From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

There is only one problem -- you can't _PURCHASE_ it so you are hooked
forever and have to pay for the rest of your active life. And when (not "if" but "when" -- it is ALWAYS "when", no matter how big and powerful the
company was in its heydays) the company goes down you lose your entire job
you did in all those years you've been using that miracle.

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_ that software when they were selling it.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_ that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

Ask if the "new features" (and possible bug fixes/additions)
are worth chasing -CURRENT.

There are also ways to get capabilities without chasing a
particular product/vendor (e.g., I was using 3D models of
circuit boards back in the 80's -- but, NOT in an EDA package!)
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 00:39:17 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
<ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

There is only one problem -- you can't _PURCHASE_ it so you are hooked >forever and have to pay for the rest of your active life. And when (not "if" >but "when" -- it is ALWAYS "when", no matter how big and powerful the
company was in its heydays) the company goes down you lose your entire job >you did in all those years you've been using that miracle.

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_ >that software when they were selling it.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * >******************************************************************

I think there are some free equivalents.

The viewer is free. I have a guy in the Azores who does our mechanical
design. He's great, and fast.


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_ >> that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

Once again, there is one small problem -- once it went rental you can't buy that last release anymore...

"If I only was as smart yesterday as my wife is today..."

I have Altium Designer with permanent license and grandfathered subscription still valid until mid-2027. Will stick with the latest version available
before that subscription expires.

However, there is no way to purchase a permanent license today for any
version. You are essentially buying a whatever version is current at the
time of purchase and lock yourself to that version for a year. For a price
that is about the same as I paid for a permanent license. It was their marketing ploy back in the days when Eagle went rental -- "Unlike other bad guys we give you a PERMANENT license! If you are an Eagle user we will give
you a discount!". This is how I purchased my AD permanent license back then.

As we can see their word worth absolutely nothing.

The same thing happened to IDA and I'm lucky enough to have a permanent
license with the last version before that happened.

Don't believe a single word they say. There is a simple test to check if
they are lying -- if they open their mouth they are lying.

I have a Garmin navigator somewhere that I bought just because they promised "Lifetime maps updates". IN WRITING -- it is in their printed EULA included with that device. It is even on the original box in very big letters. Then I tried to update maps in it after 4 years or so and that was impossible.
Their lawyer droids CLARIFIED what "Lifetime" means telling that it assumes
the "projected device lifetime" or 3 years, whichever is SHORTER.

A miser pays twice, but a sucker pays always. Don't be that sucker, throw
that garbage where it belongs and NEVER EVER buy anything from such
smartarses.

The rental model is OK for rarely used tools but not for something like
CADs. And it shouldn't be a yearly rental. The right model is e.g. Toyota
with their TechStream car diagnostic and control software. You don't CREATE something that could be used later and/or needs to be maintained. You only
need it when you are working on your car. And they will sell you a
relatively cheap ONE WEEK license that is sufficient for a repair job. You don't CREATE something with it; it is just a tool like e.g. some big iron
SDS hammer drill or whatever -- you don't need it on a daily basis and might only need it ONCE in your entire lifetime so it makes sense to rent it SHORT TERM when needed.

CADs are totally different and they are ALL proprietary so you can't rent a different tool to work on something that was created with another tool.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

I think there are some free equivalents.

It is not necessary that anything has to be free, it is okay if it is
cheap enought. :-D

I know SolidWorks from my company, but since 2006 I have Viacad3D 6.0
($50) for private use and also now the newest Viacad3D 16 ($100) in my
company. Of course there are a view differences to the expensive
SolidWorks, but at least I did not notice them. But what I notice, the
old Version from 2006 is living in a virtual machine now, will work
forever and it is on modern hardware 10 times faster than the fatty
Solidworks that need minutes to open a modell!
And yes, since we all have 3D printer now, there is now live without
3D-cad possible!

Olaf

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/18/2026 8:38 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_
that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

Once again, there is one small problem -- once it went rental you can't buy that last release anymore...

Of course not! You have to have been "keeping up" with it as
new releases came out. Then, simply STOP when the business
model changes.

There are no shortcuts via hindsight.

"If I only was as smart yesterday as my wife is today..."

I have Altium Designer with permanent license and grandfathered subscription still valid until mid-2027. Will stick with the latest version available before that subscription expires.

However, there is no way to purchase a permanent license today for any version. You are essentially buying a whatever version is current at the
time of purchase and lock yourself to that version for a year. For a price

Exactly. They aren't fools. They need a continuous revenue stream
to keep those folks employed.

It's far too easy to pick a version and *stick* with it, ignoring all
of their future "enhancements"; if it worked "well enough" last month,
why won't it work "well enough" NEXT month?

that is about the same as I paid for a permanent license. It was their marketing ploy back in the days when Eagle went rental -- "Unlike other bad guys we give you a PERMANENT license! If you are an Eagle user we will give you a discount!". This is how I purchased my AD permanent license back then.

As we can see their word worth absolutely nothing.

They can always sell the business and the "new owners" can refuse to
honor the promises of the prior owners.

You, of course, don't "own" the software that you've licensed.
But, it will keep behaving as it used to if you avoid crossing the
threshold to the cloud/subscription world.

The same thing happened to IDA and I'm lucky enough to have a permanent license with the last version before that happened.

Don't believe a single word they say. There is a simple test to check if
they are lying -- if they open their mouth they are lying.

I have a Garmin navigator somewhere that I bought just because they promised "Lifetime maps updates". IN WRITING -- it is in their printed EULA included with that device. It is even on the original box in very big letters. Then I tried to update maps in it after 4 years or so and that was impossible.
Their lawyer droids CLARIFIED what "Lifetime" means telling that it assumes the "projected device lifetime" or 3 years, whichever is SHORTER.

"I'm sorry but we no longer sell ("stock") that version of the product.
But, as a prior customer, you are entitled to this special UPGRADE
for just $X (even if X is 0)..."

Of course, once you migrate your designs/projects forwards, there's no way
to step backwards.

Note my recent comment re: a client trying to support a layout I'd
done in OrCAD PCB 7 with PCB 9 -- not possible. And, I'm sure that
migrating a layout from 9 back to 7 would similarly be impossible.

Hence my emphasis on keeping ALL tools available -- they are "knowns",
even if they have warts.

A miser pays twice, but a sucker pays always. Don't be that sucker, throw that garbage where it belongs and NEVER EVER buy anything from such smartarses.

The rental model is OK for rarely used tools but not for something like

I don't see how it can have value anywhere as you need to keep paying
so it is *available* when you later decide you need it. There are no
real savings.

On top of that, the product is in a state of perpetual flux; do you
want to PLAN an effort based on your MEMORY of what a tool PREVIOUSLY
was like? Only to discover that it has changed while you were looking
the other way?

What do you do when/if <something> has changed that causes your
prior investment to be valueless? (e.g., models now in a new format)
Do you invest the time to migrate those things *forward*? I.e., do
you make an ADDITIONAL investment in the tool (money is easy to
quantify; the time required to adapt to something new -- AND UNKNOWN -- can
be incredibly high!)

