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Interview Notes: In this exclusive full-length interview with The EconomistrCOs editor-in-chief Zanny Minton Beddoes, recorded at TeslarCOs Texas Gigafactory, Elon Musk sits down for his first extended
conversation since SpaceXrCOs blockbuster IPO. The wide-ranging discussion explores the timeline for AI surpassing human intelligence, ChinarCOs
rapid advances in technology, the future of work in an age of abundance, StarlinkrCOs role in Ukraine, and MuskrCOs reflections on getting rCLa little too involvedrCY in politics. Throughout, Musk offers his
characteristically bold predictions about the years ahead while
addressing questions about concentrated power, EuroperCOs challenges, and
what people most often get wrong about him.

Read the full transcript of Elon MuskrCOs interview below (recorded on
July 20, 2026):

Kaia Gerber & Graham Campbell's first impressions

Introduction
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Elon Musk, thank you so much for joining me on The Insider. Thank you for having us here at Tesla Giga. It is really hard
to introduce you without using superlatives. I mean, you are doing, I
think, more to build the future than literally anybody alive right now.

Elon Musk: IrCOm doing a lot of building in general.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre doing a lot of building.

Elon Musk: Instinctive builder, I suppose. I just like building things.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You are, but yourCOre buildingrCo

Elon Musk: I mean, run around building things all day long.

The World in 10 Years: A Vision of Abundance
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You run around building a lot of things. You
pioneered electric vehicles. You revolutionized space travel. YourCOve got
a cutting-edge AI model now, humanoid robots. Can we start this
conversation by you putting all of this together? Yeah. Tell me what the worldrCOs going to be like in, letrCOs say, 10 years if you succeed.

Elon Musk: 10 years. So werCOre talking 2036.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah. Hopefully werCOll both be around.


Elon Musk: Hopefully.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yes, we can.

Elon Musk: We can probablyrCo most likely we will be. ItrCOs hard to imagine the future where thererCOs not an overwhelming amount of artificial intelligence, meaning like in 10 years, I would expect artificial
intelligence to be far greater than the sum of human intelligence, like
far greater. In fact, I think AI may exceed the sum of human
intelligence in about, in around 5 years.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: In 5 years?

Elon Musk: Roughly 5 years is my guess. So there really wonrCOt be
anything that AI canrCOt do better than humans, apart from being human, perhaps.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: At a more prosaic level, what will life be like?

Elon Musk: The most likely outcome is an age of amazing abundance where
anyone can have anything they can think of. This may sound preposterous,
but well, here we are in 2026. LetrCOs see where we stand in 2036. Now, of course, there are things that could derail this, like a massive global thermonuclear war or something like that. But assuming that thererCOs not World War III, I think werCOre headed for an age of amazing abundance. So
this is, I guess, a message of optimism and excitement about the future.

How Will the Companies Make Money?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: So werCOll talk about the abundance in a second, but just on a very prosaic matter, how are your companies going to be making money? Because when yourCo in the SpaceX IPO prospectus, it looked as
though the overwhelming amount of the revenue would be coming from AI,
from Grok really. It wonrCOt be transporting things to space as SpaceX is
now doing. What will your companies be doing in 10 years? And how will
they make money?

Elon Musk: Well, you can really think of the economy as digital and
physical intelligence. So what we have right now advancing very rapidly
is digital intelligence, obviously, with AI that seems, almost with
every passing week, there are more AI breakthroughs, it can do something amazing that it couldnrCOt do before. But itrCOs still somewhat confined to the digital realm. It doesnrCOt have end effectors. You need the end
effectors in the form of humanoid robotics. You need basically lots of
bots, in a nutshell. You need lots of bots.

And then you can go from intelligence manifesting itself only digitally
to shaping atoms. And you say, what is an economy? An economy is the production of goods and provision of services. And if you have vast
numbers of robots with vast amounts of digital intelligence, you have a
sort of a quasi-infinite economy. So the future is going to be very,
very different from the past. ThererCOs no analogy or metaphor that I
think illustrates the magnitude of change that werCOre going to experience here.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I understand that, and IrCOm also trying to kind of figure out what that world will look like, but in some way you haverCo

Elon Musk: ItrCOs going to be pretty incredible.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, well, werCOll also dorCo there are some risks too.

Elon Musk: WerCOll come to those.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But just on how then you make money, because in
the end people are buying your shares because they expect you to make money.

Elon Musk: IrCOll make another prediction. Money wonrCOt matter in 2036.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm not sure that the people who bought your
shares think that money wonrCOt matter in 2036.

Elon Musk: Well, what do you want money for? You want money for goods
and services, right? You want money for obviously food, housing,
transport, entertainment. Well, if that is so abundant that the robots
and AI are providing more goods and services than any human could
possibly consume, what do you need money for in that case?


Zanny Minton Beddoes: But yourCOre creating these robots.

Elon Musk: I guess every now and then yourCOll need money, sure.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you selling these robots? Are you selling
humanoid robots? Or are you producing goods and services with the
humanoid robots that you control?

I give you the LevirCOs straps.
Elon Musk: It would be an exercise in vanity for me to think that I
would be controlling a super genius AI that is vastly smarter than me. I
think what we can and should try to do is to make sure that the AI has
good values, that it cares about humanity, and that it wants us to be
happy and prosper. I think it probably will be. What my biological
neural net tells me is that the most important thing for AI safety is to
be maximally truth-seeking and curious. If thatrCOs the case, I think it
will foster humanity.

Will Humans Still Be in Control?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: So letrCOs unpack that. YourCOre sure that humans will no longer be in control in 10 yearsrCO time?

Elon Musk: I think it is unlikely. In the same way that if the
difference in intelligence between AI and humans is vastly greater than
the difference in intelligence between AI and chimpanzees, itrCOs hard to imagine that the chimpanzees would be in charge.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm really excited by this.

Elon Musk: And we are essentially an evolved form of chimpanzee. So it wasnrCOt that long ago that we were swinging through the trees eating
bananas in the jungle. And we still eat bananas, by the way. We do. And thererCOs still bananas today.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Sometimes swing through trees as well.

Elon Musk: Yes, sometimes swing through trees. ItrCOs kind of fun. ItrCOs
sort of reminiscent of the past. For old timerCOs sake, swing through the trees once in a while. Probably there should be more swinging through
trees. I bet itrCOs way more fun than people think.

From Fear to Acceptance: ElonrCOs Changing Views on AI Risk
Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm with you on that. IrCOm definitely with you on swinging through trees. I love swinging through trees. But IrCOm really
struck listening to you say this now because IrCOve been listening to a
bunch of things that yourCOve said over the years. And 10 years ago, you
were on a podcast. I think it was with Neil deGrasse Tyson. And you said
that the thing that terrified you most was rapid recursive
self-improvement in AIs.

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And that you said, and it really struck with me,
you said that we will just be the pet Labradors at the best. Well, now
you seerCo

Elon Musk: Labradors are pretty happy creatures.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs my experience. But in 2023, you asked for a slowdown in AI because you were worried about it.

Elon Musk: Well, I signed on to, as one of many, like 500 people. I was
just one of many signatories on that thing.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think even last year you said, I think,
where was it, Ted CruzrCOs podcast, you said there was a 10 to 20% chance
of killer robots wiping out humanity.

Elon Musk: Yeah.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So you sounded worried then. Now you seem very
relaxed about it. Have you changed your view?

Elon Musk: I still think thererCOs risk associated with AI and robots.
ItrCOs not zero. I guess IrCOve come to my sort of philosophical conclusion
is to look on the bright side. I canrCOt see any way to really stop this incredible momentum of AI and robots. And at times I sort of think,
well, perhaps even if there was a stop button, we probably shouldnrCOt
press it because the most likely outcome is incredible abundance for all.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs what I thought, actually. It struck me that
now you seem to have decided itrCOs inevitable. LetrCOs hope for the best
and go for the ride.

