• off-grid - battery & winter 12V-generator?

    From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 13:11:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a
    shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* -
    therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it
    would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Regards,
    Rich Smith
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  • From Carl@carl.ijamesXX@YYverizon.net to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 10:25:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 7/30/26 8:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* - therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Regards,
    Rich Smith

    Over the last 6-7 years the number of brands of self-contained (battery,
    mains charger, solar controller, mains output inverter) "solar
    generators" or "solar power stations" has exploded. The battery
    chemistry is now exclusively LiFePO4 for both safety over Li ion and
    charge cycle life. The usual arrangement is to have separate power
    switches for DC output (12 V and USB charging ports) and mains AC output
    so you can optimize the standby draw, and battery life is usually at
    least 80% capacity remaining after 3000 full cycles (so one cycle per
    day is over 8 years). Portable sizes range from 100 watt-hours to about
    3000 whr depending on what you call portable (3000 whr units are
    ballpark 70-90 lbs), with units past 5000 whr for home backup. Many
    models allow external expansion batteries for even more storage capacity
    if you don't need more inverter wattage output. Go to YouTube and
    search for "jasonoid", and pick one of his review videos at random (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5xK62HbILY) to get an overview of
    features and performance. In the comments he always puts a link to a cumulative spreadsheet with all the specs and review results so you can
    get a quick overview of popular brands. There are several yt channels
    that cover solar generators, I just think he does a thorough,
    knowledgeable, articulate job of it.

    The most fuel-efficient way to use a gas generator with a solar
    generator is to only run the generator to charge the solar generator,
    and to match the gas generator rating to the maximum charging power of
    the solar generator so you are charging near the maximum rate the solar generator allows and the gas generator is close to it's rating (say
    withing 20% of the max for each). That way the generator is near full throttle for best fuel efficiency and the noisy run time is minimized.
    The solar generator DC charging input for 12 volt charging is limited by
    the current rating of 10 amps on the usual cigarette lighter socket on a
    car and 12V * 10 A is only 120 W so charging even a smallish 500 whr
    solar generator will take nearly 5 hours. Most larger solar generators
    need at least 30 volts DC input for charging to get faster charging and
    to keep the wire size from getting out of control so the simplest way is
    to use a standard mains output gas generator and charge using the mains
    input on the solar generator. Again, to keep wire size reasonable the
    usual plan is to wire solar panels in series so the current stays small
    and the voltage goes up so for medium and large solar generators the DC
    input (you can feed this port from either a battery bank or DC generator
    or solar panels) range is usually about 30 V minimum and 60-200 V
    maximum. Many large generators will accept 12 VDC for charging either
    on the main port or on a separate lower power input but that's mostly
    for historical reasons and probably never used on any solar generator
    larger than 500 whr because waiting 2+ days to charge is just not
    practical :-).

    My quick take as someone who started with a 500 whr unit and a small
    solar panel six years ago to make sure I could keep my CPAP running in
    case of a power failure and now has a 2400 watt solar array and 3000 whr
    solar generator that I use to charge my PHEV car and home essentials
    backup if needed.
    --
    Regards,
    Carl
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  • From bp@bp@www.zefox.net to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.energy.homepower on Thu Jul 30 15:45:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Richard Smith <null@void.com> wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* - therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Minimizing generator size is critical to efficiency, but 12V
    car alternators are optimized for cost and size, not efficiency.

    I've got a UPS-style inverter/charger setup based on Amazon
    components for my fridge and communications equipment. My
    generator is grossly oversized, luck of the second-hand draw.
    Something like a Honda EU-series or equivalent would be much
    more appropriate if planning ahead.

    This is a fairly deep rabbithole, I'd suggest starting the burrow
    at alt.energy.homepower to keep it on-topic.

    Thanks for reading,

    bob prohaska

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 13:56:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking



    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m18q6s8yow.fsf@void.com...

    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a
    shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* -
    therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it
    would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Regards,
    Rich Smith

    -----------------------------------
    Realistically the recommended charging current for a 100A Lead or LiFePO4 battery is 20A which means 5+ hours to fully recharge. The power from the generator is around 300W per battery. You can charge at higher current at
    some indeterminate risk to battery lifespan.

    Inverter generators don't need to run at full speed to produce full voltage like a standard genny, they throttle down and consume less fuel at lower loads. Inverter circuits are the DC equivalent to AC transformers, they can convert one combination of voltage and current to another of slightly less power.

    I'm about to test such a setup. My DC-AC power station consists of two 100Ah LiFePO4s powering a Vevor 2500W inverter, chosen for low standby loss if running the fridge overnight. A 30A solar controller, overload and
    accidental short protection and voltage, current and charge level monitoring added to its cost and complexity. I design and build more electrical than mechanical equipment.

    The AC powered charger is a homebrew made from a 50A stick welding transformer, rectifier and capacitor, with an input Variac to adjust the power. The transformer isn't ideal for the task but I had it, hadn't found
    an alternative transformer and could tweak the circuit to work well enough, and since it's self-limiting to tolerate a stuck electrode it's suited to performing tests such as circuit breaker trip current, up to 70A so far. It can deliver 30A at 28V for 24V batteries and 40A at 14V for 12V, matching
    the 2x 20A suggested charging current for the batteries.

    The test will be what overheats and needs upgrading, likely it's the reverse input protection diodes for which I bought a higher current upgrade. A
    forward diode in series keeps battery current from surging into the
    capacitor if connected when power is off, another in reverse to minus shunts the current from a battery connected backwards until the fuse blows. Commercial DC sources may lack this protection. The Variac brush current is
    a hard limit, replacements are scarce, expensive and tricky to make. I have
    a thermal imager to find hot spots and a thermocouple meter to more
    accurately measure them.

    Grid power here costs $0.22 per KWH, I figure genny power at $0.60 to $1 depending on gasoline cost and electrical efficiency, which is poor for the welding transformer at higher loads. Nevertheless it can charge effectively
    on the 900W max of my Honda EU1000i, and at full power on my 2200W HF Predator, the first model. A Kill-A-Watt meter lets me keep the load within the Honda's limited capacity. The Vevor 2500W invertor runs my microwave and starts and runs a window air conditioner without a hiccup. Its no-load loss
    is around 10-15W, much better then the 50W of my APC1400 UPS which wastes
    half the battery charge while the fridge has cycled off.

    For small AC loads an inexpensive Bestek 300 works well, usually it's all I need for the computers and TV. It's on batteries retired on schedule from hospital mobile laptop stations. My larger batteries were bought new to qualify for the now discontinued 30% tax credit.

    The genny must be outdoors away from doors and windows for CO safety, which rules out collecting its heat, but I have free firewood for that. For theft safety it may need a 3 side + lid sound enclosure which I made from
    fireproof suspended ceiling tiles rimmed with shop made sheet metal U channels. The noise is from the engine, a larger muffler didn't help.

    I reworked my clothes dryer vent to be the inlet for the extension cord to
    the driveway where the Honda genny needs only a small space cleared of snow and likely ice. Behind the house the cord can go through a hatch I made to load in firewood. The larger genny is fueled and in a shed there, but I have to shovel half way around the house to reach it and the snowblowers.

    The little Honda is stored indoors without fuel, which is in an EPA sealed container stored in a closed bin. I made a rubber stopper and bulb pressurizer for the fuel tank inlet that lets me prime it for use and then completely empty it through the carb bowl drain before bringing it indoors with the wood stove.

    Except for the weatherproof wall entry near equivalents to most of this
    setup could be purchased and plugged together. I didn't look hard at battery chargers because their experimental use is too restricted. I need the adjustable voltage output and current limiting plus meters of lab supplies.

    This or its droogs can operate directly from a 12V or 24V battery. https://carfridge.alpicool.com/products/alpicool-t60?
    A magnet in the divider switches it between single and dual compartment
    modes.

    Managing home power generation can become a nuisance chore that frequently interrupts you, even if the tasks are brief like feeding the stove. ... Speaking of which, I just read the electric meter several hours late and put the solar panels back in the truck bed, the only place they can be concealed in front of the house. In this overcast they produce about 5% of rating.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 14:37:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Carl" wrote in message news:V9JaS.912$Qst2.799@fx03.iad...

    On 7/30/26 8:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    ---------------------
    My quick take as someone who started with a 500 whr unit and a small
    solar panel six years ago to make sure I could keep my CPAP running in
    case of a power failure and now has a 2400 watt solar array and 3000 whr
    solar generator that I use to charge my PHEV car and home essentials
    backup if needed.
    --
    Regards,
    Carl

    ----------------------

    That is a good if not economical answer if you don't do your own electrical engineering and construction. I bought a small Jackery on closeout for safe portable use since I can't make plastic housings and wood burns. Its
    internal charger is an inverter that accepts a range of input voltages from car 12V to a 22V folding solar panel.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.energy.homepower on Thu Jul 30 15:22:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking



    "Carl" wrote in message news:V9JaS.912$Qst2.799@fx03.iad...

    Most larger solar generators
    need at least 30 volts DC input for charging to get faster charging and
    to keep the wire size from getting out of control so the simplest way is
    to use a standard mains output gas generator and charge using the mains
    input on the solar generator.

    -------------------------------

    Agreed. I've wired industrially for up to 1000 Amps with 4/0 cable, and No.
    2 welding cable on home projects. Common tools and supplies are good to 30A, above that the connectors and crimpers become expensive and harder to find.

