• More power is not always a good solution

    From AMuzi@am@yellowjersey.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Jul 29 14:06:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    am@yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Jul 29 21:44:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts. Though the speeds are generally lower, such bikes are wow thatrCOs quick on fire road climbs but elsewhere seem to be mostly just a MTB in my experience, even on the
    uphills, if itrCOs not just a fire road, the motor will not do much on the technical bits, thatrCOs where rider skill/bike geometry/suspension/tyre
    choice matter. Let alone downhill where the extra mass isnrCOt particularly useful.

    Roger Merriman

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark J cleary@mcleary08@comcast.net to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Jul 29 17:10:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 7/29/2026 4:44 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts. Though the speeds are generally lower, such bikes are wow thatrCOs quick on fire road climbs but elsewhere seem to be mostly just a MTB in my experience, even on the
    uphills, if itrCOs not just a fire road, the motor will not do much on the technical bits, thatrCOs where rider skill/bike geometry/suspension/tyre choice matter. Let alone downhill where the extra mass isnrCOt particularly useful.

    Roger Merriman

    Ebike need serious regulation at least in some instances they are no
    different than a motorcycle. A regular bike human powered in my book is actully quite a different animal.
    --
    Deacon Mark
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Thu Jul 30 09:09:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Mark J cleary <mcleary08@comcast.net> wrote:
    On 7/29/2026 4:44 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds
    which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if
    delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts. Though the speeds are >> generally lower, such bikes are wow thatrCOs quick on fire road climbs but >> elsewhere seem to be mostly just a MTB in my experience, even on the
    uphills, if itrCOs not just a fire road, the motor will not do much on the >> technical bits, thatrCOs where rider skill/bike geometry/suspension/tyre
    choice matter. Let alone downhill where the extra mass isnrCOt particularly >> useful.

    Roger Merriman

    Ebike need serious regulation at least in some instances they are no different than a motorcycle. A regular bike human powered in my book is actully quite a different animal.

    The E motos have throttles which does rather change how folks use them,
    plus most for example would fall apart quite rapidly if use off road!
    Despite the fat tyres if smaller such bikes are sold as de facto mopeds ie
    E motos, plus there power delivery is much less sophisticated, the E MTB
    will not suddenly cut in, which would break traction on technical climbs or just manoeuvring though rock gardens.

    To be fair the E motos do sound like they are going faster as they have
    wide fat bike tyres if small diameter so produce a fair bit of road rumble. IrCOve passed number at low 20rCOs okay not legal but not 30+ which in the UK at least is relatively rare, the riders behaviour suggests they do know
    their bikes arenrCOt legal so advertising them selfs to the police isnrCOt wise!

    Roger Merriman

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ted Heise@theise@panix.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Thu Jul 30 13:57:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great interest
    to me.
    --
    Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> Gretna, NE, USA
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ted Heise@theise@panix.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Fri Jul 31 13:37:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC),
    Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great
    interest to me.

    Oh, and I should have added that the article designating it as "an
    illegal e-moto" raised an eyebrow. My thought was it *could* have
    been legal if it had been registered and licensed (ridden by a
    licensed operator, of course). I STFW about that concept and
    learned the vehicle in question does not meet some national
    standards that are necesary to license a moto, so it was indeed
    implicitly illegal.
    --
    Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> Gretna, NE, USA
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From AMuzi@am@yellowjersey.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Fri Jul 31 09:50:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 7/31/2026 8:37 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC),
    Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great
    interest to me.

    Oh, and I should have added that the article designating it as "an
    illegal e-moto" raised an eyebrow. My thought was it *could* have
    been legal if it had been registered and licensed (ridden by a
    licensed operator, of course). I STFW about that concept and
    learned the vehicle in question does not meet some national
    standards that are necesary to license a moto, so it was indeed
    implicitly illegal.


    Although there are Federal guidelines and some EPA
    regulation, actual vehicle requirements, definitions,
    limitations etc are in State statutes.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    am@yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From AMuzi@am@yellowjersey.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Fri Jul 31 10:15:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 7/31/2026 9:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
    On 7/31/2026 8:37 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC),
    -a-a Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
    -a On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    -a-a-a AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    -a 17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    -a https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-
    killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    -a Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great
    -a interest to me.

    Oh, and I should have added that the article designating
    it as "an
    illegal e-moto" raised an eyebrow.-a My thought was it
    *could* have
    been legal if it had been registered and licensed (ridden
    by a
    licensed operator, of course).-a I STFW about that concept and
    learned the vehicle in question does not meet some national
    standards that are necesary to license a moto, so it was
    indeed
    implicitly illegal.