CADs. And it shouldn't be a yearly rental. The right model is e.g. Toyota with their TechStream car diagnostic and control software. You don't CREATE something that could be used later and/or needs to be maintained. You only need it when you are working on your car. And they will sell you a
relatively cheap ONE WEEK license that is sufficient for a repair job. You don't CREATE something with it; it is just a tool like e.g. some big iron
SDS hammer drill or whatever -- you don't need it on a daily basis and might only need it ONCE in your entire lifetime so it makes sense to rent it SHORT TERM when needed.

My *car* isn't likely going to change (without a significant evaluation process). So, why can't I just *buy* the tool? Price it so it makes
sense for the market into which you are selling it.

I used to buy Workshop Manuals for every car I owned. Even at a few hundred dollars a pop, it was convenient to be able to browse them AT MY OWN PACE before and after problems arose.

Now, I have to *rent* access to a manual "online". Should I just plan on spending a few days downloading every page and archiving it for posterity?
What if I didn't KNOW that a certain page existed that could have addressed
my problem directly?

CADs are totally different and they are ALL proprietary so you can't rent a different tool to work on something that was created with another tool.

That has always been the "a little bit pregnant" hook that all EDA tools
had; you invest in developing libraries which means switching to another
tool represents forfeiting one investment and taking on another. So, you didn't jump around between products (like you could office suites, compilers, desktops, etc.)

One consolation is you don't see these firms rolling in the dough
as their pricing would make you *think*. And, individual shops can
just decide to STOP using a tool and let a service bureau do their
work -- one less seat generating revenue yet the same number of
boards being designed.

I wouldn't want to be in their market...
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other CAD or cat! or whatever .

Now if you had a 4D or where are we now 5D? printer maybe it would make sense. Or ask AI.

BEEP

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/18/2026 8:38 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_
that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

Once again, there is one small problem -- once it went rental you can't buy >> that last release anymore...

Of course not! You have to have been "keeping up" with it as
new releases came out. Then, simply STOP when the business
model changes.

There are no shortcuts via hindsight.

"If I only was as smart yesterday as my wife is today..."

I have Altium Designer with permanent license and grandfathered subscription >> still valid until mid-2027. Will stick with the latest version available
before that subscription expires.

However, there is no way to purchase a permanent license today for any
version. You are essentially buying a whatever version is current at the
time of purchase and lock yourself to that version for a year. For a price

Exactly. They aren't fools. They need a continuous revenue stream
to keep those folks employed.

It's far too easy to pick a version and *stick* with it, ignoring all
of their future "enhancements"; if it worked "well enough" last month,
why won't it work "well enough" NEXT month?

that is about the same as I paid for a permanent license. It was their
marketing ploy back in the days when Eagle went rental -- "Unlike other bad >> guys we give you a PERMANENT license! If you are an Eagle user we will give >> you a discount!". This is how I purchased my AD permanent license back then. >>
As we can see their word worth absolutely nothing.

They can always sell the business and the "new owners" can refuse to
honor the promises of the prior owners.

You, of course, don't "own" the software that you've licensed.
But, it will keep behaving as it used to if you avoid crossing the
threshold to the cloud/subscription world.

The same thing happened to IDA and I'm lucky enough to have a permanent
license with the last version before that happened.

Don't believe a single word they say. There is a simple test to check if
they are lying -- if they open their mouth they are lying.

I have a Garmin navigator somewhere that I bought just because they promised >> "Lifetime maps updates". IN WRITING -- it is in their printed EULA included >> with that device. It is even on the original box in very big letters. Then I >> tried to update maps in it after 4 years or so and that was impossible.
Their lawyer droids CLARIFIED what "Lifetime" means telling that it assumes >> the "projected device lifetime" or 3 years, whichever is SHORTER.

"I'm sorry but we no longer sell ("stock") that version of the product.
But, as a prior customer, you are entitled to this special UPGRADE
for just $X (even if X is 0)..."

Of course, once you migrate your designs/projects forwards, there's no way
to step backwards.

Note my recent comment re: a client trying to support a layout I'd
done in OrCAD PCB 7 with PCB 9 -- not possible. And, I'm sure that
migrating a layout from 9 back to 7 would similarly be impossible.

Hence my emphasis on keeping ALL tools available -- they are "knowns",
even if they have warts.

A miser pays twice, but a sucker pays always. Don't be that sucker, throw
that garbage where it belongs and NEVER EVER buy anything from such
smartarses.

The rental model is OK for rarely used tools but not for something like

I don't see how it can have value anywhere as you need to keep paying
so it is *available* when you later decide you need it. There are no
real savings.

On top of that, the product is in a state of perpetual flux; do you
want to PLAN an effort based on your MEMORY of what a tool PREVIOUSLY
was like? Only to discover that it has changed while you were looking
the other way?

What do you do when/if <something> has changed that causes your
prior investment to be valueless? (e.g., models now in a new format)
Do you invest the time to migrate those things *forward*? I.e., do
you make an ADDITIONAL investment in the tool (money is easy to
quantify; the time required to adapt to something new -- AND UNKNOWN -- can be incredibly high!)

CADs. And it shouldn't be a yearly rental. The right model is e.g. Toyota
with their TechStream car diagnostic and control software. You don't CREATE >> something that could be used later and/or needs to be maintained. You only >> need it when you are working on your car. And they will sell you a
relatively cheap ONE WEEK license that is sufficient for a repair job. You >> don't CREATE something with it; it is just a tool like e.g. some big iron
SDS hammer drill or whatever -- you don't need it on a daily basis and might >> only need it ONCE in your entire lifetime so it makes sense to rent it SHORT >> TERM when needed.

My *car* isn't likely going to change (without a significant evaluation process). So, why can't I just *buy* the tool? Price it so it makes
sense for the market into which you are selling it.

They will sell it if you want. This is what auto mechanics do who are in the car repair business -- they need it every day. it is not all that cheap but they do sell it.

On the other hand, there are lots of hacked pirated versions coming with Chinese OBD adapters and without. They DO work and can do [almost]
everything the legal version does except connecting to the Toyota data
server. It is not critical for regular repairs / setups /configuration but
it can't reflash (or provision) any ECU as all firmware images are kept on their server. It is not even an attempt to somehow get control over a mere
user -- there are simply too many ECUs in all Toyota cars (TechStream
supports them all) and different versions of their firmware, specific for particular VINs and so on. It is simply impossible to fit them all in a
piece of software and to make a decision what version to pull based on a particular VIN.

But if you, e.g., replaced some ECUs you have to "marry" them to the rest of the vehicle that is not possible without a legal licensed TechStream. This where that one week license comes handy for those who fix their cars themselves.

I used to buy Workshop Manuals for every car I owned. Even at a few hundred dollars a pop, it was convenient to be able to browse them AT MY OWN PACE before and after problems arose.

I do also have 8-volume PRINTED shop manual for my Lexus LS460L but you can
do almost nothing without TechStream. Maybe tighten some loose nut/bolt or replace something pure mechanical but even that is not always possible
without sending some commands to the system first. TechStream finds 50+ ECUs
in my LS460L (don't remember exact number -- it's been a while since I last talked to my vehicle) and each and every of those have settings and configuration. Some of them also have UNIQUE IDs so the system must be instructed to take a new ECU replacing the old ID otherwise it won't work properly and might even refuse to start.

