• MT VOID, 08/21/26 -- Vol. 45, No. 8, Whole Number 2446

    From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Sun Aug 23 09:25:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    THE MT VOID
    08/21/26 -- Vol. 45, No. 8, Whole Number 2446

    Editor: Evelyn Leeper, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com
    All material is the opinion of the author and is copyrighted by
    the author unless otherwise noted.
    All comments sent or posted will be assumed authorized for
    inclusion unless otherwise noted.

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    evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com
    The latest issue is at <http://www.leepers.us/mtvoid/latest.htm>.
    An index with links to the issues of the MT VOID since 1986 is at <http://leepers.us/mtvoid/back_issues.htm>.

    Topics:

    Steam-Driven Card Punches (comments by Mark R. Leeper)
    PRECIOUS CHILDREN by Mary G. Thompson (book review
    by Joe Karpierz)
    Pardoning Power and Term Limits (letters of comment
    by Gary McGath, Lawrence D'Oliveiro,
    and Keith F. Lynch)
    Subtitling vs. Dubbing (letter of comment
    by Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
    GOSFORD PARK (letter of comment by Peter Trei)
    This Week's Reading (THE WRITER'S GUIDE TO EVERYDAY LIFE
    IN THE 1800S; A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ANCIENT ROME;
    A ROME OF ONE'S OWN; APES, ANGELS, AND VICTORIANS)
    (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Steam-Driven Card Punches (comments by Mark R. Leeper)

    [Our Supreme Leader has decided that aircraft carrier launch
    systems should revert from the current Electromagnetic Aircraft
    Launch System to steam-powered catapults and hydraulic elevators.
    As usual Mark was well ahead of that curve, in this editorial from
    the 09/07/1990 MT VOID. -ecl]

    Right here in the science fiction notice we can see in microcosm
    the sort of revolution that is taking hold of computing in
    general. We offer the MT VOID in two flavors. You can get it
    either on-line or you can get a paper copy. Now if the trend
    toward the paperless office were real, you would think people
    would flock to getting the on-line version, but that is really not
    the case. People seem to sense that the right version of the
    notice is on sheets of paper. And why? Because they know
    intuitively that the on-line version is one more step removed from
    what computing is *really* all about. And what is that? I think we
    all know. Computing is about boxes of cards. And many leading
    computer scientists now say they knew it all along.

    It is true that the television generation had its temporary
    flirtation with cathode-ray tube representations of card images.
    (and after all, what is a disk file but a television
    representation of a stack of cards?) But secretly in the back
    rooms of America's major universities and research companies, top
    computer scientists are returning to the safe, dependable,
    reassuring technology of punched cards and keypunches.

    The keypunches of the future, of course, will not be the clunkers
    many of us are used to, but sleek, ecology-minded, steam-driven
    keypunches that do not rely on electrical power. Dr. Melodij
    Ardenelesti of Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, told our reporter
    that every developer at Murray Hill could be serviced by
    steam-driven keypunches powered by only five of the powerful new
    two-story boilers placed in strategic locations around the
    building. They can even be powered by burning printouts. The
    problems are not insurmountable, Ardenelesti told us. "Input media
    may be only the beginning. By the year 2035 entire computer
    centers may be running on steam power. Among the advantages, steam
    computing eliminates the need for expensive air conditioning. It
    is a well-understood technology. In the future, powering up your
    PC at home may be as simple as putting a tea kettle on the stove
    is today. But first we need to get the keypunches working." Major
    challenges? Most current steam keypunches cause the cards produced
    to "wilt" and one site reports problems with mildew.

    If, indeed, there is a marriage of the new steam computing
    technology with a return to punched cards, there are many
    advantages that have been cited:
    - Card decks lead to better programming. Currently many
    programmers write long, inefficient programs. A major cause is
    that they just cannot get a very good feel for the size of their
    programs when they see only a small piece at a time on a CRT.
    Dealing with card decks helps keep a developer more "in touch"
    with the program. It also contributes to physical fitness.
    - Card decks lend themselves very easily to multi-media
    applications, as notes and comments may be hand-written on
    computer cards.
    - Card decks provide greater security and are much harder to
    pirate than are disk files. A piece of foreign code such as a worm
    or a virus is much harder to introduce since one must be
    physically present to stuff it in a deck. Using different colored
    cards, with the color of a deck chosen at random, further
    frustrates would-be hackers.
    - The safety of CRTs has been called into question in the last
    few years, but card and paper technology have to date never been
    questioned.