    Although there are Federal guidelines and some EPA
    regulation, actual vehicle requirements, definitions,
    limitations etc are in State statutes.


    p.s. UK cyclingindustry.news/met-police-set-new-record-and-seize-2500-illegal-ebikes-and-escooters
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    am@yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Wolfgang Strobl@news51@mystrobl.de to rec.bicycles.tech on Sat Aug 1 12:59:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Am Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC) schrieb Ted Heise
    <theise@panix.com>:

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great interest
    to me.

    Cycle lanes right in the middle of the road are madness. They
    make absolutely no sense and are even worse than normal cycle
    lanes, regardless of whether the bike in question is legal or
    not.
    --
    Thank you for observing all safety precautions
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Sat Aug 1 12:53:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC) schrieb Ted Heise <theise@panix.com>:

    On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great interest
    to me.

    Cycle lanes right in the middle of the road are madness. They
    make absolutely no sense and are even worse than normal cycle
    lanes, regardless of whether the bike in question is legal or
    not.

    IrCOm assuming itrCOs somehow related to Brooklyn Bridge which IrCOm guessing has
    some cycle infrastructure? There is a small section I very occasionally use where you ride down the central walkway which connects up to a walkway over
    a junction to the A3 which is a motorway in all but name.

    ItrCOs awkward with needing to cross traffic 4 times in a short distance, but itrCOs cheap.

    The road is a suburban dual carriageway and thus using it is royal pain as yourCOll have to double back to make the right turn to follow the Hogsmill river, which is the only reason I go that way, I have since discovered a
    better route so avoid that junction and itrCOs odd layout entirely, itrCOs a area that was built in the age of the car so is fairly poor environment and awkward to travel around, in any form of transport.

    <https://maps.app.goo.gl/DMKoKrQk58XDFJP47>


    Roger Merriman
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Sat Aug 1 14:18:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    On 7/31/2026 9:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
    On 7/31/2026 8:37 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jul 2026 13:57:09 -0000 (UTC),
    -a-a Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> wrote:
    -a On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 14:06:43 -0500,
    -a-a-a AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    -a 17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    -a https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-
    killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    -a Thanks for posting these links, it's a subject of great
    -a interest to me.

    Oh, and I should have added that the article designating
    it as "an
    illegal e-moto" raised an eyebrow.-a My thought was it
    *could* have
    been legal if it had been registered and licensed (ridden
    by a
    licensed operator, of course).-a I STFW about that concept and
    learned the vehicle in question does not meet some national
    standards that are necesary to license a moto, so it was
    indeed
    implicitly illegal.


    Although there are Federal guidelines and some EPA
    regulation, actual vehicle requirements, definitions,
    limitations etc are in State statutes.


    p.s. UK cyclingindustry.news/met-police-set-new-record-and-seize-2500-illegal-ebikes-and-escooters

    Consider uk police have recently destroyed a Tern bike ie totally legal and common cargo bike hence this video.

    <https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbVN_YNPA4W/?igsh=MWwzeTF1OWRjbGlvdQ==>

    The police rCLprovedrCY it was illegal by just spinning the pedals with the wheels off the road, getting the bike with some vigorous spinning well
    above the assistance point, the motor had corrected cut off despite this
    but they still destroyed it and then backed down few days later when it hit
    the media.

    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyx5j7rm6no>

    Uk police so rarely do any attempts to check the E motos IrCOd expect it to fluctuate depending on how many times they have run such campaigns, than in
    of its self show a rise.

    I see them in areas they know will not get police presence and unlikely to
    get questioned. There behaviour suggests they know itrCOs illegal ie by minimising contact!

    Roger Merriman

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Wolfgang Strobl@news51@mystrobl.de to rec.bicycles.tech on Sun Aug 9 15:03:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Am 29 Jul 2026 21:44:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds >which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if >delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts.

    This regulation has almost no teeth. Those 250 watts are the
    permitted continuous rated power*) for E-bikes limited to 25
    km/h. In fact, the relevant regulation for Europe as applied in
    Germany does not specify a limit for peak power at all. The only
    relevant and somewhat enforced limit is "no motor power above a
    speed of 25 km/h". There are some sensible additional saftety
    regulations, like with regard to thermal behavior, but these are
    rarely checked or even enforced.

    My problem with these 25 km/h-E-Bikes isn't the motorization, but
    the fact that these have been made bicycles by law in 2013.
    Technically, these so called bicycles still are mopeds. The fact
    that you need a certain amount of strength to turn a throttle
    doesnrCOt make them bicycles either. But people have been led to
    believe that these mopeds are bicycles, and they believe it
    because they _want_ that to be true.


    Though the speeds are
    generally lower, such bikes are wow thatrCOs quick on fire road climbs but >elsewhere seem to be mostly just a MTB in my experience, even on the
    uphills, if itrCOs not just a fire road, the motor will not do much on the >technical bits, thatrCOs where rider skill/bike geometry/suspension/tyre >choice matter. Let alone downhill where the extra mass isnrCOt particularly >useful.

