• Re: Bass versus Pratt

    From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Sat Jun 20 03:04:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:28:49 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    In what jurisdictions do driver's licences show citizenship? As far as
    I know the ONLY document I own showing my citizenship is my passport.

    With a driver's license or SSN, it's auditable. Both documents require >presenting a birth certificate (or as I explained about Enumeration At
    Birth, there is a combined application for birth certificate and SSN).
    That makes it a rudimentary citizenship check for those born in the US.

    So stupid question - how long have they been able to audit these?
    Point of my question is that my mother was never an American though
    she lived in the US for 6-7 years (first in her school days then when
    my father was in grad school - which included infant me) and
    defniitely had a California driver's licence. Similarly when we later
    moved to Vancouver my father had a driver's licence for years and
    didn't take Canadian citizenship till I was in 11th grade. (By which
    time he had been living in Canada for 10+ years)

    (In other words we're mostly talking 1955-70)
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  • From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Sat Jun 20 03:12:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:28:49 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    I wouldn't even use a driver's license to prove residence. Instead, if a >person must prove his residence for a government program like a driver's >license, he gets put into a state database that the DL then draws from.
    Then that database can be used for other programs requiring proof of >residency like voter registration.

    No, nothing is perfect, but if the voter registrar performs the DL or
    SSN check per Motor Voter, which California clearly does not do, then
    nearly the entire problem BTR1701 identified is eliminated. With that
    kind of checks, the handful of noncitizens registered to vote won't
    affect any ekection outcome.

    Thanks for the info - I confess I've wondered about US election
    practices for years - and how the US manages to do all that under 50
    separate sets of rules.

    (Whereas Canadian federal and provincial elections are held at
    different times and the federal government and each of the 10
    provinces have their own election bureaus managing things. I've
    especially wondered about the US Federal government whose elections
    are handled at the state level often under different rules - in
    particular I do think allowing mail in votes are just PLEADING for
    electoral fraud)

    And I have voted in all but one election that I've been registered for
    - that one exception was a provincial election where I was making an inter-provincial move 3 weeks after election day so I figured that I
    shouldn't vote in an election where I wouldn't be living there for
    98+% of the elected candidates' terms
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  • From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Sat Jun 20 03:15:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:28:49 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Wait. What? Passport is absolutely 100% proof of citizenship. In foreign >travel, the traveller is presenting an identity document proving
    citizenship.

    I'm pretty sure I saw both my father's US and Canadian passports - and
    that he got his first Canadian passport well before his
    naturalization. (My father was raised in an area of Washingon state
    much closer to Vancouver than Seattle - he went to college in Seattle
    and grad studies in San Francisco (but that's only two years of his
    life)
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  • From Adam H. Kerman@ahk@chinet.com to rec.arts.tv on Sat Jun 20 15:10:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
    Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:28:49 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    In what jurisdictions do driver's licences show citizenship? As far as
    I know the ONLY document I own showing my citizenship is my passport.

    With a driver's license or SSN, it's auditable. Both documents require >>presenting a birth certificate (or as I explained about Enumeration At >>Birth, there is a combined application for birth certificate and SSN).
    That makes it a rudimentary citizenship check for those born in the US.

    So stupid question - how long have they been able to audit these?

    Since forever? These databases should be reviewed every so often by
    chossing specific records at random and tracking back to original
    documents presented.

    Point of my question is that my mother was never an American though
    she lived in the US for 6-7 years (first in her school days then when
    my father was in grad school - which included infant me) and
    defniitely had a California driver's licence. Similarly when we later
    moved to Vancouver my father had a driver's licence for years and
    didn't take Canadian citizenship till I was in 11th grade. (By which
    time he had been living in Canada for 10+ years)

    (In other words we're mostly talking 1955-70)

    You don't present a birth certificate to register to vote to prove your
    age, but you absolutely do when applying for a driver's license. That's
    why the driver's license is a rudimentary citizenship check because it's
    got a copy of the birth certificate, so adequate for someone born in the
    United States purporting to be a citizen for voter registration purposes.
    It's inadequate to issue a passport.
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  • From Adam H. Kerman@ahk@chinet.com to rec.arts.tv on Sat Jun 20 15:15:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
    Tue, 16 Jun 2026 17:28:49 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    Wait. What? Passport is absolutely 100% proof of citizenship. In foreign >>travel, the traveller is presenting an identity document proving >>citizenship.

    I'm pretty sure I saw both my father's US and Canadian passports - and
    that he got his first Canadian passport well before his
    naturalization. (My father was raised in an area of Washingon state
    much closer to Vancouver than Seattle - he went to college in Seattle
    and grad studies in San Francisco (but that's only two years of his
    life)

    If your father was able to travel internationally on a Canadian passport
    issued before he was naturalized, then I'm sure the passport disclaimed Canadian citizenship. I don't know the rules on what categories of
    noncitizens may be issued passports.

