From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

Source: https://boingboing.net/2024/06/03/dds-latest-module-vecna-eve-of-ruin-and-the-trouble-with-high-level-adventures.html


D&D's latest module, "Vecna: Eve of Ruin," and the trouble with
high-level adventures
Gareth Branwyn 3:00 am Mon Jun 3, 2024


[references Youtube link: https://youtu.be/pJA2BBkb-2k]

I have a confession to make. In all of my decades of playing RPGs, I've
never taken a D&D character to higher than Level 6. And I haven't felt
lacking for this. I've never had the opportunity to play enough, over
enough time, to level up a character beyond that. And I've usually been playing with others who are either new to the game or casual players.
I've never been in a D&D group that's lasted for more than a few months.

Given this background, I've always felt a certain wistful distance in
looking over books designed for higher level characters, like the new
Vecna: Eve of Ruin ($55) from Wizards of the Coast. This 256-page
hardbound module takes players Level 10-20 on a high-stakes adventure to
stop Vecna's sinister plans to end the multiverse itself.

Vecna has been a fixture in D&D lore since his introduction in the 1976 supplement Eldritch Wizardry. Over the years, he's evolved from a
mythical figure into a fully fleshed-out antagonist, featuring
prominently in various editions of D&D, and even making appearances in
pop culture through shows like Stranger Things and Critical Role. Vecna:
Eve of Ruin aims to cement his status as a super villain, akin to major adversaries in other fantasy IPs.

I've always chalked up my ambivalence towards high-level adventure books
as them being out of my reach rCo nice, but just not for me. But in this Dungeon Craft video, Professor Dungeon Master does a great job of
identifying the troubles with high-level games and some of the ways they
can miss the point of what good roleplaying is all about.

High-level D&D is often seen as the pinnacle of the game, where
characters wield god-like powers and face truly monstrous threats.
However, Professor DM highlights several issues that can arise at this
level of the game:

Balance and complexity: High-level characters have powerful abilities
that can disrupt game balance. Modules often need to impose
restrictions, which can frustrate players who feel their characters are
being unfairly nerfed.

Railroading: High-level adventures often involve predefined quests that
limit player agency. Scenarios where powerful NPCs dictate the plot can
make players feel like they're being led by the nose rather than driving
the story forward themselves.

Pacing issues: Combat can become slow and cumbersome due to the need for
more detailed calculations. Simplifying mechanics and using average
damage values can help maintain a brisk pace.

Villain interaction: A common criticism is the lack of direct
interaction with high-level villains until the final encounter. More
frequent engagements with the villain throughout the campaign can
heighten emotional investment and narrative impact.

One of the points made by Professor DM that resonated with me is the misconception that higher levels equate to more epic adventures. He
argues that truly exciting and challenging narratives can emerge at any
level of play, driven by personal stakes and character-driven plots. He recounts a memorable campaign he ran that illustrates this perfectly: a low-level adventure where the players' emotional investment was sparked
by the death of a beloved NPC, leading the players off on a deeply
satisfying and cathartic quest to vanquish their friend's killer.

In the end, whether you're undertaking a high-level campaign or enjoying
the thrills of more humble adventures, the essence of RPGs remains the
same: creating compelling stories and forging unforgettable memories
with your friends. Vecna: Eve of Ruin may offer the promise of
reality-saving, high-level escapades, but as Professor Dungeon Master
aptly points out, the true magic of roleplaying lies not in the level of
your character, but in the depth of your shared experiences.
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From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 12:29:55 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Source: >https://boingboing.net/2024/06/03/dds-latest-module-vecna-eve-of-ruin-and-the-trouble-with-high-level-adventures.html

D&D's latest module, "Vecna: Eve of Ruin," and the trouble with
high-level adventures
Gareth Branwyn 3:00 am Mon Jun 3, 2024

D&D isn't very good at high-level adventures. Mostly because it is
extremely combat focused, and combat at higher-level really isn't much different than low-level. It's just grindier because all the monsters
have higher hit-dice. Despite the hype, you really can't do much more
than low-level characters. You're dangerous, but not godlike. Sure,
you can cast 'earthquake', but it's still a very localized effect. You
might damage a building but so could a fireball. Despite what D&D
novels suggest, you aren't tearing up continents or razing populations
at 20th level.

And, sure, at 20th level you might have followers and influence, but a
lot of that is dependent on campaign and DM. Your character isn't
immediately promoted to god-emperor just because they've achieved 20th
level. Plus, what are you supposed to DO with all that influence? A
lot of time it just turns D&D into a strategy game (unsurprising,
given D&D's wargaming roots).

A lot of the charm and enjoyment in D&D, too, comes from the STRUGGLE.
This is especially pertinent at the lower levels, where your
characters have minimal hitpoints, skills, equipment and spells. Once
you start taking that away, the game loses a lot of its challenge..
and charm. You're either wiping out dozens of low-level monsters
(yawn) or fighting critter that have been upscaled to match your level
by ramping up their abilities to ungodly levels (equally yawn).