    Powerfull enough to allow weak riders to damage former walking
    paths beyond recognition. Been there, seen that.

    By the way, why do you think people use e-MTBs off-road when the
    motor has no use there?

    ---

    *) Average power over a 30-minute moving window. For example ten
    minutes with 500 watt plus twenty minutes with 125 Watt.

    For comparison, according to Garmin, I could slightly exceed an
    average of 500 watts for twenty seconds, but that was over four
    years ago. Still can do - for about five seconds. For
    comparison, an average adult on a road bike needs only about 120
    watt in order to sustain a speed of 25 km/h. If you add 3.4
    times (340 per cent) the motor power to your own effort, that is
    not "pedal assistance" (Tretunterst|+tzung) anymore, as they call
    it here, but essentially a almost complete replacement of muscle
    power with motor power. The human power curve isn't linear. <https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=iK5cTU5TXn8LFtzx05CUx7>
    --
    Wir danken f|+r die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Sun Aug 9 14:51:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am 29 Jul 2026 21:44:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds
    which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if
    delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts.

    This regulation has almost no teeth. Those 250 watts are the
    permitted continuous rated power*) for E-bikes limited to 25
    km/h. In fact, the relevant regulation for Europe as applied in
    Germany does not specify a limit for peak power at all. The only
    relevant and somewhat enforced limit is "no motor power above a
    speed of 25 km/h". There are some sensible additional saftety
    regulations, like with regard to thermal behavior, but these are
    rarely checked or even enforced.

    My problem with these 25 km/h-E-Bikes isn't the motorization, but
    the fact that these have been made bicycles by law in 2013.
    Technically, these so called bicycles still are mopeds. The fact
    that you need a certain amount of strength to turn a throttle
    doesnrCOt make them bicycles either. But people have been led to
    believe that these mopeds are bicycles, and they believe it
    because they _want_ that to be true.

    The max power is still within very much human range, I can promise you
    keeping up with my mate on his E MTB is much easier than the fit folks who
    do the Wednesday loop and some can average 200 watts over the hr the loop
    takes them, with peaks around 1000 watts, some more some less,
    fundamentally they are much harder to hold the wheel even on the Gravel
    where I have a technical advantage.

    Though the speeds are
    generally lower, such bikes are wow thatrCOs quick on fire road climbs but >> elsewhere seem to be mostly just a MTB in my experience, even on the
    uphills, if itrCOs not just a fire road, the motor will not do much on the >> technical bits, thatrCOs where rider skill/bike geometry/suspension/tyre
    choice matter. Let alone downhill where the extra mass isnrCOt particularly >> useful.

    Powerfull enough to allow weak riders to damage former walking
    paths beyond recognition. Been there, seen that.

    By the way, why do you think people use e-MTBs off-road when the
    motor has no use there?

    Trail park sessioners absolutely gun it up the access fire roads, thatrCOs a very different thing to applying the right amount of power or rather torque
    to pick your way up a technical climb, being fit or having a motor is a advantage to a extent but itrCOs not a magic bullet, if my mate got a newer E MTB with 1500 watts max thatrCOs not going to improve his ability to ability
    to clear such climbs, the limiter for him and frankly my self is our
    technique and our willingness to take risks, as both of us a comfortably
    middle aged.
    ---

    *) Average power over a 30-minute moving window. For example ten
    minutes with 500 watt plus twenty minutes with 125 Watt.

    For comparison, according to Garmin, I could slightly exceed an
    average of 500 watts for twenty seconds, but that was over four
    years ago. Still can do - for about five seconds. For
    comparison, an average adult on a road bike needs only about 120
    watt in order to sustain a speed of 25 km/h. If you add 3.4
    times (340 per cent) the motor power to your own effort, that is
    not "pedal assistance" (Tretunterst|+tzung) anymore, as they call
    it here, but essentially a almost complete replacement of muscle
    power with motor power. The human power curve isn't linear. <https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=iK5cTU5TXn8LFtzx05CUx7>



    Roger Merriman
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Wolfgang Strobl@news51@mystrobl.de to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 14:58:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Am 9 Aug 2026 14:51:34 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am 29 Jul 2026 21:44:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds
    which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if >>> delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at
    least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts.

    This regulation has almost no teeth. Those 250 watts are the
    permitted continuous rated power*) for E-bikes limited to 25
    km/h. In fact, the relevant regulation for Europe as applied in
    Germany does not specify a limit for peak power at all. The only
    relevant and somewhat enforced limit is "no motor power above a
    speed of 25 km/h". There are some sensible additional saftety
    regulations, like with regard to thermal behavior, but these are
    rarely checked or even enforced.