    Anderson Powerpole connectors are common for DC because the connections
    don't have gender like pin & socket where power flows only one way,
    batteries both give and receive current, both sides of connectors may be live/hot. All connectors of the same current rating and color coding will
    mate together and are shrouded when unplugged. The color coding is for separation by voltage but it can be milled out of the housing if not needed.

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  • From Carl@carl.ijamesXX@YYverizon.net to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 16:17:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 7/30/26 2:37 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Carl"-a wrote in message news:V9JaS.912$Qst2.799@fx03.iad...

    On 7/30/26 8:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    ---------------------
    My quick take as someone who started with a 500 whr unit and a small
    solar panel six years ago to make sure I could keep my CPAP running in
    case of a power failure and now has a 2400 watt solar array and 3000 whr solar generator that I use to charge my PHEV car and home essentials
    backup if needed.


    Any system like this will span the range of design and build it yourself
    to buying a complete unit off the shelf. To start Richard's education I figured it best to let him see what an off the shelf unit looks like so
    he can appreciate all of the component subsystems and start getting a
    feel for the specs so he can decide what he needs. Also, since whatever someone constructs for themselves will inevitably be compared to what is available as a finished product it's useful to keep up with the
    commercial products. My unit has a 3071 whr 48V LiFePO4 battery, a 3600
    watt max 4200 watt peak 120VAC inverter that can start a 12 amp vacuum
    cleaner and 15 amp table saw at the same time, and an MPPT 25-120 VDC
    input solar charger and 120VAC input charger both capable of up to 1600
    watts charging but which can be turned down in 20% steps in the control
    menu so you can make the choice of time vs. battery life. It has six
    120V 20A outlets and the standard 30A twist lock RV receptacle (and it
    can supply a full 30A unlike some units which have smaller inverters and
    can only supply 25ish A). That's all stuffed into a compact 19.3"L x
    11.6"W x 11.1"H, 63 lb box. All for $800 last Black Friday; now $899 on Amazon and direct from the mfg. I could possibly have saved a few $
    building something myself but I would never have achieved such good
    packaging and usability. I can do functional mechanical and electronic
    design but I just can't do pretty layout and packaging, sigh - I applaud anyone who can. There are other brands with similar specs in the same mid-tier price range, I just liked the features this one offered.
    --
    Regards,
    Carl
    lurking and learning since 1990
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  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 21:33:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    I am reading and thanks, yes this is a journey into the topic.
    BTW with "car alternator" I was thinking get one from a scrapped car and
    spin the alternator with the small gasoline engine. Even the smallest
    "GX" engine at 100cc is looking a little overpowered for this. On the
    plus - I hear many car alternators have a built-in regulator ?
    Rich S
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  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 21:49:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m18q6s8yow.fsf@void.com...

    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* - therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Regards,
    Rich Smith

    -----------------------------------
    Realistically the recommended charging current for a 100A Lead or
    LiFePO4 battery is 20A which means 5+ hours to fully recharge. The
    power from the generator is around 300W per battery. You can charge at
    higher current at some indeterminate risk to battery lifespan.

    Inverter generators don't need to run at full speed to produce full
    voltage like a standard genny, they throttle down and consume less
    fuel at lower loads. Inverter circuits are the DC equivalent to AC transformers, they can convert one combination of voltage and current
    to another of slightly less power.

    I'm about to test such a setup. My DC-AC power station consists of two
    100Ah LiFePO4s powering a Vevor 2500W inverter, chosen for low standby
    loss if running the fridge overnight. A 30A solar controller, overload
    and accidental short protection and voltage, current and charge level monitoring added to its cost and complexity. I design and build more electrical than mechanical equipment.

    The AC powered charger is a homebrew made from a 50A stick welding transformer, rectifier and capacitor, with an input Variac to adjust
    the power. The transformer isn't ideal for the task but I had it,
    hadn't found an alternative transformer and could tweak the circuit to
    work well enough, and since it's self-limiting to tolerate a stuck
    electrode it's suited to performing tests such as circuit breaker trip current, up to 70A so far. It can deliver 30A at 28V for 24V batteries
    and 40A at 14V for 12V, matching the 2x 20A suggested charging current
    for the batteries.

    The test will be what overheats and needs upgrading, likely it's the
    reverse input protection diodes for which I bought a higher current
    upgrade. A forward diode in series keeps battery current from surging
    into the capacitor if connected when power is off, another in reverse
    to minus shunts the current from a battery connected backwards until
    the fuse blows. Commercial DC sources may lack this protection. The
    Variac brush current is a hard limit, replacements are scarce,
    expensive and tricky to make. I have a thermal imager to find hot
    spots and a thermocouple meter to more accurately measure them.

    Grid power here costs $0.22 per KWH, I figure genny power at $0.60 to
    $1 depending on gasoline cost and electrical efficiency, which is poor
    for the welding transformer at higher loads. Nevertheless it can
    charge effectively on the 900W max of my Honda EU1000i, and at full
    power on my 2200W HF Predator, the first model. A Kill-A-Watt meter
    lets me keep the load within the Honda's limited capacity. The Vevor
    2500W invertor runs my microwave and starts and runs a window air
    conditioner without a hiccup. Its no-load loss is around 10-15W, much
    better then the 50W of my APC1400 UPS which wastes half the battery
    charge while the fridge has cycled off.

    For small AC loads an inexpensive Bestek 300 works well, usually it's
    all I need for the computers and TV. It's on batteries retired on
    schedule from hospital mobile laptop stations. My larger batteries
    were bought new to qualify for the now discontinued 30% tax credit.

    The genny must be outdoors away from doors and windows for CO safety,
    which rules out collecting its heat, but I have free firewood for
    that. For theft safety it may need a 3 side + lid sound enclosure
    which I made from fireproof suspended ceiling tiles rimmed with shop
    made sheet metal U channels. The noise is from the engine, a larger
    muffler didn't help.

    I reworked my clothes dryer vent to be the inlet for the extension
    cord to the driveway where the Honda genny needs only a small space
    cleared of snow and likely ice. Behind the house the cord can go
    through a hatch I made to load in firewood. The larger genny is fueled
    and in a shed there, but I have to shovel half way around the house to
    reach it and the snowblowers.

    The little Honda is stored indoors without fuel, which is in an EPA
    sealed container stored in a closed bin. I made a rubber stopper and
    bulb pressurizer for the fuel tank inlet that lets me prime it for use
    and then completely empty it through the carb bowl drain before
    bringing it indoors with the wood stove.

    Except for the weatherproof wall entry near equivalents to most of
    this setup could be purchased and plugged together. I didn't look hard
    at battery chargers because their experimental use is too
    restricted. I need the adjustable voltage output and current limiting
    plus meters of lab supplies.

    This or its droogs can operate directly from a 12V or 24V battery. https://carfridge.alpicool.com/products/alpicool-t60?
    A magnet in the divider switches it between single and dual
    compartment modes.

    Managing home power generation can become a nuisance chore that
    frequently interrupts you, even if the tasks are brief like feeding
    the stove. ... Speaking of which, I just read the electric meter
    several hours late and put the solar panels back in the truck bed, the
    only place they can be concealed in front of the house. In this
    overcast they produce about 5% of rating.

    More thanks.

    The refrigerator is going to be inherently 12V DC. Apparently
    something like 30A-hr to 50A-hr per day.
    Hence the small size of the system.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.energy.homepower on Thu Jul 30 19:12:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m14ihg8bg2.fsf@void.com...

    I am reading and thanks, yes this is a journey into the topic.
    BTW with "car alternator" I was thinking get one from a scrapped car and
    spin the alternator with the small gasoline engine. Even the smallest
    "GX" engine at 100cc is looking a little overpowered for this. On the
    plus - I hear many car alternators have a built-in regulator ?
    Rich S

    ---------------------------------
    I've considered this too and have an alternator, besides incompatible belt types the stumbling block is that car voltage regulators aren't adjustable
    and I like to follow maker's numbers for the lead acid bulk, absorption and float stages, plus DC desulfation if needed. For LiFePO4 I use the AGM or similar float voltage and occasionally raise it to take the battery to its cutoff and balancing voltage. Also I update my current-measuring charge
    level monitor to 100%. https://www.batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-403-charging-lead-acid/

    However if the grid and your battery bank are down those are minor considerations, you take what you can get. A larger concern may be that the charging battery needs to be close to the outdoor generator, not your indoor inverter and load. Power travels with much less loss or wire expense at 120V than 12V. I have the welding transformer charger which gives nearly the same result with better control and monitoring at the inverter battery, powered
    by 120VAC from a generator.

    Drok offers a voltage adjustable and current limited supply that's nearly
    what I want but the voltage apparently doesn't go quite high enough, I'd
    like 16V to allow an anti-backflow diode. https://www.ebay.com/itm/800378599533?

    While we are at it...
    It's claimed that LiFePO4 deteriorates internally when near or at full voltage, the storage recommendation is ~60% SOC. However the same people say to charge to 14.4V which trips cutoff.

    <a battery maker> told me that 13.6V is a good charger voltage, just below cutoff. The battery still charges rapidly to around 90%, then the current tapers down, but you wouldn't know this unless you display the current as
    well as the voltage.

    Charging LiFePO4 to 13.6V like AGM and even paralleling them is
    controversial, it has advantages and cautions. For me the advantage is that when the LiFePO4 reaches full charge and suddenly disconnects the AGM
    absorbs and prevents a voltage spike to full panel open circuit voltage
    before the solar controller can react. This protects the connected inverter from overvoltage which broke one of mine.

