minimise risk of having a detonation from residual fumes).
    And they use tools made of beryllium copper that do not spark.
    --
    Martin Brown

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  • From legg@legg@nospam.magma.ca to sci.electronics.design on Fri Jul 31 10:02:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:47:57 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


    Mix the wrong chemicals - sudden release of gas or steam.

    Sudden release of pressure or vacuum (implosive).

    An electrical fusing event - melting of metal conductor.

    Not all 'fuels' will combust by themselves - they need
    to combine with something else (eg oxygen) and/or be
    triggered.

    RL
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  • From Theo@theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk to sci.electronics.design on Fri Jul 31 15:22:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 31/07/2026 01:49, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:114gqno$290n6$1@dont-email.me...
    On 7/30/2026 2:47 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    Put some Mentos in a bottle of soda...

    Sure. I remember watching a video of someone putting a bottle of beer in a microwave oven
    out in the open away from buildings and then arranging for the microwave to run on full power.
    I forget how many minutes it took before the microwave oven was obliterated.
    Not the kind of thing you expect to happen in a fuel tank.


    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?

    Aircraft fuel tanks are sometimes fitted with explosion suppression
    systems. These have a tank of fire extinguishing fluid pressurised
    with nitrogen. A thin "bursting diaphragm" keeps it all in the
    cylinder until a fire or explosion is detected at which point a small explosive charge ruptures the diaphragm releasing the fire
    suppressant faster than the flame velocity in the original explosion.

    Looking at the 787 firefighting manual, I'm not seeing any fire bottles
    inside the fuel tanks. The cargo and engine fire bottles are further
    forward (p197):

    https://www.boeing.com/content/dam/boeing/v2/airports/arff/arff_complete.pdf

    Theo
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  • From Don Y@blockedofcourse@foo.invalid to sci.electronics.design on Fri Jul 31 08:26:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 7/31/2026 1:58 AM, John R Walliker wrote:
    Aircraft fuel tanks are sometimes fitted with explosion suppression systems.-a These have a tank of fire extinguishing fluid pressurised
    with nitrogen.-a A thin "bursting diaphragm" keeps it all in the
    cylinder until a fire or explosion is detected at which point a small explosive charge ruptures the diaphragm releasing the fire
    suppressant faster than the flame velocity in the original explosion.

    I once applied for a job at a company which made such systems.-a I
    decided not to follow it up when I discovered how the vacancy
    had arisen.
    I was responsible for overseeing the production of an "explosion proof" computer used on the (military) flight line. It was disconcerting
    to worry that you might overlook some detail and, at some future
    date, someone might lose their life in a fire/explosion because of
    that omission!

    Most distressing was the knowledge that you'd never KNOW that
    you'd done the job correctly!
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  • From Bill Sloman@bill.sloman@ieee.org to sci.electronics.design on Sat Aug 1 02:50:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 1/08/2026 12:02 am, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:47:57 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


    Mix the wrong chemicals - sudden release of gas or steam.

    Sudden release of pressure or vacuum (implosive).

    An electrical fusing event - melting of metal conductor.

    Not all 'fuels' will combust by themselves - they need
    to combine with something else (eg oxygen) and/or be
    triggered.

    Most explosives produce non-combustion explosions.

    The interesting variant is mono-propellant rocket fuels.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopropellant


    My post-doc project was supposed to look at compound - Dewar benzene -
    which would qualify.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewar_benzene

    The project didn't get anywhere because it was founded on the
    observation that a droplet of Dewar benzene emitted a flash of light
    when it isomerised to regular benzene, which was photochemically odd.

    What the original observer hadn't been aware of was that the
    isomersation released enough energy to heat the molecule to about 2000K
    - white heat - and the flash of light was just thermal radiation, and
    not in the least photochemically interesting.

    It would have made a nice mono-propellant if it hadn't been exceedingly expensive to make.
    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    Bill Sloman, sydney


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  • From legg@legg@nospam.magma.ca to sci.electronics.design on Sat Aug 1 11:14:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On Sat, 1 Aug 2026 02:50:59 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 1/08/2026 12:02 am, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:47:57 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


    Mix the wrong chemicals - sudden release of gas or steam.

    Sudden release of pressure or vacuum (implosive).

    An electrical fusing event - melting of metal conductor.

    Not all 'fuels' will combust by themselves - they need
    to combine with something else (eg oxygen) and/or be
    triggered.

    Most explosives produce non-combustion explosions.

    The interesting variant is mono-propellant rocket fuels.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopropellant


    My post-doc project was supposed to look at compound - Dewar benzene -
    which would qualify.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewar_benzene

    The project didn't get anywhere because it was founded on the
    observation that a droplet of Dewar benzene emitted a flash of light
    when it isomerised to regular benzene, which was photochemically odd.

    What the original observer hadn't been aware of was that the
    isomersation released enough energy to heat the molecule to about 2000K
    - white heat - and the flash of light was just thermal radiation, and
    not in the least photochemically interesting.

    It would have made a nice mono-propellant if it hadn't been exceedingly >expensive to make.

    Maybe the second reason it didn't go anywhere?

    RL
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  • From Bill Sloman@bill.sloman@ieee.org to sci.electronics.design on Sun Aug 2 14:39:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 2/08/2026 1:14 am, legg wrote:
    On Sat, 1 Aug 2026 02:50:59 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 1/08/2026 12:02 am, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 17:47:57 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


    Mix the wrong chemicals - sudden release of gas or steam.

    Sudden release of pressure or vacuum (implosive).

    An electrical fusing event - melting of metal conductor.

    Not all 'fuels' will combust by themselves - they need
    to combine with something else (eg oxygen) and/or be
    triggered.

    Most explosives produce non-combustion explosions.

    The interesting variant is mono-propellant rocket fuels.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopropellant


    My post-doc project was supposed to look at compound - Dewar benzene -
    which would qualify.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewar_benzene

    The project didn't get anywhere because it was founded on the
    observation that a droplet of Dewar benzene emitted a flash of light
    when it isomerised to regular benzene, which was photochemically odd.

    What the original observer hadn't been aware of was that the
    isomersation released enough energy to heat the molecule to about 2000K
    - white heat - and the flash of light was just thermal radiation, and
    not in the least photochemically interesting.

    It would have made a nice mono-propellant if it hadn't been exceedingly
    expensive to make.

    Maybe the second reason it didn't go anywhere?

    No. It was commercially available in the very small quantities we would
    have used. I was thinking of picking up a very low concentration of the molecules in a stream of helium then warming them up enough to get
    enough isomerisations to see - with a photomultiplier as your emission detector, you can count individual photons in the visible range.

    Near-infra-red photons are harder to pick up.
    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From Phil Hobbs@pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net to sci.electronics.design on Tue Aug 11 17:25:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

    On 2026-07-30 17:47, Edward Rawde wrote:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz059e4d7xzo

    What is a non-combustion explosion?

    There's no need to explain what combustion is or that there
    are explosives which don't combust (e.g. TNT).
    But how do you have a "non-combustion explosion" in
    a fuel tank?


    Overpressure, as in a steam boiler exploding.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs
    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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