    But leading computer scientists, off the record, list another
    virtue that is harder to quantify. There is a certain tactile
    pleasure in your hand a program, with its own characteristic
    weight and heft based on the size of the program. As one IBM
    computer scientist told us, "There was a need and this thing in my
    hand fulfills that need. It is not made up of electron positions
    that other equipment tells us about. It is here, self-contained in
    my hand. It is a sort of existential satisfaction that was present
    in earlier days of computing and we are looking forward to its
    return." Several cutting-edge technology companies are betting
    that feeling will become more common. [-mrl]

    [Various people have also suggested replacing ballistic missiles
    with trebuchets and missile interceptors with slings. -ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: PRECIOUS CHILDREN by Mary G. Thompson (copyright 2026,
    Tachyon Publications, publication date September 1, 2026, ISBN: 978-1-61696-465-8 (print); 978-1-61696-466-5 (digital)) (book
    review by Joe Karpierz)

    Those readers who are parents, who have raised children from
    infancy through adulthood, know what a challenge that endeavor can
    be. We love them unconditionally, but they can drive us to
    distraction. As they grow older and develop their personalities,
    as they become who they will be in life, there are times we just
    don't know who they are (and yes, they don't know who they are
    either). They change seemingly from day to day, if not hour by
    hour or minute by minute. It almost seems like they have multiple personalities.

    And yet, we would absolutely hate to lose them under any
    circumstances. What parent wouldn't want their child back, no
    matter what the cost? We go to great lengths to protect them, so
    they don't accidentally pass away, but it still happens. Nothing
    in life is guaranteed, including life itself. But what if there
    was a technology that allowed us to do just that? Would we take
    advantage of it? Could we take advantage of it? Would we have the
    means to take advantage of it?

    Mary G. Thompson's PRECIOUS CHILDREN takes us to a world in which
    not only the birthrate is plummeting, but children are dying at an
    alarming rate. The government is concerned, so the President's
    Population program is developed, which will allow people who have
    the means--that is, money--to generate thousands of clones of
    themselves. Those clones get to live with other families and have
    normal lives, but the caveat is that if one of the clones is
    needed because a child died, the original parents are allowed to
    select one and have the memories of the previous child transferred
    to the clone, thus replacing the previous child. Additionally, a
    child continually backs up its consciousness
    to ... somewhere...under the auspices of Generations, Inc. So, the consciousness and the memories are transferred to and replace
    those of the selected child such that the parents never have to
    lose their, well, precious children. Of course, this wouldn't be
    much of a story if the process always succeeded.

    Dina and Preston Blake are participants in the President's
    population program. Di and Geoff are clones of their parents. Dina
    and Preston, as you might guess, are extremely wealthy. We really
    don't know what Preston does for a living that allows him to have
    the means to be part of the program. Dina is the stay-at-home
    mom--more accurately, neurotic mom. As the story opens, Geoff has
    died for the second time, and Dina is a mess, living on stims to
    help her cope with the tragedy of losing her son and the
    possibility of losing her daughter. Preston does care for his wife
    and kids, but he's not too concerned with what's going on with
    them. He's very conscious of his image, and hey, we have the money
    to take care of everything, so what is there to really worry about?

    But, as I said earlier, this wouldn't be much of a story if the consciousness/memory transfer always worked. And in the case of
    the transfer of Geoff into a boy named Nathan, the transfer isn't
    quite right. There's something going on, and Di knows exactly what
    it is, why it is, and what is supposed to happen. Dina is
    over-stimmed and breaking down, and Preston thinks that all he has
    to do is calm everyone down and everything will be fine. Dina and
    Preston are so detached from their children--and why wouldn't they
    be, they can just get another one?--that they cannot see what's
    going on right in front of them.