Now, I have to *rent* access to a manual "online". Should I just plan on spending a few days downloading every page and archiving it for posterity? What if I didn't KNOW that a certain page existed that could have addressed my problem directly?

CADs are totally different and they are ALL proprietary so you can't rent a >> different tool to work on something that was created with another tool.

That has always been the "a little bit pregnant" hook that all EDA tools
had; you invest in developing libraries which means switching to another
tool represents forfeiting one investment and taking on another. So, you didn't jump around between products (like you could office suites, compilers, desktops, etc.)

One consolation is you don't see these firms rolling in the dough
as their pricing would make you *think*. And, individual shops can
just decide to STOP using a tool and let a service bureau do their
work -- one less seat generating revenue yet the same number of
boards being designed.

I wouldn't want to be in their market...

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Am 19.06.26 um 03:49 schrieb Don Y:

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to
_PURCHASE_
that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

I have an eternal Altium Designer license and stopped the yearly
subscription in 2021 when AD crashed 5 seconds after calling it up,
repeatedly. I got no help at all when I said that my Win10 machine
ran under VMware. They pretended that VMware could not handle
networks. But that's VMwares bread and butter.

They probably fear that it really could run forever or, even worse,
I could give a copy of the VM to everybody and his dog.

The idea is that I cannot expose customer data to the net, so the
win10 world ends at the ext4 /d partition that is mapped to d:
by VMware and that contains the actual designs.

I have made a quick design of a 100 * 100 mm board with holes in
100mil raster and VCC & GND planes on top & below.
Yesterday, a friend paid me a visit and we tried to move the
entire Altium design to his KICad. That was a matter of minutes.

Gerhard
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Am 19.06.26 um 11:16 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

I found the problem myself. I had renamed an old Protel library
from .lib to .pcblib.
Altium does not check the contents in any way and crashes.

Gerhard

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light
pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and
can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure
things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is
half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

Now if you had a 4D or where are we now 5D? printer maybe it would make sense. >Or ask AI.

BEEP

John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>

wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure
anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other
CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light
pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and
can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure
things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is
half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/swr_box_LEDs.jpg

I have several of those boxes, with all sorts of designs in it
https://panteltje.nl/pub/lnb_ref_in_box_IMG_6678.JPG

All eurocard format, nice for RF stuff and .1 inch verobard without silly [golden] backplanes.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG

Old one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

The PeeSee addiction is a disaster
No good for small 1 of projects.

Raspberry Pi hat with veroboard and ebay modules, all .1 inch
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/raspi_add_on_compass_accelerometer_pressure_GPS_interface_IMG_4949.JPG

Mr dremel!


Have not used El Tea Spice in many years
Like that tennis player, live, versus the math guy with his calculator
Who wins?
LOL




Anyways, they nopw ting how did thse Egyption build the Pyramids...

Soon if anything is left of humanity after trump's nuke wars
they will wonder 'how did those humming beans make those cellphones.
And what are salettes and GPS, all we see is space junk, in space AND on the houses
or what's left of the houses.




--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 15:19:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure >>>>anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other
CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light
pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and
can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure
things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is
half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/swr_box_LEDs.jpg

I have several of those boxes, with all sorts of designs in it
https://panteltje.nl/pub/lnb_ref_in_box_IMG_6678.JPG

All eurocard format, nice for RF stuff and .1 inch verobard without silly [golden] backplanes.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG

Old one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

The PeeSee addiction is a disaster
No good for small 1 of projects.

Raspberry Pi hat with veroboard and ebay modules, all .1 inch
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/raspi_add_on_compass_accelerometer_pressure_GPS_interface_IMG_4949.JPG

Mr dremel!

Have not used El Tea Spice in many years
Like that tennis player, live, versus the math guy with his calculator
Who wins?
LOL

Anyways, they nopw ting how did thse Egyption build the Pyramids...

There were bigger pyramids in South America.

Soon if anything is left of humanity after trump's nuke wars

He's trying to keep Iran from nuking Israel, which they were probably
planning to do.

they will wonder 'how did those humming beans make those cellphones.
And what are salettes and GPS, all we see is space junk, in space AND on the houses
or what's left of the houses.

I'm designing things to be manufactured. 3D modeling really helps.

We are using the R Pi cpu, the RP2040, mildly overclocked.




John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/2026 2:16 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.06.26 um 03:49 schrieb Don Y:

On 6/18/2026 5:39 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

And yearly _RENT_ now cost the same (if not more) that is cost to _PURCHASE_
that software when they were selling it.

The smart move is to stick with the last release BEFORE it
becomes cloud-based or rental-only (as applicable).

I have an eternal Altium Designer license and stopped the yearly
subscription in 2021 when AD crashed 5 seconds after calling it up, repeatedly. I got no help at all when I said that my Win10 machine
ran under VMware. They pretended that VMware could not handle
networks. But that's VMwares bread and butter.

To be fair, one can't expect a supplier to support *every* configuration
under which their tool/product might operate.

I've had products that were "only" supported on a specific make/model
of hard disk (really? will a disk that has the same geometry but
is made by a different manufacturer NOT work? will a larger disk
from the recommended manufacturer not work?). Conceivably, there
COULD be issues "baked into" their implementation that silently rely
on certain characteristics of the recommended drive. But, likely
not (OTOH, I recall having to patch the BIOS ROMs on my Compaq Portable
386 to get it to support a 300MB drive).

I ran DASH-STRIDES hosted on a Chimera II... installed in a SPARC (!)
SB2000... under CDE... over a network connection... to another PC.
Just *explaining* how all of that magic can work would be too much
to expect a support engineer to grok ("But STRIDES is an x86 application;
how did the SPARC handle that? And, how did you accommodate the
hardware product locks STRIDES required on that hardware??")

Of course, they aren't stupid and likely don't want to encourage
people to operate in environments that defeat their product
lock-ins as that's what pays their salaries. But, the problem there
is with their chosen implementation; expecting no one to sort this
out on their own is a bad assumption when your customers are engineers
and not basket-weavers!

They probably fear that it really could run forever or, even worse,
I could give a copy of the VM to everybody and his dog.

But you can still do that -- just not with their assistance.
And, you'd likely be more inclined to share your results
with others if the problem is more challenging.

"Design a product that people WANT to buy, not that they feel
COMPELLED/FORCED to buy."

The idea is that I cannot expose customer data to the net, so the
win10 world ends at the ext4 /d partition that is mapped to d:
by VMware and that contains the actual designs.

I do that by air-gapping my development environment and
sneaker-netting anything "out" (or in) as required. It
also mitigates the need for other protections mechanisms
that eat into productivity.

I have made a quick design of a 100 * 100 mm board with holes in
100mil raster and VCC & GND planes on top & below.
Yesterday, a friend paid me a visit and we tried to move the
entire Altium design to his KICad. That was a matter of minutes.

What you can do with a given tool -- or, tool generation -- varies.
In the mid-80's, doing SMT with tools that were designed for thru-hole technologies was "challenging". My current designs would likely
be impossible with those same tools (BGA425's in 13mm packages?
1000 connections per square inch? I suspect it wouldn't even have
been possible to specify DRCs with such a fine pitch in the "10 mil" era).