    My problem with these 25 km/h-E-Bikes isn't the motorization, but
    the fact that these have been made bicycles by law in 2013.
    Technically, these so called bicycles still are mopeds. The fact
    that you need a certain amount of strength to turn a throttle
    doesnrCOt make them bicycles either. But people have been led to
    believe that these mopeds are bicycles, and they believe it
    because they _want_ that to be true.

    The max power is still within very much human range,

    "Human range" does quite some heavy lifting, here.

    An engine that gives an 10-year-old child more power and stamina
    than an adult bicycle racer has who could win the Tour de France
    isn't "within very much human range".


    I can promise you
    keeping up with my mate on his E MTB is much easier than the fit folks who
    do the Wednesday loop and some can average 200 watts over the hr the loop >takes them, with peaks around 1000 watts, some more some less,
    fundamentally they are much harder to hold the wheel even on the Gravel
    where I have a technical advantage.

    That's misleading and besides the point. Your comparison is
    about who is the better artist, not about who has more strength
    and endurance.

    What gives? IMO, you're just moving the goalpost. Of course a
    powerfull but heavy motor might be of less help, when the focus
    is on skilful and artistic cycling over challenging terrain for
    sports.

    I'm old and haven't practiced cycling as a sport in my whole
    life. But even I am able to outrun younger people on E-Bikes
    quite often. This is caused by the aforementioned limit of 25
    km/h. I still manage quite well to ride at around 25 km/h on flat
    terrain for a long time. People usually ride these E-bikes at
    22rCo23 km/h to avoid repeatedly triggering the power cut-off.

    To maintain a speed of 25 km/h on a well-asphalted, flat surface,
    I need around 90 watts. That is well below my endurance capacity.
    The excessive motor power of E-bikes has almost no effect here.
    The situation is much different when accelerating and on uphill
    sections, though. With an assist level of 340 percent, E-bike
    riders still climb a 6% incline at 22 km/h. That speed - 22 km/h
    up a 6% hill - needs 435 watts, according to a calculation with
    kreuzotter.de for an 18 kg E-MTB.

    Easy peasy: the e-bike rider makes use of the 340 per cent
    assistance available on almost every modern e-bike and tackles
    the climb using just 100 watts of their own muscle power.

    But donrCOt worry, even 90 watts is doable. Modern E-Bike offer an
    eMTB+-Mode.

    "eMTB+: Dynamic support with up to 400% of your rider power for
    maximum performance and full control on demanding trails."

    <https://help.bosch-ebike.com/#/help-center/ebw-drive-unit-performance-line-cx-r-riding-modes/asset-ast-00274>

    435 watts / 5 == 87 watts.

    A weakling like me can keep going at 87 watts for almost as long
    as I like. I did a eight hour ride, two years ago, averaging 95
    watts. Yesterday I did a ride five hour ride, 88 km, 918 meter
    cumulative altitude gain, 89 watts on average.

    But 435 watts? Garmin tells me that I could do that for 30
    seconds, once, four years ago. I'm now down to about 10 seconds,
    over the last 12 months. I managed to make it up Mont Ventoux,
    anyway. :-)

    How long are you able to sustain 250 watts? For me, its about 1-2
    minutes. Those E-bikes do that as long as you like.

    What I am talking about is how most people I meet in the city or
    on my tours throughout the local region actually ride their
    E-Bikes. They do it just like they did it before on real bicycles
    - mostly on flat ground and slowly. Perhaps a little bit faster
    and a bit longer than they could do it before - that motor
    doesn't get exhausted, so why not? The main difference is that
    they don't use their muscles like the had to do, before the
    switch to a motorized vehicle. Virtually all the beneficial
    effects of strenuous exercise are eliminated.

    Riding a bicycle at these slow speeds on flat ground actually
    needs _less_ power than the same amount of walking - that's why
    bicycles exist! E-Bikes eliminate even that tiny amount. Of
    course, people buy E-Bikes to avoid the occasional effort
    required when accelerating or on ascents.
    --
    Thank you for observing all safety precautions
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From AMuzi@am@yellowjersey.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 08:18:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 8/12/2026 7:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
    Am 9 Aug 2026 14:51:34 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am 29 Jul 2026 21:44:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds
    which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if >>>> delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at >>>> least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts.

    This regulation has almost no teeth. Those 250 watts are the
    permitted continuous rated power*) for E-bikes limited to 25
    km/h. In fact, the relevant regulation for Europe as applied in
    Germany does not specify a limit for peak power at all. The only
    relevant and somewhat enforced limit is "no motor power above a
    speed of 25 km/h". There are some sensible additional saftety
    regulations, like with regard to thermal behavior, but these are
    rarely checked or even enforced.