    PRECIOUS CHILDREN is a frightening story of wealth, privilege, and
    bad parenting. The reader does get a glimpse into the inner
    workings of Generations, Inc., the population program, and the
    government, just enough to see that there's something not quite
    right going on with those entities as well. While I liked the
    concept and the story, it seems to me that PRECIOUS CHILDREN would
    have benefitted from being a longer book. There are a few
    unanswered questions that nagged me as a reader, and some things
    were left unsaid or not further explored. Having said all that,
    however, I do like this book and would recommend it. You may be
    creeped out by it, especially if you're a parent currently raising
    children. Once you finish reading PRECIOUS CHILDREN, you may want
    to keep a close eye on the kids. They may be up to something. Just
    remember they're the only ones you have. [-jak]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Pardoning Power and Term Limits (letters of comment by Gary
    McGath, Lawrence D'Oliveiro, and Keith F. Lynch)

    In response to Evelyn's comments on the Presidential pardoning
    power as discussed in the Federalist Papers in the 08/14/26 issue
    of the MT VOID, Gary McGath writes:

    That leads to a paradoxical thought: Perhaps the advocates of the
    pardoning power supported it partly because George III had set a
    good example. The Declaration of Independence blames him for a lot
    of things that weren't under his control, and there were real
    things to criticize him for, but he rarely abused his powers. The
    Founders knew this, even if they found it useful to pile
    accusations on a single villain rather than a more nebulous
    Parliament. They were inclined by the examples of him and George
    Washington to put too much trust in a single person with executive
    power. [-gmg]

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro responds:

    Have you noticed that Parliamentary systems seem to have less need
    of term limits? And they have no concept of rCLimpeachmentrCY;
    instead, Parliament just needs to pass a vote of no confidence in
    the Government and its Prime Minister, and down they come. [-ldo]

    And Keith F. Lynch adds:

    What I've noticed is that Britain's PM's have often had
    non-consecutive terms. 305 years of PMs vs. 237 years of US
    presidents, just 28% more time. That's 59 unique PMs serving 81
    terms, vs. 45 unique US presidents serving 47 terms. (Not
    counting immediately consecutive terms.)

    Presidents Grover Cleveland and Donald Trump served (or are
    currently serving) non-consecutive terms. PMs who have served
    non-consecutive terms include Winston Churchill, William Pitt the
    Younger, William Lamb, William Cavendish-Bentinck, Thomas
    Pelham-Holles, Robert Peel, Ramsay MacDonald, John Russell, Henry
    John Temple, Harold Wilson, Charles Watson-Wentworth, Benjamin
    Disraeli, and Arthur Wellesley (2 non-consecutive terms each),
    Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, Edward
    Smith-Stanley William, and Stanley Baldwin (3 non-consecutive
    terms each), and William Gladstone (4 non-consecutive terms).

    But there have been no repeat PMs in the last half-century. [-kfl]

    Evelyn elaborates:

    If one looks at how long various PMs were in office, in the last
    century only two lasted long enough to hit the term limit the US
    has for Presidents: Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair. [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: Subtitling vs. Dubbing (letter of comment by Lawrence
    D'Oliveiro)

    In response to Evelyn's comments on subtitling and dubbing in the
    08/14/26 issue of the MT VOID, Lawrence D'Oliveiro writes:

    [Evelyn writes,] "One complaint I have is that a lot [of the film
    CLOUD] is being conveyed by screen shots of computers, sometimes
    scrolling, and most of it is not subtitled." [-ecl]

    Some people seem to prefer dubbing to subtitles, I donrCOt know why
    ... [-ldo]

    Evelyn responds:

    One reason is that people need to look away from the visuals on
    the screen to read the subtitles, and the slower they read, the
    worse it is. [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: GOSFORD PARK (letter of comment by Peter Trei)

    In response to Evelyn's comments on GOSFORD PARK in the 08/14/26
    issue of the MT VOID, Peter Trei writes:

    If you get a chance, I highly recommend watching it with the
    director's commentary sound track.

    The servants and service are the actual topic of the movie. There
    is a servant in every scene, and the movie is an exploration of
    the master/servant relationship. The 'whodunit' aspect is just the
    McGuffin to weave that exploration around.

