A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
On 5/6/2026 2:55 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
"Stranger In A Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein.
Lynn
On 5/6/26 12:17, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 5/6/2026 2:55 AM, Charles Packer wrote:-a-a-a-aNot manufacturing but obliterating a Messiah in 'Odd John'.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in
SF along these lines?
"Stranger In A Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein.
Lynn
In article <pan$6161e$6b2830d3$94419ca1$eac514cc@cpacker.org>,
Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in SF along these lines?
Bene Gesserit?
On 6 May 2026 12:33:52 GMT, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
In article <pan$6161e$6b2830d3$94419ca1$eac514cc@cpacker.org>,
Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in SF along these lines?
Bene Gesserit?
This seems to have the same key elements: a secret society with
a long time horizon. A plan to improve humanity through the agency
of a special person whose destiny would be defined by the society.
Said person would be led to that destiny starting in childhood.
I've never read/seen Dune but I've read a lot about it in
reviews and other newspaper coverage. I can't remember these
plot elements being mentioned as such.
-a-a-a-aPaul Atrides (sic) later to be known a Muad D'ib as the leader
-a-a of the Fremen has been trained from childhood by the order of
-a-a the Bene Gesserit to be a leader and has mastered the voice of
-a-a command.-a One of the main scenes at the beginning of the story
-a-a is his test by the Bene Gesserit which consists of endurance of
-a-a pain.-a His parents are murdered by assassins of a rival house
-a-a after the planet is ceded to House Atrides.-a He escapes to the
-a-a Desert where by passing tests he becomes the leader of the
-a-a Fremen tribes.-a When sufficient force is available he overthrows
-a-a-a the rival house.-a Dune itself and the Sandworms native to the
-a-a planet are the source of the Spice which is a drug that enables
-a-a the Navigation guild to translocate from one useful place to
-a-a another but in the process muitates the users to giant inhuman
-a-a-a beings which must be moved about in environmental chambers. -a-a-a-aPaul uses the Spice and eventually as the Navigators are, is
-a-a-a mutated to the form of a Sandworm in the later books. I
-a-a-a actually have not read the later volumes as it seems like
-a-a-a it is too fantastic for my taste at my age.
-a-a-a-aLots of good text exploring the Desert planet Dune and
-a-a trying to make it more human friendly which restricts the
-a-a production of the Spice. Lots of interesting characters
-a-a including the degenerates of the rival house.
-a-a-a-aIt made a couple of movies which did not capture
-a-a the original story very well.
-a-a-a-a-a-a I hope you will read at least the first couple of books
-a-a in the sage of Dune.-a Read parts of the story published
-a-a as a serial in the late 1950s in Astounding SF magazine,
-a-a-a to the best of my recollection.
-a-a-a Later in the states caught up with it a bit in book form.
-a-a-a-a
-a-a-a-abliss
On 08/05/2026 15:54, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
snip
-a-a-a-aPaul Atrides (sic) later to be known a Muad D'ib as the leader
-a-a of the Fremen has been trained from childhood by the order of
-a-a the Bene Gesserit to be a leader and has mastered the voice of
-a-a command.-a One of the main scenes at the beginning of the story
-a-a is his test by the Bene Gesserit which consists of endurance of
-a-a pain.-a His parents are murdered by assassins of a rival house
-a-a after the planet is ceded to House Atrides.-a He escapes to the
-a-a Desert where by passing tests he becomes the leader of the
-a-a Fremen tribes.-a When sufficient force is available he overthrows
-a-a-a the rival house.-a Dune itself and the Sandworms native to the
-a-a planet are the source of the Spice which is a drug that enables
-a-a the Navigation guild to translocate from one useful place to
-a-a another but in the process muitates the users to giant inhuman
-a-a-a beings which must be moved about in environmental chambers.
-a-a-a-aPaul uses the Spice and eventually as the Navigators are, is
-a-a-a mutated to the form of a Sandworm in the later books. I
-a-a-a actually have not read the later volumes as it seems like
-a-a-a it is too fantastic for my taste at my age.
-a-a-a-aLots of good text exploring the Desert planet Dune and
-a-a trying to make it more human friendly which restricts the
-a-a production of the Spice. Lots of interesting characters
-a-a including the degenerates of the rival house.
-a-a-a-aIt made a couple of movies which did not capture
-a-a the original story very well.
