• Re: [OT] Is the UK turning into China?

    From danny burstein@dannyb@panix.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Mon Jun 15 20:14:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    [adding rasw to the mix]

    [snip]
    As I understand it, the Chinese police have massive databases of
    absolutely everyone which presumably also note the name and heritage of
    everyone in the system.

    All 1.5 billion of them? Now thatrCOs scary.

    I've seen a number of claims in recent months that China's population
    isn't actually nearly as big as it claims; some say the population is
    only HALF of 1.5 billion. I don't know how credible the claims are though.

    Brings to mind the snippet in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel... He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight infrastructure
    it couldn't be more than two million.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...
    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
    dannyb@panix.com
    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rhino@no_offline_contact@example.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Mon Jun 15 17:12:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    [snip]
    As I understand it, the Chinese police have massive databases of
    absolutely everyone which presumably also note the name and heritage of >>>> everyone in the system.

    All 1.5 billion of them? Now thatrCOs scary.

    I've seen a number of claims in recent months that China's population
    isn't actually nearly as big as it claims; some say the population is
    only HALF of 1.5 billion. I don't know how credible the claims are though.

    Brings to mind the snippet in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel...

    Not a biographical novel really, just a collection of some of his
    earlier work and various essays he'd written stitched together with some
    new commentary into a book called Expanded Universe.

    He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight infrastructure
    it couldn't be more than two million.

    I'm looking at the relevant page and he says the official population is
    5 million but he and his wife agree there are no more than 750,000
    people there.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...


    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.
    --
    Rhino
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From danny burstein@dannyb@panix.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Mon Jun 15 23:23:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    In <110ppsl$jlbk$2@dont-email.me> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> writes:
    only HALF of 1.5 billion. I don't know how credible the claims are though. >>
    Brings to mind the snippet in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel...

    Not a biographical novel really, just a collection of some of his
    earlier work and various essays he'd written stitched together with some
    new commentary into a book called Expanded Universe.

    Thanks. I, umm, think I know where my copy is...
    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
    dannyb@panix.com
    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BobbieSellers@bliss-sf4ever@dslextremeinvalid.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Mon Jun 15 16:46:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/15/26 14:12, Rhino wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    [snip]
    As I understand it, the Chinese police have massive databases of
    absolutely everyone which presumably also note the name and
    heritage of
    everyone in the system.

    All 1.5 billion of them? Now thatrCOs scary.

    I've seen a number of claims in recent months that China's population
    isn't actually nearly as big as it claims; some say the population is
    only HALF of 1.5 billion. I don't know how credible the claims are
    though.

    Brings to mind the snippet in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel...

    Not a biographical novel really, just a collection of some of his
    earlier work and various essays he'd written stitched together with some
    new commentary into a book called Expanded Universe.

    He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight infrastructure
    it couldn't be more than two million.

    I'm looking at the relevant page and he says the official population is
    5 million but he and his wife agree there are no more than 750,000
    people there.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...


    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.


    Simple! It is a diplomatic courtesy to accept the
    lies nations tell each other. Hangover from the age of
    Kings where not to do so is les majesty and you do not
    want to tell the king or a sovereign state that they
    are lying.

    bliss
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Mon Jun 15 20:56:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/15/26 19:46, BobbieSellers wrote:
    -a-a-a-aSimple! It is a diplomatic courtesy to accept the
    -alies nations tell each other. Hangover from the age of
    -a Kings where not to do so is les majesty and you do not
    -a want to tell the king or a sovereign state that they
    -a are lying.

    I suspect that this is not as true today.
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Super Callous Fragile Racist Sexist Lying POTUS -anonymous sign
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nyssa@Nyssa@logicalinsight.net to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Tue Jun 16 10:30:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    [snip]
    As I understand it, the Chinese police have massive
    databases of absolutely everyone which presumably also
    note the name and heritage of everyone in the system.

    All 1.5 billion of them? Now thatrCOs scary.