Similarly, expecting the tool to match trace lengths wasn't
an issue, back then. Or, 10-layer pad-stacks.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/2026 2:20 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.06.26 um 11:16 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

I found the problem myself. I had renamed an old Protel library
from .lib to .pcblib.

The whole notion of filenames carrying "type" information
is just stupid. Especially when names are so mutable!
Would Gerhard.girl suddenly change Gerhard.boy's sex?

Altium does not check the contents in any way and crashes.

Another mistake consequential to the use of "plain files"
for structured data. Think about all of the code that (should!)
be executing to verify the format and content of EVERY
file referenced by EVERY program!

Wouldn't it be simpler to ensure the contents are correct
before being "admitted" to the file -- and then constraining
further changes similarly? As such, any CONSUMER of that
content would be assured that it was consistent and in the
correct format for their expectations WITHOUT having to verify
that each time the contents are referenced?? Not having to
remember to take read&write locksWHILE referencing it in
an environment with multiple readers/writers?

[No, lets stick with a naive implementation of a file system
and (hopefully!) keep rewriting the same bits of code to
protect ourselves from what is not just possible but is
also increasingly *likely* (given multiple actors in any
given environment). But, hey, if that's the only technology
people are familiar with...]
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/26 19:44, Don Y wrote:

On 6/19/2026 2:20 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.06.26 um 11:16 schrieb Gerhard Hoffmann:

I found the problem myself. I had renamed an old Protel library
from .lib to .pcblib.

The whole notion of filenames carrying "type" information
is just stupid.-a Especially when names are so mutable!
Would Gerhard.girl suddenly change Gerhard.boy's sex?

Altium does not check the contents in any way and crashes.

Another mistake consequential to the use of "plain files"
for structured data.-a Think about all of the code that (should!)
be executing to verify the format and content of EVERY
file referenced by EVERY program!

Wouldn't it be simpler to ensure the contents are correct
before being "admitted" to the file -- and then constraining
further changes similarly?-a As such, any CONSUMER of that
content would be assured that it was consistent and in the
correct format for their expectations WITHOUT having to verify
that each time the contents are referenced??-a Not having to
remember to take read&write locksWHILE referencing it in
an environment with multiple readers/writers?

[No, lets stick with a naive implementation of a file system
and (hopefully!) keep rewriting the same bits of code to
protect ourselves from what is not just possible but is
also increasingly *likely* (given multiple actors in any
given environment).-a But, hey, if that's the only technology
people are familiar with...]

Oh yes, let's go back to OS/360 and JCL. So much better!

Jeroen Belleman
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/18/2026 11:46 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

My *car* isn't likely going to change (without a significant evaluation
process). So, why can't I just *buy* the tool? Price it so it makes
sense for the market into which you are selling it.

They will sell it if you want. This is what auto mechanics do who are in the car repair business -- they need it every day. it is not all that cheap but they do sell it.

On the other hand, there are lots of hacked pirated versions coming with Chinese OBD adapters and without. They DO work and can do [almost]
everything the legal version does except connecting to the Toyota data server. It is not critical for regular repairs / setups /configuration but
it can't reflash (or provision) any ECU as all firmware images are kept on their server. It is not even an attempt to somehow get control over a mere user -- there are simply too many ECUs in all Toyota cars (TechStream supports them all) and different versions of their firmware, specific for particular VINs and so on. It is simply impossible to fit them all in a
piece of software and to make a decision what version to pull based on a particular VIN.

But if you, e.g., replaced some ECUs you have to "marry" them to the rest of the vehicle that is not possible without a legal licensed TechStream. This where that one week license comes handy for those who fix their cars themselves.

I don't repair late model cars -- there's no money to be saved; treat those
as billable hours and pay for the repair with the monies earned (and far
too many things that can go wrong, leaving me at the *mercy* of a shop).

[In ages past, curiosity and an I-can-do-anything attitude would treat
each problem as a challenge, regardless of effort required or savings
to be had. Now, I realize there are far more interesting things to
spend my time on.]

But, I *do* use workshop manuals as references -- what's where, how
things fit together, etc. And, for diagnostic information. The
"check engine" mentality is just TOO lame for my mindset (can you
at least give me a *hint* at what the problem might be??) E.g.,
an overweight grease monkey happened to dislodge one of the seat
sensors in a prior vehicle (due to his size). Much easier to
look up the code that was being thrown and discover the opened
connector than make a repeat trip to the shop.

Currently, my interests are in sorting out how to extract/inject
signals into existing designs without compromising their normal
function (or, having to reverse engineer "substantial" designs.)

E.g., how can I access the main display in the dash? How can I
tell which evaporators are active in the refrigerator? Or,
determine the state of the controls on the oven/stovetop? How
can I determine which cooling stage the ACbrrr is operating in?

I used to buy Workshop Manuals for every car I owned. Even at a few hundred >> dollars a pop, it was convenient to be able to browse them AT MY OWN PACE
before and after problems arose.

I do also have 8-volume PRINTED shop manual for my Lexus LS460L but you can do almost nothing without TechStream. Maybe tighten some loose nut/bolt or replace something pure mechanical but even that is not always possible without sending some commands to the system first. TechStream finds 50+ ECUs in my LS460L (don't remember exact number -- it's been a while since I last talked to my vehicle) and each and every of those have settings and configuration. Some of them also have UNIQUE IDs so the system must be instructed to take a new ECU replacing the old ID otherwise it won't work properly and might even refuse to start.

My automation system is of similar design, of necessity (all interactions
are encrypted so a replacement module must be "formally *introduced*"
to the system else it won't be seen or acknowledged.

But, I've made that as simple as possible so an end user could perform
the task without requiring any special equipment or expertise. *I* dislike being placed in a situation where I *must* rely on another (for no REAL
reason) so don't think others should have to rely on *me* for the
same arbitrary reasons.


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/18/2026 8:41 PM, olaf wrote:

And yes, since we all have 3D printer now, there is now live without
3D-cad possible!

But 3D printing takes a fair bit of time. I can take a model
created from an actual design (as a "side effect") and verify
that the tall components on board 1 neatly fit over the short
components of board 2 (and /vice versa/) just by twiddling the
motion controller.

And, verify connectors, indicators, controls, etc. align properly
with the holes in the enclosure that will house them.

How can you determine if airflow over and around a set of
3D components will impact the thermal characteristics of
other components downstream to predict hotspots?

CAD isn't just a tool for designing products but, also, for
analyzing their characteristics before they have been reified.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/18/2026 11:46 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

My *car* isn't likely going to change (without a significant evaluation
process). So, why can't I just *buy* the tool? Price it so it makes
sense for the market into which you are selling it.

They will sell it if you want. This is what auto mechanics do who are in the >> car repair business -- they need it every day. it is not all that cheap but >> they do sell it.