    My problem with these 25 km/h-E-Bikes isn't the motorization, but
    the fact that these have been made bicycles by law in 2013.
    Technically, these so called bicycles still are mopeds. The fact
    that you need a certain amount of strength to turn a throttle
    doesnrCOt make them bicycles either. But people have been led to
    believe that these mopeds are bicycles, and they believe it
    because they _want_ that to be true.

    The max power is still within very much human range,

    "Human range" does quite some heavy lifting, here.

    An engine that gives an 10-year-old child more power and stamina
    than an adult bicycle racer has who could win the Tour de France
    isn't "within very much human range".


    I can promise you
    keeping up with my mate on his E MTB is much easier than the fit folks who >> do the Wednesday loop and some can average 200 watts over the hr the loop
    takes them, with peaks around 1000 watts, some more some less,
    fundamentally they are much harder to hold the wheel even on the Gravel
    where I have a technical advantage.

    That's misleading and besides the point. Your comparison is
    about who is the better artist, not about who has more strength
    and endurance.

    What gives? IMO, you're just moving the goalpost. Of course a
    powerfull but heavy motor might be of less help, when the focus
    is on skilful and artistic cycling over challenging terrain for
    sports.

    I'm old and haven't practiced cycling as a sport in my whole
    life. But even I am able to outrun younger people on E-Bikes
    quite often. This is caused by the aforementioned limit of 25
    km/h. I still manage quite well to ride at around 25 km/h on flat
    terrain for a long time. People usually ride these E-bikes at
    22rCo23 km/h to avoid repeatedly triggering the power cut-off.

    To maintain a speed of 25 km/h on a well-asphalted, flat surface,
    I need around 90 watts. That is well below my endurance capacity.
    The excessive motor power of E-bikes has almost no effect here.
    The situation is much different when accelerating and on uphill
    sections, though. With an assist level of 340 percent, E-bike
    riders still climb a 6% incline at 22 km/h. That speed - 22 km/h
    up a 6% hill - needs 435 watts, according to a calculation with
    kreuzotter.de for an 18 kg E-MTB.

    Easy peasy: the e-bike rider makes use of the 340 per cent
    assistance available on almost every modern e-bike and tackles
    the climb using just 100 watts of their own muscle power.

    But donrCOt worry, even 90 watts is doable. Modern E-Bike offer an eMTB+-Mode.

    "eMTB+: Dynamic support with up to 400% of your rider power for
    maximum performance and full control on demanding trails."

    <https://help.bosch-ebike.com/#/help-center/ebw-drive-unit-performance-line-cx-r-riding-modes/asset-ast-00274>

    435 watts / 5 == 87 watts.

    A weakling like me can keep going at 87 watts for almost as long
    as I like. I did a eight hour ride, two years ago, averaging 95
    watts. Yesterday I did a ride five hour ride, 88 km, 918 meter
    cumulative altitude gain, 89 watts on average.

    But 435 watts? Garmin tells me that I could do that for 30
    seconds, once, four years ago. I'm now down to about 10 seconds,
    over the last 12 months. I managed to make it up Mont Ventoux,
    anyway. :-)

    How long are you able to sustain 250 watts? For me, its about 1-2
    minutes. Those E-bikes do that as long as you like.

    What I am talking about is how most people I meet in the city or
    on my tours throughout the local region actually ride their
    E-Bikes. They do it just like they did it before on real bicycles
    - mostly on flat ground and slowly. Perhaps a little bit faster
    and a bit longer than they could do it before - that motor
    doesn't get exhausted, so why not? The main difference is that
    they don't use their muscles like the had to do, before the
    switch to a motorized vehicle. Virtually all the beneficial
    effects of strenuous exercise are eliminated.

    Riding a bicycle at these slow speeds on flat ground actually
    needs _less_ power than the same amount of walking - that's why
    bicycles exist! E-Bikes eliminate even that tiny amount. Of
    course, people buy E-Bikes to avoid the occasional effort
    required when accelerating or on ascents.




    +1 !
    Excellent overview of the problems we face.
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    am@yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 14:48:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am 9 Aug 2026 14:51:34 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    Wolfgang Strobl <news51@mystrobl.de> wrote:
    Am 29 Jul 2026 21:44:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
    <roger@sarlet.com>:

    AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
    17 year old rider, 1500 watts.

    https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2026/07/29/e-moto-rider-killed-on-centre-street-in-heart-of-civic-manhattan

    ThatrCOs probably more the speed and well that such bikes are de facto mopeds
    which tend to get ridden poorly be that due to riders inexperienced or if >>>> delivery attempting to deliver more items.