-a-a-a-a-a-a I hope you will read at least the first couple of books
-a-a in the sage of Dune.-a Read parts of the story published
-a-a as a serial in the late 1950s in Astounding SF magazine,
-a-a-a to the best of my recollection.
-a-a-a Later in the states caught up with it a bit in book form.
-a-a-a-abliss
Nice summary. Dune was one of my three, five star Herbert reads, the
others being Hellstrom's Hive and The Dosadi Experiment. I have now
forgotten the second book, Dune Messiah, which I rated three stars
because there was too much angst and nowhere near the action of Dune. I haven't had the interest to begin the third. I am in a minority here
because I enjoyed the first movie immensely and still vividly remember
the scenes where Paul is tested with the unmanned AI knife and Harkonnen removing heart plugs from his slaves when displeased.
On 6 May 2026 12:33:52 GMT, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:The Bene Gesserit were running a breeding program to produce the
In article <pan$6161e$6b2830d3$94419ca1$eac514cc@cpacker.org>,
Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2026 13:32:10 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:
A Mirror For Observers by Edgar Pangborn
Aliens contend over the fate of a remarkable boy.
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/be-my-mirror
Manufacturing a messiah? Is there anything else in SF along these lines?
Bene Gesserit?
This seems to have the same key elements: a secret society with
a long time horizon. A plan to improve humanity through the agency
of a special person whose destiny would be defined by the society.
Said person would be led to that destiny starting in childhood.
I've never read/seen Dune but I've read a lot about it in
reviews and other newspaper coverage. I can't remember these
plot elements being mentioned as such.
Nice summary. Dune was one of my three, five star Herbert reads, the
others being Hellstrom's Hive and The Dosadi Experiment. I have now
forgotten the second book, Dune Messiah, which I rated three stars
because there was too much angst and nowhere near the action of Dune. I haven't had the interest to begin the third.
Titus G wrote:
Nice summary. Dune was one of my three, five star Herbert reads, the
others being Hellstrom's Hive and The Dosadi Experiment. I have now
forgotten the second book, Dune Messiah, which I rated three stars
because there was too much angst and nowhere near the action of Dune. I
haven't had the interest to begin the third.
My sister read the entire series and gave me the books afterwards.-a I
recall the third book as being more enjoyable than DM, but afterwards
the fall in quality was steep.-a I had to force myself through the last
book.
Admittedly, I do tend to be a bit harsh when a series falls in quality
and tend to reevaluate things on a reread.-a But here there will be no reread, except possibly of book three, if I ever stumble across my copy.
William Hyde
On 10/05/2026 08:08, William Hyde wrote:
Titus G wrote:
Nice summary. Dune was one of my three, five star Herbert reads, the
others being Hellstrom's Hive and The Dosadi Experiment. I have now
forgotten the second book, Dune Messiah, which I rated three stars
because there was too much angst and nowhere near the action of Dune. I
haven't had the interest to begin the third.
My sister read the entire series and gave me the books afterwards.-a I
recall the third book as being more enjoyable than DM, but afterwards
the fall in quality was steep.-a I had to force myself through the last
book.
Whilst I respect your opinion being still slightly gobsmacked by
Robertson Davies, I am content to restrict my Herbert reading to rereads.
For nothing less than serious money will I reread dune four and beyond. >These works are strictly for completists, or those who are utterlyAt some point, the State of Washington realized it had a very
smitten with that universe.
I see that I have one of his lesser novels, "The Santaroga Barrier" to--
hand. I recall it as slightly Simakian, and it might be worth a try.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 14:51:48 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo: Dune novels>
For nothing less than serious money will I reread dune four and beyond. >>These works are strictly for completists, or those who are utterly
smitten with that universe.
At some point, the State of Washington realized it had a very
successful SF Author residing in it and came to collect the business
taxes owed. This prompted Herbert to continue writing to get money to
pay the State. But that only explains some of the novels.
IIRC, the other later ones were "completed" by someone else after
Herbert died.
IOW, they existed (if at all) as partly done at best, and perhaps as >outlines.
In a way, it's a pity. I was hoping for an explanation of the Honored
Matres [1].