On the other hand, there are lots of hacked pirated versions coming with
Chinese OBD adapters and without. They DO work and can do [almost]
everything the legal version does except connecting to the Toyota data
server. It is not critical for regular repairs / setups /configuration but >> it can't reflash (or provision) any ECU as all firmware images are kept on >> their server. It is not even an attempt to somehow get control over a mere >> user -- there are simply too many ECUs in all Toyota cars (TechStream
supports them all) and different versions of their firmware, specific for
particular VINs and so on. It is simply impossible to fit them all in a
piece of software and to make a decision what version to pull based on a
particular VIN.

But if you, e.g., replaced some ECUs you have to "marry" them to the rest of >> the vehicle that is not possible without a legal licensed TechStream. This >> where that one week license comes handy for those who fix their cars
themselves.

I don't repair late model cars -- there's no money to be saved; treat those as billable hours and pay for the repair with the monies earned (and far
too many things that can go wrong, leaving me at the *mercy* of a shop).

No money to be saved is something I can't even find words to characterize...

Lexus dealership, front upper control arms replacement quote, $13K. 4 upper control arms. 8 arms total in front suspension, can be easily found (aftermarket but as good as originals) for less than $300. All 8, not just 4 upper ones. And it is not just 8 control arms but also stearing tie rods
(inner and outer), sway bar links, rubber boots:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187237729343

Doing it the first time, 2 days on my driveway from start to finish. It is
not just upper arms replacement for $13K but entire new front suspension and stearing. Don't even know what dealeship would charge for that but even at
$13K -- do you earn that much for 2 days of billable hours?

[In ages past, curiosity and an I-can-do-anything attitude would treat
each problem as a challenge, regardless of effort required or savings
to be had. Now, I realize there are far more interesting things to
spend my time on.]

But, I *do* use workshop manuals as references -- what's where, how
things fit together, etc. And, for diagnostic information. The
"check engine" mentality is just TOO lame for my mindset (can you
at least give me a *hint* at what the problem might be??) E.g.,
an overweight grease monkey happened to dislodge one of the seat
sensors in a prior vehicle (due to his size). Much easier to
look up the code that was being thrown and discover the opened
connector than make a repeat trip to the shop.

Currently, my interests are in sorting out how to extract/inject
signals into existing designs without compromising their normal
function (or, having to reverse engineer "substantial" designs.)

E.g., how can I access the main display in the dash? How can I
tell which evaporators are active in the refrigerator? Or,
determine the state of the controls on the oven/stovetop? How
can I determine which cooling stage the ACbrrr is operating in?

I used to buy Workshop Manuals for every car I owned. Even at a few hundred
dollars a pop, it was convenient to be able to browse them AT MY OWN PACE >>> before and after problems arose.

I do also have 8-volume PRINTED shop manual for my Lexus LS460L but you can >> do almost nothing without TechStream. Maybe tighten some loose nut/bolt or >> replace something pure mechanical but even that is not always possible
without sending some commands to the system first. TechStream finds 50+ ECUs >> in my LS460L (don't remember exact number -- it's been a while since I last >> talked to my vehicle) and each and every of those have settings and
configuration. Some of them also have UNIQUE IDs so the system must be
instructed to take a new ECU replacing the old ID otherwise it won't work
properly and might even refuse to start.

My automation system is of similar design, of necessity (all interactions
are encrypted so a replacement module must be "formally *introduced*"
to the system else it won't be seen or acknowledged.

But, I've made that as simple as possible so an end user could perform
the task without requiring any special equipment or expertise. *I* dislike being placed in a situation where I *must* rely on another (for no REAL reason) so don't think others should have to rely on *me* for the
same arbitrary reasons.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/2026 12:49 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I don't repair late model cars -- there's no money to be saved; treat those >> as billable hours and pay for the repair with the monies earned (and far
too many things that can go wrong, leaving me at the *mercy* of a shop).

No money to be saved is something I can't even find words to characterize...

Lexus dealership, front upper control arms replacement quote, $13K. 4 upper control arms. 8 arms total in front suspension, can be easily found (aftermarket but as good as originals) for less than $300. All 8, not just 4 upper ones. And it is not just 8 control arms but also stearing tie rods (inner and outer), sway bar links, rubber boots:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187237729343

Doing it the first time, 2 days on my driveway from start to finish. It is not just upper arms replacement for $13K but entire new front suspension and stearing. Don't even know what dealeship would charge for that but even at $13K -- do you earn that much for 2 days of billable hours?

Hands up the number of people who have had $imilar "car problems"...

Did you *enjoy* the exercise? Did it come with some measure of
risk (bodily injury, vehicle damage, etc.)? Will you continue
to do it when you are 60? 70? Won't it save you just as much
money and be just as enjoyable??

I have friends with $300K-$1.5M vehicles. They rarely drive them,
let alone THINK about working on them. One *assumes* they get some
enjoyment out of *owning* them (otherwise, why take on that burden?)

I spend my time on things that I can't reasonably expect someone
else to do better or faster than I can do it (e.g., instrument
my refrigerator; allow me to broadcast video to the EXISTING display
in my car; etc.) If my car was costing me "too much" to own/operate,
I'd buy a different car! "It's just a car".

Perhaps you should look for a different make/model of vehicle?
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/2026 10:44 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 6/19/2026 2:20 AM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Altium does not check the contents in any way and crashes.

Another mistake consequential to the use of "plain files"
for structured data.-a Think about all of the code that (should!)
be executing to verify the format and content of EVERY
file referenced by EVERY program!

Wouldn't it be simpler to ensure the contents are correct
before being "admitted" to the file -- and then constraining
further changes similarly?-a As such, any CONSUMER of that
content would be assured that it was consistent and in the
correct format for their expectations WITHOUT having to verify
that each time the contents are referenced??-a Not having to
remember to take read&write locksWHILE referencing it in
an environment with multiple readers/writers?

phoneNumber = '(' + AreaCode + ')' + Phone

How many problems can plague this simple statement (assuming
AreaCode and Phone come from the parsing of a plaintext file?)

Will the code that parses the file know where *in* the file to find
these values? Will it be pedantic about ensuring their proper
format and range of values? Will it know how to address their
absence? Will it know how to perform those parses WHILE another
actor is potentially altering them, their location in the file
or the existence of the file, itself? Who/what will ensure any
human (or other agency) intervention obeys the rules?

Will the lexers (typically written /ad hoc/ as folks are reluctant
to let tools do this work FOR them) catch every possible syntax
variant? What if the file (manipulated by a human or other
agency) used tabs (or NULs!) instead of spaces to delimit fields?
Or, failed to terminate the file with a newline? Or, used the
"wrong" line termination throughout the file? You'll obviously
develop tests to check for all of these things, at some cost to
your development time, right?

Wouldn't it be simpler (and more reliable) to have an agency that's
responsible for maintaining that data and ensuring its integrity and
atomic access than leaving that to chance with a user-accessible
"text" file?

(We call such agencies DBMSs. Let *them* assume responsibility for
storing data and stop dicking around with arbitrary 'free format'
text files for that purpose. And, gain OTHER benefits like support
for upcalls from TRIGGERs in the DBMS to notify consumers of
changes to specific fields/records of interest!)

[Imagine changing an IP address in a table and having everything that
needed to be aware of that change suddenly informed about it -- instead
of rebooting a host or a service so they could discover it as they
started up...]