Elon Musk: Yes, pretty much. LetrCOs enjoy the ride, is I think my
philosophy at this point. Because honestly, there seems to be just an inexorable progress here in AI and in robots that even if I wanted to
stop it, I couldnrCOt.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you think thererCOs still a 10 to 20% chance that killer robots mean the end of humanity? ThatrCOs a high P-doom, as they say.


Elon Musk: Well, in the long run, werCOre all dead, of course. So
according to the standard model of physics, the end of the universe is a
long, boring, sort of thin gray soup of gradual cooling. Meaning thatrCOs
sort of the heat death of the universe, itrCOs called. So now, if the heat death of the universe is in fact the outcome for our reality, then it
really is all about the journey, because the destination is terrible.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: 10 years is not veryrCo yeah, I get that, but that
could be a long way. A very long way.

Elon Musk: Very, very long way.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: If itrCOs 10 to 20% in 10 years, would you go into
one of your rockets if you thought there was a 10 to 20% chance of it
blowing up and killing you?

Elon Musk: Yes, but letrCOs say thererCOsrCo you canrCOt do anything about it. I
guess the only thing we can try to do is minimize the probability of the
bad outcome. But trying to stop the intelligence in robotsrCo I mean, for
the longest time, I declined to participate in AI, or created OpenAI as essentially a counterweight to Google because at the time they had more
or less a monopoly on AI. And then Anthropic spun out of OpenAI. And if anything, it seems like my actions have really accelerated AI. I wasnrCOt really aiming to accelerate AI, but in creating OpenAI and then having Anthropic spin out of that, and now currently AnthropicrCOs the leader in
AI, these actions have actually resulted in knock-on effects that
accelerated AI, which wasnrCOt really my intention. So it just seems like
all roads lead to acceleration of AI. So then IrCOm like, okay, well, you
can just sort of be sad about it or join the club, I suppose.


Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, yourCOve certainly joined the club. Yeah,
yourCOve definitely joined the club.

Elon Musk: If you canrCOt beat them, join them, you know.

Minimizing AI Risks: The Case for Industry Cooperation
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, yourCOve clearly done that and very
successfully. But what about trying to minimize the risks? A number of
the other leaders of model makers have been pushing for different ways
to try and minimize the risks. Just last week, Demis Hassabis came out
with a proposal for a private-public regulator. I think you said it was
a good starting point for discussions, I think. Do you think you guys
should be working more actively to get something in place to control the risks, or do you think thatrCOs impossible too?


Elon Musk: My recommendation to Demis, because I talked to him for a few
hours before he published his piece, was that the most immediate thing
that we could do is to have the leading AI companies at least just meet
or have some sort of call once every few weeks and just discuss any
safety and security issues. And that before a breakthrough, sort of a
new frontier model is released, something that is far more intelligent
than anything that already exists, that thererCOs an opportunity for the various competing AI companies to test that model for any harmful
effects and to be able to recommend pausing to address some of these
security issues. I think thatrCOs sort of the easy, quick thing that we
can do. And it can evolve to more than that over time. But I think that
would be a smart move.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why havenrCOt you done that yet? I mean, thererCOs like 5 of you, right? I mean, everyone knows the first name, Dario,
Demis, Sam. I mean, you donrCOt all like each other very much.

Elon Musk: Yeah.

AI Safety, China, and Industry Cooperation

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But yourCOre not allrCo I mean, yourCOre also all competing, right? You all want to be first.

Elon Musk: Yes. But thatrCOs where I think the competitors can keep each
other honest. If someone in the government doesnrCOt have a deep technical understanding and isnrCOt driving the frontier of AI, itrCOs quite difficult for them to know whether something should be released or not. However,
the competitors, I think, if given sort of a week or two to review a new model, can highlight issues and have an incentive to keeprCo all the competitors have an incentive to keep the others honest.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you have enough trust between you to do that? I
mean, you donrCOt much like each other. WouldnrCOt Sam Altman just think yourCOre going to nick all his ideas if you did that?

Elon Musk: Well, if werCOre just talking about a week, honestly, I think
as little as a week is all that would be needed for private testing.
ItrCOs not to hand over the AI. ItrCOs just to test it.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Have you proposed this?

Elon Musk: Yeah, just to test it via an API or something. I think that
would probably be a good thing to do.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Have you proposed it? I mean, you could presumably organize that.

Elon Musk: ThatrCOs what I suggested to Demis. And I guess IrCOll talk to Dario about it too. ThererCOs also, of course, some very competent Chinese
AI companies. There are several that are very good. The new Kimi model.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Kimi K3, yeah, the one that came out last week rCo itrCOs almost as good as Grok, right? So itrCOsrCo

Elon Musk: Well, I think realistically Grok is still clearly the
smartest model. I think anyone realistically would say that thatrCOs still
the case. But the Kimi model is getting quite close to Grok. Now,
Anthropic had Opus from which Grok is derived. I think they had that
ready in February. So theyrCOve got rCo they call it, IrCOm not sure what they call it, but Opus 2 or Grok 6 or something, something much better than
what they had in February. They almost certainly have rCo not almost certainly, they certainly have right now. And I think they could release
it at any time.

ChinarCOs AI Ambitions and the Geopolitical Stakes
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Just before we get on to releasing, how do you
think about the Chinese models and the geopolitics of it? Are you
worried about the Chinese catching up and getting ahead?

Elon Musk: Given that the Chinese AI companies are doing as well as they
are with a relatively small amount of compute, it seems as though if
they had a lot of compute, thererCOs a good chance that they would be the leaders. And at some point, they probably will have a lot of compute.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So they will, ergo, they will be the leaders.


Elon Musk: ThererCOs a good chance that they are the leaders at some
point. You can think of it like this rCo the constraints on AI are
essentially electricity and AI chips. And then for physical AI, the
robots. ChinarCOs also got some very good robot companies. In fact, they
have these robot sporting events. I donrCOt know if yourCOve seen some of them.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yes, I have. I saw them last time I was in
Beijing. I saw the robots.

Elon Musk: Well, and then they have the sort of boxing match or fighting
match with the robots, which is quite entertaining. I saw some video of
a robot that got its head knocked off and kept fighting even with its
head knocked off. It looked pretty funny.

But China is very strong on robots, very strong on digital AI. And if
you look at electricity production rCo AI is a function of whatever the limiting factor is, whether itrCOs chips or electricity. China has far
more electricity than the United States. In fact, China has more
electricity than the United States, Europe, and India combined already,
and is heading to rCo my guess is China gets to 4 times the electricity production of the US, which is roughly proportionate to the population.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: What should the US government do about this? I
mean, presumably it is a little alarming if you have an authoritarian
regime far ahead in the most powerful technology. And clearly what the
US governmentrCOs been trying to do is, with the export controls and so
forth, keep China back. Do you think they should ban the use of Kimi K3,
for example?


Elon Musk: Well, the US government canrCOt rCo they can pass some law that prevents US companies from using Chinese models, but they canrCOt stop the rest of the world from using them. So itrCOs not like the US government
has authority over China or the rest of the world.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you think they should stop US companies from
using them? ThererCOs talk of that right now, right?

Elon Musk: I donrCOt think that helps. That wonrCOt stop China from being
the leader in AI. Really, for digital intelligence, it comes down to how
much AI compute do you have rCo how many chips do you have and how much
power do you have, how much electricity do you have. The constraint
right now, I think, is actually slightly more on power and cooling than
it is on AI chips, because the power demands of the AI chips are very,
very high. WerCOll talk about water demands, but really the water usage of
AI is negligible, almost nothing. But the electrical demand is very high.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs why yourCOre thinking of orbital data
centers, presumably.

Elon Musk: Yes, the constraint for any AI chips not being turned on
outside of China is electricity, power and cooling, and the electrical equipment and everything. The rate at which AI chips are being made
exceeds the rate at which new electricity is coming online.


Zanny Minton Beddoes: In China?

Elon Musk: Outside of China.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Outside China, I see.