    The caution is that an AGM at higher than ~12.8V rest voltage draws leakage current from the LiFePO4. The two C&D 77Ah AGMs I have in parallel draw less than 1/2 Amp but some can take more as they age. I shut off their breaker in the evening if I think of it but the loss isn't that significant. During overcast it stays off because the LiFePO4s won't fully charge.

    The LiFePO4 provides all the current down to around 12.6V where it's nearly depleted, then the AGM smoothly takes over. The full discharge endpoints of both are similar and setting load cutoff a little higher like 11 - 11.5V
    gives up little capacity without completely draining either.

    I hope that's enough but not too much.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Jul 30 22:47:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:114g36h$20q8c$1@dont-email.me...

    I'm about to test such a setup. ...

    My power supply works and didn't overheat with the output protection diodes bypassed, new ones rated for 162A tested but not installed yet. The welding transformer's efficiency is dismal, 33% at 44A out. The lost power mostly heats the secondary winding. This is how a "constant current" stick welder transformer operates, by wasting power, and why they have a low ON duty
    cycle and need 8 minutes out of ten to cool off.

    The limit was the input Kill-A-Watt beeping at its 15A limit which is also
    the Variac brush rating. So I can check off preparing for hurricane season.

    A Meanwell 15V 40A power supply or equivalent would work if its output was adjustable enough, or this if a company was paying. https://peaktech-rce.com/en/laboratory-power-supplies/384-peaktech-1565-laboratory-switching-power-supply-dc-1-16v-0-40a-programmable-usb.html


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 08:23:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1y0es6w4x.fsf@void.com...

    More thanks.

    The refrigerator is going to be inherently 12V DC. Apparently
    something like 30A-hr to 50A-hr per day.
    Hence the small size of the system.

    --------------------

    Solar power systems tend to grow until they hit a limit, in my case good places for panels.

    We've discussed some of the tradeoffs between build and buy. LiFePO4 seems
    to be the agreed choice for batteries, partly from hope that they will
    deliver on their promised long life; AGMs sometimes didn't. Their
    disadvantage is the full charge cutoff where they disconnect and may allow full panel voltage to enter the inverter. Unlike lead they have no place to put excess charge current, lead batteries electrolyze and vent the water
    with it. Charging to 13.6V solves that but slows final charging rate and may allow the cells to drift off balance. You become a part time power plant engineer tending the batteries.

    MPPT solar controllers are usually preferred for somewhat higher efficiency, especially in cooler climates. When the panels get hot their advantage over PWM decreases because the panel voltage drops. The most I saw was 10% higher current. MPPT wants sole control of the panel array while multiple PWM controllers can share it, an advantage if your loads need to be in separate areas of the house. They can allow a discharged battery to draw current from
    a charged one on another controller which current meters and individual DC-rated circuit breakers can detect and stop, if you catch it.

    MPPT permits the higher voltage and lower current of panels in series, which reduces wire cost. I don't know how well it handles the cutoff
    disconnection, that may vary between units and takes lab equipment to
    detect. Even with PWM I've seen 100V kickback spikes when the controller
    shuts off the current. For that reason I have analog voltage and current meters on the panel downleads. The digital meters on the battery side are
    not subjected to the same static spikes or slowly rising voltage that may interfere with their power-on reset or calibration.

    With inverters the loss from idle current can be an issue. Some get around
    it by detecting no load conditions and shutting down until they sense
    demand. This is good when the only load is a refrigerator overnight. The
    Vevor I bought doesn't sense loading but it idles at only around 10W. For
    DIY current sensing relays aren't expensive.

    Some inverters may include a UPS function without the limitations of
    computer units value-engineered (cheapened) to run only long enough to shut down. I have an APC1400 server UPS that can operate indefinitely on a large external battery at somewhat reduced load. It's good for nights when a predicted storm may cause power loss but you don't want to expend the
    limited battery capacity needlessly in extended cloudy weather that prevents solar recharging. The APC's weakness is high inverter idle power which approaches what the compact refrigerator takes. It accepts external serial port commands but not to turn on the inverter when on battery, that takes a special button pushing sequence which they emphasize is Not Normal.

    In the US the electrical code requirements for solar are rather demanding
    and expensive, partly to protect firemen spraying water on the roof.

    I made solar panels free standing by adding a folding V leg of 1/2"
    electrical conduit to the back, 2 legs from each 10' length. I can rotate or move the panels to follow the sun.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 11:27:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 7/30/2026 5:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.

    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.

    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be an efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* - therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it would be welcomed.

    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?

    Regards,
    Rich Smith

    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might think.
    I ran that gamut some years back setting up burglar alarm systems
    models here there was no power, and in un-powered warehouses. I found
    that if I didn't plan for 4 times the estimated max demand I was getting constant low battery communication from the cellular communicators.
    This is in SW Arizona where arguably it is among the best locations in
    the world for solar power.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 16:00:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:114ipdu$2vnba$1@dont-email.me...

    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might think.
    I ran that gamut some years back setting up burglar alarm systems
    models here there was no power, and in un-powered warehouses. I found
    that if I didn't plan for 4 times the estimated max demand I was getting constant low battery communication from the cellular communicators.
    This is in SW Arizona where arguably it is among the best locations in
    the world for solar power.
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

    ---------------------------------

    Yes, I might get 50% of rated output at the meter panel due to shade and suboptimal fixed angles and the resistance of 10 AWG (5.26mm^2) wire. They only test around 100% of label wattage at the panel connectors on a very
    clear and cool day with a variable resistive load adjusted to find the peak, which varies in voltage between identical panels. Barely noticeable haze or cirrus can drop them to 50%, overcast to 10% and rain below 5%. Fixed mount panels lose power off-angle, you may get only 2 hours near max power and 5 total per day, unless you can move them. I am not in a good location for
    solar power unless I move panels several times a day.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 16:30:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 7/31/2026 1:00 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:114ipdu$2vnba$1@dont-email.me...

    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might think.
    -aI ran that gamut some years back setting up burglar alarm systems
    models here there was no power, and in un-powered warehouses.-a I found
    that if I didn't plan for 4 times the estimated max demand I was getting constant low battery communication from the cellular communicators.
    This is in SW Arizona where arguably it is among the best locations in
    the world for solar power.
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

    ---------------------------------

    Yes, I might get 50% of rated output at the meter panel due to shade and suboptimal fixed angles and the resistance of 10 AWG (5.26mm^2) wire.
    They only test around 100% of label wattage at the panel connectors on a very clear and cool day with a variable resistive load adjusted to find
    the peak, which varies in voltage between identical panels. Barely noticeable haze or cirrus can drop them to 50%, overcast to 10% and rain below 5%. Fixed mount panels lose power off-angle, you may get only 2
    hours near max power and 5 total per day, unless you can move them. I am
    not in a good location for solar power unless I move panels several
    times a day.



    I have never done this, nor have I ever seen it first hand, but I heard described a very simple tracking system once. Panels are mounted on a
    swivel axis. A box with a slit is placed on either side of the panel.
    A small photovoltaic cell is used to trigger a circuit which moves the
    panel with an actuator depending on condition. Sound complicated and
    fiddly, but the idea seems pretty simple. Elevation is adjust every so
    often through out the year. I don't recall hearing how it was rest to
    the sunrise horizon at the end of travel. Maybe a timer. No signal
    from either trigger for so many minutes and it trips a circuit that
    powers the panels back to a limit switch using something like a
    6060/6062 board.

    Given today's abundance of advanced flexible processors it might be
    easier to program a small computer system with a 365 day timer, to just
    move the panel/s by dead reckoning every few minutes, and then swing
    back to the sunrise horizon at sunset. Not at sunrise obviously because
    if all backup power is consumed overnight there would be no energy to
    restart the system when the sun rises.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Clare Snyder@clare@snyder.on.ca to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 22:23:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On Fri, 31 Jul 2026 16:30:42 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 7/31/2026 1:00 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob La Londe"a wrote in message news:114ipdu$2vnba$1@dont-email.me...

    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might think.
    aI ran that gamut some years back setting up burglar alarm systems
    models here there was no power, and in un-powered warehouses.a I found
    that if I didn't plan for 4 times the estimated max demand I was getting
    constant low battery communication from the cellular communicators.
    This is in SW Arizona where arguably it is among the best locations in
    the world for solar power.
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

    ---------------------------------

    Yes, I might get 50% of rated output at the meter panel due to shade and
    suboptimal fixed angles and the resistance of 10 AWG (5.26mm^2) wire.
    They only test around 100% of label wattage at the panel connectors on a
    very clear and cool day with a variable resistive load adjusted to find
    the peak, which varies in voltage between identical panels. Barely
    noticeable haze or cirrus can drop them to 50%, overcast to 10% and rain
    below 5%. Fixed mount panels lose power off-angle, you may get only 2
    hours near max power and 5 total per day, unless you can move them. I am
    not in a good location for solar power unless I move panels several
    times a day.



    I have never done this, nor have I ever seen it first hand, but I heard >described a very simple tracking system once. Panels are mounted on a >swivel axis. A box with a slit is placed on either side of the panel.
    A small photovoltaic cell is used to trigger a circuit which moves the
    panel with an actuator depending on condition. Sound complicated and >fiddly, but the idea seems pretty simple. Elevation is adjust every so >often through out the year. I don't recall hearing how it was rest to
    the sunrise horizon at the end of travel. Maybe a timer. No signal
    from either trigger for so many minutes and it trips a circuit that
    powers the panels back to a limit switch using something like a
    6060/6062 board.

