• [Screenrant] After 5e, Old-School D&D Now Means The Opposite Of What It Used To

    From Kyonshi@gmkeros@gmail.com to rec.games.frp.dnd on Mon Mar 31 16:38:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    Source: https://screenrant.com/dnd-2024-old-school-revival-5e-op-ed/

    After 5e, Old-School D&D Now Means The Opposite Of What It Used To


    By Derek Garcia
    Published Mar 1, 2025


    For veteran tabletop RPG fans like me, it can be hard to discuss changes
    in Dungeons & Dragons and other games with newer hobbyists, because game design concepts that were old have become new again, and newer
    advancements in design are perceived as old. I started playing tabletop
    RPGs with 2e Advanced DnD. The game was a mishmash of different systems pretending to be one game, with percentiles used for certain thief
    abilities, a roll high d20-based system for certain checks, roll low for others. I happily left 2e DnD behind, but old-school gaming has
    returned, muddying the RPG waters.

    The Old School Renaissance (alternately, Revival or Revolution) trend in
    RPGs has been around for a while, and there are many great OSR tabletop
    RPGs that excel in capturing the vibe of DnD from last century, often
    paired with some modern design conventions. Many of these games are
    quality products, and OSR has certainly established itself as a genre,
    rather than a fad, in the hobby. The problem arises when the throwback
    ideals of OSR are treated as the norm for RPGs, or even misinterpreted
    as progress, rather than the nostalgic regressions they are, and DnD absolutely should have stayed away from OSR mechanics.
    Since 2000, D&D Was About Advancing The Hobby
    From 2e To 3e, and 3e To 4e, D&D Consistently Focused On Improving Itself

    When looking at every edition of Dungeons & Dragons prior to 5e, there
    was a clear pattern and trajectory for the game. DnD has long been the
    market leader in most regions among tabletop RPGs, but starting with the release of 3.0 DnD in 2000, the game seemed like it also wanted to
    advance game design, and maybe the hobby at large, with each new
    iteration. Third edition DnD was a godsend after the nightmarish design
    of 2e, for me, abandoning nonsense like asymmetrical experience charts
    among classes, and rolled statistics, thanks to the introduction of a
    point buy option.

    While some DnD editions were in print longer than others, each revision
    seemed to have a clear goal and mission statement to improve it over its predecessor. The 2e DnD game was entirely focused on combat, with no consideration for other types of challenges or fantasy storytelling.
    Third edition DnD added a robust skill system, which legitimized social
    skills and other specialties. It pared down a confusing, bloated list of saving throws to three intuitive saves, and made tactical grid-based
    combat more rewarding, while aiming for improved game balance. The 3.5 revision helped smooth out many of 3.0rCOs rough edges.

    Many consider 4e DnD a deeply divisive game, but in truth, it was
    absolutely the ideal design advancement from the 3.5 system. Pathfinder continued the legacy of 3.5 in its first system, but contrary to some
    fansrCO perceptions, 4e DnD was more financially successful than
    Pathfinder, as well as both 3.0 and 3.5 DnD. Once a large company like
    Hasbro becomes involved, simply being more successful than the
    competition is not enough, however. Instead of continuing to advance and improve on DnDrCOs game design, as 4e did over 3e, the focus shifted to rCLmoney left on the table,rCY not quality.

    D&D Should Not Have Chased The OSR Movement's Fans
    Competing With The Brilliant OSR Games Already Available Was A Bad Idea

    Some saw DnDrCOs 2024 PlayerrCOs Handbook as a new edition, but it operates
    as more of a lateral move to the 2014 5e rules, not a real improvement,
    when taken as a whole. The original 5e rules were a bit worse, in that
    regard, as they represented a calculated step backwards for the game, intentionally ignoring much of 4e DnDrCOs forward momentum in design to embrace a throwback mentality. It is evident that this was done to court
    those who skipped 4e DnD for Pathfinder 1e, and those who turned to OSR alternatives to DnD. This was a huge mistake.

    Every 5e DnD Starter Set is beginner-friendly because the system is
    incredibly simple, the most streamlined edition since certain versions
    of Basic DnD. This is great for onboarding entirely new players to the tabletop RPG hobby, but other design choices were clearly aimed at
    luring OSR fans back from their real games of choice. The 5e designers
    knew the rCLright answerrCY in many cases and simply chose to ignore it. The game could have mandated the use of point buy, and flat Hit Point
    increases with level-ups, instead of rolled hit dice, but it presents
    these solely as options.

    Feats are integral to the balance of 5e DnDrCOs martial characters, but
    the 2014 rules presented Feats as optional, which is one element the
    2024 revision fixed. The decision to make Feats optional was a blatant
    effort to attract OSR fans, along with pushing the notion that magic
    items are entirely at the Dungeon MasterrCOs discretion, and not required
    for party balance, when the gamerCOs design proved otherwise. Discussing
    these changes with newer fans is hard, since the old-school design of 5e
    is a throwback, but because it was published more recently than 4e, many perceive it as new.

    2024 D&D Is Currently Caught Between Worlds
    The Game Wants OSR Fans, Which Holds The System Back From Growth

    With all three core books now released, it is clear 2024 DnD is still extremely ambiguous, and the major driver of that ambiguity is the
    gamerCOs desire to be all things to all people, instead of aiming to be
    the best game it can be. It is caught between worlds, as it relies
    heavily on design advancements of 4e, like Short Rests, subclasses, and bounded accuracy, but still wants to avoid committing to any design
    choices that might frighten off OSR fans, or those who jumped ship for PathfinderrCOs first edition. Instead, 2024 DnD offloads design decisions
    to the DM.

    The OSR movement has its own games that earned their own fanbases. They
    may have been inspired by DnDrCOs 20th-century entries, but games like Shadowdark, Worlds Without Number, and M||rk Borg all have their own
    identity that is well-earned. DnD could have continued to pioneer
    advancing design for the hobby, and its flagship fantasy game, and left
    its legacy to the successors in the OSR. Instead, it wants to have it
    all, leading to a confounding environment where old and new are
    conflated. Dungeons & Dragons has flipped the script on new and old, and
    all TTRPGs suffer for it.

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  • From Spalls Hurgenson@spallshurgenson@gmail.com to rec.games.frp.dnd on Mon Mar 31 16:56:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

    On Mon, 31 Mar 2025 16:38:09 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

    Source: https://screenrant.com/dnd-2024-old-school-revival-5e-op-ed/

    After 5e, Old-School D&D Now Means The Opposite Of What It Used To


    I think D&D could move away from the old OSR-holdouts /if/ Hasbro/WOTC
    put in the effort to give us something new; new settings, new
    adventures, new resources designed around the super-heroic style of
    modern tabletop. But for whatever reason, they prefer to leave that
    sort of thing up to its fans and third-party authors. The corporation
    is too wrapped up in its old properties, which are tightly engaged
    with the old school style, and too afraid to make a clean break from
    it. So you get this sort of half-assed situation where nobody is
    entirely happy with D&D anymore, because its owners lack the strength
    to make the hard choice.

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