On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:Then there's "beakiation" among parrots. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
<snip to get to your words, Daud>This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which >>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth: >>>>>>>>>>It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:Is this a joke?-a Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpsonBipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. >>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown >>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi >>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like >>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated >>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi >>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the >>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is >>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in >>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail >>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is >>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone >>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex >>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite >>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone >>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, >>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
hominoids, spider monkeys)?
dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
boggles the mind.
forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be >>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
don't have to.-a Why would anyone try to breed some that could?-a Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses?-a After all, they work well for elephants.-a I don't see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would cooperate.
On 2/1/24 9:35 AM, erik simpson wrote:I hadn't thought of that - I'll log in to GoFundMe right away.
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpsonIs this a joke?-a Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson >>>>>> wrote:paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, >>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. >>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between >>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. >>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: >>>>>>>>>>> *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. >>>>>>>>>>> Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, >>>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to
support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes >>>>>>>>>>> of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached >>>>>>>>>>> to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based >>>>>>>>>>> plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have >>>>>>>>>>> resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats. >>>>>>>>>>>
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
shown in slow motion (8x slow),
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like >>>>>>>>> tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi >>>>>>>>> is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone >>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb >>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This >>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern >>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex >>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are
quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone >>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in
bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
boggles the mind.
forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might
be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, >>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required? >>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
don't have to.-a Why would anyone try to breed some that could?-a Why
not a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses?-a After all, they work well for elephants.-a I don't
see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who
would cooperate.
You might be able to interest hereditary priests of Ganesh.
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:Hoatzins fly rather than brachiate, but they eat foliage, often along forested rivers.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which >>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physicsIs this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would cooperate.
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
Is this a joke?-a Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because theyActually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineeringBipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different pathsActually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if thePrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown >>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),69jp...@gmail.com wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi >>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like >>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated >>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi >>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is >>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in >>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail >>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is >>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite >>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, >>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
hominoids, spider monkeys)?
dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
boggles the mind.
forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
don't have to.-a Why would anyone try to breed some that could?-a Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses?-a After all, they work well for elephants.-a I don't see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would cooperate.
On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:Monkey & parrot symbiosis https://x.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1757814956722889141?s=20
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:Why answer a 2 year old thread.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote: >>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson >>>>> wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why notActually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineeringRequesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin intoActually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if thePrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, >>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaursThanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. >>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between >>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. >>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown >>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),69jp...@gmail.com wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi >>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like >>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated >>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi >>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the >>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is >>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in >>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail >>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is >>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone >>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb >>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This >>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern >>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex >>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite >>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone >>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, >>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
boggles the mind.
forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be >>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, >>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required? >>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths >>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would cooperate.
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:47:52rC>AM UTC-5, Popping Mad wrote:That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:Why answer a 2 year old thread.
On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44rC>PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote: >>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote: >>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson >>>>>>> wrote:
On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
daud....@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why notActually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineeringRequesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin intoActually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the >>>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be >>>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a fewPrimates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, >>>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaursThanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. >>>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between >>>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. >>>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown >>>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),69jp...@gmail.com wrote:Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of >>>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video >>>>>>>>>>>>> whichIt's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in >>>>>>>>>>>> the thread
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on >>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its >>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at >>>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi >>>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like >>>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated >>>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a >>>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi >>>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the >>>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is >>>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in >>>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings >>>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it? >>>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, >>>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail >>>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify >>>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is >>>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone >>>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger >>>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb >>>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered >>>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This >>>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern >>>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the >>>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
[1]
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex >>>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite >>>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice >>>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone >>>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present >>>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, >>>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
boggles the mind.
favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, >>>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required? >>>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths >>>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.
sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. >>>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion. >>> Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see >>> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
cooperate.
Monkey & parrot symbiosis https://x.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1757814956722889141?s=20
That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
monkey how to fly.
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