    I've seen a number of claims in recent months that China's
    population isn't actually nearly as big as it claims; some
    say the population is only HALF of 1.5 billion. I don't
    know how credible the claims are though.

    Brings to mind the snippet in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel... He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight
    infrastructure it couldn't be more than two million.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...


    During that discussion, his wife Ginny (who was acting as
    translator while in the USSR), noted that the population
    they had wasn't even replacing itself. And we know the long
    term problems with that as noted in other posts in this
    thread (including my own).
    Nyssa, who remembers back when Usenet was more populated
    as well and Ginny Heinlein often participated in threads
    on the Heinlein fan newsgroups
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Graham@zotzlists@gmail.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 11:28:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 15/06/2026 21:14, danny burstein wrote:

    in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel... He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight infrastructure
    it couldn't be more than two million.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    There was research on the validity on Soviet statistics at the time,
    and I'm sure a lot more has been done since the wall came down. I don't,
    from a very brief glance, see any reference to the population levels
    being wildly distorted - as opposed to things like infant mortality rates.

    Still, ignoring experts is an established tradition nearly everywhere.


    G.
    -- 12345678902234567890323456789042345678905234567890623456789072345678908234567890
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Dimensional Traveler@dtravel@sonic.net to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 06:40:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/17/2026 3:28 AM, Graham wrote:
    On 15/06/2026 21:14, danny burstein wrote:

    in Robert A Heinlein's, umm,
    some biographical novel...-a He mentions how the official
    population of Moscow was (number dredged from memory so
    don't hold me to this semi-reference) five million, but
    when he thought about the transportation/freight infrastructure
    it couldn't be more than two million.

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    -a There was research on the validity on Soviet statistics at the time,
    and I'm sure a lot more has been done since the wall came down. I don't,
    from a very brief glance, see any reference to the population levels
    being wildly distorted - as opposed to things like infant mortality rates.

    -a Still, ignoring experts is an established tradition nearly everywhere.

    Or it could just be that the Soviet Union was not as densely developed
    as the US and much of Europe were, suffering from shortages and
    insufficient infrastructure....
    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From quadibloc@quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 17:26:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed, would be that the U.S. would not wish to
    disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    John Savard
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 15:27:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/17/26 13:26, John Savard wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed, would be that the U.S. would not wish to disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    Sort of like why after Enigma was cracked, Britain had to be very
    careful about how they were supposed to know about planned attacks,
    etc., because if Germany knew Enigma had been cracked, they would change it.

    I believe they set up some fake radar posts that every once in a while
    just "happened" to be pointed in the right direction to detect planes
    that they knew would be there, as a plausible way to claim knowledge,
    but also that they accepted certain tactical losses by *not* acting on
    the information they had.
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Super Callous Fragile Racist Sexist Lying POTUS -anonymous sign
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From William Hyde@wthyde1953@gmail.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 15:44:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    John Savard wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed,


    I'm glad to see someone showing a bit of doubt.

    The most obvious answer is that RAH was wrong. He had no expertise in
    this area and I suspect that at best, he applied American norms to
    Russian reality.

    At worst wishful thinking took over.


    would be that the U.S. would not wish to
    disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    If a retired engineer could crack it, it wasn't much of a secret.



    William Hyde

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BTR1701@atropos@mac.com to rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.tv on Wed Jun 17 21:49:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On Jun 17, 2026 at 12:27:33 PM PDT, ""Evelyn C. Leeper"" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 6/17/26 13:26, John Savard wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed, would be that the U.S. would not wish to
    disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    Sort of like why after Enigma was cracked, Britain had to be very
    careful about how they were supposed to know about planned attacks,
    etc., because if Germany knew Enigma had been cracked, they would change it.

    Enigma is the classic example that illustrates the Catch-22 of intelligence gathering. If you use the intel, then the enemy will nullify your advantage, but if you don't use the intel, then gathering it and having it becomes a pointless exercise.


