• Misplaced credit on submarine sinking

    From a425couple@a425couple@hotmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Fri Jul 31 09:16:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    Misplaced credit on submarine sinking

    Naval Nostalgia

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    The Only U-Boat Ever Lost in the Gulf of Mexico Was Found by a Pipeline
    Survey
    On July 30, 1942, the German submarine U-166 torpedoed the passenger
    freighter Robert E. Lee about 45 miles south of the Mississippi River
    Delta. The ship went down in five minutes. Her escort, the small
    submarine chaser PC-566, turned into the torpedo wake, ran down the
    contact, and dropped depth charges. An oil slick bloomed on the surface,
    and Lieutenant Commander Herbert Claudius reported that he had killed
    the U-boat. The Navy did not believe him. A review committee ruled his
    attack ineffective, criticized his tactics and his patrol station,
    stripped him of his command, and sent him to submarine chaser school in
    Miami like a student who had failed. Two days later a Coast Guard
    aircraft attacked a submarine 140 miles to the west and was handed the
    credit for U-166 instead. Claudius carried that judgment for the rest of
    his life and died before anyone proved otherwise.
    Then in 2001, marine archaeologists Robert Church and Daniel Warren were surveying the seabed for a natural gas pipeline in 5,000 feet of water
    when their sonar picked up a shape that was unmistakably a U-boat, lying
    less than two miles from the wreck of the Robert E. Lee. The damage
    matched Claudius's report exactly. The aircraft on August 1 had in fact attacked U-171, which escaped with minor damage. Robert Ballard returned
    to the site in 2014 with ROVs to map it, and after Richie Kohler raised
    the injustice aboard the expedition ship, Ballard phoned the Chief of
    Naval Operations by satellite. That December, Claudius was posthumously awarded the Legion of Merit with Combat V. U-166 remains the only U-boat
    ever lost in the Gulf, a war grave holding all 52 of her crew, resting
    beside the ship she sank. See less
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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Fri Jul 31 13:15:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:PT3bS.6711$fAKe.4226@fx23.iad...

    ...An oil slick bloomed on the surface,
    and Lieutenant Commander Herbert Claudius reported that he had killed
    the U-boat. The Navy did not believe him. A review committee ruled his
    attack ineffective, criticized his tactics and his patrol station,
    stripped him of his command, and sent him to submarine chaser school in
    Miami like a student who had failed.

    ------------------------------

    This officer was nearly court-martialed for successfully capturing a U-boot and its priceless code equipment intact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_V._Gallery

    "He also received a blistering dressing-down from Admiral Ernest J. King, Chief of Naval Operations. King pointed out that unless U-505's capture
    could be kept an absolute secret, the Germans would change their codes and change out the cipher wheels in the Enigma."

    Gallery didn't know that Bletchley Park had already broken that code and his success could reverse theirs.

    Captain Charles McVay of the cruiser USS indianapolis was tried for allowing his ship to be torpedoed. At his trial one of his staunch defenders was the Japanese sub captain.

    https://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/learn/articles/indianapolis
    "He [Hashimoto] performed a few calculations, ensuring a hit even if the
    ship began to zigzag, and gave the order to fire six torpedoes. Within a few minutes, just after midnight on 30 July, two of these torpedoes slammed into IndyrCOs starboard side."

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Fri Jul 31 16:32:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:114il78$2u7hb$1@dont-email.me...

    Captain Charles McVay of the cruiser USS indianapolis was tried for allowing his ship to be torpedoed. At his trial one of his staunch defenders was the Japanese sub captain.

    -----------------------------

    The survivors spent so long in the water because their destination wasn't expecting them.

    The Japanese sent radio notices of warship travel to the island
    destinations, which we intercepted, decoded and used to position subs in ambush. We may have suspected the Japanese could do the same and so kept
    quiet about ship movement. Also cruisers are supposed to be able to operate independently, unlike smaller warships or more valuable capital ships. An example:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_8_May_1941



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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Sun Aug 2 14:34:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:PT3bS.6711$fAKe.4226@fx23.iad...