    Given today's abundance of advanced flexible processors it might be
    easier to program a small computer system with a 365 day timer, to just
    move the panel/s by dead reckoning every few minutes, and then swing
    back to the sunrise horizon at sunset. Not at sunrise obviously because
    if all backup power is consumed overnight there would be no energy to >restart the system when the sun rises.
    A friend did that using LEDs as photo sensors. They actually work in
    reverse, turning light to voltage instead of voltage to light -
    triggering an arduino
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Fri Jul 31 22:46:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:114jb72$3jgba$1@dont-email.me...

    I have never done this, nor have I ever seen it first hand, but I heard described a very simple tracking system once. Panels are mounted on a
    swivel axis. A box with a slit is placed on either side of the panel.
    A small photovoltaic cell is used to trigger a circuit which moves the
    panel with an actuator depending on condition. Sound complicated and
    fiddly, but the idea seems pretty simple. Elevation is adjust every so
    often through out the year. I don't recall hearing how it was rest to
    the sunrise horizon at the end of travel. Maybe a timer. No signal
    from either trigger for so many minutes and it trips a circuit that
    powers the panels back to a limit switch using something like a
    6060/6062 board.

    Given today's abundance of advanced flexible processors it might be
    easier to program a small computer system with a 365 day timer, to just
    move the panel/s by dead reckoning every few minutes, and then swing
    back to the sunrise horizon at sunset. Not at sunrise obviously because
    if all backup power is consumed overnight there would be no energy to
    restart the system when the sun rises.
    Bob La Londe

    ------------------------------------
    I started to make the 200W panel pole mount track by machining a stainless steel thrust ball bearing to fit its water pipe supports and buying a small
    DC geared motor. The sun sensors can be LEDs on either side of a baffle,
    they also output current when illuminated, though not much. https://www.instructables.com/LEDs-as-light-sensors/
    Comparators with a central dead band sensing the result of the opposing LED outputs would drive an H bridge that can turn the motor either way, usually toward the more lit "sunwise" LED until they are nearly equal. In the
    morning the other "widdershins" LED would rotate it back toward the sun if properly positioned and the panel output to the H bridge is sufficient.
    Those are the direction terms from before clock dials. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-bridge

    Then I decided to make it manually raise and lower, to catch early sun over the roof, especially when the trees are bare. The wind loading on the
    raised pole and tied-down large rotator pulley discouraged me from
    continuing the tracker project, it's guyed in place and in summer it permanently faces a gap between trees. There are other panels on the ground nearby that I have to move around to dodge house and tree shadows every few hours so I'm back there anyway and can rotate it by the guy lines. Wood heat has accustomed me to managing my energy sources.

    I played with an Arduino a little, didn't have a good use for its limited capabilities, then went back to programming on an old laptop running DOS and QBasic which has a nicer interpret or compile IDE, the structured
    programming syntax of Pascal minus its restrictions and all the legacy computer hardware free to use (unlike in Windows), KBD, LCD and HDD for
    files plus COM and LPT whose registers are addressable in the I/O space. LPT is the digital interface to custom external hardware, I've wired it to a DAC chip and comparator as a successive approximation voltmeter. A mouse can be added through a Call Absolute to a pointer to INT33 code stored as a String. https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/oldlinux/Linux.old/docs/interrupts/int-html/int-33.htm




    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat Aug 1 09:14:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:114jmk6$38nvl$1@dont-email.me...

    I started to make the 200W panel pole mount track by machining a stainless steel thrust ball bearing to fit its water pipe supports and buying a
    small DC geared motor.

    Ideally the supporting pole would be aimed at the North Star, a polar
    instead of the present equatorial mount. The panel already pivots vertically with a turnbuckle to adjust for mid-day sun elevation, which I actually measured with a sextant for practice. The structural complexity and strength to withstand wind and snow in a location with morning and afternoon tree
    shade makes that approach highly uneconomical for the small power return. In sunny weather I can often just leave the panels aimed South to fully
    recharge batteries.

    The output doesn't vary that much between summer and winter except around Christmas when pine trees block the low sun, I think because winter's
    clearer sky and colder panels increase their output. The highest is in
    spring and fall, summer heat and haze definitely reduce power. https://8msolar.com/solar-panel-efficiency-vs-temperature/

    This lowered voltage hurts MPPT more than PWM controllers because MPPT converts voltage energy that PWM wastes into more current. MPPT adds more current when the battery is heavily discharged and its voltage low, not as much for daily cycling in a system sized to remain near float voltage except during outages. Also MPPT jams my antenna TV reception. I think MPPT does
    best when a generator unaffected by overcast may be better. MPPT saves wire cost by allowing smaller gauge at higher voltage but I prefer to avoid the shock hazard.

    I've found that solar experimenting may be valuable for my education but it
    is barely worth the cost and effort. Before it I was consuming 4 KWH from
    the grid per day, now I average 2 except when running A/C. That's $0.45 to $0.60 saved per day depending on New England's varying weather and power rates. The only significant change is the T60 freezer added due to Covid supply disruptions, and it ran on solar from the start.

    Battery backup saves food if power fails during the night or you
    intentionally disconnect from the grid before thunderstorms, and allows a generator to be sized for average instead of peak motor starting current
    draw. The solar current maintains lead acid batteries. A simple minimal
    system could be a Jackery type power bank and matched portable solar array
    to top it off outdoors for occasional emergency or off-grid recreational
    use. A clothesline for drying laundry and shrinking your refrigerator size
    and power use to what you really need may save more.

    Lead batteries can cost as much in depreciation as they save from free electricity. A 100Ah battery that costs $100 and lasts for 500 equivalent
    full discharges, which is very optimistic, costs about $0.20 per KWH. Flea market AGMs that had been replaced on schedule may be much cheaper but their remaining lifespan and thus system reliability varies considerably, not good for an emergency backup. Their fading capacity may not be evident in daily cycling. I do get to feel good about repurposing them, for whatever that's worth. I hope LiFePO4 performs as advertised, at least they reduced my
    income tax bill by 30% of their price. I met the requirement to charge them only with solar in exchange for taking the credit by charging the second
    hand batteries with grid or generator power.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat Aug 1 11:18:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 7/31/2026 7:46 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:114jb72$3jgba$1@dont-email.me...

    I have never done this, nor have I ever seen it first hand, but I heard described a very simple tracking system once.-a Panels are mounted on a swivel axis.-a A box with a slit is placed on either side of the panel.
    A small photovoltaic cell is used to trigger a circuit which moves the
    panel with an actuator depending on condition.-a Sound complicated and fiddly, but the idea seems pretty simple.-a Elevation is adjust every so often through out the year.-a I don't recall hearing how it was rest to
    the sunrise horizon at the end of travel.-a Maybe a timer.-a No signal
    from either trigger for so many minutes and it trips a circuit that
    powers the panels back to a limit switch using something like a
    6060/6062 board.

    Given today's abundance of advanced flexible processors it might be
    easier to program a small computer system with a 365 day timer, to just
    move the panel/s by dead reckoning every few minutes, and then swing
    back to the sunrise horizon at sunset.-a Not at sunrise obviously because
    if all backup power is consumed overnight there would be no energy to
    restart the system when the sun rises.
    Bob La Londe

    ------------------------------------
    I started to make the 200W panel pole mount track by machining a
    stainless steel thrust ball bearing to fit its water pipe supports and buying a small DC geared motor. The sun sensors can be LEDs on either
    side of a baffle, they also output current when illuminated, though not much.
    https://www.instructables.com/LEDs-as-light-sensors/
    Comparators with a central dead band sensing the result of the opposing
    LED outputs would drive an H bridge that can turn the motor either way, usually toward the more lit "sunwise" LED until they are nearly equal.
    In the morning the other "widdershins" LED would rotate it back toward
    the sun if properly positioned and the panel output to the H bridge is sufficient. Those are the direction terms from before clock dials. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-bridge

    Then I decided to make it manually raise and lower, to catch early sun
    over the roof, especially when the trees are bare.-a The wind loading on
    the raised pole and tied-down large rotator pulley discouraged me from continuing the tracker project, it's guyed in place and in summer it permanently faces a gap between trees. There are other panels on the
    ground nearby that I have to move around to dodge house and tree shadows every few hours so I'm back there anyway and can rotate it by the guy
    lines. Wood heat has accustomed me to managing my energy sources.

    I played with an Arduino a little, didn't have a good use for its
    limited capabilities, then went back to programming on an old laptop
    running DOS and QBasic which has a nicer interpret or compile IDE, the structured programming syntax of Pascal minus its restrictions and all
    the legacy computer hardware free to use (unlike in Windows), KBD, LCD
    and HDD for files plus COM and LPT whose registers are addressable in
    the I/O space. LPT is the digital interface to custom external hardware, I've wired it to a DAC chip and comparator as a successive approximation voltmeter. A mouse can be added through a Call Absolute to a pointer to INT33 code stored as a String. https://mirror.math.princeton.edu/pub/oldlinux/Linux.old/docs/ interrupts/int-html/int-33.htm





    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug and
    dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to set
    time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of 2016
    for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017 I gave
    it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat Aug 1 16:07:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:114ld8t$3kfuv$1@dont-email.me...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug and
    dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to set
    time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of 2016
    for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017 I gave
    it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    ----------------------------------------
    You can access Visual Basic through MS apps, Write and Excel, though they don't allow the direct I/O port addressing I needed to control external hardware, which was lab development and customer application boards for new ICs.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sun Aug 2 21:45:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:114ld8t$3kfuv$1@dont-email.me...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug and
    dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to set
    time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of 2016
    for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017 I gave
    it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --------------------------------
    I used QB for a program that communicates with my APC1400 UPS, on a non-standard serial port cable. Since it talks by COM instead of LPT the
    .exe can run under Windows, monitoring load power and remaining battery capacity. One port pin has battery 24VDC on it which may be intended as an input for production line testing without installing batteries.