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From kludge@kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 18:26:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
    Or it could just be that the Soviet Union was not as densely developed
    as the US and much of Europe were, suffering from shortages and
    insufficient infrastructure....

    The Soviets had a planned economy, so that quotas and allocations were dependent on local statistics including population statistics. This
    being the case, it was usually in the interest of local authorities to
    feed bad numbers to the central planning commission. As a result, any
    Soviet statistics had to be taken with a huge grain of salt, even things
    that seemed innocuous.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BobbieSellers@bliss-sf4ever@dslextremeinvalid.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 16:00:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/17/26 12:27, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
    On 6/17/26 13:26, John Savard wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed, would be that the U.S. would not wish to
    disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    Sort of like why after Enigma was cracked, Britain had to be very
    careful about how they were supposed to know about planned attacks,
    etc., because if Germany knew Enigma had been cracked, they would change
    it.

    I believe they set up some fake radar posts that every once in a while
    just "happened" to be pointed in the right direction to detect planes
    that they knew would be there, as a plausible way to claim knowledge,
    but also that they accepted certain tactical losses by *not* acting on
    the information they had.


    The difference between acquiring Intelligence and applying
    that information in an Intelligent manner. Also the intelligence
    they were acquiring might be useless if the enemies determined
    that their plans were known. Sadly they could not use the
    information to save a lot of lives.

    Peter Thiel of intrusive surveillance fame has
    Citizenship in New Zealand, acquired a mansion in Argentina,
    and a few other places. <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/6/17/800051412/community/peter-thiel-part-11-a-mansion-in-argentina-is-palantir-to-follow/>


    bliss
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  • From Dimensional Traveler@dtravel@sonic.net to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Wed Jun 17 17:25:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/17/2026 3:26 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
    Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
    Or it could just be that the Soviet Union was not as densely developed
    as the US and much of Europe were, suffering from shortages and
    insufficient infrastructure....

    The Soviets had a planned economy, so that quotas and allocations were dependent on local statistics including population statistics. This
    being the case, it was usually in the interest of local authorities to
    feed bad numbers to the central planning commission. As a result, any
    Soviet statistics had to be taken with a huge grain of salt, even things
    that seemed innocuous.
    --scott

    Or, ya, it could have just been corruption. :P
    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.tv,rec.arts.sf.written on Thu Jun 18 07:37:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.written

    On 6/17/26 19:00, BobbieSellers wrote:
    On 6/17/26 12:27, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
    On 6/17/26 13:26, John Savard wrote:
    On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 17:12:52 -0400, Rhino
    <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
    On 2026-06-15 4:14 p.m., danny burstein wrote:
    [adding rasw to the mix]

    And.. he added, he discussed this with a spook friend
    of his who got whistful, visualized the rail lines, etc.,
    and agreed with him.

    Which led to RAH wondering just why the US went along
    with this fiction...

    An interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

    The most obvious possible answer, if indeed Moscow's population was
    less than officially claimed, would be that the U.S. would not wish to
    disclose to the Soviet Union that its intelligence agencies knew the
    truth.

    Sort of like why after Enigma was cracked, Britain had to be very
    careful about how they were supposed to know about planned attacks,
    etc., because if Germany knew Enigma had been cracked, they would
    change it.

    I believe they set up some fake radar posts that every once in a while
    just "happened" to be pointed in the right direction to detect planes
    that they knew would be there, as a plausible way to claim knowledge,
    but also that they accepted certain tactical losses by *not* acting on
    the information they had.


    -a-a-a-aThe difference between acquiring Intelligence and applying
    that information in an Intelligent manner. Also the intelligence
    they were acquiring might be useless if the enemies determined
    that their plans were known.-a Sadly they could not use the
    information to save a lot of lives.

    Let me rephrase that last sentence, because it doesn't say what I think
    you meant:

    Sadly, they still had to sacrifice many lives that they could have saved
    with the information.

    (Because they actually did use the in formation to save a lot of lives,
    just not all of them.)
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Super Callous Fragile Racist Sexist Lying POTUS -anonymous sign
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2