    I believe some of the newer E MTB can hit such power at peak, though at >>>> least in Europe it needs to average out to 250 watts.

    This regulation has almost no teeth. Those 250 watts are the
    permitted continuous rated power*) for E-bikes limited to 25
    km/h. In fact, the relevant regulation for Europe as applied in
    Germany does not specify a limit for peak power at all. The only
    relevant and somewhat enforced limit is "no motor power above a
    speed of 25 km/h". There are some sensible additional saftety
    regulations, like with regard to thermal behavior, but these are
    rarely checked or even enforced.

    My problem with these 25 km/h-E-Bikes isn't the motorization, but
    the fact that these have been made bicycles by law in 2013.
    Technically, these so called bicycles still are mopeds. The fact
    that you need a certain amount of strength to turn a throttle
    doesnrCOt make them bicycles either. But people have been led to
    believe that these mopeds are bicycles, and they believe it
    because they _want_ that to be true.

    The max power is still within very much human range,

    "Human range" does quite some heavy lifting, here.

    An engine that gives an 10-year-old child more power and stamina
    than an adult bicycle racer has who could win the Tour de France
    isn't "within very much human range".


    Pog and others are very much producing greater power, than a E bike,which
    one needs to be a teenager to use legally.

    Nor will anything legal or to be honest illegal have the range to keep up,
    ie would need to charge or at very least stop to swap batteries out,
    multiple times.

    I can promise you
    keeping up with my mate on his E MTB is much easier than the fit folks who >> do the Wednesday loop and some can average 200 watts over the hr the loop
    takes them, with peaks around 1000 watts, some more some less,
    fundamentally they are much harder to hold the wheel even on the Gravel
    where I have a technical advantage.

    That's misleading and besides the point. Your comparison is
    about who is the better artist, not about who has more strength
    and endurance.

    What gives? IMO, you're just moving the goalpost. Of course a
    powerfull but heavy motor might be of less help, when the focus
    is on skilful and artistic cycling over challenging terrain for
    sports.

    No IrCOm really not, unlike you I do ride with others on, E bikes and off
    road so I am well aware that these arenrCOt motorcycles, are they faster on fire roads climbs? Yes but certainly for MTBers such things are dull, and
    where one chats and just spins up the hill.

    The more technical it gets the less power matters, bar for example stuff
    like slab crawling and similar, and the weight does make them more of
    handful on techy descents as you have to manoeuvre that weight, so are
    likely to be slower in that regard.

    Likewise I see them on the commute, be that legal or not most arenrCOt road bike fast, the E motos look and sound faster as they have the fat bike
    tyres which growl but I tend to pass them at low 20rCOs so 30Kph, are absolutely stuff that is ridden faster but thatrCOs really advertising themselves to the police, who might otherwise turn a blind eye.

    I'm old and haven't practiced cycling as a sport in my whole
    life. But even I am able to outrun younger people on E-Bikes
    quite often. This is caused by the aforementioned limit of 25
    km/h. I still manage quite well to ride at around 25 km/h on flat
    terrain for a long time. People usually ride these E-bikes at
    22rCo23 km/h to avoid repeatedly triggering the power cut-off.

    To maintain a speed of 25 km/h on a well-asphalted, flat surface,
    I need around 90 watts. That is well below my endurance capacity.
    The excessive motor power of E-bikes has almost no effect here.
    The situation is much different when accelerating and on uphill
    sections, though. With an assist level of 340 percent, E-bike
    riders still climb a 6% incline at 22 km/h. That speed - 22 km/h
    up a 6% hill - needs 435 watts, according to a calculation with
    kreuzotter.de for an 18 kg E-MTB.

    Easy peasy: the e-bike rider makes use of the 340 per cent
    assistance available on almost every modern e-bike and tackles
    the climb using just 100 watts of their own muscle power.

    But donrCOt worry, even 90 watts is doable. Modern E-Bike offer an eMTB+-Mode.

    "eMTB+: Dynamic support with up to 400% of your rider power for
    maximum performance and full control on demanding trails."

    <https://help.bosch-ebike.com/#/help-center/ebw-drive-unit-performance-line-cx-r-riding-modes/asset-ast-00274>

    435 watts / 5 == 87 watts.

    A weakling like me can keep going at 87 watts for almost as long
    as I like. I did a eight hour ride, two years ago, averaging 95
    watts. Yesterday I did a ride five hour ride, 88 km, 918 meter
    cumulative altitude gain, 89 watts on average.

    But 435 watts? Garmin tells me that I could do that for 30
    seconds, once, four years ago. I'm now down to about 10 seconds,
    over the last 12 months. I managed to make it up Mont Ventoux,
    anyway. :-)

    How long are you able to sustain 250 watts? For me, its about 1-2
    minutes. Those E-bikes do that as long as you like.