    Listening to that really opened up the movie for me. [-pt]

    Evelyn responds:

    Actually, I think that writer-producer Julian Fellowes's
    commentary is even better. (This may be the one to which you are
    referring.) Apparently he had older relatives who actually lived
    somewhat in the manner of GOSFORD PARK and drew upon that
    knowledge as well as general knowledge to comment on British
    society and the class system. On the other hand, director Robert
    Altman gives a fairly standard director's commentary. [-ecl]

    [Note: Last night I re-watched GOSFORD PARK with Fellowes's
    commentary and I am 99.9% sure that's the commentary you meant.
    -ecl]

    ===================================================================

    TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

    Three books about history, complete with my quibbles:

    THE WRITER'S GUIDE TO EVERYDAY LIFE IN THE 1800S by Marc
    McCutcheon (WriterrCOs Digest, ISBN 0-89879-541-9) sounded
    interesting, maybe something along the lines of WHAT JANE AUSTEN
    ATE AND CHARLES DICKENS KNEW. Alas, it was more just a set of
    dictionary entries (e.g., "wildcat money" followed by a definition
    and then a series of quotations using it, the quotations being a
    large part of the text). Occasionally there would be more
    commentary on a term, but this is more a book to use as a
    reference if you are *reading* a historical novel than something
    to use while writing one, because you need to know the term before
    you can look it up. (I suppose an author could read the entire
    chapter on money and make notes about terms to use, but that seems inefficient.) My other note is that it is not entirely accurate.
    For example, it claims that collard greens are kale leaves, but
    collard greens and kale are two different variations of the same
    species, and definitely taste differents.


    A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ANCIENT ROME: DAILY LIFE, MYSTERIES, AND
    CURIOSITIES by Alberto Angela (Europa, ISBN 978-1-933-37271-6)
    is aimed more at a general audience than many of the books about
    ancient Rome that I have been reading, and as such is more
    readable than, say, THE CROWD IN ROME IN THE LATE REPUBLIC by
    Fergus Millar or PUBLIC SPECTACLES IN ROME AND LATE ANTIQUE
    PALESTINE by Zeev Weiss. Angela has been a television commentator,
    so it is not surprising that he structured his book as a walk
    through Rome on a typical day, the text reading much as a tour
    guide would present it.

    I always have a quibble, but this time I have at least three.
    First, Angela talks about going to the ovine section of the market
    and seeing goats. They would be in the caprine section; the ovine
    section would have sheep. The Romans raised both.

    Okay, that is a little obscure. But the second quibble indicates
    that while the author may have had a temporary "brain fart", no
    one at Europa was copy-editing this book, because on page 205
    Angela claims that Marcus Aurelius gave the funeral oration for
    Julius Caesar on the Forum, "as seen in many films." NO! Marc
    Antony gave the funeral oration; (Emperor) Marcus Aurelius lived
    two hundred years later. (The films would be primarily those based
    on Shakespeare's JULIUS CAESAR, notably the 1953 and 1970
    versions.)

    And the third quibble, though this is more or less a constant
    quibble: authors seem to either be ignorant of menstruation or
    have decided it's just too "icky" to write about (even as they
    write detailed descriptions of injuries and deaths). Angela has a
    whole chapter on sex, and also covers childbirth, but never
    mentions how Roman women dealt with menstruation, or what the
    attitude was towards it. As I noted in my comments in the 07/03/26
    issue, Xiaolu Guo does not avoid the issue in ISHMAELLE, but she
    is the exception.


