• "When the Hell Does D&D Start?" - What Gary Gygax Would Say About 5e

    From Ubiquitous@weberm@polaris.net to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sat Jul 18 00:04:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    Imagine Gary Gygax walks into a game store today. A group is playing D&D.
    He sits down to watch. The wizard has unlimited cantrips. Nobody tracks rations u goodberry. Nobody tracks torches u infinite light spells. Nobody tracks encumbrance u bags of holding. The party finishes a fight, takes a
    long rest in a dangerous dungeon, and wakes up completely restored. After 20 minutes, Gary asks: "So when the hell does D&D start?" Here's my claim: Gary would hate modern D&D. Fight me on it. Not because he was nostalgic u he wasn't. He rewrote rules constantly, added supplements, changed monsters, loved to innovate. But innovation isn't the same thing as gutting the game's actual engine. And D&D's actual engine was ATTRITION. Everything was always running out. Food, arrows, hit points, hirelings, spell slots, torches, time. Every room cost resources. Every decision was a claim on something you couldn't get back. The dungeon wasn't a hallway connecting balanced encounters u it was a survival puzzle. Combat was expensive. The smartest players AVOIDED it. And every great story you tell at the bar about D&D comes from a moment where you were under pressure and pulled something out of thin air. Modern D&D removed all of that. And you can bring it all back tonight without playing a single old-school ruleset. Track your light. Track your food. Use encumbrance. Eliminate bags of holding. Take away unlimited cantrips. The scarcity IS the game. Gary knew it. You can know it too.

    00:00 Gary Gygax walks into a game store u watches 5e for 20 minutes u "When the hell does D&D start?"
    00:46 Gary would HATE modern D&D u fight me on it
    01:05 Gary wasn't nostalgic u he innovated constantly, rewrote rules, loved change
    01:30 Innovation isn't gutting the game engine u the title stayed, everything else shifted
    01:45 The actual game engine was ATTRITION u everything was always running out
    02:05 Every decision was a claim on resources u food, arrows, hit points, spell slots, time
    02:16 Dungeons were survival puzzles u combat was EXPENSIVE, the smartest players avoided it
    02:45 Who tracks torches? Rations? Encumbrance? Strict time? Nobody. The pressure system disappeared.
    03:00 Without scarcity there's no retreat. Without retreat, no tension. Without tension, choices don't matter.
    03:20 The biggest philosophical change: old-school = player skill, modern = character skill
    03:47 One torch sputtering out, fighter nearly dead, treasure deeper in u WHAT DO YOU DO?
    04:20 You don't need to play AD&D to make your 5e game old-school u just bring back scarcity
    04:35 Track light, remove unlimited cantrips, track food, remove goodberry, use encumbrance
    05:00 Meaningful choices, genuine risk u every bar story about D&D comes from being under pressure
    05:18 The free house rules on Substack u make your 5e old-school tonight 05:40 Online campaign starting this fall u Patreon, Substack, join the channel

    https://youtu.be/zy4jwzsAPS0?si=oOYx5Is141h7wPOo
    --
    Democrats and the liberal media hate President Trump more than they
    love this country.

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  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sat Jul 18 08:36:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    Verily, in article <113fci8$3dmnh$3@dont-email.me>, did
    weberm@polaris.net deliver unto us this message:
    And D&D's actual engine was ATTRITION. Everything was always
    running out. Food, arrows, hit points, hirelings, spell slots, torches, time.
    Every room cost resources.

    Hmm. I'm not sure that's all there is to it. I am currently running an
    OSRIC campaign, so you know I like it old-school, but it's not just
    attrition. That only really applied at lower levels. By the time the
    players were 3rd level or so, they had enough gold to supply themselves
    with basics like torches and arrows.

    The need to keep track of such things did increase the grit, but IMO the
    more learnable rule system was better. It was also less predetermined. Character growth happened through roleplaying, not with fixed beats in a planned arc.

    I tried a 5e game, and character creation was a crazy process. I
    onboarded a newbie to the OSRIC game, and she had a good character in
    about ten minutes. Immediately after, everyone was having fun.
    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.
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  • From Gottfried Neuner@kyonshi@wilderland.ovh to rec.games.frp.dnd on Wed Aug 12 19:07:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On 7/18/2026 2:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Verily, in article <113fci8$3dmnh$3@dont-email.me>, did
    weberm@polaris.net deliver unto us this message:
    And D&D's actual engine was ATTRITION. Everything was always
    running out. Food, arrows, hit points, hirelings, spell slots, torches, time.
    Every room cost resources.