    But if a Canadian citizen presents a passport that doesn't disclaim
    Canadian citizenship, then that document is proof of citizenship. It is
    the passport's primary purpose.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jun 21 19:17:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Sat, 20 Jun 2026 15:15:48 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:


    I'm pretty sure I saw both my father's US and Canadian passports - and
    that he got his first Canadian passport well before his
    naturalization. (My father was raised in an area of Washingon state
    much closer to Vancouver than Seattle - he went to college in Seattle
    and grad studies in San Francisco (but that's only two years of his
    life)

    If your father was able to travel internationally on a Canadian passport >issued before he was naturalized, then I'm sure the passport disclaimed >Canadian citizenship. I don't know the rules on what categories of >noncitizens may be issued passports.

    But if a Canadian citizen presents a passport that doesn't disclaim
    Canadian citizenship, then that document is proof of citizenship. It is
    the passport's primary purpose.

    I'm pretty sure that was the case though he had a BC driver's licence
    long before his naturalization. I'm pretty sure permanent residents
    (the term in his day was 'landed immigrant') are/were eligible for
    Canadian passports but otherwise just citizens.

    I just checked my passport and it DOES have a line saying
    "Nationality" with Canadian right below it so that's probably the line
    I was thinking about. As I say he naturalized when I was in 10th or
    11th grade so it's been awhile.
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  • From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Sun Jun 21 21:25:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Sat, 20 Jun 2026 15:10:24 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
    <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

    You don't present a birth certificate to register to vote to prove your
    age, but you absolutely do when applying for a driver's license. That's
    why the driver's license is a rudimentary citizenship check because it's
    got a copy of the birth certificate, so adequate for someone born in the >United States purporting to be a citizen for voter registration purposes. >It's inadequate to issue a passport.

    I think I did have to bring my birth certificate (which I don't even
    know where it is now - but I know where my passport is and had it open
    to the proper page on my previous posting) but Ottawa has that info in
    a zillion places already which isn't as obvious as it sounds since
    "vital statistics" is a provincial matter in Canada.

    I probably had to show proof of age when I first registered to vote
    but that's a very long time ago now. (As I say Canada has separate
    federal and provincial voters list with each government controlling
    voting at their level so while the rules are different between the two
    levels they're internally consistent and municipal elections just use
    the provincial list)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BTR1701@atropos@mac.com to rec.arts.tv on Tue Jun 23 20:58:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Jun 16, 2026 at 12:26:26 AM PDT, "The Horny Goat" <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

    On Tue, 9 Jun 2026 18:20:21 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

    For many years, Canadian federal elections were decided within 10
    MINUTES of the polls closing in Ontario. If the Liberals or
    Conservatives had enough votes by the time polls closed in Ontario, the
    networks would declare the election and essentially stop coverage -
    aside from analysis - because the outcome was inevitable. This REALLY
    pissed off Western Canada so they finally staggered when the polls
    closed and now maintain coverage until the last votes from BC have been
    counted. I expect that's roughly 10 minutes after the polls close in BC
    but Horny Goat would know much more about this than I do.

    As Rhino says - I'm on the west coast whereas he's in Ontario 3 time
    zones away.

    He's mistaken on saying they delay announcing votes until the votes on
    the west coast have been counted BUT staggering polling times was a
    move made by Pierre Trudeau in is last term of office and in my view
    is one of the few "win win" things he did since after the voting times
    were changed, the polls closed on the west coast 1 1/2 hours after tey
    closed on the east coast which meant abominations like 1980 didn't
    take place which is where the national result was announced 10 minutes
    after the polls closed on the west coast.

    I was a party representative at our station and we were counting votes
    when the guy from the other party left the counting room to make a
    phone call then when one of our team told him that our party had 75+%
    of the votes he said he didn't care as his party had already gotten a majority nationally.

    Staggering voting times was a huge plus as when else can a politician
    improve national unity while not spending a nickel in the budget?

    The country of Colombia just held their elections and they counted 99.8% of their 25+ million ballots in under three hours. Meanwhile, Los Angeles still hasn't been able to deliver a final count in the mayoral election involving only 875,000 ballots.

    Nothing shady going on there. Move along. Nothing to see here.


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From The Horny Goat@lcraver@home.ca to rec.arts.tv on Fri Jun 26 10:42:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.tv

    On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 20:58:24 -0000 (UTC), BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com>
    wrote:


    The country of Colombia just held their elections and they counted 99.8% of >their 25+ million ballots in under three hours. Meanwhile, Los Angeles still >hasn't been able to deliver a final count in the mayoral election involving >only 875,000 ballots.

    Did Columbia hand count all ballots?

    Reason I ask is that when I was counting votes there were 7 or 8 of us
    at each table and the poll clerk kept each box locked until we were
    ready. We were given a stack of votes and unfolded each creating a
    small stack for each candidate then counting them. When each stack of
    ballots was counting we moved the to the person next to us and by the
    time each of us were done all of us had counted every vote. The poll
    clerk then filled in a 1 page report with the result of each
    candidate. We had 4 or 5 ballot boxes per table to count and got it
    all done in under 2 hours and when we were done the clerk got us to
    load the boxes into her car which she then delivered to the voting
    district HQ. Not sure whether they transcribed each into a spreadsheet
    or not (I did the 1979 and 1980 which was the days of Visicalc and MS
    Office 1.0 so they could have though I'm certain they do now)

    My whole point is that our part of the job took 2-3 hours and if you
    give them an hour to get the physical ballots to HQ that's 4 hours -
    it's just not that complicated to do an all manual ballot (e.g.
    without voting machines)
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