Elon Musk: Yeah. And since the US has banned the export of the latest AI
chips to China, China is somewhat chip-starved.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But they are becoming much more efficient at using
the chips that they have. And one of the striking things of Kimi K3,
right, is how efficiently theyrCo


Elon Musk: And China is also, I think, closer than most people realize
to solving the lithography problem, which would enable them to make AI
chips at very large volumes. So the current constraint is electricity
outside of China. In China, the constraint is chips. Once we address the
power constraint with AI data centers in space, then the constraint will
once again be chips outside of China.

ALSO READ: Facebook CEO Mark ZuckerbergrCOs Keynote at F8 2017 Conference (Full Transcript)
A Framework for Global AI Governance
Zanny Minton Beddoes: That suggests to me that you need China and the
US, if yourCOre going to have some overall safety constraints, to work together. I mean, you suggested the 5 model makers here working together?

Elon Musk: Probably it should include the Chinese companies that are
doing frontier AI models too.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And do you think governments need to be involved?

Elon Musk: My recommendation would be that if some of the leading
companies in AI say that a new model is very dangerous, then they should inform the government. And if a new model is very dangerous and the
company producing that model is not taking steps to address the danger,
then they should alert the government to take action to limit the
release of that model. And that could be action by the Chinese
government or action by the US government. ItrCOs really just the US government and the Chinese government that have the power to take action
here.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I guess people would be worried about relying
on a group of model builders to decide whether to do this. I mean, if
you look at what the US government has done with Opus, they stepped in
because they were worried about the cybersecurity risks, and they
stepped in using the threat of export controls to prevent the widespread release of this model. I find it hard to see how governments will not
want to keep that power rCo that they ultimately decide whether a model
gets released.

Elon Musk: Well, I think they should have that power, but it wasnrCOt as though someone in the government figured out that Opus had some scary cybersecurity risks. It was Amazon. Amazon highlighted this and Amazon
called the White House.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So yourCOd have a system where the model makers
would check each otherrCOs work. If there was something that worried them, yourCOd tell the government. The government would then think, okayrCo

Elon Musk: If there was something worrisome and that company was not
doing anything to address that risk, then that would be the moment for government to step in and take action, which is literally what just
occurred with Amazon.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: How soon does all this have to happen?

Elon Musk: I think itrCOd be good to do that immediately, really. Yeah.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs what people keep telling me. We have to get some kind of system in place in the next 6 months because of the pace at
which the models are improving.

Elon Musk: Yeah. 6 months is a long time.


Zanny Minton Beddoes: So you think shorter than that?

Elon Musk: Well, there are so many AI breakthrough announcements,
sometimes multiple per day. I mean, how many were there last week?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: A lot.

Elon Musk: I lost track.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, a lot. So you basically need to get together
and get this set up kind of now, it sounds like yourCOre telling me.


Elon Musk: Yeah, I would recommend that we at least have some sort of
informal weekly or biweekly call, and that thererCOs maybe a week or 2
weeks of early access by competitors. This is why I think the incentives
work rCo competing companies are likely to understand if something is a security risk, and theyrCOre not going to be shy about highlighting that
their competitorsrCO models should be delayed in release. I think the incentive structure does work quite well there.

This is sort of how it works with the Motion Picture Association. ItrCOs
an industry group that decides how movies should be rated, whether
theyrCOre appropriate for young children or not. And that seems to have
worked quite well. And then you really just have to ask the government
to intervene if a company is doing something very dangerous and refuses
to take action to reduce the danger.

Personal Rivalries and the Greater Good
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you think rCo this is a tricky one, but you guys donrCOt much like each other and you donrCOt much trust each other. YourCOre insulting each other on social media constantly. Do you think you could
do that with people that you dislike, where there seems to be such
personal vitriol between some of these leaders?

Elon Musk: Yes. Well, IrCOm not a fan of Sam Altman becauserCo

If you started a nonprofit that was meant to be an open source AI
company, owned by the world, and it somehow got turned into an $800
billion for-profit company with closed source, I think yourCOd be like, rCLWell, wait a second, thatrCOs the exact opposite of what I donated the money for.rCY ThatrCOs my issue. I think itrCOs a legitimate one.

And then Dario, I think, is also not a fan of Sam Altman because he felt
rCo in fact, the reason the Anthropic team left OpenAI is because they didnrCOt trust Sam Altman. Otherwise Anthropic wouldnrCOt exist. They would still be at OpenAI.

I think Dario is a very principled person. He cares about things a lot.
He cares about the future of the world. And I think everyone IrCOve met at Anthropic so far rCo no one set off my evil detector. They always seem
like theyrCOre well-intentioned. The road to hell is, I think, mostly
paved with bad intentions. There are a few well-intentioned paving
stones in there, so we donrCOt want to be complacent. But at the end of
the day, if we have to talk, werCOll talk. Set aside our personal
differences for the good of the world.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, thatrCOs a very good thing for the rest of us
to hear.


Elon Musk: Yeah.

AI, Jobs, and the Future of Work
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Can we turn to one other risk that people worry
about, particularly, I think, ordinary Americans, where AI has become incredibly unpopular? 75% of people are worried about it. And I think
they worry about their jobs. And if you look atrCo Dario has said
famously, what, 50% of entry-level jobs, entry-level white-collar jobs
will be gone within a few years. YourCOre building humanoid robots.

Elon Musk: Yes. He also said, I mean, Dario did dig his own grave here regarding Mythos because he said, you know, rCLMythos is like super scary, terrifying, and also, by the way, werCOre going to release it.rCY And then itrCOs like, what do you mean? So I think he will probably in the future choose his words differently. Because obviously if you makerCo if you
terrify everyone and then say, rCLOh, werCOre releasing this terrifying thing,rCY people will obviously be alarmed about that. YourCOve literally
told them to be scared, and then you release the scary thing, and so
they will be scared. That is natural.


Zanny Minton Beddoes: So I certainly donrCOt want you to alarm people, but
I do think there is a really important debate about how quickly and to
what degree AIs displace people from jobs. Because it is, as you say, if
in 10 years thererCOs more intelligence, artificial intelligence, than any human intelligence.

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And if you arerCo and I think yourCOre ahead of everyone, at least in this country, on powering humanoid robots. ThatrCOs
also going to be kind of factory work. So are you closer to Dario, letrCOs say, in your sense of the pace at which jobs are going to be displaced?

Elon Musk: I do think itrCOs going to be a bumpy road because AI will be
able to do any job better than any person can do that job. And that will
be true very quickly of jobs that are digital or really anything that
involves a person at a computer or on a phone. AI could do all of that. WerCOll be able to do all of that very soon.

For software engineering, we already have a situation where AI is better
than at least 90% of humans at writing softwarerCo 90% of professional software engineers at writing software. And it really is getting to the
point where itrCOll be better than 99%. And then itrCOll get to the point where thererCOs just no way to compete. ItrCOll get to what I call Stockfish level.

Stockfish is the chess program that is so good at chess that it will
easily beat Magnus Carlsen or anyone at chess, even running on a small computer. I suspect that you could probably run Stockfish on your phone
and beat Magnus Carlsen. ThatrCOs how good it is at chess. And thatrCOs how good AI will be at writing software.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And beyond software? BeyondrCo

Elon Musk: And that applies to everything.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Everything?

Elon Musk: Everything, everything.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But what about physical jobs, for assembly jobs?
You will also need the capability in humanoid robots, which so far isnrCOt there yet, is it?

Elon Musk: Right. So thatrCOs why I said digital AI and then physically manifested AI in the form of robots, where the robot is more or less an
end effector. It would have some amount of local intelligence, but be
managed by a large AI model.

And IrCOve said many times, I think work is going to be optional. A good comparison would be gardening. You donrCOt have to garden, you donrCOt have
to grow vegetables in your garden. You can go to the store and there are
going to be pristine vegetables, or you could grow vegetables in your
garden and they will actually be less perfect. Your tomatoes are not
going to be as plump and juicy as the ones at the store. TheyrCOll look a little artisanal. But if you go to a friendrCOs house and they make dinner with vegetables from their garden, itrCOs a nice touch. So thatrCOs what
work is going to be like.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I get that. I mean, in that world, I would be
hopeless because I canrCOt garden to save my life. But I get the idea.
People still like playing chess with each other, even though every
computer is better. But letrCOs just think about the politics of this.

