• I don't care so long as I get the money

    From peps...@gmail.com@pepstein5@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 03:06:02 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    This is an interesting (to me) pay-now, pay-later position.
    Eyeing XG's two inner board blots, I paid now, and was actually
    proud of myself for spotting this.
    I haven't done a rollout but the analysis (which I trust) indicates
    that I had nothing to be proud of and that paying later would have
    been just as good. Anyway it's clearly at the pay-now pay-later border,
    and such borderline positions make good references.

    Paul

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:2:0:0:11:10

    X:Daniel O:XG Roller+
    Score is X:2 O:0 11 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 2-0/11
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. 4-ply 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.071
    Player: 54.76% (G:1.24% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.24% (G:1.09% B:0.02%)

    2. 4-ply 15/6 eq:-0.077 (-0.006)
    Player: 51.91% (G:4.33% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 48.09% (G:1.30% B:0.03%)

    3. 4-ply 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.087 (-0.017)
    Player: 54.72% (G:0.75% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.28% (G:1.46% B:0.02%)

    4. 4-ply 7/2 5/1 eq:-0.136 (-0.066)
    Player: 52.17% (G:0.91% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.83% (G:1.58% B:0.03%)

    5. 3-ply 7/3 6/1 eq:-0.151 (-0.081)
    Player: 52.45% (G:0.89% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.55% (G:1.75% B:0.02%)


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 09:15:18 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    For reference, here's a money-game rollout.

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:0:0:3:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. Rollout-| 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.044
    Player: 54.59% (G:1.00% B:0.02%)
    Opponent: 45.41% (G:0.87% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.047..-0.041) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.058 (-0.014)
    Player: 54.55% (G:0.68% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.45% (G:1.06% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (-0.061..-0.054) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout-| 15/6 eq:-0.065 (-0.022)
    Player: 52.19% (G:3.91% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 47.81% (G:1.33% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.068..-0.062) - [0.0%]

    -| 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From peps...@gmail.com@pepstein5@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 06:29:01 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 2:15:21rC>PM UTC, Timothy Chow wrote:
    For reference, here's a money-game rollout.

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:0:0:3:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54
    1. Rollout-| 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.044
    Player: 54.59% (G:1.00% B:0.02%)
    Opponent: 45.41% (G:0.87% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.047..-0.041) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.058 (-0.014)
    Player: 54.55% (G:0.68% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.45% (G:1.06% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (-0.061..-0.054) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout-| 15/6 eq:-0.065 (-0.022)
    Player: 52.19% (G:3.91% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 47.81% (G:1.33% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.068..-0.062) - [0.0%]

    -| 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
    An old joke from Morecambe and Wise (an easy google if you
    don't recognise them and care about the reference).
    Name please?
    Paul Epstein
    And your specialist subject?
    The bloody obvious.
    So I'd like to ask the very obvious question:
    Are the differences between your equities and my equities
    primarily due to the greater accuracy of the rollout as opposed to
    analysis or due to the AtS difference?
    Paul
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 09:35:59 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On 12/17/2023 9:29 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    Are the differences between your equities and my equities
    primarily due to the greater accuracy of the rollout as opposed to
    analysis or due to the AtS difference?

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:2:0:0:11:10

    Score is X:2 O:0 11 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 2-0/11
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. Rollout-| 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.060
    Player: 54.57% (G:1.04% B:0.02%)
    Opponent: 45.43% (G:0.89% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.063..-0.057) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.073 (-0.013)
    Player: 54.59% (G:0.71% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.41% (G:1.12% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.077..-0.070) - [0.0%]

    3. Rollout-| 15/6 eq:-0.076 (-0.016)
    Player: 52.18% (G:3.93% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 47.82% (G:1.33% B:0.02%)
    Confidence: -#0.003 (-0.078..-0.073) - [0.0%]

    -| 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Stick Rice@bananaboater315@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 13:35:01 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 6:06:03rC>AM UTC-5, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    This is an interesting (to me) pay-now, pay-later position.
    Eyeing XG's two inner board blots, I paid now, and was actually
    proud of myself for spotting this.
    I haven't done a rollout but the analysis (which I trust) indicates
    that I had nothing to be proud of and that paying later would have
    been just as good. Anyway it's clearly at the pay-now pay-later border,
    and such borderline positions make good references.