    Hmm. I'm not sure that's all there is to it. I am currently running an
    OSRIC campaign, so you know I like it old-school, but it's not just attrition. That only really applied at lower levels. By the time the
    players were 3rd level or so, they had enough gold to supply themselves
    with basics like torches and arrows.

    The need to keep track of such things did increase the grit, but IMO the
    more learnable rule system was better. It was also less predetermined. Character growth happened through roleplaying, not with fixed beats in a planned arc.

    I tried a 5e game, and character creation was a crazy process. I
    onboarded a newbie to the OSRIC game, and she had a good character in
    about ten minutes. Immediately after, everyone was having fun.


    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow
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  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM to rec.games.frp.dnd on Wed Aug 12 13:36:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115i98k$1ogkb$2
    @wilderland.ovh>:
    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow


    What's B/X? I'm always in search of quick rulesets for pickup
    games.
    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Spalls Hurgenson@spallshurgenson@gmail.com to rec.games.frp.dnd on Wed Aug 12 14:12:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On Wed, 12 Aug 2026 19:07:32 +0200, Gottfried Neuner
    <kyonshi@wilderland.ovh> said this thing:

    On 7/18/2026 2:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Verily, in article <113fci8$3dmnh$3@dont-email.me>, did
    weberm@polaris.net deliver unto us this message:
    And D&D's actual engine was ATTRITION. Everything was always
    running out. Food, arrows, hit points, hirelings, spell slots, torches, time.
    Every room cost resources.

    Hmm. I'm not sure that's all there is to it. I am currently running an
    OSRIC campaign, so you know I like it old-school, but it's not just
    attrition. That only really applied at lower levels. By the time the
    players were 3rd level or so, they had enough gold to supply themselves
    with basics like torches and arrows.

    The need to keep track of such things did increase the grit, but IMO the
    more learnable rule system was better. It was also less predetermined.
    Character growth happened through roleplaying, not with fixed beats in a
    planned arc.

    I tried a 5e game, and character creation was a crazy process. I
    onboarded a newbie to the OSRIC game, and she had a good character in
    about ten minutes. Immediately after, everyone was having fun.


    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow

    It depended on the intent of the game and the players, but I used a
    variety of methods. But the 'easiest' (at least on the part of the new
    player) was having them start to play the game first as a game of
    'let's pretend', and then developing the character sheet around that.
    You know; you start with the very basic questions ("do you want to be
    somebody like Conan the Barbarian, or Gandalf, or a sneaky thief
    character?" to get a basic idea, then dump them into an easy
    proto-adventure and have them work out the rest as you play.

    [My default proto-adventure for these scenarios? "You've
    been kidnapped by someone and tossed into some underground
    location. You need to escape before they get back." When
    they finally get loose, they climb the stairs to find themselves
    in the default starting tavern where they can meet the other
    players and start the adventure proper.]

    Things like race, gender, age and background were, of course, up to
    the player and often could be put off for quite a while as the player
    figured things out. Things like basic attributes usually were
    determined as they came up. E.g., "Oh, you want to pick up that heavy
    log? Well, let's see how strong you are; roll 4D6 and drop the lowest
    result."

    It's a bit time consuming and works best one-on-one (or with a very
    small group; three or less players) but it eases players into the
    rules. And obviously, you can't throw them into the 'real' adventure
    until you figure out the basics.

    It's not an original method, of course; the BECMI rules actually
    introduced the game to a player this way, and I think there were
    actually some 1st (or 2nd?) Edition AD&D modules that were built
    around the concept. It's certainly not a method I frequently used.
    More often I just asked the players to create their own or provided
    them with a pre-generated character that they could either use
    unaltered or gave them a grace period to tinker with as the adventure
    rolled on.

    I've gotten new players who had no familiarity with tabletop gaming to
    start characters this way. But, as always, tailor your method to the
    needs and desires of the other players. DMing can be hard and
    demanding work, but *nothing* beats the satisfaction of a player
    coming around afterwards and saying, "man, I really had fun this
    time."








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  • From Gottfried Neuner@kyonshi@wilderland.ovh to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sat Aug 15 13:54:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On 8/12/2026 7:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115i98k$1ogkb$2
    @wilderland.ovh>:
    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow


    What's B/X? I'm always in search of quick rulesets for pickup
    games.