    Misplaced credit on submarine sinking
    -------------------------------------
    U-869 is another.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-869

    The crews would release buoyant debris and oil to appear sunk. They had canisters that released gas clouds in water, as decoys for sonar and homing torpedoes.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar_decoy

    Subs were dangerous to attack, sometimes they won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_(SS-238)
    Kennedy was a surface fleet ("target") sailor and too reluctant with his torpedoes. Morton and O'Kane who did the actual aiming and shooting as Exec
    on Wahoo and captain of Tang were among the most successful. O'Kane's book
    is excellent, with more of the technical detail I like than other accounts.

    O'Kane mastered the art of guessing a target's relative course bearing,
    "angle on the bow", which with a few subsequent correcting observations allowed the electromechanical computer to model future target positions and continuously plot a torpedo interception, automatically updated to the torpedo's gyroscope. A similar predictor system with radar range measurement controlled warship surface and AA guns, giving us remarkable accuracy
    compared to others and the unique ability to stay on target while turning to avoid enemy fire. US carrier air power rarely allowed our gunnery to show
    what it could accomplish.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer

    The father in "The Sound of Music" was Austria's most successful U-boot commander in WW1, which is why the Germans wanted him so much. Austria controlled the northern half of the Adriatic coast, opposite Italy. In the movie his and Maria's personalities were swapped. The family had sold the rights and couldn't force corrections to the many changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_Trapp

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  • From Peter Stickney@p_stickney@verizon.net to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Mon Aug 3 07:31:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    On Sun, 2 Aug 2026 14:34:32 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:PT3bS.6711$fAKe.4226@fx23.iad...

    Misplaced credit on submarine sinking
    -------------------------------------
    U-869 is another.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-869

    The crews would release buoyant debris and oil to appear sunk. They had canisters that released gas clouds in water, as decoys for sonar and
    homing torpedoes.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar_decoy

    Subs were dangerous to attack, sometimes they won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_(SS-238)
    Kennedy was a surface fleet ("target") sailor and too reluctant with his torpedoes. Morton and O'Kane who did the actual aiming and shooting as
    Exec on Wahoo and captain of Tang were among the most successful.
    O'Kane's book is excellent, with more of the technical detail I like
    than other accounts.

    O'Kane mastered the art of guessing a target's relative course bearing, "angle on the bow", which with a few subsequent correcting observations allowed the electromechanical computer to model future target positions
    and continuously plot a torpedo interception, automatically updated to
    the torpedo's gyroscope. A similar predictor system with radar range measurement controlled warship surface and AA guns, giving us remarkable accuracy compared to others and the unique ability to stay on target
    while turning to avoid enemy fire. US carrier air power rarely allowed
    our gunnery to show what it could accomplish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer

    With the Electro-Mechanical analog gunnery Computers, such as the TDC,
    with good observation you could fine down the targets parameters -
    Bearing, Course, Speed, and the rates that they were changing, until it
    was tracking the target's position.
    US Navy Surface Ships took it to another dimension. The Optical Director would, once a target was designated and followed manually for a short
    period would automatically track the target, with the human operators adjusting for errors (Rate-Aided Tracking). Later Gunnery Radars would Auto-Track as well. Azimuth, Range and Elevation Data were continually
    sent to the Gunnery Computer, which in concert with the Gyrocompass and
    Stable Vertical, would, with Own Ship data and Environmental inputs,
    calculate the Firing Solution and, through Remote Power Control, train and elevate the guns automatically. If the systems were maintained, accuracy
    was phenominal - at the Battle of Surigao Straight, USS West Virginia, a
    Pearl Harbor survivor that had her Fire Control systems upgraded to the
    latest standard as part of her Repair and Restoration, achieved first
    round hits on the IJN Yamashiro - at night.
    It wasn't just the quality of the components. No other combatant had such complete system integration, with the elimination of most human errors and communication delays.


    The father in "The Sound of Music" was Austria's most successful U-boot commander in WW1, which is why the Germans wanted him so much. Austria controlled the northern half of the Adriatic coast, opposite Italy. In
    the movie his and Maria's personalities were swapped. The family had
    sold the rights and couldn't force corrections to the many changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_Trapp

    Agathe Whithead, his first wife, and mother of the children, was the Granddaughter of Robert Whitehead, the inventor of the first successful self-propelled torpedoes.
    --
    Peter Stickney
    Java Man knew nothing about coffee
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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Mon Aug 3 09:24:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "Peter Stickney" wrote in message news:114pg55$13vhd$1@dont-email.me...