Imagine having part numbers in such a DBMS so the footprint,
pinout, schematic symbol, etc. was available without having to
HOPE the ".lib" file was intact.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/19/2026 12:49 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I don't repair late model cars -- there's no money to be saved; treat those >>> as billable hours and pay for the repair with the monies earned (and far >>> too many things that can go wrong, leaving me at the *mercy* of a shop).

No money to be saved is something I can't even find words to characterize... >>
Lexus dealership, front upper control arms replacement quote, $13K. 4 upper >> control arms. 8 arms total in front suspension, can be easily found
(aftermarket but as good as originals) for less than $300. All 8, not just 4 >> upper ones. And it is not just 8 control arms but also stearing tie rods
(inner and outer), sway bar links, rubber boots:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187237729343

Doing it the first time, 2 days on my driveway from start to finish. It is >> not just upper arms replacement for $13K but entire new front suspension and >> stearing. Don't even know what dealeship would charge for that but even at >> $13K -- do you earn that much for 2 days of billable hours?

Hands up the number of people who have had $imilar "car problems"...

Did you *enjoy* the exercise? Did it come with some measure of
risk (bodily injury, vehicle damage, etc.)? Will you continue
to do it when you are 60? 70? Won't it save you just as much
money and be just as enjoyable??

I'm 67 :) There is always risk, even getting off your bed in the morning.
The entire human's life is risk. Fixing your car is not different from
anything else if you are careful and know what you are doing.

And no matter what people might think, it IS fun. I like to do things with
my own hands. I do woodworking, machining, welding, PCB assembly (I even
have 2 Pick-and-Place machines, one older PRODUCTION one working like
machine gun and new current semi-professional Chinese one). That is besides
my hardware engineering that earns me my bread and butter and embedded / firmware programming as a part of that hardware engineering. It is what
makes me tick and what I really LOVE to do -- I don't drink alcohol, don't gamble and would shoult myself out of boredom if subjected to a do-nothing "vacation". Oh, and I have my own lab full of tools and measurement
equipment, many of which is metrology grade in current official calibration.

I have friends with $300K-$1.5M vehicles. They rarely drive them,
let alone THINK about working on them. One *assumes* they get some
enjoyment out of *owning* them (otherwise, why take on that burden?)

There are people that genuinely can't understand why those criminals kill
each other and risk their lives for mere $10,000,000 pocket change...

Those who have $1.5M vehicles will NOT bother with bolts and nuts. They live
in a different world so there is no sense to compare apples and oranges.

I spend my time on things that I can't reasonably expect someone
else to do better or faster than I can do it (e.g., instrument
my refrigerator; allow me to broadcast video to the EXISTING display
in my car; etc.) If my car was costing me "too much" to own/operate,
I'd buy a different car! "It's just a car".

Perhaps you should look for a different make/model of vehicle?

They all break and wear out. Lexus LS460L is a WONDERFUL car, very reliable,
a pleasure to drive, without stupid things like built-in champaigne bar and such. It is a rare luxury car made for the DRIVER, not for a buffon body on
the rear seat. Mine has just above 80K miles on it and it is where rubber
parts in suspension require replacement. Nothing special, just regular wear.
It was $100K+ when new in that period dollars so their dealerships think
people driving those never ask about price at all.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/19/2026 7:11 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 6/19/2026 12:49 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

I don't repair late model cars -- there's no money to be saved; treat those
as billable hours and pay for the repair with the monies earned (and far >>>> too many things that can go wrong, leaving me at the *mercy* of a shop). >>>

No money to be saved is something I can't even find words to characterize...

Lexus dealership, front upper control arms replacement quote, $13K. 4 upper >>> control arms. 8 arms total in front suspension, can be easily found
(aftermarket but as good as originals) for less than $300. All 8, not just 4
upper ones. And it is not just 8 control arms but also stearing tie rods >>> (inner and outer), sway bar links, rubber boots:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187237729343

Doing it the first time, 2 days on my driveway from start to finish. It is >>> not just upper arms replacement for $13K but entire new front suspension and
stearing. Don't even know what dealeship would charge for that but even at >>> $13K -- do you earn that much for 2 days of billable hours?

Hands up the number of people who have had $imilar "car problems"...

Did you *enjoy* the exercise? Did it come with some measure of
risk (bodily injury, vehicle damage, etc.)? Will you continue
to do it when you are 60? 70? Won't it save you just as much
money and be just as enjoyable??

I'm 67 :) There is always risk, even getting off your bed in the morning.
The entire human's life is risk. Fixing your car is not different from anything else if you are careful and know what you are doing.

So, the risk and inconvenience must offset the enjoyment and
other value you attribute to the activity. Being a grease monkey
doesn't have any value to me.

I see many people in the 60-70 age group that have back problems,
diminished strength or endurance, eyesight and hearing issues,
medication side effects that limit their physical activities
(one friend bruises so easily -- blood thinners -- that I
expect him to just start bleeding THROUGH his skin, RSN!) and
other health issues that have them focusing more on living
than on enjoying life!

And no matter what people might think, it IS fun. I like to do things with
my own hands. I do woodworking, machining, welding, PCB assembly (I even
have 2 Pick-and-Place machines, one older PRODUCTION one working like
machine gun and new current semi-professional Chinese one). That is besides my hardware engineering that earns me my bread and butter and embedded / firmware programming as a part of that hardware engineering. It is what
makes me tick and what I really LOVE to do -- I don't drink alcohol, don't gamble and would shoult myself out of boredom if subjected to a do-nothing "vacation". Oh, and I have my own lab full of tools and measurement equipment, many of which is metrology grade in current official calibration.

I've done enough "with my hands" over the years so the novelty has
worn off. Plumbed & wired extensions, replaced asphalt roofs,
built brick walls, shoveled snow, mowed lawns, felled trees,
landscaped yards, made clothing, worked leather, etc. *Once*
is educational; the second time its just a chore.

I want to spend my time creating things that I can't *buy* or hire
someone to *make* for me. If I can buy it -- and I want it -- then
I've already *got* it!

I've *never* taken a vacation -- despite having a wife who was an executive
in a travel agency, entitled to free trips as a perc. Never invested in a second home (as that would involve travel) which would have me forever wondering if some THING that I was searching for "was at the other place".

I don't maintain my (color) printers anymore because I can walk to the
nearby service bureau and PAY them to maintain *their* printers for me.
The quality isn't quite as good but it is sufficient for my needs.

I don't want to assemble prototypes because I can pay someone to do that for much less than the value of my time (opportunity costs). Past experiences
have taught me the issues to avoid in the design/layout that complicated
past efforts.

I don't want to *troubleshoot* designs "on the bench" anymore as they
should just *work* after fab (and, if they don't its because they weren't assembled properly). Ensuring it will work "first time" is worth much more than pushing the envelope with a design.

I don't want to deal with clients anymore as their ideas of what's "interesting" are usually at odds with mine -- most people have really
vanilla ideas for new products. The same to be said for "customers".

I don't want to dick with cars anymore as I've already had enough
experience under the hood that there is no novelty remaining. For
$200 I can buy a service tech's time and let him get *his* hands
dirty while I'm engaged with something more interesting.