Elon Musk: Yeah.

The Politics of Displacement and Universal Income
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because it soundsrCo yourCOre describing a world where within 10 years, pretty much every job can be done better by
intelligence. And yes, yourCOre seeing huge returns to this intelligence
to people like you. YourCOre the wealthiest man in the world. What about people who lose their jobs, who are displaced, who may go off and
gardenrCo how are they going to live? And what kind ofrCo it sounds to me
like a universal high income. But how are you going to get there? LetrCOs
talk about the politics of this, because right now, if we look at the political pressures in most countries, people are very, very worried
about this, very against it. It seems to me that thererCOs a risk that we
are heading more for revolution than for an easy route to this nirvana yourCOre pointing at.

Elon Musk: It will be a bumpy road. IrCOm not suggesting that everything
will be smooth sailing here. There are many jobs that used to exist that donrCOt exist because of computers. The word rCLcomputerrCY used to refer to a person doing computations. That used to be a job description of a
person. And you can see pictures online of buildingsrCo entire skyscrapers just filled with people doing calculations to do things like calculate
the interest on your bank balance. This is how things were done for a
long time, until computers came around. And even in the beginning,
computers were very expensive and hard to use.

The thing thatrCOs different here is that the pace of change is radically accelerated. But still, some people were upset that their job of
calculating bank interest would no longer be available. But now I think yourCOd be hard pressed to find people who want to do that job.


I have a suggestion for science fiction books people might want to read
to get a sense of what the future will be like. The best envisioning of
an AI future that IrCOve read are the books by Iain Banks, the Culture books.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm just reading Accession. Thanks to you, IrCOve started reading these. But I actually donrCOt find that future a terribly appealing one because I donrCOt think humans have agency in that future.

Elon Musk: They have agency, minimal, compared to the Mind, small way.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But the ironyrCo I mean, Iain Banks, as you know,
was a socialist. Iain Banks had a very different political philosophy.

Elon Musk: IrCOm not sure I would entirely agree with that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: LetrCOs agree that that could be where we end up.
IrCOm concerned about the road, and we live in democracies and people are
very worried about this. So I guess two questions. Firstly, do you have
to have massive redistribution from people like you to the people who
are losing their jobs? Do you need to pay more tax? Do you need much
higher taxes on capital so that you fund some kind of universal income? Otherwise, what do people live off?

Elon Musk: I think that the Treasury should just simply issue people checks.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, yeah, but whererCOs the revenue coming from? I mean, IrCOm enough of an economistrCo if you just issue checks, yourCOre going to have inflation.

Elon Musk: A lot of what werCOre trying to think about is things that were relevant in the past. They will not be relevant in the future. Inflation
is simply the ratio of money to goods and services. So if the goods and services output increases dramaticallyrCo if it increases 1,000%rCo you can literally print, or in these days, change the database. ItrCOs not really print money. You create money in the database. Provided the creation of
that money is less than the rate at which goods and services increase,
you will actually have deflation.

So IrCOll make a prediction: deflation will be the issue, not inflation. Because as the output of goods and services increases, if the output of
goods and services increases faster than the money supply, you will have deflation.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm perfectly willing to believe that. You may
well be right. But IrCOm really hung up on how we get from the current polarized, angry, fearful policy we have now to this nirvana. You can
paint a picture where people are so scared by this that they essentially
try to stop it. Maybe they canrCOt, but you get nationalized. ThererCOs a
kind of far-left government. ThererCOs exorbitant tax increases. The
economy crumbles because people are so worried about a future which does
sound quite scary as you describe it. So how do you handle the politics now?

Elon Musk: ItrCOs exhilarating and terrifying.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But if you were in therCo yeah, exactly.

Elon Musk: Honestly, if you ask me on any given dayrCo in fact, even intradayrCo IrCOve gone from exhilaration to terror regarding AI. So I want
to be clear, IrCOm not trying to be some Candide here, some Panglossian
view of the world where everythingrCOs going to be great. No risk. IrCOm saying there is some risk.

What Governments and Companies Should Do
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think we agree on that. I guess IrCOm trying to be more sort of small bore and practical and think about what can be done
now to limit those risks. And you gave a very strong argument for what
you and your fellow model makers could do. What should governments do?

Elon Musk: I think it probably would be good for us to coordinate and
just highlight issues that we see in each otherrCOs models to mitigate downside risk.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: What should the governmentrCo should you be paying
more tax to fund more transfer programs?

Elon Musk: Well, first of all, I do pay a lot of tax. In fact, I set a
record for the most amount of taxes ever paid by a human.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs also because yourCOre the worldrCOs richest man.

Elon Musk: Well, even before that. My guess is that I will pay many
trillions in tax. And IrCOm fine with that. ThatrCOs just the way itrCOs going to be. But I donrCOt think in a future where money is relevant, I think taxation also becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And what about giving people a sense that they
have a share in the upside?

Elon Musk: Sure.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Giving people shares in SpaceX and Tesla. Do you
think thatrCOsrCo and thererCOs a lot of talk about this right now.

Elon Musk: Well, one of the reasons I took SpaceX public is so that the
public could participaterCo they could own a piece of SpaceX. Whereas as a private company, werCOre very limited in the number of shareholders werCOre allowed to have before going public. So as a public company, we can have millions of shareholders. As a private company, werCOre limited to just a
few thousand shareholders.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So do you think there should be distribution of
shares? Like, the Alaska Wealth FundrCo could you imagine a world, and
some people talk about the Trump accounts being a kind of vehicle for
this, that a share of your equity goes to ordinary Americans?

Elon Musk: Right. Well, in the taxes that I payrCo for my stock options, I
pay 40% income tax on a national basis. And then because I spend about
30% of my time in California, thereabouts, I pay another roughly a third
of the California state taxes, which are now around 15%. So I pay about
45% in taxes, just so people know this. Roughly half. Then when I die, thererCOll be another roughly 45%rCo roughly halfrCo that will be taxed. So at the end of the day, IrCOll probably have a quarter of whatever I have.

But I think the only thing it gives me is that for some period of time,
I would have control over the direction of the companies. ThatrCOs pretty
much all it gets me. Until the AI is so smart that itrCOs in charge. And
at that point, controlling companies wonrCOt really matter.

Power, Control, and Geopolitical Influence
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, letrCOs talk about that, because I think one
of the other things that worries people about the direction werCOre
heading in, and IrCOm going to caricature it, but people think that the direction of the world is being shaped by a very small number of
incredibly powerful people. And you are right at the top of that list.

Elon Musk: What else isrCo but is this different from the past?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I agree with you. I think it was like that. When wasnrCOt that the case?

Elon Musk: It was ever thus.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But it is a, as yourCOve described very vividly,
itrCOs an incredibly rapid change. And so letrCOs start with control of your company, which you definitely have now. After the IPO, you basically,
you have 80% odd of voting shares. And as I understand it, you can only
be removed by a vote of shares which you yourself control. So tell me if
IrCOm wrong, but I think you can go crazy.

Elon Musk: Yeah, well, thererCOs a few companies in that bucket, by the
way. The AI companies, like GooglerCOs in that bucket, Alphabet, is
controlled by Larry and Sergey.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think yours is more extreme. The inability torCo

Elon Musk: No, but itrCOs the same level ofrCo they have voting control of that company. Mark Zuckerberg has control of Meta. And, you know, Mark
is trying very hard on the AI front. And I think probably will also have
a leading AI. HerCOs maderCo I think he released one last week. So I think herCOll be one of therCo you know, Meta will be one of the AI companies.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But is it sensible for one person to have so much control over a company?

Long-Term Vision vs. Short-Term Pressures
Elon Musk: Well, I really just need to make sure that I can focus on long-term. By long-term, I just mean in the 5 to 10 years. So one of the challenges with being a public company is that it isrCo thererCOs the
pressure to have great results every single quarter, and to not really
invest in things that may only pay off in 5 to 10 years.