    On Sun, 2 Aug 2026 14:34:32 -0400, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    ...A similar predictor system with radar range
    measurement controlled warship surface and AA guns, giving us remarkable accuracy compared to others and the unique ability to stay on target
    while turning to avoid enemy fire. ...

    With the Electro-Mechanical analog gunnery Computers, such as the TDC,
    with good observation you could fine down the targets parameters -
    Bearing, Course, Speed, and the rates that they were changing, until it
    was tracking the target's position.
    US Navy Surface Ships took it to another dimension. The Optical Director would, once a target was designated and followed manually for a short
    period would automatically track the target, with the human operators
    adjusting for errors (Rate-Aided Tracking). Later Gunnery Radars would Auto-Track as well. Azimuth, Range and Elevation Data were continually
    sent to the Gunnery Computer, which in concert with the Gyrocompass and
    Stable Vertical, would, with Own Ship data and Environmental inputs,
    calculate the Firing Solution and, through Remote Power Control, train and elevate the guns automatically. If the systems were maintained, accuracy
    was phenominal - at the Battle of Surigao Straight, USS West Virginia, a
    Pearl Harbor survivor that had her Fire Control systems upgraded to the
    latest standard as part of her Repair and Restoration, achieved first
    round hits on the IJN Yamashiro - at night.
    It wasn't just the quality of the components. No other combatant had such complete system integration, with the elimination of most human errors and communication delays.

    Agathe Whithead, his first wife, and mother of the children, was the Granddaughter of Robert Whitehead, the inventor of the first successful self-propelled torpedoes.
    Peter Stickney
    ---------------------------------
    Britain wasn't interested so Whitehead sold his torpedo idea to a power that was, Austria-Hungary who would unknowingly become Britain's enemy. At that time Austria held substantial territory bordering the Mediterranean,
    obtained by repelling the Turkish invasion. The peace settlement gave the
    von Trapps Italian citizenship. Instead of fleeing over a mountain to the border they simply took a train to Italy.

    The USS Iowa's computerized 5" AA scored a first round hit on an approaching plane that left only its engine coming toward them.

    USS Washington scored early and well against IJN Kirishima, better than
    their night observation initially reported. https://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdf

    "The 20 major caliber and 17 secondary caliber hits is far more consistent with what may be
    expected by the number of major caliber shells and secondary shells fired at their respected ranges. In
    addition all the hits that struck the ship below the waterline would have
    been observed by Washington as
    a miss due to the shell throwing up a splash."

    The Bismarck scored zero against the approaching British warships at similar range in daylight.

    The Japanese gunnery system worked very well as long as both ships were sailing in straight lines, as required by the partly manual fire control systems of all but the USN. It had significant voice communications delays which we exploited by changing course after each salvo arrived.

    Off Samar Yamato straddled a US carrier with a line of shells at very long range which is perfect aiming, but the range dispersion between shells was many times a ship length. One exploded underwater close enough to dent the hull and shake loose a black cloud of boiler soot, which the Japanese took
    as evidence of a hit.

    US destroyers with the computer which allowed them to fire accurately while avoiding return fire helped hold off Japanese battleships including Yamato
    and heavy cruisers long and well enough that the Japanese mistook them for cruisers. The Japanese admiral was distracted from attacking the Leyte invasion fleet by the mis-identified small escort carrier support element until he realized they weren't the main force, then he claimed he broke off
    to look for it, minus almost all of his originally 10 heavy cruisers and Yamato's sister Musashi sunk or crippled. Japanese Army aviation had
    declined to help him search or defend.

    Halsey's action may have been based on harsh criticism for not pursuing and destroying the Japanese carriers after the Marianas victory. He didn't
    repeat that mistake, instead made a different one. We were lucky that
    Japanese confusion and command level rivalry cancelled it out. They fought very well and might possibly have defeated the invasion, that's a hard call with many variables such as night or day. The Japanese battleships couldn't shoot accurately while turning to dodge the daytime aerial torpedoes and
    bombs that sank Musashi. In a night battle both sides had advantages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangekeeper

    The "Stable Vertical" gyroscope actually fired the guns based on ship roll angle, the operator merely gave it permission. When the USS New Jersey was recommissioned in the 80's an analysis indicated that a digital computer
    would do no better so the mechanical computer stayed, the error sources were elsewhere like hydraulic servo loop stability in the gun mounts.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Mon Aug 3 10:14:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "Peter Stickney" wrote in message news:114pg55$13vhd$1@dont-email.me...