I don't want to pick *oranges* anymore -- something that SWMBO is
unhappy about -- but I'd rather fly freshly picked (ripened on the
tree instead of in the back of a truck) fruit in from wherever
it's currently "in season" than take on that responsibility, here.
(besides, I dislike oranges)

SWMBO already has to remind me to *eat* as I consider THAT to be
a chore! (I would love to have a chef "on call" but they would
likely be disheartened by my lack of enthusiasm for their "works"
as I "eat to live" instead of "live to eat"!)

I *would* like to instrument a big V8 with an eye towards
seeing how much I could eke out of it on a dyno just by using
more adaptive algorithms. I've had discussions with a colleague
about how one could adapt the controls to the current needs
of the driver to balance fuel economy, emissions and power.

And, to make it fun, put it in a REALLY BIG land yacht (I'm watching
for a 61' Continental) with dynamically controlled hydraulics in
the suspension to literally let it skim the pavement (the trick
being sorting out how and when to lift WHICH portion to traverse
a bump in some part of the road surface).

[That's actually considerably harder than it appears]

I'm currently designing a Rube Goldberg timepiece as a bit
of "functional art" for the back yard. That will require
metalworking, plumbing, masonry and a bit of "fine arts"
with the control electronics being an amusing exercise to
ensure end-to-end timekeeping is spot-on.

[I previously had a 24-hour "sundial" deployed that would puzzle
people in its "regularity of appearance"]

I have friends with $300K-$1.5M vehicles. They rarely drive them,
let alone THINK about working on them. One *assumes* they get some
enjoyment out of *owning* them (otherwise, why take on that burden?)

There are people that genuinely can't understand why those criminals kill each other and risk their lives for mere $10,000,000 pocket change...

Those who have $1.5M vehicles will NOT bother with bolts and nuts. They live in a different world so there is no sense to compare apples and oranges.

My point was that I see no value in owning something that is just another expression of the cash you have at hand. Value comes in having something
that doesn't (yet) exist -- likely because they haven't yet THOUGHT of it! Seeing the surprise on someone's face when they understand the cleverness
of an idea or implementation.

[I used to enjoy making timepieces. An LED display (behind smoked glass)
that displayed the time -- in Braille (i.e., you have to be sighted to
SEE the display and, thus, part of a small population that can actually sight-read Braille as the typical users wouldn't be able to *perceive*
the display). A *dial* phone that spoke the time (in your voice) when
you lifted the handle -- the dial being used to specify the alarm time.
etc. Nothing magical but, rather, not "typical" or "expected"]

I spend my time on things that I can't reasonably expect someone
else to do better or faster than I can do it (e.g., instrument
my refrigerator; allow me to broadcast video to the EXISTING display
in my car; etc.) If my car was costing me "too much" to own/operate,
I'd buy a different car! "It's just a car".

Perhaps you should look for a different make/model of vehicle?

They all break and wear out. Lexus LS460L is a WONDERFUL car, very reliable, a pleasure to drive, without stupid things like built-in champaigne bar and such. It is a rare luxury car made for the DRIVER, not for a buffon body on the rear seat. Mine has just above 80K miles on it and it is where rubber parts in suspension require replacement. Nothing special, just regular wear. It was $100K+ when new in that period dollars so their dealerships think people driving those never ask about price at all.

In *another* 10 or 15 years, I *may* reach 80K miles. Because I consider driving to be just another chore. I'd much rather have our groceries and
other sundries *delivered* than have to spend the time to pick them up. But, think that practice to be too haughty and hard to hide.

I *really* want to be left alone to do my tinkering, solving problems
that *I* consider challenging without concern for a "market", etc. The enjoyment/satisfaction from seeing a raw idea come to fruition is
incredibly rewarding! Let other people worry about making money.

[I *really* would like to figure out a practical way of levitating
10-12 pound bowling balls at various heights to display the current
time of day. But, the physics is daunting. It *would* be a unique
time display, though!]
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 15:19:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>

wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure >>>>>anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other
CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light
pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and
can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure >>>things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is
half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/swr_box_LEDs.jpg

I have several of those boxes, with all sorts of designs in it
https://panteltje.nl/pub/lnb_ref_in_box_IMG_6678.JPG

All eurocard format, nice for RF stuff and .1 inch verobard without silly [golden] backplanes.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG

Old one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

The PeeSee addiction is a disaster
No good for small 1 of projects.

Raspberry Pi hat with veroboard and ebay modules, all .1 inch
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/raspi_add_on_compass_accelerometer_pressure_GPS_interface_IMG_4949.JPG

Mr dremel!


Have not used El Tea Spice in many years
Like that tennis player, live, versus the math guy with his calculator
Who wins?
LOL




Anyways, they nopw ting how did thse Egyption build the Pyramids...

There were bigger pyramids in South America.

Soon if anything is left of humanity after trump's nuke wars

He's trying to keep Iran from nuking Israel, which they were probably >planning to do.

No he is an insane ego-tripper, now making 'peace' as he is scared Democrats will win
enough votes in congress to impeach him and to deport him to Cuba, Guantanamo_Bay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

trump may start war again any time he thinks he can get away with it.
Ii is all about him.
Not for the American people
Obama was the last president who actually CARED about the American people, AND the world

You will sell to the Devil is payed for.

But then I do not believe in the Devil and Adam and Eve

More in all those nano_nano organisms fighting and eating each other in evolution
resulting, among many other species, in us and even trump..
May the best one win.
Nukes? Pakistan as mediator, break promises to them and there you go.
It only takes 3 nukes on is-a-hell and who exactly is opposed to that right now?


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On Sat, 20 Jun 2026 05:36:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 15:19:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure >>>>>>anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an other
CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light >>>>pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and
can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure >>>>things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is
half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/swr_box_LEDs.jpg

I have several of those boxes, with all sorts of designs in it
https://panteltje.nl/pub/lnb_ref_in_box_IMG_6678.JPG

All eurocard format, nice for RF stuff and .1 inch verobard without silly [golden] backplanes.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG

Old one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

The PeeSee addiction is a disaster
No good for small 1 of projects.

Raspberry Pi hat with veroboard and ebay modules, all .1 inch
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/raspi_add_on_compass_accelerometer_pressure_GPS_interface_IMG_4949.JPG

Mr dremel!


Have not used El Tea Spice in many years
Like that tennis player, live, versus the math guy with his calculator >>>Who wins?
LOL




Anyways, they nopw ting how did thse Egyption build the Pyramids...

There were bigger pyramids in South America.

Soon if anything is left of humanity after trump's nuke wars

He's trying to keep Iran from nuking Israel, which they were probably >>planning to do.