    Another QB program reads the data port of PC-connected multimeters. Some transmit ASCII, others the LCD bar patterns of the numbers which is simple
    to decode with a Select Case structure. There are programs available to read them and record the data but none I've found can send an output command triggered by a reading, a control loop.

    The trickiest one I which wrote when I was on dial-up parsed the modem log
    for the amount of data transmitted on a connection it hadn't seen before and kept track of the monthly total. It was an exercise in the analysis and handling of complex, variable conditions more than programming.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Mon Aug 3 19:47:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    On 7/30/2026 5:11 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Somethign you folk from North America will be familiar with.
    There is a 12V light, fridge and occasional inverter to
    mains-voltage
    system with 12V "leisure" lead-acid battery and photovoltaic (PV)
    charger and charge-regulator.
    For winter when our days are short and sun not bright - would it be
    an
    efficient solution to have a small gasoline engine running a 12V
    generator eg. from a car?
    Would be efficient to have a small engine which runs full-power for a
    shortish time - something like an hour? - then stops.
    Smallest Honda "GX" engine is 100cc.
    Small engine+12V-generator & battery is much more fuel-efficient than
    running a generator supplying power on-demand?
    Tempting thought is - that would happen when it is dark and *cold* -
    therefore if you coudl recover the waste heat of the generator engine it
    would be welcomed.
    I have no knowledge of this - anyone want to get this going?
    Regards,
    Rich Smith

    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might
    think. I ran that gamut some years back setting up burglar alarm
    systems models here there was no power, and in un-powered warehouses.
    I found that if I didn't plan for 4 times the estimated max demand I
    was getting constant low battery communication from the cellular communicators. This is in SW Arizona where arguably it is among the
    best locations in the world for solar power.

    Thanks for that "word to the wise"...
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Mon Aug 3 16:10:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1h5lbdosa.fsf@void.com...


    Just bear in mind solar tends to be less efficient than you might
    think.

    Thanks for that "word to the wise"...

    -------------------------------

    https://cat.org.uk/info-resources/free-information-service/energy/solar-photovoltaic/

    What you legally can or can't do where you live may define the system.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Mon Aug 3 21:13:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    ...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug
    and dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to
    set time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of
    2016 for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017
    I gave it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.

    Digression, but - I used Quick Basic for my first attempts at
    programming back in 1996 - so 30 years ago.
    I could have used the "built-in" BASIC within "MSWindows" then for what
    I was doing, but well - whatever.
    I got a first result showing my algorithm did work as a computational
    solution.
    I realised things got really serious if you were to make the solution 3-Dimensional - one "serious" being that a 3-Dimensional takes the cube
    of the amount of memory for my first 1-Dimensional solution (there were
    almost no 3-Dimensional solutions around then 30 years ago (?)).

    I was pitched into supercomputing at that juncture.
    My world became "unix" ("Linux"), programmed in "C".
    Within a very few months the academics in the Department of Mathematics
    and Computer Science where talking with some amazement at each other as
    they absorbed what I had discovered or deduced myself - which they
    considered what only an expert could comprehend.
    Another "conversation" was a young lady who was a post-doctoral
    researcher, who paused for a long time after looking through my code -
    then picked-up on the "pointers" I had used - per possibilities I had
    read-of in the couple of books I had on programming in "C" (including
    Kernighan and Ritchie's "the" book). Where it turns out I had done about
    the same as a trainee pilot who had learned about the necessity of
    flying low, and the necessity of flying fast, and had just returned from
    a first solo training flight in less than half the time it was supposed to take,
    with a thin haze of smoke coming off the aircraft and leaves and twigs
    jammed in bits of the aeroplane, where they were deducing that the pupil
    on an early solo flight had just flown at Mach 2 at treetop height (which
    would if so leave them handling "PR" issues like windows broken by the supersonic boom at just over head height, cows needing psychotherapy,
    etc.).
    Happy days... :-)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Mon Aug 3 14:03:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 8/3/2026 1:13 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    ...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug
    and dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to
    set time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of
    2016 for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017
    I gave it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.

    Digression, but - I used Quick Basic for my first attempts at
    programming back in 1996 - so 30 years ago.
    I could have used the "built-in" BASIC within "MSWindows" then for what
    I was doing, but well - whatever.
    I got a first result showing my algorithm did work as a computational solution.
    I realised things got really serious if you were to make the solution 3-Dimensional - one "serious" being that a 3-Dimensional takes the cube
    of the amount of memory for my first 1-Dimensional solution (there were almost no 3-Dimensional solutions around then 30 years ago (?)).

    I was pitched into supercomputing at that juncture.
    My world became "unix" ("Linux"), programmed in "C".
    Within a very few months the academics in the Department of Mathematics
    and Computer Science where talking with some amazement at each other as
    they absorbed what I had discovered or deduced myself - which they
    considered what only an expert could comprehend.
    Another "conversation" was a young lady who was a post-doctoral
    researcher, who paused for a long time after looking through my code -
    then picked-up on the "pointers" I had used - per possibilities I had
    read-of in the couple of books I had on programming in "C" (including Kernighan and Ritchie's "the" book). Where it turns out I had done about
    the same as a trainee pilot who had learned about the necessity of
    flying low, and the necessity of flying fast, and had just returned from
    a first solo training flight in less than half the time it was supposed to take,
    with a thin haze of smoke coming off the aircraft and leaves and twigs
    jammed in bits of the aeroplane, where they were deducing that the pupil
    on an early solo flight had just flown at Mach 2 at treetop height (which would if so leave them handling "PR" issues like windows broken by the supersonic boom at just over head height, cows needing psychotherapy,
    etc.).
    Happy days... :-)

    I used Quick basic a little earlier than that. I was struggling with
    Algebra with irrational solutions in college, so I wrote some program to calculate graphs and data points to help me get close. It was so fast I
    had to add a time delay for visual affect before I showed it to my
    Algebra professor. Brilliant guy. From that he learned QB and started
    using it for generating fern graphics. (a fractal set) I showed him
    how much faster C+ was and he rewrote it in C+ and started writing his
    own graphic libraries to go with it, because he didn't get all the
    libraries with his copy of C+. I never really figured out how to write
    the answer as a complete expression, but I learned how to calculate it
    close enough to a gazillion decimal places.

    A little after (or maybe it was before, well around that time) my
    Geology professor was showing off his basic interpretor executing a groundwater saturation study he was working on and proud of how much
    faster the new 386 he had for his department was executing the program
    than the older XTs or even the 286. He was really proud of the fact
    that it only took a few days to run. I showed him how to use an editor
    to semi automatically convert it into Quick basic compatible code and
    compile. The next model ran in a couple hours.

    One of my part time jobs back then was working as a lab tech in the
    computer lab. Mostly just supervising, but I did spend a fair amount of
    time teaching other people how to code or how to be power users.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Mon Aug 3 18:23:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1bjbjdktt.fsf@void.com...

    Where it turns out I had done about
    the same as a trainee pilot who had learned about the necessity of
    flying low, and the necessity of flying fast, and had just returned from
    a first solo training flight in less than half the time it was supposed to take,
    with a thin haze of smoke coming off the aircraft and leaves and twigs
    jammed in bits of the aeroplane, where they were deducing that the pupil
    on an early solo flight had just flown at Mach 2 at treetop height (which
    would if so leave them handling "PR" issues like windows broken by the supersonic boom at just over head height, cows needing psychotherapy,
    etc.).
    Happy days... :-)

    ---------------------------------
    The reward may be like mine, doing engineer work for technician pay.

    Yeager wrote about flying low enough to leave propeller tip marks in a dirt road as a cadet. Pacific ace Richard Bong got in trouble for flying through San Francisco at second (your first) floor level.
    A mast height B-25 bomber skipping bombs across the waves into the side of a ship near New Guinea returned with part of the ship's log book stuck in the radial engine. A B-17 flying low enough for the belly turret gunner to shoot into a beach bunker sanded the paint off the tail on pullout. A B-24 on sea patrol near Indonesia relieved the boredom by flying between rows of
    Japanese barracks with waist guns blazing.
    The Fifth Air Force in New Guinea perfected attacking with medium bombers, locally stuffed with up to a dozen extra .50 machine guns, flying at coconut tree top height to approach and surprise radar-less Japanese air bases. Once the bullet spray had chased the defenders into trenches they dropped parachute-retarded frag bombs that shredded planes and supplies which
    couldn't be buried in the wet ground of the only level areas. http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/a/Parafrag_Bombs.htm
    I have what may be one of their small parachutes. My father and uncle were
    CO and top sergeant of an ordnance company there.

    https://theaviationgeekclub.com/story-behind-famed-sr-71-blackbird-super-low-knife-edge-pass/

    Because of air density the speed record at low level isn't too much over
    Mach 1, around 1000 MPH. John Paul Stapp nearly equaled it on his rocket
    sled.