(It's also why I feel old-school D&D is more fun than modern editions;
the new stuff just gives you too many toys to play with, so you never
really get that feeling of vulnerability)

That's not to say you can't have fun high-level D&D games, but it
often feels like a struggle; you're fighting against a system that
just isn't designed to scale up that high. Other systems are better
suited to those sorts of power levels (Exalted, for instance) but D&D?
It's meant for low-level play.

IMHO and YMMV, obvs.




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Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 12:29:55 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Source: >>https://boingboing.net/2024/06/03/dds-latest-module-vecna-eve-of-ruin-and-the-trouble-with-high-level-adventures.html


D&D's latest module, "Vecna: Eve of Ruin," and the trouble with
high-level adventures
Gareth Branwyn 3:00 am Mon Jun 3, 2024

That's not to say you can't have fun high-level D&D games, but it
often feels like a struggle; you're fighting against a system that
just isn't designed to scale up that high. Other systems are better
suited to those sorts of power levels (Exalted, for instance) but D&D?
It's meant for low-level play.

let's put it like this: D&D in *dungeon crawling* mode doesn't scale
up that well. *Hex crawl* mode does scale better I feel, and the
*domain game* is literally made for high level play.

To my mind *domain game* play, is much more free form than the more
basic modes of play. It should generally be ruled by common sense and
be driven by political scheming of experienced players. Little place
for D&D's basic combat rules here.

However, *that's* very hard to put in a module I guess, which could
be the reason why a lot of high level modules so far are really
bloated mid level modules.

As to combat focusedness of D&D: yes it's chassis is a war game.
And war gamey battles can take a lot of time. Why, when the game was
conceived, playing out battles was the whole point of the game.

I'd say long battles are a slog when they're boring battles. Which
often happens when you're just rolling down hit points. Tactically
interesting battles can be a lot of fun *if the group is so inclined*.

I've seen large scale battles at my table that took up a whole sessions
time, with everyone super enganged for those 4 hours.

The problem I think is: when you're wary of lengthy battles, you tend
to want to hold them short, which leads to skimping over the more
involved (and tactically interesting) rules and options, thus
leading to meaningless, boring combat. A self-fulfilling prophecy
maybe?

Let me point out again, I don't mean to say you're playing the game
wrong, when your combats are boring. If you and your group don't
like combat, maybe it's better to just roll percentiles to see who
won and cut the whole thing short. That's fine too. But if you do
like a tactical game on your table, don't skimp it, pull all the
options and make it interesting!

Coming back to the module (at last) ... Vecna trying to destroy
the multiverse?! Damn it, I'm intrigued!

Cheers,

lkh
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From Newsgroup: rec.games.frp.dnd

On Tue, 4 Jun 2024 05:51:14 -0000 (UTC), lkh <lkh@sdf-eu.org> wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 12:29:55 +0200, Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:

Source: >>>https://boingboing.net/2024/06/03/dds-latest-module-vecna-eve-of-ruin-and-the-trouble-with-high-level-adventures.html


D&D's latest module, "Vecna: Eve of Ruin," and the trouble with >>>high-level adventures
Gareth Branwyn 3:00 am Mon Jun 3, 2024

That's not to say you can't have fun high-level D&D games, but it
often feels like a struggle; you're fighting against a system that
just isn't designed to scale up that high. Other systems are better
suited to those sorts of power levels (Exalted, for instance) but D&D?
It's meant for low-level play.

let's put it like this: D&D in *dungeon crawling* mode doesn't scale
up that well. *Hex crawl* mode does scale better I feel, and the
*domain game* is literally made for high level play.

To my mind *domain game* play, is much more free form than the more
basic modes of play. It should generally be ruled by common sense and
be driven by political scheming of experienced players. Little place
for D&D's basic combat rules here.

However, *that's* very hard to put in a module I guess, which could
be the reason why a lot of high level modules so far are really
bloated mid level modules.

More, the entire system isn't well designed to scale up. In fact, it's purposefully designed to make high-level players feel weaker than they
should. The "Earthquake" spell above is one example. "Wish" is
another. You never really get to the point of being a world-shaker in
D&D, because it's a game designed around squad-level combat. You CAN
have high-level adventures... but that's DESPITE the system. The D&D
rules neither encourage nor really assist the DM or players. It's
designed to keep you dungeon-crawling, whether that's against kobolds
at 1st level or a tarrasque at 20th.

Let me point out again, I don't mean to say you're playing the game
wrong, when your combats are boring. If you and your group don't
like combat, maybe it's better to just roll percentiles to see who
won and cut the whole thing short. That's fine too. But if you do
like a tactical game on your table, don't skimp it, pull all the
options and make it interesting!

<chuckle> I never said our battles are boring. Just that the enjoyment
doesn't scale up with level. It's pretty much the same but with
flashier effects and more HP to grind down.

Coming back to the module (at last) ... Vecna trying to destroy
the multiverse?! Damn it, I'm intrigued!

Meh. I'd be more excited about it if this wasn't old hat already. "Oh
look, new edition! Let's have Vecna destroy the multiverse again!" Or
if Vecna was actually an interesting character, for that matter. WoTC
(and TSR before them) has been playing him up for decades, but he's
such a one-note villain that the 'head of Vecna' gag is still the most interesting thing about him.




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