    Basic and Expert DnD, a lot of the retroclones nowadays are clones of
    that one, so it's easy to get (the big clone lately is Old School
    Essentials)
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  • From The True Melissa@thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sat Aug 15 08:34:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115pk2d$1tfr6$1
    @wilderland.ovh>:

    On 8/12/2026 7:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115i98k$1ogkb$2
    @wilderland.ovh>:
    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow


    What's B/X? I'm always in search of quick rulesets for pickup
    games.


    Basic and Expert DnD, a lot of the retroclones nowadays are clones of
    that one, so it's easy to get (the big clone lately is Old School Essentials)

    There's also a clone of Basic specifically, Swords and something,
    not Swords and Sorcery.

    I recall Basic as a good game for children. I loved it when I was
    8-10, but by the time I was 12, it was too simplistic.

    It's definitely easy to get going with Basic, though.
    --
    The meek shall inherit, we're told,
    But I'm not so easily sold.
    For supposing they should,
    It would do them no good --
    They'd lose it at once to the bold.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Gottfried Neuner@kyonshi@wilderland.ovh to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sun Aug 16 12:26:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On 8/15/2026 2:34 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115pk2d$1tfr6$1
    @wilderland.ovh>:

    On 8/12/2026 7:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115i98k$1ogkb$2
    @wilderland.ovh>:
    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow


    What's B/X? I'm always in search of quick rulesets for pickup
    games.


    Basic and Expert DnD, a lot of the retroclones nowadays are clones of
    that one, so it's easy to get (the big clone lately is Old School
    Essentials)

    There's also a clone of Basic specifically, Swords and something,
    not Swords and Sorcery.

    I recall Basic as a good game for children. I loved it when I was
    8-10, but by the time I was 12, it was too simplistic.

    It's definitely easy to get going with Basic, though.


    Lots of people (myself included) have found that the simplicity is what
    they are craving. I find ADnD even as OSRIC a bit too complex to easily
    run on the table. B/X is easier to run and modify the way I want it to.
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  • From Spalls Hurgenson@spallshurgenson@gmail.com to rec.games.frp.dnd on Sun Aug 16 13:05:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On Sun, 16 Aug 2026 12:26:41 +0200, Gottfried Neuner
    <kyonshi@wilderland.ovh> said this thing:

    On 8/15/2026 2:34 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115pk2d$1tfr6$1
    @wilderland.ovh>:

    On 8/12/2026 7:36 PM, The True Melissa wrote:
    Gottfried Neuner wrote in article <115i98k$1ogkb$2
    @wilderland.ovh>:
    do you one better: onboard them onto B/X and you can have a usable
    character in 2 minutes, 5 if you're really slow


    What's B/X? I'm always in search of quick rulesets for pickup
    games.


    Basic and Expert DnD, a lot of the retroclones nowadays are clones of
    that one, so it's easy to get (the big clone lately is Old School
    Essentials)

    There's also a clone of Basic specifically, Swords and something,
    not Swords and Sorcery.

    I recall Basic as a good game for children. I loved it when I was
    8-10, but by the time I was 12, it was too simplistic.

    It's definitely easy to get going with Basic, though.


    Lots of people (myself included) have found that the simplicity is what
    they are craving. I find ADnD even as OSRIC a bit too complex to easily
    run on the table. B/X is easier to run and modify the way I want it to.

    TSR did the system a disservice by dividing it into "Basic" and
    "Advanced". Had they given them different names ("Classic" and "New",
    perhaps?) it might have caused less partisanship between users. So
    many people saw the "Basic" label and assumed it was the 'kiddified'
    version of the game and gravitated towards Advanced without taking the
    actual rules into consideration.

    I admired Basic for how well it --especially the Mentzer Red Box--
    eased new players into the game, but the entirity of the BECMI system
    turned me off with how much baggage it carried: the fact that dwarves
    and elves were classes (rather than races), the default game-world,
    the system's cosmology that became standardized with the release of
    the Immortal set. AD&D allowed a more granular adaptation of the rules
    to your own game-world. Which isn't to say you couldn't do the same
    with BECMI, but that system really pushed hard (and later was built
    around) the Known World setting.

    Modern B/X system revisions, of course, strip away much of this
    baggage, making them more adaptable. Still, I'm familiar with the
    older AD&D systems and have always held it's more the players (and DM)
    that make a game fun than the rules, and transitioning to a system
    we're not as familiar with just never seemed worth the effort.

    Well, mostly. I mean, it's not as if we were using Rolemaster ;-)

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