On Tue, 12 May 2026 08:42:58 -0700, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert), when doing his world-building for the original Dune, needed some explanation for why
On Mon, 11 May 2026 14:51:48 -0400, William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo: Dune novels>
For nothing less than serious money will I reread dune four and beyond. >>>These works are strictly for completists, or those who are utterly >>>smitten with that universe.
At some point, the State of Washington realized it had a very
successful SF Author residing in it and came to collect the business
taxes owed. This prompted Herbert to continue writing to get money to
pay the State. But that only explains some of the novels.
IIRC, the other later ones were "completed" by someone else after
Herbert died.
IOW, they existed (if at all) as partly done at best, and perhaps as >>outlines.
In a way, it's a pity. I was hoping for an explanation of the Honored >>Matres [1].
Has there ever been a believable explanation for the Butlerian Jihad?
I recall the Dune Encyclopedia made the trigger an AI doctor aborting
the fetus of a woman named Butler (where I'd previous assumed it was a reference to the works of Samuel Butler). The extended version of the
Lynch movie came up with another version (which has mercifully escaped
me).
Neither seemed to warrant a humanity-wide revulsion of AI, so I wonder
if Herbert (the One True Herbert - I've not read any of the spinoffs)
had something more convincing in mind - not that we'll ever know.
My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert), when doing his >world-building for the original Dune, needed some explanation for whyThat would be my guess as well.
there were "mentats" and not intelligent computers in his universe, and >invented a "jihad against thinking machines" as a background, without >thinking a whole lot about the backstory.
Later, when Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson started writing all the >pre-quels to the Dune story (which are absolute garbage, IMHO) they hadI was pleasantly unaware of /prequels/ until I read this.
to come up with details about the "Butlerian Jihad" and the >Harkonnen-Atreides feud and how the Bene Gesserit got started, and all
that. I tried reading some the prequels and just bounced off as
unbelievable and badly written too.
What I would like to know is the origin story of Arrakis itself. I thinkThat it had not always been a desert world -- maybe, it stirs
it was mentioned somewhere in the original books (maybe in some part
about the planetologist Liet Kynes) that Arrakis was not always a desert >world, and that the sandworms had been introduced from somewhere else?
Does anyone remember that?
On Tue, 12 May 2026 13:34:50 -0700, Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
<snippo: the later Dune books>
My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert), when doing his
world-building for the original Dune, needed some explanation for why
there were "mentats" and not intelligent computers in his universe, and
invented a "jihad against thinking machines" as a background, without
thinking a whole lot about the backstory.
That would be my guess as well.
Later, when Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson started writing all the
pre-quels to the Dune story (which are absolute garbage, IMHO) they had
to come up with details about the "Butlerian Jihad" and the
Harkonnen-Atreides feud and how the Bene Gesserit got started, and all
that. I tried reading some the prequels and just bounced off as
unbelievable and badly written too.
I was pleasantly unaware of /prequels/ until I read this.
I think I will remain blissfully ignorant of them.
What I would like to know is the origin story of Arrakis itself. I think
it was mentioned somewhere in the original books (maybe in some part
about the planetologist Liet Kynes) that Arrakis was not always a desert
world, and that the sandworms had been introduced from somewhere else?
Does anyone remember that?
That it had not always been a desert world -- maybe, it stirs
something deep in what I like to call my mind.
But not that sandworms were introduced. But it's been a long time
since I read the novel, so that isn't a definitive answer.
I /do/ remember the History of the Fremen including a stay on the
Prison Planet (Salusa Secundus) before coming to Arrakis.
I also remember Campbell writing that the science which made /Dune/
(well, the first half -- in the magazine it was in two serialized
novels) was some newfangled thing called "ecology".
Not politics. Not human breeding programs. Not travel without moving. Ecology.
On Tue, 12 May 2026 13:34:50 -0700, Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
<snippo: the later Dune books>
My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert), when doing his
world-building for the original Dune, needed some explanation for why
there were "mentats" and not intelligent computers in his universe, and
invented a "jihad against thinking machines" as a background, without
thinking a whole lot about the backstory.
That would be my guess as well.
Later, when Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson started writing all the
pre-quels to the Dune story (which are absolute garbage, IMHO) they had
to come up with details about the "Butlerian Jihad" and the
Harkonnen-Atreides feud and how the Bene Gesserit got started, and all
that. I tried reading some the prequels and just bounced off as
unbelievable and badly written too.