    A ROME OF ONE'S OWN by Emma Southon (Abrams Press, ISBN
    978-1-4197-6018-1) is about women in ancient Rome, and if
    PUBLIC SPECTACLES IN ROME AND LATE ANTIQUE PALESTINE was overly
    academic, and A DAY IN THE LIFE OF ANCIENT ROME more aimed at a
    general audience, A ROME OF ONE'S OWN is downright chatty. Southon
    seems determined to present a text ready-made for an audiobook.
    Here's a sample paragraph:

    Julia was born while her dad was about half-way along
    his Pokemon evolution from awkward sickly teenager to
    the Great Augustus, and right at the end of his second
    marriage. And I really mean *right* at the end. The day
    she was born, her dad served her mum Scribonia divorce
    papers. Right as she's lying there, just having survived
    her third labour without painkillers, holding her
    swaddled hours-old daughter, he walks out on their
    marriage because it is no longer useful to him. Augustus
    is ice-cold like that his entire life. Modern
    descriptions of Augustus's decision to divorce Scribonia
    are emblematic of the misogyny permeating, well,
    everything. The description most often quoted is that of
    Suetonius, which says, in the original, "'pertaesus',
    ut scribit, 'morum perversitatum eius'". This broadly
    means he was bored or wearied by her ways. But that
    little adjective, "perversitatum", had variously been
    translated as bitter, shrewish and nagging. "Perversus"
    means none of these things. It just means wrong or bad.
    Nagging and shrewish and bitter are how male
    translators have *interpreted* a "bad" wife. And none of
    them managed to resolve in their minds the later
    statement by Suetonius that Scribonia's main issue with
    their marriage had been that Augustus wouldn't stop
    knobbing other women. Shrewish indeed.

    But I swear that copy-editing is dead, dead, dead. People talk
    about how giving something from the Internet as a citation to
    support a claim, and one should read books. Well, *this* book
    claims Julius Caesar was assassinated in 45 B.C.E. Now, if there
    is one date from people know from ancient Rome it is that Julius
    Caesar was assassinated on the Ides of March, 44 B.C.E.

    And she talks about Gaius, who succeeded Tiberius and preceded his
    (Gaius's) uncle Claudius as Emperor. Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus
    Germanicus was better known as Caligula; Southon has a tendency to
    decide randomly whether to call someone by their official name (as
    here, where she doesn't even give you a parenthetical "a.k.a."),
    or by the name by which they are now known (as for Caracalla).

    [Apparently copy-editing has been dead for a long time. In the
    1982 reprint of the 1955 APES, ANGELS, AND VICTORIANS, author
    William Irvine spells Alfred Russel Wallace's name wrong
    throughout. Sir Julian Huxley--grandson of Thomas Henry Huxley,
    great-nephew of Matthew Arnold, and brother to Aldous Huxley--does
    get it right in his introduction for this edition, though.]

    [-ecl]

    ===================================================================

    Evelyn C. Leeper
    evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com


    During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment
    of Christianity has been upon trial. What has been its
    fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and
    indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the
    laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
    --James Madison

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  • From Cryptoengineer@petertrei@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Sun Aug 23 12:39:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/23/2026 9:25 AM, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
    THE MT VOID
    08/21/26 -- Vol. 45, No. 8, Whole Number 2446

    [Note: Last night I re-watched GOSFORD PARK with Fellowes's
    commentary and I am 99.9% sure that's the commentary you meant.
    -ecl]
    I'm sure you're correct. Its been a long time.
    No need to stick this in MT VOID....

    pt

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  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 01:42:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On Sun, 23 Aug 2026 09:25:40 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    If one looks at how long various PMs were in office, in the last
    century only two lasted long enough to hit the term limit the US
    has for Presidents: Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair. [-ecl]

    ThatrCOs in the UK. Look at other democracies, for example Germany, and
    you see for example Helmut Kohl and Angela Merkel both got to serve
    (most of) 4 terms each.

    And both stood aside gracefully once they felt their own time at the
    helm was over.

    Here in NZ Helen Clark served 3|u3-year terms as Prime Minister. She
    currently fills a role as one of our rCLelder stateswomenrCY, and had a
    senior post at the UN for a time.

