• Hit for tempo?

    From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Tue Dec 12 09:46:49 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    XGID=-aADCCC--------a----c-dccA:1:-1:1:63:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 84 O: 70 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 63

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Thu Dec 14 08:54:58 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    XGID=-aADCCC--------a----c-dccA:1:-1:1:63:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 84 O: 70 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 63

    Most people would not hit here, because the downside of getting another
    checker sent back is so large. QF would therefore say that X is supposed
    to hit here. But no, the rollout below says that hitting is nearly a
    double whopper.

    The main point is that the "obvious" alternative of 5/2 puts O's
    straggler behind a solid five-prime, which does a pretty good job of containment. If we apply the usual approximation that hitting almost
    always wins if O dances (and loses if O hits) then we have to judge
    whether the safe play wins more than 2/3 of the time. The answer,
    according to XG, is yes, on account of X's far superior structure
    and the close race. Even if O hits or escapes, X retains some amount
    of counterplay.

    But if you want a QF play, see the variant below.

    1. Rollout-| Bar/19 5/2 eq:+0.428
    Player: 72.74% (G:6.80% B:0.19%)
    Opponent: 27.26% (G:0.56% B:0.00%)
    Confidence: -#0.005 (+0.423..+0.433) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| Bar/19 4/1* eq:+0.251 (-0.177)
    Player: 64.28% (G:13.84% B:0.39%)
    Opponent: 35.72% (G:5.49% B:0.05%)
    Confidence: -#0.005 (+0.246..+0.256) - [0.0%]

    -| 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-AaDCCC--------a----c-dccA:1:-1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 83 O: 69 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 62

    1. Rollout-| Bar/19 4/2* eq:+0.255
    Player: 64.44% (G:13.91% B:0.39%)
    Opponent: 35.56% (G:5.30% B:0.06%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (+0.251..+0.260) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| Bar/19 3/1 eq:+0.208 (-0.047)
    Player: 63.00% (G:7.76% B:0.21%)
    Opponent: 37.00% (G:0.36% B:0.00%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (+0.205..+0.212) - [0.0%]

    -| 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From atila...@gmail.com@atilamalcok@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Thu Dec 14 12:58:49 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    14 Aral-#k 2023 Per+fembe tarihinde saat 16:55:01 UTC+3 itibar-#yla Timothy Chow +funlar-# yazd-#:
    XGID=-aADCCC--------a----c-dccA:1:-1:1:63:0:0:0:0:10

    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 84 O: 70 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 63
    Most people would not hit here, because the downside of getting another checker sent back is so large. QF would therefore say that X is supposed
    to hit here. But no, the rollout below says that hitting is nearly a
    double whopper.

    The main point is that the "obvious" alternative of 5/2 puts O's
    straggler behind a solid five-prime, which does a pretty good job of containment. If we apply the usual approximation that hitting almost
    always wins if O dances (and loses if O hits) then we have to judge
    whether the safe play wins more than 2/3 of the time. The answer,
    according to XG, is yes, on account of X's far superior structure
    and the close race. Even if O hits or escapes, X retains some amount
    of counterplay.

    But if you want a QF play, see the variant below.

    1. Rollout-| Bar/19 5/2 eq:+0.428
    Player: 72.74% (G:6.80% B:0.19%)
    Opponent: 27.26% (G:0.56% B:0.00%)
    Confidence: -#0.005 (+0.423..+0.433) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| Bar/19 4/1* eq:+0.251 (-0.177)
    Player: 64.28% (G:13.84% B:0.39%)
    Opponent: 35.72% (G:5.49% B:0.05%)
    Confidence: -#0.005 (+0.246..+0.256) - [0.0%]

    -| 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    -------
    Variant
    -------

    XGID=-AaDCCC--------a----c-dccA:1:-1:1:62:0:0:0:0:10
    Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | O | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | X | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | | | X X X X O X |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 83 O: 69 X-O: 0-0
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 62

    1. Rollout-| Bar/19 4/2* eq:+0.255
    Player: 64.44% (G:13.91% B:0.39%)
    Opponent: 35.56% (G:5.30% B:0.06%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (+0.251..+0.260) - [100.0%]