    What I am talking about is how most people I meet in the city or
    on my tours throughout the local region actually ride their
    E-Bikes. They do it just like they did it before on real bicycles
    - mostly on flat ground and slowly. Perhaps a little bit faster
    and a bit longer than they could do it before - that motor
    doesn't get exhausted, so why not? The main difference is that
    they don't use their muscles like the had to do, before the
    switch to a motorized vehicle. Virtually all the beneficial
    effects of strenuous exercise are eliminated.

    They will loose the top end potentially yes, assuming they did ride that
    hard in the first place, but to the best of my knowledge that folks are
    still moving and maintaining activity and getting some work out, and potentially riding more hence at population level its possibly a net gain.

    Riding a bicycle at these slow speeds on flat ground actually
    needs _less_ power than the same amount of walking - that's why
    bicycles exist! E-Bikes eliminate even that tiny amount. Of
    course, people buy E-Bikes to avoid the occasional effort
    required when accelerating or on ascents.


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can
    hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the
    lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    had one young chap try any keep up with the roadie few months back, but obviously the Dockless hire bikes are heavy and the drive is agricultural
    so bit like hitting a wall, and thus he lasted a few seconds attempting to
    keep up and impress his mates!

    Roger Merriman


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Catrike Ryder@Soloman@old.bikers.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 13:39:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 12 Aug 2026 14:48:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can
    hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or >stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the >lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    That's not true on the bike paths I ride. I'm usually at 11 or 12 mph
    and I have ebikes pass me and disappear off into the distance. The
    ebike speed limit here is 20 mph and I suspect the pedal assist people
    are riding just below that so as not to inadvertantly kick the power
    off. Most of the riders are sitting very upright and cranking at 40/50
    rpm, if peddling at all. Most appear to be younger than me.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 20:47:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 14:48:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can
    hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or >> stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the
    lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    That's not true on the bike paths I ride. I'm usually at 11 or 12 mph
    and I have ebikes pass me and disappear off into the distance. The
    ebike speed limit here is 20 mph and I suspect the pedal assist people
    are riding just below that so as not to inadvertantly kick the power
    off. Most of the riders are sitting very upright and cranking at 40/50
    rpm, if peddling at all. Most appear to be younger than me.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    ThatrCOs because the US has legal E bikes up to 28mph with a throttle as
    well, if thatrCOs not a moped I donrCOt know what it is! And thatrCOs just the legal stuff!

    Hence various states are apparently clamping down now? And apparently in
    New York at least they are trying to get the online market places who absolutely know this stuff isnrCOt legal, to remove them, which frankly while itrCOs as much as issue in UK is what the UK should be doing as enforcement isnrCOt really particularly effective.

    Need a lot of traffic cops and for them to know what they are doing, even
    in the UK which has really simple laws ie no throttle above 4 mph so
    throttle 99% time means not legal and for the motor to cut out at 15 mph. Whereas US has 3 or more different classes throttles are allowed, I donrCOt fancy a US cops chances of working out what is and isnrCOt legal with that system!

    Roger Merriman

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Catrike Ryder@Soloman@old.bikers.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Wed Aug 12 18:56:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 12 Aug 2026 20:47:42 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 14:48:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can >>> hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or >>> stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the
    lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    That's not true on the bike paths I ride. I'm usually at 11 or 12 mph
    and I have ebikes pass me and disappear off into the distance. The
    ebike speed limit here is 20 mph and I suspect the pedal assist people
    are riding just below that so as not to inadvertantly kick the power
    off. Most of the riders are sitting very upright and cranking at 40/50
    rpm, if peddling at all. Most appear to be younger than me.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    ThatAs because the US has legal E bikes up to 28mph with a throttle as
    well, if thatAs not a moped I donAt know what it is! And thatAs just the >legal stuff!

    The class 3 (28 MPH) Ebikes are not supposed to have a throttle and
    are supposed to be assist only, however it's not easy to tell them
    apart from, class 1 and 2. I've been passed by bikes that I'm pretty
    sure were exeeding 20 mph with no pedaling.

    Hence various states are apparently clamping down now? And apparently in
    New York at least they are trying to get the online market places who >absolutely know this stuff isnAt legal, to remove them, which frankly while >itAs as much as issue in UK is what the UK should be doing as enforcement >isnAt really particularly effective.

    Need a lot of traffic cops and for them to know what they are doing, even
    in the UK which has really simple laws ie no throttle above 4 mph so
    throttle 99% time means not legal and for the motor to cut out at 15 mph. >Whereas US has 3 or more different classes throttles are allowed, I donAt >fancy a US cops chances of working out what is and isnAt legal with that >system!