    [Evelyn writes,] "One complaint I have is that a lot [of the film
    CLOUD] is being conveyed by screen shots of computers, sometimes
    scrolling, and most of it is not subtitled." [-ecl]

    Some people seem to prefer dubbing to subtitles, I donrCOt know why
    ... [-ldo]

    Evelyn responds:

    One reason is that people need to look away from the visuals on the
    screen to read the subtitles, and the slower they read, the worse it
    is. [-ecl]

    Did nobody notice that I was bringing up dubbing versus subtitling
    with respect to, not human speakers, but *screen pictures*? ;)

    In any case, I have watched many films in languages I couldnrCOt
    understand, and appreciated hearing the actorsrCO original voices.
    Sometimes that conveys things that dubbing cannot.
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  • From kludge@kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 11:00:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    Did nobody notice that I was bringing up dubbing versus subtitling
    with respect to, not human speakers, but *screen pictures*? ;)

    In any case, I have watched many films in languages I couldnrCOt
    understand, and appreciated hearing the actorsrCO original voices.
    Sometimes that conveys things that dubbing cannot.

    This is true.

    But, for example... I have seen Jerry Lewis films dubbed into French and
    they were funny! They put better jokes in!

    Then again, I have also seen Marx Brothers films dubbed into French that weren't funny at all, becaused the good jokes were all left out.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 12:19:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/23/26 21:42, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Aug 2026 09:25:40 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    If one looks at how long various PMs were in office, in the last
    century only two lasted long enough to hit the term limit the US
    has for Presidents: Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair. [-ecl]

    ThatrCOs in the UK. Look at other democracies, for example Germany, and
    you see for example Helmut Kohl and Angela Merkel both got to serve
    (most of) 4 terms each.

    And both stood aside gracefully once they felt their own time at the
    helm was over.

    Here in NZ Helen Clark served 3|u3-year terms as Prime Minister. She currently fills a role as one of our rCLelder stateswomenrCY, and had a senior post at the UN for a time.

    [Evelyn writes,] "One complaint I have is that a lot [of the film
    CLOUD] is being conveyed by screen shots of computers, sometimes
    scrolling, and most of it is not subtitled." [-ecl]

    Some people seem to prefer dubbing to subtitles, I donrCOt know why
    ... [-ldo]

    Evelyn responds:

    One reason is that people need to look away from the visuals on the
    screen to read the subtitles, and the slower they read, the worse it
    is. [-ecl]

    Did nobody notice that I was bringing up dubbing versus subtitling
    with respect to, not human speakers, but *screen pictures*? ;)

    In any case, I have watched many films in languages I couldnrCOt
    understand, and appreciated hearing the actorsrCO original voices.
    Sometimes that conveys things that dubbing cannot.

    When films are subtitled, even if you don't know the whole language, you
    may be able to recognize in the dialogue who is being addressed formally (usted, Sie) vs. informally (tu/du). I don't Understand German, but I
    could recognize in THE PIANIST when someone was being addressed one way,
    and someone else another.

    (As an English example of why this matters, consider HIDDEN FIGURES,
    where, at the end, Vivian Mitchell calls Dorothy Vaughan "Mrs. Vaughn"
    for the first time, having called her "Dorothy" throughout the rest of
    the film.)

    (As for speakers vs. screen pictures, yes, it's hard to dub text
    displayed on the screen. Some films actually shoot different images for different languages, or at least they used to.)
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit
    that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes
    -Friedrich Nietzsche
    86 47 II/4 25
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  • From prd@prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 18:08:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    In article <116hqum$2poi2$1@dont-email.me>,
    evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) wrote:

    When films are subtitled, even if you don't know the whole language,
    you may be able to recognize in the dialogue who is being addressed
    formally (usted, Sie) vs. informally (tu/du). I don't Understand
    German, but I could recognize in THE PIANIST when someone was being addressed one way, and someone else another.

    I remember seeing a French policier on TV a few years ago where the
    detective discovers a woman standing over her dead husband. Instead of arresting her, they spend the night together. The next morning he asks
    her if she slept well.

    "Oui. Et vous, er tu."

    I failed O-level French back in 1968, but I still got the significance of
    that.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From djheydt@djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 19:40:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    In article <116hqum$2poi2$1@dont-email.me>,
    Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
    (As an English example of why this matters, consider HIDDEN FIGURES,
    where, at the end, Vivian Mitchell calls Dorothy Vaughan "Mrs. Vaughn"
    for the first time, having called her "Dorothy" throughout the rest of
    the film.)