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Stadler (Transcript)
In the case of SpaceX, I needrCo I want to extend consciousness beyond
Earth and have a growing civilization on the Moon, Mars, and elsewhere
in the solar system. The return, I think ultimately this would have a
very high return on investment, but in the short term, werCOll be spending
all this money on a moon base or a Mars base. And then people are likerCo IrCOm going to get all this pressure, like, rCLWell, you missed your
earnings this quarter because you spent too much on Mars.rCY IrCOm like,
yes. By the way, that was in the S-1 prospectus and itrCOs literally
listed as a thing we will do. So we did.

But they still get grumpy about these things, because theyrCOre like,
rCLWell, you said your gross margin would be this and itrCOs actually
slightly worse.rCY And now werCOre going to punish you, and the short
sellers all descend upon you and you get a lot of pressure.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre going to get a lot of that.

Elon Musk: Yeah. So I just need some way to say, rCLListen guys, werCOre
going to focus on 5 to 10 year or longer time horizon investments. This
will depress our short-term earnings.rCY But if you take a long-term viewrCo and there are investors, we have many investors that do take a long-term
view. In fact, IrCOm a big fan of the retail investors. I find our retail investors on balance are very insightful and have very long-term views.

But if you ask whatrCOs the incentive structure for portfolio managers,
itrCOs sort of understandable why they put so much pressure on quarterly earnings, because their compensation and whether they get promoted or
not is dependent on how their portfolio does. And they only have a few
years to make these decisions, and then theyrCOre evaluated based on those decisions over the course of sometimes only a year or less. And so since theyrCOre under pressure to have immediate returns, they then put
companies under pressure to have immediate returns. So once you
understand the incentive structure, the behavior naturally follows.

Key Man Risk and the Apple Analogy
Zanny Minton Beddoes: What about, though, key man risk? I mean, what
happens? Heaven forbid, but what happens if you get run over by the
proverbial bus tomorrow? You have total control over these companies. Do
you have a plan for how they would progress without you?

Elon Musk: I think they would actually do very well for several years. ThererCOs a clear roadmaprCo or space map, I should sayrCo for SpaceX. And thererCOs a roadmap actually for Tesla, literally. So if you look at Apple after Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs had a strategic vision and a bunch of
products that he had ideas for, and Apple has done very well. But when
you donrCOt have a creative genius like Steve Jobs, what ApplerCOs missing
are the incredible breakthrough products. So they make amazing phones,
great computers, but Apple hasnrCOt come up with a Steve Jobs-level breakthrough product.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So by analogy, thatrCOs what you bring to all of
your companies. You mentioned Mars. You know, most people think of you
as the man who wants to create a colony on Mars so we have a
multi-planetary civilization.

Elon Musk: IrCOve been saying that for such a long time.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You have, but now you seem more focused on AI and
what AI will do in the next 10 years. And you sound much more excited
about using the Moon as a base from which to pop out orbital AI
satellites. Have you shifted your attention away from Mars, or are you
as interested in colonizing Mars as you ever were?

Consciousness, the Future, and Star Wars
Elon Musk: IrCOm interested in the set of actions that propagate
consciousness into the future to the maximum degree possible, so that
the future light cone of consciousness is as big as we could make it. ThererCOs an exciting future where werCOre a spacefaring civilization out there among the stars, and the great things that are envisioned in the non-dystopian sci-fi books and movies become real one day. I sort of
want the Star Trek, Star Wars future. Star Wars was the first movie I
ever saw in a theater, by the way.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Really?

Elon Musk: Maybe it had a profound effect on me. I rememberrCo I was 6
years old, and it blew my mind, honestly. I was like, rCLThis is the
greatest thing IrCOve ever seen.rCY

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Has your life been about making that happen?

Elon Musk: Yeah, I meanrCo I didnrCOt think it would be when I was young.
But my life feels somewhat surreal. I canrCOt believe these things are actually happening. I think the world makes me believe in simulation
theory, where itrCOs like, the things IrCOm doing are so preposterous that itrCOs hard to believe theyrCOre real. I mean, werCOve got Starship, which is the largest, most powerful flying object ever made. And we intend to
launch that more than once per hour.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I know, I read that. And people can quibble about
how quickly it happens, but I think based on your track record, we
should assume it will happen at some point.

Elon Musk: It will happen.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCOm just struck that when IrCo I am as blown away by this world as you are, and I watch it from a much more naive level, but
for me, the whole evolution of AI and the capabilities of these models
is in and of itself so mind-blowing.

Elon Musk: ItrCOs pretty much happening as I thought it would.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Is it?

Elon Musk: Yeah.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Oh, thatrCOs interesting.

Elon Musk: And not just me, many people predicted this. Ray KurzweilrCOs predictions have been remarkably accurate.

Starlink, Geopolitical Power, and the War in Ukraine
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, the singularity approaching. LetrCOs go back
more immediately to the here and now. WerCOve talked about concentration
of control in your companies. YourCOve made a very good case for why you should have it. You also have, through Starlink, incredible geopolitical power. I mean, IrCOm one of your customers. Excellent product. But without them, the Ukrainians would have been in serious, serious trouble. And
when yourCo

Elon Musk: Yes, the Ukrainian government has publicly thanked Starlink
many times for being instrumental in defending Ukraine.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And you recently decided to prevent the Russians
in the occupied territories from having access to Starlink.

Elon Musk: Well, no, we were never at any point selling Starlink to
Russians.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But they were grabbing it, right? They were using
it. YourCOve now stopped them from doing that.

Elon Musk: Well, they essentially got Starlink units that they ordered
through Ukraine and then smuggled them into Eastern Ukraine where the
Russians are, and were then using them in some cases for attacks. Now,
in order to address this, we worked with the Ukrainian government to
create a whitelist of approved Starlink terminals. Now, this has some downsides because a whole bunch of people who were just innocent users
of Starlink and just trying to access the internet for work or for
education now donrCOt have Starlink.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: These are geopolitical decisions of consequence.
How do you feel about having that power? You could determine the outcome
of wars. How does that feel? And is it right that you should have that
power?

Elon Musk: Well, IrCOm not sure werCOre determining the ultimate outcome of the war in Ukraine. I do hope that thererCOs some sort of peace agreement reached soon, because for 2 or 3 years now, the border has barely moved,
and every day there are lots of people dying at the front line. I think thererCOs a lot of wishful thinking here of people saying, rCLWell, Russia should completely withdraw,rCY etc., but this is not realistic.

I really think there needs to be a peace that is pragmatic about this.
What I think would be terrible is if thererCOs another 3 years of people
dying senselessly at the front lines. You have to say, rCLHow do you
explain to the children of the men that are dying at the front lines?rCY
On the Russian side too, by the way, theyrCOre being conscripted and sent there.

I am quite offended by fancy diplomats who have 7-course dinners in
luxurious places while people are dying at the front lines, and who pontificate about how Russia should withdraw, but theyrCOre not going to. RussiarCOs not going to withdraw. So there really needs to be an accepted peace along those lines.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And do you think itrCOs your responsibility to play
a role in tipping the scales towards what you see as the right way to peace?

Elon Musk: IrCOve been advocating peace for a long time. I posted a few
years ago that there really needs to be some concession here to Russia.
This is not me being pro-Russia, IrCOm just being pragmatic, or people
will die for years with nothing achieved. And that is exactly what happened.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I donrCOt know, I mean, the Ukrainians are doing
pretty well right now with their incredible drone capacity hitting
inside Russia. And the general consensus is that the balance of the war
is shifting. But my point is not so much about whatrCOs rightrCo

Elon Musk: Ukraine is not going to retake those territories. It is not
going to happen.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: My interest is really on whether you think, given
that you have through Starlink an incredible power, whether itrCOs
appropriate that you should wield it. ThatrCOs quite rare that an
individual actor has such power by turning on and off a capability to
shape conflict.