I was pleasantly unaware of /prequels/ until I read this.
I think I will remain blissfully ignorant of them.
What I would like to know is the origin story of Arrakis itself. I think
it was mentioned somewhere in the original books (maybe in some part
about the planetologist Liet Kynes) that Arrakis was not always a desert
world, and that the sandworms had been introduced from somewhere else?
Does anyone remember that?
That it had not always been a desert world -- maybe, it stirs
something deep in what I like to call my mind.
But not that sandworms were introduced. But it's been a long time
since I read the novel, so that isn't a definitive answer.
I /do/ remember the History of the Fremen including a stay on the
Prison Planet (Salusa Secundus) before coming to Arrakis.
I also remember Campbell writing that the science which made /Dune/
(well, the first half -- in the magazine it was in two serialized
novels) was some newfangled thing called "ecology".
Not politics. Not human breeding programs. Not travel without moving. Ecology.
My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert),
Later, when Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson started writing all the pre-quels to the Dune story
Titus G wrote:
On 10/05/2026 08:08, William Hyde wrote:
Titus G wrote:
Nice summary. Dune was one of my three, five star Herbert reads, the
others being Hellstrom's Hive and The Dosadi Experiment. I have now
forgotten the second book, Dune Messiah, which I rated three stars
because there was too much angst and nowhere near the action of Dune. I >>>> haven't had the interest to begin the third.
My sister read the entire series and gave me the books afterwards.-a I
recall the third book as being more enjoyable than DM, but afterwards
the fall in quality was steep.-a I had to force myself through the last
book.
Whilst I respect your opinion being still slightly gobsmacked by
Robertson Davies, I am content to restrict my Herbert reading to rereads.
For nothing less than serious money will I reread dune four and beyond.
These works are strictly for completists, or those who are utterly
smitten with that universe.
I see that I have one of his lesser novels, "The Santaroga Barrier" to hand.-a I recall it as slightly Simakian, and it might be worth a try.
On 5/13/26 08:52, Paul S Person wrote:And they were. Both on Leto II (literally) and elsewhere (albeit much
On Tue, 12 May 2026 13:34:50 -0700, Don_from_AZ
<djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
<snippo: the later Dune books>
My guess is that Frank Herbert (the One True Herbert), when doing his
world-building for the original Dune, needed some explanation for why
there were "mentats" and not intelligent computers in his universe, and
invented a "jihad against thinking machines" as a background, without
thinking a whole lot about the backstory.
That would be my guess as well.
Later, when Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson started writing all the
pre-quels to the Dune story (which are absolute garbage, IMHO) they had
to come up with details about the "Butlerian Jihad" and the
Harkonnen-Atreides feud and how the Bene Gesserit got started, and all
that. I tried reading some the prequels and just bounced off as
unbelievable and badly written too.
I was pleasantly unaware of /prequels/ until I read this.
I think I will remain blissfully ignorant of them.
What I would like to know is the origin story of Arrakis itself. I think >>> it was mentioned somewhere in the original books (maybe in some part
about the planetologist Liet Kynes) that Arrakis was not always a desert >>> world, and that the sandworms had been introduced from somewhere else?
Does anyone remember that?
That it had not always been a desert world -- maybe, it stirs
something deep in what I like to call my mind.
But not that sandworms were introduced. But it's been a long time
since I read the novel, so that isn't a definitive answer.
I /do/ remember the History of the Fremen including a stay on the
Prison Planet (Salusa Secundus) before coming to Arrakis.
I also remember Campbell writing that the science which made /Dune/
(well, the first half -- in the magazine it was in two serialized
novels) was some newfangled thing called "ecology".
Not politics. Not human breeding programs. Not travel without moving.
Ecology.
Along the path of the serial novels Dune is turned into a normal world with
rainfall etc. Sand worms have to be protected.
On 5/13/2026 11:52 AM, Paul S Person wrote:<snippo Dune stuff>
Well, the simplicity made it easier to explain to the readers, noI also remember Campbell writing that the science which made /Dune/
(well, the first half -- in the magazine it was in two serialized
novels) was some newfangled thing called "ecology".
Not politics. Not human breeding programs. Not travel without moving.
Ecology.
I remember one commentator on 'Dune is an amazing ecological parable' >pointing out that Arrakis is an ecology with only 3 moving parts.
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