    With the Electro-Mechanical analog gunnery Computers, such as the TDC,
    with good observation you could fine down the targets parameters -
    Bearing, Course, Speed, and the rates that they were changing, until it
    was tracking the target's position.
    US Navy Surface Ships took it to another dimension.

    -----------------------------

    They took it to the third dimension which isn't required for torpedoes. Additionally a submerged sub can't take a radar range which could alert the target to turn and run and has a much less capable optical range finder
    which is based on knowing the height of the target's mast. Newly built ships and others not in the pre-war photo catalog had to be guessed.

    Our subs were hindered by torpedoes that ran deeper than set because the
    depth sensor hadn't been changed from a slower older model, a top secret magnetic exploder tested at the latitude of New England that malfunctioned
    in the tropics where Earth's magnetic field is at a different angle, and an impact exploder made by contractors who didn't know what it was and took a shortcut that slowed the inertial firing pin when the torpedo hit squarely, though not with a low angle impact which confused the investigation. The US sub commander in Australia had participated in torpedo development and
    refused to accept that they could be at fault, it must be the users. The commander in Hawaii solved them and gloated, which angered the developers.

    Germany had similar problems and actually court-martialed those responsible.

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military,aalt.war.world-war-two on Mon Aug 3 12:45:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.aviation.military

    "Peter Stickney" wrote in message news:114pg55$13vhd$1@dont-email.me...
    ....

    Being a developer of new technology, often with no guidance from the theoreticians who created the ideas, I studied the history of its failures
    and tried to determine and not repeat the causes.

    The Titanic and its inquiry bring out the problems. Assuming the mirage
    theory is correct they really couldn't see the huge iceberg until too late,
    it was hidden by refraction in the temperature inversion above the extensive ice field and binoculars for the lookouts wouldn't have helped. The watch officer at lower level may have seen it first, but he didn't survive to testify. The quartermaster at the steering wheel couldn't see forward at
    night because closed shutters kept his instrument lighting from interfering with bridge officers' night vision, and he changed his story every time he
    was questioned.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fata_Morgana_(mirage)

    The 1941 Battle of Los Angeles has been traced to an over-the-horizon radar ducting mirage of seagulls over a garbage scow.

    The ship had been carefully designed to survive the common accident, a tee collision, but not the long lengthwise rip such as affected the Costa Concordia, Mikhail Lermontov and Queen Elizabeth (which survived).
    Lengthwise bulkheads as on the Lusitania might have saved Titanic but make a punctured ship list too far to launch at least half of the lifeboats. Solve one problem, create another. Lack of them let her settle evenly and launch
    all but two collapsible spares which the officers were still struggling with when she went under. They ran out of time and deck hands to lower them and
    row clear, not lifeboats.

    Titanic's sister ship Olympic suffered little from the expected type of collision, a head-on with a U-boat trying to attack.

    The US inquiry by senators with little marine knowledge and passengers with less created more questions. No one had paid attention to time, hardly any
    to the sequence of events and most misinterpreted what they did see,
    although the passengers had nothing to hide. The ship's officers and the British inquiry were mainly concerned with self-preservation. They skipped lightly over the obvious fault of regulations not requiring vessels over 10,000 tons to carry extra lifeboats. Although Titanic had been designed to handle four times as many, space for the stacked spares was cleared to give high fare passengers more promenade area. Having 64 lifeboats on Titanic
    would raise the embarrassing question of why an 'unsinkable' ship needed so many when others didn't.

    The new Welin davits that could handle multiple lifeboats were very
    different and apparently misunderstanding them caused much confusion and delays they couldn't afford. Again, solve one problem but create another.
    This is a real concern with safety interlocks which can malfunction themselves. The 1974 congressionally mandated seat belt interlock is an example. We built the factory test station for the hardware. GM bigwigs
    coming to see it rented a car with it broken and drove up from Boston with
    the loud alarm on. When they arrived, furious, one of us went out, reached down and unplugged the buzzer. It's said Congress received more complaints about that interlock than about Vietnam.

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