    [Hal Heydt]
    First name vs. <honorific> last name can be more important than
    one might think. Back before it became near univesal, Dorothy
    changed banks because the old one had the tellers first name the
    customers, which was not Dorothy's preference. It was done in
    the name of being "friendly" to customers. Not all customers
    want their business relationships treated as social connections.

    I can actually use how I'm addressed to help weed out spam/scam
    callers. My formal first name in *nothing* like how I am known
    to those who know me. (To be fair, my current fastest way to
    weed out unwanted telemarketing calls is ask who they are trying
    to contact. A long silence is a strong indicator of spam or
    scam. The calls are coming in on a land line, so--in theory--they
    might want to talk to anyone in the household.)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From prd@prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 22:41:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    In article <tKAHB8.16tw@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
    Heydt) wrote:

    First name vs. <honorific> last name can be more important than
    one might think. Back before it became near univesal, Dorothy
    changed banks because the old one had the tellers first name the
    customers, which was not Dorothy's preference. It was done in
    the name of being "friendly" to customers. Not all customers
    want their business relationships treated as social connections.

    When I was in Amsterdam after the Eurocon a couple of years ago, the desk
    clerk at my hotel - of South Asian heritage - kept referring to me as Mr
    Paul. After my accident last year, I've had carers in and one of them is
    South Asian and he says Mr Paul. Apparently, in his culture using the
    family name is wrong.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 23:54:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On Mon, 24 Aug 2026 22:40 +0100 (BST), Paul Dormer wrote:

    When I was in Amsterdam after the Eurocon a couple of years ago, the
    desk clerk at my hotel - of South Asian heritage - kept referring to
    me as Mr Paul. After my accident last year, I've had carers in and
    one of them is South Asian and he says Mr Paul. Apparently, in his
    culture using the family name is wrong.

    Some of them donrCOt have family names.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tim Merrigan@tppm@ca.rr.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Mon Aug 24 21:00:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/24/2026 4:54 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Aug 2026 22:40 +0100 (BST), Paul Dormer wrote:

    When I was in Amsterdam after the Eurocon a couple of years ago, the
    desk clerk at my hotel - of South Asian heritage - kept referring to
    me as Mr Paul. After my accident last year, I've had carers in and
    one of them is South Asian and he says Mr Paul. Apparently, in his
    culture using the family name is wrong.

    Some of them donrCOt have family names.

    I don't know about South Asian, but in a lot of East Asian cultures, the
    name shown first IS the family name.
    --

    Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

    Tim Merrigan

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From djheydt@djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Tue Aug 25 05:17:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    In article <116j41q$3dsv8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On 8/24/2026 4:54 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Aug 2026 22:40 +0100 (BST), Paul Dormer wrote:

    When I was in Amsterdam after the Eurocon a couple of years ago, the
    desk clerk at my hotel - of South Asian heritage - kept referring to
    me as Mr Paul. After my accident last year, I've had carers in and
    one of them is South Asian and he says Mr Paul. Apparently, in his
    culture using the family name is wrong.

    Some of them donrCOt have family names.

    I don't know about South Asian, but in a lot of East Asian cultures, the >name shown first IS the family name.

    [Hal Heydt]
    nearly every time there is an article quoting someone in
    Indonesia, there will be an added bit noting that many
    Indonesians have only one name.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Tue Aug 25 04:54:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/25/26 01:17, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
    In article <116j41q$3dsv8$1@dont-email.me>,
    Tim Merrigan <tppm@ca.rr.com> wrote:
    On 8/24/2026 4:54 PM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Aug 2026 22:40 +0100 (BST), Paul Dormer wrote:

    When I was in Amsterdam after the Eurocon a couple of years ago, the
    desk clerk at my hotel - of South Asian heritage - kept referring to
    me as Mr Paul. After my accident last year, I've had carers in and
    one of them is South Asian and he says Mr Paul. Apparently, in his
    culture using the family name is wrong.

    Some of them donrCOt have family names.

    I don't know about South Asian, but in a lot of East Asian cultures, the
    name shown first IS the family name.

    [Hal Heydt]
    nearly every time there is an article quoting someone in
    Indonesia, there will be an added bit noting that many
    Indonesians have only one name.

