• Phrase Origin Question

    From quadibloc@quadibloc@gmail.com to rec.games.chess.misc on Fri May 16 14:02:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.chess.misc

    The mobster John Gotti became referred to as the "Teflon Don" when a
    series of
    charges brought against him failed to hold up in court.
    Later, though, the police did manage to convict him. And I remember, in
    news
    coverage of this, seeing a police officer say on camera: "His Teflon has
    turned
    to Velcro".
    Now, shortly before I saw this, I had read a book about the history of
    chess.
    No doubt many here can now see where this is heading.
    Specifically, my question basically is:
    Did the officer just make up his remark on the spot, or did he base it
    on a
    well-known existing phrase of the form "His/your A has turned to B",
    and, if the
    latter is the case, did that phrase derive, in a direct line of
    succession, from
    the phrase "Your rosewater has turned to urine", as used by Caliph
    al-Muktafi to
    his former favorite chess player, al-Mawardi, after as-Suli had defeated
    him.
    Of course, you might say that this question is impossible to answer
    without
    being able to read the police spokesperson's mind; but really I'm asking
    if it's
    likely to be the case; that is, was there in current use a phrase of the
    form
    "his/your A has turned to B" which could have been likely to be his inspiration.

    John Savard
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  • From William Hyde@wthyde1953@gmail.com to rec.games.chess.misc on Fri May 16 17:35:29 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.chess.misc

    quadibloc wrote:
    The mobster John Gotti became referred to as the "Teflon Don" when a
    series of
    charges brought against him failed to hold up in court.
    Later, though, the police did manage to convict him. And I remember, in
    news
    coverage of this, seeing a police officer say on camera: "His Teflon has turned
    to Velcro".
    Now, shortly before I saw this, I had read a book about the history of
    chess.
    No doubt many here can now see where this is heading.
    Specifically, my question basically is:
    Did the officer just make up his remark on the spot, or did he base it
    on a
    well-known existing phrase of the form "His/your A has turned to B",
    and, if the
    latter is the case, did that phrase derive, in a direct line of
    succession, from
    the phrase "Your rosewater has turned to urine", as used by Caliph
    al-Muktafi to
    his former favorite chess player, al-Mawardi, after as-Suli had defeated
    him.
    Of course, you might say that this question is impossible to answer
    without
    being able to read the police spokesperson's mind; but really I'm asking
    if it's
    likely to be the case; that is, was there in current use a phrase of the
    form
    "his/your A has turned to B" which could have been likely to be his inspiration.

    John Savard

    I recall a chess annotation which was more or less:

    "Black's queenside fortress has turned into a sieve", written by Andy
    Soltis long before anyone had heard of Gotti.

    Also "Strength has turned into weakness" is not unknown. Particularly in reference to the undermining of a strong centre.

    The most common form of this that I've encountered outside chess is "X
    turned to ashes".

    For example, you are savouring victory in a competition when you
    discover that the win was not legitimate, someone cheated for you,
    and not only is your victory meaningless but you will be unable to
    escape suspicion.

    "The taste of victory turned to ashes in my mouth".

    It's almost a cliche.

    William Hyde
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