    Roger Merriman

    I wish they'd start clamping down here.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Merriman@roger@sarlet.com to rec.bicycles.tech on Thu Aug 13 11:42:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 20:47:42 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 14:48:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can >>>> hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or
    stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the >>>> lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    That's not true on the bike paths I ride. I'm usually at 11 or 12 mph
    and I have ebikes pass me and disappear off into the distance. The
    ebike speed limit here is 20 mph and I suspect the pedal assist people
    are riding just below that so as not to inadvertantly kick the power
    off. Most of the riders are sitting very upright and cranking at 40/50
    rpm, if peddling at all. Most appear to be younger than me.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    That-As because the US has legal E bikes up to 28mph with a throttle as
    well, if that-As not a moped I don-At know what it is! And that-As just the >> legal stuff!

    The class 3 (28 MPH) Ebikes are not supposed to have a throttle and
    are supposed to be assist only, however it's not easy to tell them
    apart from, class 1 and 2. I've been passed by bikes that I'm pretty
    sure were exeeding 20 mph with no pedaling.

    IrCOd not clicked that class 2 have a throttle but not class 3, makes sense though IrCOd still argue that class 2/3 still are mopeds.

    I believe that changing the class in some cases can be done via an app, and probably left to the user to regulate.

    Hence the pushback by various states though thats again going to be
    difficult to enforce, really need to be going after the sellers.

    Hence various states are apparently clamping down now? And apparently in
    New York at least they are trying to get the online market places who
    absolutely know this stuff isn-At legal, to remove them, which frankly while >> it-As as much as issue in UK is what the UK should be doing as enforcement >> isn-At really particularly effective.

    Need a lot of traffic cops and for them to know what they are doing, even
    in the UK which has really simple laws ie no throttle above 4 mph so
    throttle 99% time means not legal and for the motor to cut out at 15 mph.
    Whereas US has 3 or more different classes throttles are allowed, I don-At >> fancy a US cops chances of working out what is and isn-At legal with that
    system!

    Roger Merriman

    I wish they'd start clamping down here.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    Roger Merriman

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Catrike Ryder@Soloman@old.bikers.org to rec.bicycles.tech on Thu Aug 13 11:30:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.bicycles.tech

    On 13 Aug 2026 11:42:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 20:47:42 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

    Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
    On 12 Aug 2026 14:48:06 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:


    In my experience legal e-bikes tend to average 11mph or so, yes they can >>>>> hit 15mph but most hold a bit below it, but invariably one needs to slow or
    stop if briefly, nor do they have motorbike acceleration away from the >>>>> lights, the cutoff is a bit clunky.

    That's not true on the bike paths I ride. I'm usually at 11 or 12 mph
    and I have ebikes pass me and disappear off into the distance. The
    ebike speed limit here is 20 mph and I suspect the pedal assist people >>>> are riding just below that so as not to inadvertantly kick the power
    off. Most of the riders are sitting very upright and cranking at 40/50 >>>> rpm, if peddling at all. Most appear to be younger than me.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    That?s because the US has legal E bikes up to 28mph with a throttle as
    well, if that?s not a moped I don?t know what it is! And that?s just the >>> legal stuff!

    The class 3 (28 MPH) Ebikes are not supposed to have a throttle and
    are supposed to be assist only, however it's not easy to tell them
    apart from, class 1 and 2. I've been passed by bikes that I'm pretty
    sure were exeeding 20 mph with no pedaling.

    IAd not clicked that class 2 have a throttle but not class 3, makes sense >though IAd still argue that class 2/3 still are mopeds.

    I believe that changing the class in some cases can be done via an app, and >probably left to the user to regulate.

    I think some can be changed by simply switching some wires. I could
    tolerate the pedal assist up to 15 MH, but not 20 or 28 MPH, and I
    think the no-pedal throttle Ebikes should only be for handicapped,
    like the handicap parking spaces here in the states. Although I see
    the handicap parking spaces abused, too.

    Hence the pushback by various states though thats again going to be
    difficult to enforce, really need to be going after the sellers.

    Hence various states are apparently clamping down now? And apparently in >>> New York at least they are trying to get the online market places who
    absolutely know this stuff isn?t legal, to remove them, which frankly while >>> it?s as much as issue in UK is what the UK should be doing as enforcement >>> isn?t really particularly effective.

    Need a lot of traffic cops and for them to know what they are doing, even >>> in the UK which has really simple laws ie no throttle above 4 mph so
    throttle 99% time means not legal and for the motor to cut out at 15 mph. >>> Whereas US has 3 or more different classes throttles are allowed, I don?t >>> fancy a US cops chances of working out what is and isn?t legal with that >>> system!

    Roger Merriman

    I wish they'd start clamping down here.

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman


    Roger Merriman

    --
    C'est bon
    Soloman
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2