    See <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    See also
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legally_mononymous_people>
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit
    that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes
    -Friedrich Nietzsche
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Tue Aug 25 22:12:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 04:54:19 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    See <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    I notice that article uses the terms rCLfirst namerCY and rCLlast namerCY, which I am careful not to.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Tue Aug 25 21:09:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/25/26 18:12, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 04:54:19 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    See
    <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    I notice that article uses the terms rCLfirst namerCY and rCLlast namerCY, which I am careful not to.

    It beats "Christian name" and "family name", however. And yes, I've been
    asked what my Christian name was.

    (I'm not keen on "maiden name" either, and prefer "birth name", but that
    may be just me.)
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit
    that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes
    -Friedrich Nietzsche
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Wed Aug 26 02:31:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 21:09:43 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    On 8/25/26 18:12, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 04:54:19 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    See
    <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    I notice that article uses the terms rCLfirst namerCY and rCLlast namerCY, >> which I am careful not to.

    It beats "Christian name" and "family name", however. And yes, I've
    been asked what my Christian name was.

    rCLGiven namerCY and rCLfamily namerCY seem to be the best culture-neutral terms.

    The French teach all their kids in school to write their names with
    the family name in all capitals. That way, you can easily tell which
    one it is, no matter what the ordering. I think this idea should be
    adopted more widely:

    Jane FONDA
    LUGOSI Bela
    CHOW Yoon Fat
    Michelle YEOH Choo Kheng
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From djheydt@djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Wed Aug 26 03:38:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    In article <116lecn$8kr3$1@dont-email.me>,
    Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 8/25/26 18:12, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 04:54:19 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    See
    <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    I notice that article uses the terms rCLfirst namerCY and rCLlast namerCY, >> which I am careful not to.

    It beats "Christian name" and "family name", however. And yes, I've been >asked what my Christian name was.

    (I'm not keen on "maiden name" either, and prefer "birth name", but that
    may be just me.)

    [Hal Heydt]
    How about "forename" and "surname"?
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Wed Aug 26 04:27:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On Wed, 26 Aug 2026 03:38:17 GMT, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

    How about "forename" and "surname"?

    That implies ordering.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Evelyn C. Leeper@evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.fandom on Wed Aug 26 06:50:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

    On 8/25/26 22:31, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 21:09:43 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    On 8/25/26 18:12, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 04:54:19 -0400, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

    See
    <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>,
    #20.

    I notice that article uses the terms rCLfirst namerCY and rCLlast namerCY, >>> which I am careful not to.

    It beats "Christian name" and "family name", however. And yes, I've
    been asked what my Christian name was.

    rCLGiven namerCY and rCLfamily namerCY seem to be the best culture-neutral terms.

    The French teach all their kids in school to write their names with
    the family name in all capitals. That way, you can easily tell which
    one it is, no matter what the ordering. I think this idea should be
    adopted more widely:

    Jane FONDA
    LUGOSI Bela
    CHOW Yoon Fat
    Michelle YEOH Choo Kheng

    Patrick NIELSEN HAYDEN
    Alexander MCCALL SMITH
    Federico GARC|iA LORCA

    No one seems to know definitively whether it's "Arthur Conan DOYLE" or
    "Arthur CONAN DOYLE".

    But then you have Icelandic authors, where "family name" is not truly
    accurate either, e.g., Arnaldur Indri|#ason, for whom Indri|#ason is a patronymic and who is alphabetized by and referred to as Arnaldur. (I
    have a book edited by Margret Helgadottir and I'm still not sure how to alphabetize it!)

    Perhaps "surname" works better than "family name", but then we're back effectively to "last name".

    Roman names had three parts praenomen (personal name), nomen (family
    name), and cognomen (additional name(s)):

    Gaius Julius Caesar
    Marcus Tullius Cicero
    Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus (known as Augustus)
    Caesar Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus
    Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus
    Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (lnown as Caligula)

    Various Romans are known by their praenomina, their nomina, or their cognomina, or sometimes by a nickname.
    --
    Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
    Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit
    that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes
    -Friedrich Nietzsche
    86 47 II/4 25
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2