    2. Rollout-| Bar/19 3/1 eq:+0.208 (-0.047)
    Player: 63.00% (G:7.76% B:0.21%)
    Opponent: 37.00% (G:0.36% B:0.00%)
    Confidence: -#0.004 (+0.205..+0.212) - [0.0%]

    -| 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
    Dice Seed: 271828
    Moves: 4-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller+
    Search interval: Large

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release

    ---
    Tim Chow
    I agree with you and I would like to add that it is similar to the trap play concept described by Steve Sax on the gammonvillage website. The only difference is that the trap is set inside, not on the 7-8 points. That's why I first looked at O's inner board points. If he had three points instead of four, hitting would be a serious option.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Fri Dec 15 09:30:16 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On 12/14/2023 3:58 PM, atila...@gmail.com wrote:
    I agree with you and I would like to add that it is similar to the trap play concept described by Steve Sax on the gammonvillage website. The only difference is that the trap is set inside, not on the 7-8 points. That's why I first looked at O's inner board points. If he had three points instead of four, hitting would be a serious option.

    A "trap play" usually refers to forcing the opponent off an
    anchor, right? Or are you/Steve Sax using the term "trap play" in a
    different sense?

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From atila...@gmail.com@atilamalcok@gmail.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 04:45:49 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    15 Aral-#k 2023 Cuma tarihinde saat 17:30:19 UTC+3 itibar-#yla Timothy Chow +funlar-# yazd-#:
    On 12/14/2023 3:58 PM, atila...@gmail.com wrote:
    I agree with you and I would like to add that it is similar to the trap play concept described by Steve Sax on the gammonvillage website. The only difference is that the trap is set inside, not on the 7-8 points. That's why I first looked at O's inner board points. If he had three points instead of four, hitting would be a serious option.
    A "trap play" usually refers to forcing the opponent off an
    anchor, right? Or are you/Steve Sax using the term "trap play" in a different sense?

    ---
    Tim Chow
    You're right, in trap plays we force the opponent to break his anchor. In the second stage, we try to put the blots on the bar. This position is similar to the second stage. Actually, the concept of trap play is still going on.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Timothy Chow@tchow12000@yahoo.com to rec.games.backgammon on Sun Dec 17 09:25:24 2023
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.backgammon

    On 12/17/2023 7:45 AM, atila...@gmail.com wrote:

    You're right, in trap plays we force the opponent to break his anchor. In the second stage, we try to put the blots on the bar. This position is similar to the second stage. Actually, the concept of trap play is still going on.

    I see what you're saying. In the actual game, here's what happened.
    In the position below, O was forced to run with 63.


    XGID=--bDCCCB------------c-dcc-:1:-1:-1:63:0:3:0:7:10

    Score is X:0 O:3 7 pt.(s) match.
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | X | | X X X X O |
    | X | | X X X X O |
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    Pip count X: 71 O: 82 X-O: 0-3/7
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    O to play 63


    I was then all set to point on O's head, but rolled my
    unluckiest roll of 65. I decided to attack anyway, although
    XG says it would have played 7/1 6/1. O entered from the
    bar with 41, leading to the position that I posted.


    XGID=--aDCCCB---a--------c-dcc-:1:-1:1:65:0:3:0:7:10

    Score is X:0 O:3 7 pt.(s) match.
    +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O O O O | | 2 |
    | | | O O O O | +---+
    | | | O |
    | | | |
    | |BAR| |
    | | | |
    | | | X |
    | | | X X X X |
    | X | | X X X X |
    | O X | | X X X X O |
    +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
    Pip count X: 71 O: 73 X-O: 0-3/7
    Cube: 2, O own cube
    X to play 65

    1. XG Roller+ 7/1 6/1 eq:+0.405
    Player: 72.54% (G:1.80% B:0.02%)
    Opponent: 27.46% (G:0.11% B:0.00%)

    2. XG Roller+ 7/1 7/2* eq:+0.400 (-0.005)
    Player: 69.36% (G:8.07% B:0.14%)
    Opponent: 30.64% (G:1.17% B:0.01%)

    eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

    ---
    Tim Chow
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2