    I got all of that stupid cadet stuff out of my system in a simulator. I
    don't have the reflexes to fly low down the Grand Canyon or through New York or Chicago.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 13:10:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    On 8/3/2026 1:13 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    ...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug
    and dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to
    set time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of
    2016 for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017
    I gave it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.
    Digression, but - I used Quick Basic for my first attempts at
    programming back in 1996 - so 30 years ago.
    I could have used the "built-in" BASIC within "MSWindows" then for what
    I was doing, but well - whatever.
    I got a first result showing my algorithm did work as a computational
    solution.
    I realised things got really serious if you were to make the solution
    3-Dimensional - one "serious" being that a 3-Dimensional takes the cube
    of the amount of memory for my first 1-Dimensional solution (there were
    almost no 3-Dimensional solutions around then 30 years ago (?)).
    I was pitched into supercomputing at that juncture.
    My world became "unix" ("Linux"), programmed in "C".
    Within a very few months the academics in the Department of Mathematics
    and Computer Science where talking with some amazement at each other as
    they absorbed what I had discovered or deduced myself - which they
    considered what only an expert could comprehend.
    Another "conversation" was a young lady who was a post-doctoral
    researcher, who paused for a long time after looking through my code -
    then picked-up on the "pointers" I had used - per possibilities I had
    read-of in the couple of books I had on programming in "C" (including
    Kernighan and Ritchie's "the" book). Where it turns out I had done about
    the same as a trainee pilot who had learned about the necessity of
    flying low, and the necessity of flying fast, and had just returned from
    a first solo training flight in less than half the time it was supposed to take,
    with a thin haze of smoke coming off the aircraft and leaves and twigs
    jammed in bits of the aeroplane, where they were deducing that the pupil
    on an early solo flight had just flown at Mach 2 at treetop height (which
    would if so leave them handling "PR" issues like windows broken by the
    supersonic boom at just over head height, cows needing psychotherapy,
    etc.).
    Happy days... :-)

    I used Quick basic a little earlier than that. I was struggling with
    Algebra with irrational solutions in college, so I wrote some program
    to calculate graphs and data points to help me get close. It was so
    fast I had to add a time delay for visual affect before I showed it to
    my Algebra professor. Brilliant guy. From that he learned QB and
    started using it for generating fern graphics. (a fractal set) I
    showed him how much faster C+ was and he rewrote it in C+ and started
    writing his own graphic libraries to go with it, because he didn't get
    all the libraries with his copy of C+. I never really figured out how
    to write the answer as a complete expression, but I learned how to
    calculate it close enough to a gazillion decimal places.

    A little after (or maybe it was before, well around that time) my
    Geology professor was showing off his basic interpretor executing a groundwater saturation study he was working on and proud of how much
    faster the new 386 he had for his department was executing the program
    than the older XTs or even the 286. He was really proud of the fact
    that it only took a few days to run. I showed him how to use an
    editor to semi automatically convert it into Quick basic compatible
    code and compile. The next model ran in a couple hours.

    One of my part time jobs back then was working as a lab tech in the
    computer lab. Mostly just supervising, but I did spend a fair amount
    of time teaching other people how to code or how to be power users.

    Speed of computation - he went from interpreted BASIC to compiled
    binaries from "QuickBASIC"?

    They warn these days that an interpreter running the sparse "script" can
    often far better use the computer's hardware that a "clunky" compiled
    program in eg. "C".

    There is thought that programs like "C" now only belong down in the
    operating system or when writing the core of interpreters?
    Linus Torvalds of the Linux project says that to this day he delights in "polishing" code to get optimised fastest run-times for core components
    of the operating system.

    This nearly three decades ago I realised anything done once like the
    "set-up" where the program "comes-alive" - "just" make the program
    obvious to follow and forget about run-speed because you do it once.
    But when you get into the "working tips" of the program where pieces of resultant code will be used million(s) of times a second - do optimise
    the code for run-speed. In those parts of the code I made code with no branching decisions, etc., and made separate "nuggets" of code which
    were mostly identical but hard-encoded different circumstances.
    [in my code it was different geometric positions / situations]
    The compiler's "optimiser" broke at far below the final size of the
    program, so I was very glad I wrote it to be "fast as written" - as I
    had to set the compiler's optimiser option to zero - don't try to
    optimise at all - write binary code exactly as expressed in the program.
    That was one of the "amazement" things - that I had come to this level
    of perception.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 10:04:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1jyq6gk7u.fsf@void.com...

    Speed of computation - he went from interpreted BASIC to compiled
    binaries from "QuickBASIC"?

    When I was writing an I2C driver in QB I needed to time the data and clock
    bit durations and had an attached oscilloscope to measure them. A compiled integer FOR NEXT loop used two clock cycles per pass, 500MHz (2nS) on a 1GHz CPU. The To count was a variable I could change. One I/O write to LPT was hardware limited to around 1 microsecond, varying between computers. The few other instructions I looked at ran impressively fast.

    The servo loop to set the count started long and reported how many RTC clock ticks had passed, then made a slightly low correction and repeated up or
    down until the I2C bit rate was acceptably close to 100Kbps, or at least I could detect a failed connection. My timing scheme needed patching as CPU speeds rapidly rose and fell apart when SpeedStep was introduced.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 13:08:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 8/4/2026 5:10 AM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    On 8/3/2026 1:13 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
    Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

    ...

    The very last actual computer program I ever wrote was a Quick Basic
    (4.5) executable running under PCDOS 7.0. Due to a partial Y2K bug
    and dead cmos battery I called it in my autoexec to bring up a menu to >>>> set time and date upon boot up. I used that computer until the end of >>>> 2016 for remote programming some older lines of alarm panels. In 2017 >>>> I gave it to the company that purchased my alarm accounts.
    Digression, but - I used Quick Basic for my first attempts at
    programming back in 1996 - so 30 years ago.
    I could have used the "built-in" BASIC within "MSWindows" then for what
    I was doing, but well - whatever.
    I got a first result showing my algorithm did work as a computational
    solution.
    I realised things got really serious if you were to make the solution
    3-Dimensional - one "serious" being that a 3-Dimensional takes the cube
    of the amount of memory for my first 1-Dimensional solution (there were
    almost no 3-Dimensional solutions around then 30 years ago (?)).
    I was pitched into supercomputing at that juncture.
    My world became "unix" ("Linux"), programmed in "C".
    Within a very few months the academics in the Department of Mathematics
    and Computer Science where talking with some amazement at each other as
    they absorbed what I had discovered or deduced myself - which they
    considered what only an expert could comprehend.
    Another "conversation" was a young lady who was a post-doctoral
    researcher, who paused for a long time after looking through my code -
    then picked-up on the "pointers" I had used - per possibilities I had
    read-of in the couple of books I had on programming in "C" (including
    Kernighan and Ritchie's "the" book). Where it turns out I had done about >>> the same as a trainee pilot who had learned about the necessity of
    flying low, and the necessity of flying fast, and had just returned from >>> a first solo training flight in less than half the time it was supposed to take,
    with a thin haze of smoke coming off the aircraft and leaves and twigs
    jammed in bits of the aeroplane, where they were deducing that the pupil >>> on an early solo flight had just flown at Mach 2 at treetop height (which >>> would if so leave them handling "PR" issues like windows broken by the
    supersonic boom at just over head height, cows needing psychotherapy,
    etc.).
    Happy days... :-)

    I used Quick basic a little earlier than that. I was struggling with
    Algebra with irrational solutions in college, so I wrote some program
    to calculate graphs and data points to help me get close. It was so
    fast I had to add a time delay for visual affect before I showed it to
    my Algebra professor. Brilliant guy. From that he learned QB and
    started using it for generating fern graphics. (a fractal set) I
    showed him how much faster C+ was and he rewrote it in C+ and started
    writing his own graphic libraries to go with it, because he didn't get
    all the libraries with his copy of C+. I never really figured out how
    to write the answer as a complete expression, but I learned how to
    calculate it close enough to a gazillion decimal places.

    A little after (or maybe it was before, well around that time) my
    Geology professor was showing off his basic interpretor executing a
    groundwater saturation study he was working on and proud of how much
    faster the new 386 he had for his department was executing the program
    than the older XTs or even the 286. He was really proud of the fact
    that it only took a few days to run. I showed him how to use an
    editor to semi automatically convert it into Quick basic compatible
    code and compile. The next model ran in a couple hours.

    One of my part time jobs back then was working as a lab tech in the
    computer lab. Mostly just supervising, but I did spend a fair amount
    of time teaching other people how to code or how to be power users.

    Speed of computation - he went from interpreted BASIC to compiled
    binaries from "QuickBASIC"?

    They warn these days that an interpreter running the sparse "script" can often far better use the computer's hardware that a "clunky" compiled
    program in eg. "C".


    They make those arguments when using a mid level programming language to
    write code for an operating system written in a mid level programming language. You are functionally running through two levels of the same libraries of included functions. I don't know if its still true, but
    Windows used to mostly be written in C, so using C meant there were
    included libraries at multiple levels if you write to run compatibly
    under windows. I don't know if its truly even valid, but I can see it
    as a case for making the argument. I haven't written any real code in
    over 20 years, so I would have to test it. It also of course depends on
    how the code was written.

    Computers are so fast now by comparison it probably doesn't matter which
    is faster.

    I can literally render multiple machine operations and complex CAD image simultaneously on my desktop PC, and its not even the fastest computer I
    own.