Elon Musk: Well, is there something you think I should do differently?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I mean, I think you were right to support Ukraine.
I think that, as it wonrCOt surprise you, I think that the Russian
aggression was, for many, many reasons, an appalling aggression. And I
think that that was an important thing that you did.

Elon Musk: Yeah. I mean, I did a very deep dive into the background of
that conflict to understand exactly what was going on. And IrCOm reminded
of the old adage that there are no angels in war.

DOGE, Domestic Politics, and the Role of Government
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs a similar tone, I think, about domestic
politics where yourCOve played a big role domestically, politically here.
You spent a lot of money on Donald TrumprCOs reelection. After the
election, you got very actively involved, through Doge, you tried to cut
a lot of spending, reshape the government. How do you feel that it
wasnrCOt hugely successful in the sense that there wasnrCOt nearly as much spending cut as you tried? As you look back on that, do you regret
getting so involved in politics? Do you think it was a good thing to do?

Elon Musk: I think I got a little too involved in politics, got carried
away, frankly. The goal with the Doge stuff was to try to do something
about the deficit, which is massive, where the interest payments exceed
the amount of money spent on the Department of War. Basically, if you
add up all the money spent on what is now the Department of War and intelligence in the US, that is smaller than the interest payments on
the debt.

So I thought, well, we need to take a close look at spending and make
sure that money is being spent in sensible ways and that it is not
wasted or spent on fraudulent activities. And I got a lot of flak for
this, obviously.

But people donrCOt understand just how simple it was for the Doge team to approve payments. We literally just asked to have the contact
information of the recipient, or some evidence that money was going to
its intended purpose. But over and over, we were told, oh, we need to
wire money for some sort of important cause in Africa. And werCOre like,
okay, but the wiring instructions are to Deloitte Touche in Washington,
D.C., not to Africa. So we would like to send the money to Africa. Can
you please connect us with the recipients so we can send them the money directly? And then we get silence.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We donrCOt need to relitigate DOGE. I have no doubt
that thererCOs a lot of waste in the US government.

Elon Musk: I think probably much worse than anyone could possibly imagine.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think it is a fair criticism that the way
you shut down a whole bunch of programs probably, in fact, certainly
caused unnecessary suffering. I mean, norCo you donrCOt buy that at all?

Elon Musk: It caused a lot of complaining.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You donrCOt buy the idea that anybodyrCo to put it really crudely and simplyrCo any kid in Africa died because of the
suddenness with whichrCo

Elon Musk: Zero.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I just donrCOt think thatrCOs right. I mean, IrCOve had people reporting in Africa whorCo

Elon Musk: How many NGOs are there that could step in? Bear in mind, it happened quickly. And there are literally tens of thousands of NGOs.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Not everyone functions as fast as you do. If
funding is cut off for antiretrovirals overnight and it just stops, then people will die when they donrCOt have access to them. And it justrCo

Elon Musk: No, only if they cannot get funding for that. But the Gates Foundation has $50 billion. What about them? What about any one of a
number of organizations? What about MacKenzie Bezos? She gave away $50 billion. What about that?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: LetrCOs be practical. In many of these countries,
USAID was the biggest funder. But I donrCOt want to have a conversation
about this.

Elon Musk: USAID was a political organization.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It may also have been that, but it was the biggest funder of healthcare systems. It was a very strong funder of regime
change. And there may well be benefits from having changedrCo

Elon Musk: Also, USAID funding was not stopped. It was moved to the
State Department.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: It was stopped. There were huge numbers of things
shut down in Africa that wererCo

Elon Musk: No, there were claims of this. These claims are false.
TheyrCOre nonsense and absolute nonsense. When funding is stopped for fraudulent organizations, do you think theyrCOre going to say, rCLPlease
keep funding the fraudrCY? Or do you think theyrCOre going to come up with a sad story that sounds sympathetic in order to get the funding restored? Obviously, it will be the latter. And thatrCOs exactly what they did. But
zero died because of that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs what I would take issue with. I actually
have a lot of sympathy for the change of the aid regime that the US
under the Trump administration has precipitated. However, I think the
pace and the suddenness with which it happened will almost certainly
have caused unnecessary suffering and deaths. And I think both of those
can be true.

Elon Musk: No, I think thatrCOs totally false.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, well, letrCOsrCo

Elon Musk: And obviously false because the amount of funding werCOre
talking about is far less than what can be supported via foundations
like the Gates Foundation or MacKenzie BezosrCOs foundation. SherCOs given away tens of billions of dollars. The Gates Foundation has tens of
billions of dollars. They are capable of acting very quickly. And if
they didnrCOt, I would say theyrCOre equally responsible.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I see.

Elon Musk: Okay. Obviously.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right. Fair point.

Elon Musk: Zero people died because of drugs.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I hear you loud and clear. Zero. I hear you loud
and clear.

Elon Musk: Obviously.

Stepping Back from DOGE and Views on the Trump Administration
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Domestically, you stepped away from DOGE. It was
hard to do what you were trying to do, as yourCOve just explained. But
this administration has gone in directions that I suspect you were not expecting two and a half years ago.

Elon Musk: The war on Iran. IrCOm not going to agree with everything any administration does.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you disappointed by this administration?

Elon Musk: No, I think this administration, on balance, is excellent. No administration is perfect, but itrCOs vastly better than the alternative.

Europe, Immigration, and Free Speech
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Can we talk about Europe, a place that you are
very, very focused on?

Elon Musk: IrCOm not that focused on Europe.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think judging by your posts, yourCOre pretty
concerned about Europe. You supportrCo

Elon Musk: I mean, once in a while I post something.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs reasonably frequently, itrCOs not once in a while. But IrCOm genuinely interested in this as someone who lives in
Europe, lives in London. You paint a picturerCo well, first of all, you support not just the populist right but the far right, in fact very
fringe parties in some countries.

Elon Musk: No, I support the normal people. What do you call the far
right falsely?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You think that is the normal person? Okay.

Elon Musk: Yes. Literally, you could go back 10 or 15 years, and these policies were completely normal. In fact, one of the things I think is
funny is to take a speech from Obama and Hillary and then go to someone
who is on what I call the lunatic left, and say, rCLWhat do you think of
the speech by Trump?rCY And theyrCOll say, rCLOh wow, herCOs the worst person ever.rCY And then you say, rCLActually, that was a speech by Obama,rCY or rCLActually, that was a speech by Hillary.rCY

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I agree that the center of gravity in this country
has shifted, certainly in the Democratic Party shifted to the left, but thatrCOs not what IrCOm talking about. IrCOm talking about people like Rupert Low.

Elon Musk: ItrCOs actually just normal people. ItrCOs just normal people.
And here are the principles rCo tell me which of these sound terrible:
that we should have secure borders, that we should have safe cities,
that we should have sensible spending. Which of those three are
far-right fringe? And I would like to admonish you and the media for the absurd characterization of the far right. It is false and misleading and nonsense. Please keep this part in.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: WerCOll keep all of this in. But let merCo

Elon Musk: DonrCOt cut this part.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let me push back on that. Because it is nonsense.
Elon, you have close to 250 million followers on X. You say things like
rCo and IrCOm quoting you rCo rCLCivil war in Britain is inevitable. Just a question.rCY

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: When were you last in the UK?

Elon Musk: A few years ago.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Exactly. I live there. IrCOm there the whole time.
That is nonsense.

Elon Musk: You live a cloistered existence.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, I donrCOt, actually. And the numbers also
disprove what you say. All the numbers about crime rCo London is a much
safer city than any city in the United States. Violent crime in the UK
is not where you think it is. In fact, itrCOs coming down. You have
painted, and because you have so many followers, so many Americans
believe it, a kind of view that Europe and the UK are overrun with
terrifying Muslim immigrants. ThererCOs rape on every corner. ThererCOs a
sort of civilizational destruction.

Elon Musk: I havenrCOt said any of those things.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, you said civil war in Britain is inevitable.

Elon Musk: And yes, if current trends continue, it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Why?