    Paul

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:2:0:0:11:10

    X:Daniel O:XG Roller+
    Score is X:2 O:0 11 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 2-0/11
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. 4-ply 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.071
    Player: 54.76% (G:1.24% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.24% (G:1.09% B:0.02%)

    2. 4-ply 15/6 eq:-0.077 (-0.006)
    Player: 51.91% (G:4.33% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 48.09% (G:1.30% B:0.03%)

    3. 4-ply 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.087 (-0.017)
    Player: 54.72% (G:0.75% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.28% (G:1.46% B:0.02%)

    4. 4-ply 7/2 5/1 eq:-0.136 (-0.066)
    Player: 52.17% (G:0.91% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.83% (G:1.58% B:0.03%)

    5. 3-ply 7/3 6/1 eq:-0.151 (-0.081)
    Player: 52.45% (G:0.89% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.55% (G:1.75% B:0.02%)


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2
    While spotting and taking into account the two inner board blots of the opponent is something to be proud of we still have to go one step, even two steps, further. One of my old rules is that when the opponent has two (or more) inner board blots we should look around for plays we might not otherwise make. This adage, like all adages I use in bg, doesn't contain all the details to make proper use of it. First off, it's obviously a lot better for us if the opponent has no real board to speak of opposed to here where he has a four point board as he does here. One of the next most important things to take into account in these situations is to be mindful ... sure, he has a double blotted inner board but how many of his hitting numbers actually cover one or both of those blots? You'll note here if you pay now the opponent has [65 64 63 61 33] that all hit and cover either the by far most important blot, his 5pt, putting you on the bar against the best 5pt board and even if you manage to miraculously enter, you're behind a five prime, or it covers both blots.
    Stick
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From peps...@gmail.com@pepstein5@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 15:32:03 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 9:35:02rC>PM UTC, Stick Rice wrote:
    On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 6:06:03rC>AM UTC-5, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
    This is an interesting (to me) pay-now, pay-later position.
    Eyeing XG's two inner board blots, I paid now, and was actually
    proud of myself for spotting this.
    I haven't done a rollout but the analysis (which I trust) indicates
    that I had nothing to be proud of and that paying later would have
    been just as good. Anyway it's clearly at the pay-now pay-later border, and such borderline positions make good references.

    Paul

    XGID=-B-CCBBA-b-----B-a-cabbca-:1:-1:1:54:2:0:0:11:10

    X:Daniel O:XG Roller+
    Score is X:2 O:0 11 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | X O | | O O O O O O | +---+
    | X | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O | +---+
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | |
    | | | X X |
    | O | | X X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 82 O: 84 X-O: 2-0/11
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 54

    1. 4-ply 7/2 6/2 eq:-0.071
    Player: 54.76% (G:1.24% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.24% (G:1.09% B:0.02%)

    2. 4-ply 15/6 eq:-0.077 (-0.006)
    Player: 51.91% (G:4.33% B:0.15%)
    Opponent: 48.09% (G:1.30% B:0.03%)

    3. 4-ply 6/2 6/1 eq:-0.087 (-0.017)
    Player: 54.72% (G:0.75% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 45.28% (G:1.46% B:0.02%)

    4. 4-ply 7/2 5/1 eq:-0.136 (-0.066)
    Player: 52.17% (G:0.91% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.83% (G:1.58% B:0.03%)

    5. 3-ply 7/3 6/1 eq:-0.151 (-0.081)
    Player: 52.45% (G:0.89% B:0.01%)
    Opponent: 47.55% (G:1.75% B:0.02%)


    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10, MET: Kazaross XG2
    While spotting and taking into account the two inner board blots of the opponent is something to be proud of we still have to go one step, even two steps, further. One of my old rules is that when the opponent has two (or more) inner board blots we should look around for plays we might not otherwise make. This adage, like all adages I use in bg, doesn't contain all the details to make proper use of it. First off, it's obviously a lot better for us if the opponent has no real board to speak of opposed to here where he has a four point board as he does here. One of the next most important things to take into account in these situations is to be mindful ... sure, he has a double blotted inner board but how many of his hitting numbers actually cover one or both of those blots? You'll note here if you pay now the opponent has [65 64 63 61 33] that all hit and cover either the by far most important blot, his 5pt, putting you on the bar against the best 5pt board and even if you manage to miraculously enter, you're behind a five prime, or it covers both blots.

    Stick
    Thanks, very helpful. Great to get free tuition from a world-class player. Paul
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2