No he is an insane ego-tripper, now making 'peace' as he is scared Democrats will win
enough votes in congress to impeach him and to deport him to Cuba, Guantanamo_Bay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

trump may start war again any time he thinks he can get away with it.
Ii is all about him.
Not for the American people
Obama was the last president who actually CARED about the American people, AND the world

This is his gift to us:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjlYW8esKq7UGyEv2MUH8k7tMXpgGbw05ps17Dq6ChTz0SOhD-1CxY7j4&s=10

"A Klingon prison"


John Larkin
Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
Lunatic Fringe Electronics
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"That has always been the "a little bit pregnant" hook that all EDA tools | |had; you invest in developing libraries which means switching to another | |tool represents forfeiting one investment and taking on another. So, you | |didn't jump around between products (like you could office suites, compilers,| |desktops, etc.) | | | |One consolation is you don't see these firms rolling in the dough | |as their pricing would make you *think*. And, individual shops can | |just decide to STOP using a tool [. . .] | |[. . .]" | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Cf. early Ada compilers.
(S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/22/2026 1:41 PM, Niocl|is P||l Caile|in de Ghloucester wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"That has always been the "a little bit pregnant" hook that all EDA tools |
|had; you invest in developing libraries which means switching to another |
|tool represents forfeiting one investment and taking on another. So, you |
|didn't jump around between products (like you could office suites, compilers,|
|desktops, etc.) |
| |
|One consolation is you don't see these firms rolling in the dough |
|as their pricing would make you *think*. And, individual shops can |
|just decide to STOP using a tool [. . .] |
|[. . .]" |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Cf. early Ada compilers.

This is true of much commercial (end-user) software and, hence, the
drive behind the various "copy protection" schemes that have evolved,
over the years.

I have a dozen or more $2k compiler/assembler/linker/debugger suites
(each targeting a specific CPU). Yet, know the vendor wasn't getting
rich at that price (as he still has to *support* each of those sales
when the purchasers might not be competent enough to use them as
intended!)

"Why is MS Visual C++ so much cheaper??"

I paid $3K for my AutoCAD license in 1986 -- and immediately issued
a ticket for a bug in the product; had they had few customers over
which to amortize that fix, they would have already been operating at
a loss.

OTOH, I recall JRTPascal being sold for $19.95 (?) -- you couldn't
photocopy the manual for that price! (JK)

Note the trend for USERS to provide support for vendors' products
(forums). Fine if you have competent users who are willing to
invest their time THERE instead of actually using the product for
its designed purpose.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Sat, 20 Jun 2026 05:36:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>

wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 15:19:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 05:13:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2nwcwt2avcubwqxl4ajy9/B-box_SW_1.jpg?rlkey=4urgowi6o4slj4p2py74hulas&raw=1

This is fabulous. All the parts, dims, PCB parts. I can measure >>>>>>>anything or view from any angle.

How did we ever live without 3D CAD software?

What a lot of crap, a box like that I can assemble from what I have laying about in less time than playing with yet an
other
CAD or cat! or whatever .

We designed the extrusions ourselves. The Hammond boxes ARE crap.

We can 3D design the box, the PC boards, the end plates, the light >>>>>pipes, the connector locations, and be sure everything will fit and >>>>>can be manufactured repeatably.

Being able to see it all in the 3D viewer, spin it around, measure >>>>>things, is a huge aid to thinking about the design. Electronics is >>>>>half packaging.

You couldn't to this

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxvijivcysuu1o2ujluc8/ISS_1.jpg?rlkey=44ymlun7zo9prmouxl3zt7n0o&raw=1

out of your junk bin.

?
https://panteltje.nl/pub/swr_box_LEDs.jpg

I have several of those boxes, with all sorts of designs in it
https://panteltje.nl/pub/lnb_ref_in_box_IMG_6678.JPG

All eurocard format, nice for RF stuff and .1 inch verobard without silly [golden] backplanes.
https://panteltje.nl/pub/gamma_spectrometer_plus_probe_plus_geiger_counter_2_IMG_4185.JPG

Old one:
https://panteltje.nl/pub/8052AH_BASIC_computer/8052AH_BASIC_computer_inside2_img_1757.jpg

The PeeSee addiction is a disaster
No good for small 1 of projects.

Raspberry Pi hat with veroboard and ebay modules, all .1 inch
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/xgpspc/raspi_add_on_compass_accelerometer_pressure_GPS_interface_IMG_4949.JPG

Mr dremel!


Have not used El Tea Spice in many years
Like that tennis player, live, versus the math guy with his calculator >>>>Who wins?
LOL




Anyways, they nopw ting how did thse Egyption build the Pyramids...

There were bigger pyramids in South America.

Soon if anything is left of humanity after trump's nuke wars

He's trying to keep Iran from nuking Israel, which they were probably >>>planning to do.

No he is an insane ego-tripper, now making 'peace' as he is scared Democrats will win
enough votes in congress to impeach him and to deport him to Cuba, Guantanamo_Bay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

trump may start war again any time he thinks he can get away with it.
Ii is all about him.
Not for the American people
Obama was the last president who actually CARED about the American people, AND the world

This is his gift to us:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjlYW8esKq7UGyEv2MUH8k7tMXpgGbw05ps17Dq6ChTz0SOhD-1CxY7j4&s=10

"A Klingon prison"

Aliens
I suggested in an other newsgroup that SETI should send an SOS asking aliens to treat human beings as a protected species
maybe keep some in their zoos as the evil earthling leader trump is trying to destroy all in a nuclear war.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Am 23.06.26 um 08:08 schrieb Jan Panteltje:

Aliens
I suggested in an other newsgroup that SETI should send an SOS asking aliens to treat human beings as a protected species
maybe keep some in their zoos as the evil earthling leader trump is trying to destroy all in a nuclear war.

No, they should leave us alone and put DT & Co into the zoo.


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>wrote:

Am 23.06.26 um 08:08 schrieb Jan Panteltje:

Aliens
I suggested in an other newsgroup that SETI should send an SOS asking aliens to treat human beings as a protected species
maybe keep some in their zoos as the evil earthling leader trump is trying to destroy all in a nuclear war.

No, they should leave us alone and put DT & Co into the zoo.

Yes, but I am very interested in the alien technology!
Get a hike in their flying saucers?

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"I have a dozen or more $2k compiler/assembler/linker/debugger suites"| |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Early Ada compilers used to cost much more.
(S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: sci.electronics.design

On 6/25/2026 12:57 PM, Niocl|is P||l Caile|in de Ghloucester wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"I have a dozen or more $2k compiler/assembler/linker/debugger suites"| |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Early Ada compilers used to cost much more.

As they should. C (esp early K&R) was pretty much an /ad hoc/ "product"; little standardization, validation, etc. As long as the code generated *appeared* to perform the actions requested in the sources, no one
really complained. Lots is left to the "implementation" to define (so,
code had to be deliberately written to be "portable" and was still subject
to surprises. "Optimization" was typically only peephole optimizers,
*if* that.

OTOH, tools designed for "desktop" use were considerably cheaper as the
market was considerably *larger* and not as varied; all PCs were x86
so *an* x86 toolchain could see thousands of users. OTOH, the number of
folks writing code for 2A03s or 6100's was probably a large handful (?)

But, when you have to dole out $2K for each different processor that you're going to design into a product, it starts to get expensive.

In a single shop, one could CHOOSE to standardize on a particular processor/family. There are some (often only *imagined*) benefits to
doing so -- the learning curve for tools, the ability to reuse codebases, etc.

But, when each client has their own requirements and preferences ("We're a Motorola shop..."), you're stuck with THEIR constraints. This particularly annoying when the boss *was* an engineer (and is now woefully out of
touch with the current state of technology) and has his own "ideas" as
to how a design should unfold.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2