Elon Musk: Well, if you have a large and growing, rapidly growing, group
of people whose beliefs are antithetical to Western beliefs, at some
point there will be a reckoning. They will try to implement their views,
and those who oppose it will oppose it, and thatrCOs what you call civil
war. And obviously this is the trend. And you absolutely do live in a cloistered existence. And if yourCOd like, we can go on a tour of Britain.

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(Full Transcript)
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Sure, IrCOm very happy to come on a tour of Britain.
You come see my country that I live in all the time and that you havenrCOt been to in a few years.

Elon Musk: IrCOve been there literally 100 times.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when was the last time?

Elon Musk: A few years ago.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: You know why this exercises me? Because you have
really shaped opinion about the UK. So many Americans I come across will
say rCo and I just had one the other day rCo rCLOh, LondonrCOs such a dangerous
place. How can you live there? There are grooming gangs everywhere.
ThererCOs violence everywhere.rCY This is a picture that people get from things that you post or that are posted on X.

For example, your posting for 48 hours of Citizen Vigilante, that film
which paints a dystopianrCo IrCOve watched it. I watched it yesterday. ItrCOs not a very good movie, but it also paints a dystopian picture of Europe,
and it glorifies vigilante violence. It glorifies the murdering of a
Muslim immigrant family. I honestly think that it is irresponsible for
you to put that up on X.

Elon Musk: I think itrCOs a movie and itrCOs worth watching.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre clearly suggesting Europe is a dystopian
place and yourCo

Elon Musk: Yes. I mean, why arenrCOt you doing more to fight censorship in Europe? I seem to be doing nothing to fight censorship in Europe.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs not true.

Elon Musk: There are people in prison in the UK for social media posts.
Do you think thatrCOs appropriate?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. And werCOve written editorials against it.

Elon Musk: Okay, great.

Europe, Immigration, and Media Trust
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Then thatrCOs the sort of thing that I think is bad.
And I think if yourCo And I agree with you, but I donrCOt think you have to glorify vigilante violence and kind of post the things that you are
doing and paint an entirely inaccurate picture of Europe.

Elon Musk: I donrCOt think it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We should do a tour of the UK.

Elon Musk: Yes. And one of Brussels too.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because the UK has actually been very good at integrating immigrants. The UK is very effective at doing that. There
are problems. IrCOm the first to admit that there are problems.

Elon Musk: Yes, there are major problems.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: There are problems, but it is notrCo it really is
not what you are describing to or suggesting to your 240 million followers.

Elon Musk: I think it is.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: And I think thererCOs a problem.

Elon Musk: No, I think IrCOm spot on.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, werCOll have torCo

Elon Musk: And thatrCOs why you have freedom of speech, or at leastrCo

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, freedom of speech allows people to say
things that are wrong, but your point is not that. YourCOre not just
saying I have every right to say what I want. YourCOre saying you know, I
am right about Europe, and I really donrCOt think you are.

Elon Musk: I think I am.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you will find that most people in Europe,
or many people in Europe, donrCOt think yourCOre right about it. But letrCOs come to that because the media keeps ignoring whatrCOsrCo

Elon Musk: rCoignoring reality.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I donrCOt think thatrCOs true either. I reallyrCo

Elon Musk: rCoand theyrCOre programmed by the TV and conventional media.

Why Focus on EuroperCOs Problems?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why are yourCo this is, I guess, even to me sort
of the bigger picture questionrCo why do you focus on this? Why are you interested in it? Because on the one hand, we started this conversation
and you described to me this extraordinarily transformative, amazing,
sort of civilizational-changing stuff thatrCOs happening in the next 10
years. And yet yourCOre also an ongoing participant in the worst kind of tribalism, the cesspit of social media. How does that fit? TheyrCOre two
very different views of the world.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I donrCOt think theyrCOre inconsistent.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why do you do the latter one, the tribalism? I
mean, people say that yourCOre a racist. People say that there are all
kinds of things said about you which IrCOm sure you would disagree with.
But I just donrCOt understand what is the motivation for doing that. Are
you fomentingrCo

Elon Musk: My partner is half Indian, and I have 4 children with her.
One of them was named after a famous Indian physicist. So I would say
IrCOm not racist. And also, if you look at the people that are employed at
my companies, we have senior executives of all races. I donrCOt think thererCOs any racism there.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you anti-Muslim?

Elon Musk: I am against havingrCo if people are coming to a country with antithetical views, I am against that. IrCOm against rape and murder. IrCOm against the imposition of rules and laws that are contrary to what werCOve come to accept in the West. And I think itrCOs a crying shame that the
sort of traditional media like you donrCOt recognize this.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: First of all, I think that you hugely exaggerate
the challenges that Europe faces. Secondly, in areas I completely agree
with you. I think that the constraints on freedom of speech in the UK in certain areas are problematic. What worries me is that the people you
are supporting are really quite vile people in some areas. Like some
members of the AfD, Alice Weidel, whom IrCOve met, is a perfectly
thoughtful person. But in her party are some real neo-Nazis, some
really, really awful people. And your blanket support of this kind of
party with 240 million followers means that you have a power in Europe
that I think perhaps you donrCOt realize the scale of impact you have.

Elon Musk: I hope I am having a bigger impact.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why? Why should you? Why should you be able to
shape European politics? You donrCOt even live there.

Elon Musk: I think of it as the West collectively.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you see why this makes people think that
this man who has all this powerrCo herCOs the worldrCOs richest manrCo he thinks
he has a right to influence our politics? ThatrCOs why, you know, we
started this conversation saying superlatives. ItrCOs why people loathe
you. I mean, some people do loathe you.

Elon Musk: Yes, some people do.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you understand why? Do you think what
yourCOre doing is helpful for Western democracy?

Elon Musk: Maybe some people do loathe me.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCo

Elon Musk: And thatrCOs probably truerCo I donrCOt care. But the fact that, as you pointed out, a quarter billion people follow me is that I think a
lot more people actually like me than donrCOt. And I think a lot more
people hate you and the media more than you realize. Do you realize the
media is despised? Do you realize that the view of journalists isrCo a favorable view of journalists is like 15%.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I do know that in the United States.

Elon Musk: So the shoe is on the other foot. They hate you. They hate
you far more than they hate me.

Trust in Media and Journalism
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think there is certainly a loss of trust in journalism. I think in part there have been mistakes by journalists and journalism. I totally acknowledge that. But I also think that the kind
of polarized environment, particularly on social media, fostered by the
kinds of things you are pushing on X, actually helps this, makes it worse.

Elon Musk: I donrCOt think so. I think yourCOre the problem, the media. And speaking of loathing, yourCOre loathed far more than I am, and you donrCOt seem to even realize that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think very few people know who I am relative to
you, so I donrCOt think I play in the same game.

Elon Musk: The media collectivelyrCo yourCOre hated. Do you even know that? You probably donrCOt.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I like to think that IrCOm aware of my own personal shortcomings and The EconomistrCOs shortcomings and our worldview shortcomings. But what we stand for, as you know, is liberal values, traditional classical liberal values, where we worry about
concentrations of power and we believe in the individual and the dignity
of the individual, and individual freedom. I firmly believe that. And I
have long thought that you were a classical liberal. Classical liberal,
J.S. Mill, limited government, individual freedom.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I agree with that.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when I read what you post on your feed, I
sometimes wonder whether you really do believe in that.

Elon Musk: I literally said, look, I believe in safe cities, secure
borders, and sensible spending with respect to government. That doesnrCOt
make me right-wing at all, in the least.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Does the US or do European countries score better
on those?

Elon Musk: The US is better.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. Safe citiesrCo much more dangerous in the US
than the UK. Sensible spendingrCo bigger deficit here, out of control. You managedrCo yourCOve failed to reduce it. Secure bordersrCo now under the Trump administration, I agree with you. Before, not. But on 2 out of 3, unequivocally Europe is in a better place. Yet you seem to paint a
picture of Europe being a hellhole.

Elon Musk: I donrCOt think EuroperCOs a hellhole.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: OK, we can agree on something.

Elon Musk: When did I ever say that?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, the picture you paint of Europe on X is notrCo

Elon Musk: No, yourCOre just making up things.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, IrCOm not.