    As somebody who wrote, basic, C+, QuickBasic, Cobol, and assembler.
    Compiled code was always faster then interpreted code back then. Of all
    of those assembler created the fastest executable and CHASM (cheap
    assembler) wrote the fastest executable of assemblers I used. When I
    was learning to write assembler I found machine function calls were much faster than OS (DOS) function calls, but not all BIOS were created
    equal. Sometimes you would make a bios function call and it would trash
    all the registers. For class work on a deadline I would then switch to
    using the DOS calls because generally they used a different method to
    preserve working parameters. For fast personal code I would PUSH the
    register values on the stack, and then POP them back after the function.
    It was still faster than using the DOS function calls, but error
    checking everything took longer to code.

    I don't recall which BIOS' or revisions anymore, but I documented more
    than a couple issues like that with different supposedly cross
    compatible BIOS.

    So the true answer I suspect is, "it depends." In this age when an
    operating system source code is a hundred million lines and documenting
    it all across dozens of ever changing programmers it may just be
    "easiest" to trust the OS to handle everything, unless your program
    wrests total control of the machine.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 18:24:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:114tgr5$3rno7$1@dont-email.me...

    As somebody who wrote, basic, C+, QuickBasic, Cobol, and assembler.
    Compiled code was always faster then interpreted code back then. Of all
    of those assembler created the fastest executable and CHASM (cheap
    assembler) wrote the fastest executable of assemblers I used.

    --------------------------------------------

    I began at the bottom and clawed my way up.

    After completing an 8080 training module the company awarded me a CPU, which
    I used to design and wire-wrap a computer with engineering sample memory
    chips and data and address entry switches. They entered a bootstrap loader that could read a boot program on Teletype tape, top down so the last write jumped to executing it. I found and added an octal keyboard which sped up programming hand-assembled code considerably. The 8080 instruction makes
    sense in octal, each digit specifies an accumulator register. At the time Radio Shack carried Intel and Motorola processors and peripheral chips.

    I coded a simple operating system that could write to and read from first
    the Teletype, then a modem I designed and a cassette recorder. The first serious app was a text editor, then an assembler/disassembler function
    within it that documented the code I had hand-written to a printed text
    file.

    By then the 8080's lack of relative jumps was becoming a hindrance, applications all had to run the the space they were written for. I had acquired enough hardware and software experience to set it aside for night school that helped me take up testing, engineering and Pascal programming on an LSI-11 project.

    Rest clipped, I need to stop blabbing and hammer sheet metal for the car.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 15:47:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 8/4/2026 3:24 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Rest clipped, I need to stop blabbing and hammer sheet metal for the car.


    I resemble that remark.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 16:16:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 8/4/2026 1:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

    I don't recall which BIOS' or revisions anymore, but I documented more
    than a couple issues like that with different supposedly cross
    compatible BIOS.

    I should add when I was taking most of my programming classes at home I
    had a Tandy1400HD (V20 processor) laptop, a generic XT with an 8088
    processor, and an early AT with a 286 processor. I would typically
    write on the AT, and test my code on all three machines. I did not have
    a color monitor at the time, but I did have a Hercules color card in the
    XT, and a very simple VGA card in the AT (maybe that was later I
    forget). In order to keep track of things on screen I would pick random
    color codes for particular types of information or menu items, so the brightness would be different on the CRT.

    The Tandy had some quirk of its architecture so it would address a
    little more ram than just 640 like a regular XT.

    One of my instructors started testing student programs on a 386, that
    had an actual honest to goodness color monitor and he was impressed with
    how I made order of everything on screen by color. I had completely
    forgotten about using the color codes by then. Fortunately I picked
    colors at random that didn't look to terrible.

    My first programs were written on a Commodore Pet 2001 with a tape
    drive. Then I started writing basic on a HeathKit H89A with a Z80
    processor if I recall. My dad built it from a kit. The most complex
    program I remember writing back then was a strictly text based version
    of Mastermind using numbers instead of colors. I was in the process of writing a similar style blackjack game program when we took a massive
    voltage surge, the surge suppressor behind the air hockey table we were
    using as a computer blew up and flames shot 3-4 feet up the wall. Sadly
    the Heathkit didn't survive. I guess when you hit a surge suppressor so
    hard it explodes it doesn't stop the voltage spike. It was a power
    company mistake in the field. They paid for a lot of refrigerator
    motors from what I heard, although ours didn't die from it.

    In high school I wrote several simple video games starting with a simple version of pong using the paddle controllers that came with the Apple
    II(s) we had in the math department. I wrote some basic space invaders
    style games, and I was working on a D&D like texted based game with
    tracked random threats and rewards in each room. The contents of the
    room or dungeon were random, but then stored for the duration of the
    game stored in a massive array. I was doing some testing when it a loop condition I missed closed and it started doing continuous drive access.
    I was just about to pull the plug out of the wall when smoke poured out
    of the drive. Yeah I smoked hardware with software. I'm still not sure
    how I did that because drive access was supposed to be minimal.

    An instructor once asked me to write a program to generate a test for
    his algebra class with random computer generated problems on each test
    so they couldn't cheat. It worked great until he walked over to me with
    a big stack of completed tests and asked for the answer keys. You know
    he kicked me out of his class 13 different times in one semester. I
    still got the 'A' I earned though. LOL.

    I did some playing with an HP 9825A the year before, but with a tape
    drive and a one line LED display its was kinda slow and tedious to do anything. Mostly I just played around with it when I was bored with
    playing poker in study hall.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 16:30:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 8/4/2026 4:16 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 8/4/2026 1:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

    I don't recall which BIOS' or revisions anymore, but I documented more
    than a couple issues like that with different supposedly cross
    compatible BIOS.

    I should add when I was taking most of my programming classes at home I
    had a Tandy1400HD (V20 processor) laptop, a generic XT with an 8088 processor, and an early AT with a 286 processor.-a-a I would typically
    write on the AT, and test my code on all three machines.-a I did not have
    a color monitor at the time, but I did have a Hercules color card in the
    XT, and a very simple VGA card in the AT (maybe that was later I
    forget).-a In order to keep track of things on screen I would pick random color codes for particular types of information or menu items, so the brightness would be different on the CRT.

    The Tandy had some quirk of its architecture so it would address a
    little more ram than just 640 like a regular XT.

    One of my instructors started testing student programs on a 386, that
    had an actual honest to goodness color monitor and he was impressed with
    how I made order of everything on screen by color.-a I had completely forgotten about using the color codes by then.-a Fortunately I picked
    colors at random that didn't look to terrible.

    My first programs were written on a Commodore Pet 2001 with a tape
    drive.-a Then I started writing basic on a HeathKit H89A with a Z80 processor if I recall.-a My dad built it from a kit.-a The most complex program I remember writing back then was a strictly text based version
    of Mastermind using numbers instead of colors.-a I was in the process of writing a similar style blackjack game program when we took a massive voltage surge, the surge suppressor behind the air hockey table we were using as a computer blew up and flames shot 3-4 feet up the wall.-a Sadly the Heathkit didn't survive.-a I guess when you hit a surge suppressor so hard it explodes it doesn't stop the voltage spike.-a It was a power
    company mistake in the field.-a They paid for a lot of refrigerator
    motors from what I heard, although ours didn't die from it.

    In high school I wrote several simple video games starting with a simple version of pong using the paddle controllers that came with the Apple
    II(s) we had in the math department. I wrote some basic space invaders
    style games, and I was working on a D&D like texted based game with
    tracked random threats and rewards in each room.-a The contents of the
    room or dungeon were random, but then stored for the duration of the
    game stored in a massive array.-a I was doing some testing when it a loop condition I missed closed and it started doing continuous drive access.
    I was just about to pull the plug out of the wall when smoke poured out
    of the drive.-a Yeah I smoked hardware with software.-a I'm still not sure how I did that because drive access was supposed to be minimal.

    An instructor once asked me to write a program to generate a test for
    his algebra class with random computer generated problems on each test
    so they couldn't cheat.-a It worked great until he walked over to me with
    a big stack of completed tests and asked for the answer keys.-a You know
    he kicked me out of his class 13 different times in one semester.-a I
    still got the 'A' I earned though.-a LOL.

    I did some playing with an HP 9825A the year before, but with a tape
    drive and a one line LED display its was kinda slow and tedious to do anything.-a Mostly I just played around with it when I was bored with playing poker in study hall.


    I once ran some outdoor speakers from my stereo on the place I was
    renting so I could listen to music when working on my truck. I also had
    my computer sound tied to my stereo for gaming. One night I was playing
    a tank combat game and forgot I had the outdoor speakers turned on. My neighbors called the landlord who sent somebody over to tell me to stop bombing the neighborhood.
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
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  • From David Billington@djb@invalid.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed Aug 5 00:35:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    On 05/08/2026 00:16, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 8/4/2026 1:08 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

    I don't recall which BIOS' or revisions anymore, but I documented
    more than a couple issues like that with different supposedly cross
    compatible BIOS.

    I should add when I was taking most of my programming classes at home
    I had a Tandy1400HD (V20 processor) laptop, a generic XT with an 8088 processor, and an early AT with a 286 processor.-a-a I would typically
    write on the AT, and test my code on all three machines.-a I did not
    have a color monitor at the time, but I did have a Hercules color card
    in the XT, and a very simple VGA card in the AT (maybe that was later
    I forget).-a In order to keep track of things on screen I would pick
    random color codes for particular types of information or menu items,
    so the brightness would be different on the CRT.

    The Tandy had some quirk of its architecture so it would address a
    little more ram than just 640 like a regular XT.

    One of my instructors started testing student programs on a 386, that
    had an actual honest to goodness color monitor and he was impressed
    with how I made order of everything on screen by color. I had
    completely forgotten about using the color codes by then. Fortunately
    I picked colors at random that didn't look to terrible.

    My first programs were written on a Commodore Pet 2001 with a tape
    drive.-a Then I started writing basic on a HeathKit H89A with a Z80 processor if I recall.-a My dad built it from a kit.-a The most complex program I remember writing back then was a strictly text based version
    of Mastermind using numbers instead of colors.-a I was in the process
    of writing a similar style blackjack game program when we took a
    massive voltage surge, the surge suppressor behind the air hockey
    table we were using as a computer blew up and flames shot 3-4 feet up
    the wall.-a Sadly the Heathkit didn't survive.-a I guess when you hit a surge suppressor so hard it explodes it doesn't stop the voltage
    spike.-a It was a power company mistake in the field.-a They paid for a
    lot of refrigerator motors from what I heard, although ours didn't die
    from it.

    In high school I wrote several simple video games starting with a
    simple version of pong using the paddle controllers that came with the
    Apple II(s) we had in the math department. I wrote some basic space
    invaders style games, and I was working on a D&D like texted based
    game with tracked random threats and rewards in each room.-a The
    contents of the room or dungeon were random, but then stored for the duration of the game stored in a massive array.-a I was doing some
    testing when it a loop condition I missed closed and it started doing continuous drive access. I was just about to pull the plug out of the
    wall when smoke poured out of the drive. Yeah I smoked hardware with software.-a I'm still not sure how I did that because drive access was supposed to be minimal.

    HCF instruction?


    An instructor once asked me to write a program to generate a test for
    his algebra class with random computer generated problems on each test
    so they couldn't cheat.-a It worked great until he walked over to me
    with a big stack of completed tests and asked for the answer keys.-a
    You know he kicked me out of his class 13 different times in one
    semester.-a I still got the 'A' I earned though.-a LOL.

    I did some playing with an HP 9825A the year before, but with a tape
    drive and a one line LED display its was kinda slow and tedious to do anything.-a Mostly I just played around with it when I was bored with playing poker in study hall.


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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue Aug 4 23:02:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "David Billington" wrote in message news:114tt0m$2ia69$1@dont-email.me...

    HCF instruction?

    Halt & Catch Fire?

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  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed Aug 5 09:13:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Reading the "programming experiences" - haven't we developed our own
    expertises and acquired what we had to acquire to do our "bench" and "application" tasks? I am sorry I've pontificated on about my own very
    narrow things. Perspective is restored - aren't we folk who will learn anything which makes a path to a goal defined in the physical world?

    We had to be very close to the computer hardware more than two decades
    ago, because our big ideas and dreams proved bigger than computer memory availability, etc., when we improvised our way in.
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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed Aug 5 09:32:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1mrv13rzj.fsf@void.com...

    Reading the "programming experiences" - haven't we developed our own
    expertises and acquired what we had to acquire to do our "bench" and "application" tasks? I am sorry I've pontificated on about my own very
    narrow things. Perspective is restored - aren't we folk who will learn anything which makes a path to a goal defined in the physical world?

    We had to be very close to the computer hardware more than two decades
    ago, because our big ideas and dreams proved bigger than computer memory availability, etc., when we improvised our way in.

    -----------------------------------

    For me understanding computer and other new electronic hardware was a way to advance after my career as a chemist was cut short, first by the draft blocking grad school and then the EPA chasing the industry off-shore. Returning to college full-time again was out and seeking an EE degree at
    night while supporting myself proved impractical though I did try. That
    ended when I fell asleep driving home late and woke up with wheels in the gravel.

    The rapidly evolving computer landscape gave me an opening to be valuable
    and advance by keeping current with new developments. I'd always been a very hands-on builder with good near vision and fine motor skills, and noticed
    that technicians did hobby-like bench work generally without annoyances
    while degreed engineers sat and argued in meetings. There was very little competent competition for both designing and constructing small projects or parts of larger ones sized for one person, especially for handling
    electronic hardware plus software plus mechanical packaging. The job of technician is open-ended, Arnold Wilkins contributed as much or more to
    early British radar as Watson-Watt.

    When I saw James Bond I knew immediately that I wanted instead to work for
    or become Q, and in Army Basic I actually got to make that choice.

    I made a spray can that sprayed when tested and could also contain secret passwords etc, a light bulb that stored a hidden key, and folded and
    soldered tin can steel and copper pipe scrap into a candy bar sized box that unfolded into a crossbow which shot darts with X-Cube flashbulbs heads that flashed on impact.

    I could usually solve a problem in a way too simple to patent as a
    commercial product so I kept quiet and was paid to built the solutions
    others had proposed, twice after reducing its complexity and cost by half or more. Example are the very simple solar tracker circuit I mentioned, my sealing and insulating inserts that double the efficiency of standard
    windows and a sink spray replacing a shower head, which began as a cold weather dog washer.

    I clean my wood stove chimney weekly from ground level by pulling one cord
    to flip open the rain cap and another to hoist up, swing over and drop in a weighted shop-made brush of nylon string trimmer cord, curve up to slide
    down easily when very cold and then dig in upward. The metal chimney rests
    on a shelf with clearance underneath for a tub to contain the soot. My roof gutters are on shop-made hangers that leave the top clear for a cleaning
    scoop on a swimming pool extension pole.

    AFAIK no one has copied my folding heavy hoisting tripod which is too easily made to protect with a patent. I may ask the trade school engineering
    teacher who taught 3D CAD to see if he can analyze the multiple angular stresses in the joint. I go by what has deformed and been upgraded. I'd like to know if the leg loading vector is close enough to centered axially to justify k=1 in a column strength formula, which gives a high capacity with common light weight material.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Wed Aug 5 21:33:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1mrv13rzj.fsf@void.com...

    We had to be very close to the computer hardware more than two decades
    ago, because our big ideas and dreams proved bigger than computer memory availability, etc., when we improvised our way in.

    -----------------------------------
    The company where I worked in the 80's built production line testers for the memory and other IC manufacturers. They had the problem of creating a test pattern that was to be written and read back as fast as possible in memory smaller and perhaps slower than the newest product it was testing.

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  • From Richard Smith@null@void.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Aug 6 05:34:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    I believe I recognise the core of these things you try to portray.

    I gather there was some of ingenuity in the British defence industry as
    it was being benevolently managed by the Government through the 1960's
    and 1970's ish. Someone with a Trade background running a facility
    described maintaining a small "free-standing" workshop offline to the production, where if one of the "boffins" turned-up with an idea, that
    "boffin" could try to make it, mentored by technicians, getting all the
    wisdom, and "see where it went".

    Best wishes
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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Thu Aug 6 09:39:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:m1ik5nq33k.fsf@void.com...

    I believe I recognise the core of these things you try to portray.

    I gather there was some of ingenuity in the British defence industry as
    it was being benevolently managed by the Government through the 1960's
    and 1970's ish. Someone with a Trade background running a facility
    described maintaining a small "free-standing" workshop offline to the production, where if one of the "boffins" turned-up with an idea, that
    "boffin" could try to make it, mentored by technicians, getting all the
    wisdom, and "see where it went".

    Best wishes
    ---------------------------
    In the US that would be a toolroom or model shop. In my experience the
    primary machine tool was a Bridgeport or clone, doubling as the drill press,
    a lathe was optional. For newer machinery the rotating wear parts a lathe
    can make usually could be bought. For making my own designs from scratch at home that's reversed.

    The instructor for the ham radio course at Mitre was a retired British radar boffin / wizard who was still actively experimenting and building exotic hardware. Some of it looked like musical instruments because microwave band wavelengths are similar to those of sound, and brass is sufficiently conductive and convenient to work with.

    Usually the Ph.D gave me a sketch and the data sheets of the critical parts
    he had ordered, then left me alone to implement it. I suspect they didn't
    want to embarrass themselves by revealing they didn't know the practical details or methods, I also resoldered stuff their kids had broken. By being able to do the mechanical fabrication as well, sheet metal enclosures and milled microwave or optical housings, I avoided the inevitable disagreements and delays of depending on another tech or shop.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/manufacturing-vs-design-which-really-harder-i0b7e
    "Plans rarely survive first contact with the production floor."
    "Design often sees manufacturing only when something explodes"

    The auto exec Ph.D from India whose antilock brake controller failed to pass specifications didn't know that available resistors have tolerances, he expected 8 digit precision of the 2nd order wheel deceleration curve and its detection.

    The mechanical engineers at Segway were much more hands-on, I often had to
    use their manual or my own machine tools because the CNC machines were busy.

    The old car I'm fixing suffers from shortcuts that let water enter and
    collect where it shouldn't. For instance a moderate buildup of tree debris
    in the cowl will let water flood over the low cabin air intake lip and pool
    on the passenger floor. The cowl end drains allowed water and debris to
    enter the areas that rusted. Cleaning the cowl channel meant breaking some
    of the snap-in plastic retainers the dealer charges several $ apiece for.
    They are now all stainless screws and U clips. The push clips are tolerable
    to install and remove if stainless screws replace the plastic expansion
    pins.

    I attend classic car shows to learn how others made repairs. Too often I
    learn they were skilled at writing big checks.

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