Elon Musk: You just literally make it up.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, IrCOm not. You say civil war in Britain is inevitable, and then you basically proselytize for this citizen
vigilante film, which really does paint Europe as a hellhole. It just
starts with ominous music and it says, rCLEurope.rCY

Elon Musk: Well, there was out-of-control rape and murder.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs more dangerous in this country than it is in Europe.

Elon Musk: Where there is danger in this country is because we fail to incarcerate repeat violent offenders. ThatrCOs the classic sort of Soros
DA or judges that fail to incarcerate repeat violent offenders. And if somebody gets arrested 50 times, literally, for violent crimes,
eventually theyrCOre going to kill somebody. So you either incarcerate
them or people will die.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think the prevalence of guns has quite a lot to
do with it too. I mean, this is a much more dangerous country. Murder
rates are much higher, in large part because there are so many guns.

Elon Musk: Well, let me give you an interesting number. There are more
people that die in Europe from heat deaths than people that die from gun deaths in America. Why arenrCOt you writing an article about air conditioning?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: WerCOve done several on air conditioning, and we had
on our cover last week a whole long piece about whyrCo

Elon Musk: Pro-air conditioning?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, werCOre very pro-air conditioning.

Elon Musk: Okay, good. Well, good.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Very pro. You should read us. Absolutely.

Elon Musk: Credit where itrCOs due.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you have a view of The Economist that is
not entirely accurate. So I willrCo you come look at England, start
reading The Economist, and I will stand corrected on my criticism of you
in this area.

Elon Musk: There are many parts of Britain and Europe which are not
safe. You canrCOt just walk around.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But there are far more in this country. Far more.

Elon Musk: No, I donrCOt think so.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right, letrCOs go and get my fact-checkers to
check that.

Elon Musk: Yeah, I donrCOt think thatrCOs true.

MuskrCOs Influence on European Politics
Zanny Minton Beddoes: LetrCOs move on from this because I think IrCOve got a sense of why yourCOre doing what yourCOre doing.

Elon Musk: The point is notrCo the question is not, is America perfect?
The question is, does Europe have a serious and growing problem?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs where we started this.

Elon Musk: Europe has a serious and growing problem. IrCOm not going to
say that the United States has no problems. Of course it does. But we
should all try to address these issues.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: We can agree on that. We should all try to address
the problems. My point was simply that I think you exaggerate the scale
of EuroperCOs problem and thatrCo

Elon Musk: I think people are asleep at the switch and do not realize
the magnitude of the issue.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I also think that your interventions, however well-intentioned they may be, risk making EuroperCOs problem a lot worse.

Elon Musk: How?

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because you are putting your support behind people
who are proto-authoritarians, who are not trying simply to make sure
there is better integration of Muslims or to secure the borders, but who
have very clear fascist tendencies. And you will cause huge divisions
within Europe.

Elon Musk: I think what yourCOre saying is total fiction. And really, IrCOm simply saying that Europe has to have secure borders.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: On that, we agree.

Elon Musk: And should not let in vast numbers of people with views that
are antithetical to the accepted views in Europe and where there will
not be some level of safe cultural integration. This is simply common sense.

Immigration, Political Views, and the Future
Zanny Minton Beddoes: If all you are saying is Europe should have secure borders, I completely agree with you. Then I have misunderstood what
your interventions have been on social media, because that is not what
the view I have rCo not what I would conclude having seen what the people
you are supporting and the things yourCOre doing. But if thatrCOs your goal,
I share your goal that Europe should have secure borders. Yes. I think thatrCOs perfectly agreeable. That gets me to a question.

Elon Musk: And let me explain what the fundamental forcing function here
is for why the borders are not secure, which is when you have a welfare
state that provides substantial benefits to anyone who comes there, you
create a very powerful economic forcing function for anyone who is below
that standard of living to come to Europe. It is an obvious powerful
driving force. And people will come there if their standard of living
is, from what they get in Europe, is above where they are elsewhere in
the world. ItrCOs very basic.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I completely agree with that. Yes, itrCOs a very
basic incentive structure, economic conditions, economic influences
determine a lot of migration. I think asylum is a separate issue, but I
think yourCOre absolutely right. There are pressures for migration.
However, there are other things that you havenrCOt focused on, which is migration brings a lot of benefits, and it also particularly does so in
a continent like Europe, which is a rapidly aging continent.

So we can agree that completely uncontrolled borders are a bad idea. But
I think Europe benefits from having immigration, controlled immigration.
It brings rCo

Elon Musk: IrCOm in favor of immigration. Obviously, IrCOd be hypocritical
if I wasnrCOt since IrCOm an immigrant to the United States. IrCOm in favor of immigration if the person immigrating is going to be a productive member
of society, if theyrCOre going to be honest, and if theyrCOre not going to mistreat people in that country theyrCOre going to.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: I can agree on all of those.

Elon Musk: Yes.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think that Europe does better on that than
you give it credit for. ThatrCOs, I think, where we disagree. But letrCOs
move on. Tell me, what do you think people get most wrong about you?

Elon Musk: Well, yourCOve just got a whole bunch of things wrong about me. Pretty much everything in the last rCo just rewind the last 20 minutes,
itrCOs all wrong.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: So I got rCo we got rCo I got wrong your rCo

Elon Musk: LetrCOs not be repetitive here.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, so that political side of you, people get
most wrong.

On Being Labeled rCLFar RightrCY
Elon Musk: Yeah, my political views are very centrist. TheyrCOre not far right. And frankly, calling it far right, I think, is an insult to
history, an insult to many peoples, and it is an outrageous falsehood.
ItrCOs completely absurd. I literally have stated my position, which is
that rCo and IrCOve been very clear about this rCo which is that there need to be secure borders. That if thererCOs an influx of immigrants, then they
need to be people who will agree with Western ideals, with Western values.

And if they donrCOt, and if thererCOs a long-term growth of people who do
not, or in some cases are adamantly opposed to Western values, you are
setting yourself up for civil war. This is obvious. A child can see
this. But this is not a right-wing view. IrCOm simply stating reality.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, I think we can both agree that evidence will
be able to decide which of us is more or less right, and we will find
evidence for both of our views in different parts of Europe. The
question is what the overall rCo

Elon Musk: IrCOm very good at predicting the future. IrCOm not perfect, but IrCOm very good at predicting the future. My batting average is very high
for a human. But this does have somewhat of a Cassandra effect where
people donrCOt believe that what IrCOm saying is likely to be true because I can see into the future with a higher probability of success than most
people rCo not perfectly, but with a higher probability.

And including things that people believe to be in some cases
counterintuitive. Again, IrCOm not saying IrCOm always right. I certainly am not. But my batting average is very good. But this does have, like I
said, a Cassandra effect where people donrCOt realize that what IrCOm saying will come to pass, maybe not exactly in the timing that I thought, but
it will come to pass.

And yeah, history will write the verdict. But I think you will see that
very little of what I have said is inaccurate. And a supermajority of
what IrCOve said is very accurate and will come to pass unless thererCOs
some change in direction.

AI vs. Political Predictions
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you have a higher confidence level in your expectations of the future for AI, the first part of our conversation,
or the latter part, the political part?

Elon Musk: AI is digital superintelligence. ItrCOs called the singularity, like a black hole, because you donrCOt know whatrCOs going to happen after that. It sort of sucks in everything. So I think really in terms of the
really big macro effects here, AI and robots will really dominate
everything, on a timescale that is less than 10 years.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Which probably renders this other stuff that werCOve been talking about less important and less relevant.

Elon Musk: The AI robotics revolution will happen sooner than civil war
in Britain. I would say civil war in Britain is probably 20 years away.
And the AI robot singularity is 10 years away.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, hopefully these benign, all-powerful AIs
will prevent such outcomes.

Elon Musk: They probably will.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: Elon, I donrCOt agree with everything you say, but itrCOs always absolutely fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.

Elon Musk: YourCOre welcome. IrCOm not boring.

Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre definitely not boring.

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