On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
-a-a-a-aThat depends entirely on the environment.were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
-a-a-a-aBut one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which is >> harmful
to people.-a All those non-electric vehicles-a contribute to the stresses >> of life
in a city.-a Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon burden,
but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution as
these
-a-a-a-a"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track anti-pollution measures.-a But-a some intensive livestock operations can be very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.-a Pig farming for example is really stinky.-a But so is sugar beet processing.
On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
aaaaThat depends entirely on the environment.
aaaaBut one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which is harmful
to people.a All those non-electric vehiclesa contribute to the stresses of life
in a city.a Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon burden, but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution as these >> were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
aaaa"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track
anti-pollution measures.a Buta some intensive livestock operations can be
very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.a Pig farming for
example is really stinky.a But so is sugar beet processing.
aaaabliss
Yup, I can attest to that here in Sugar Land, Texas. When they shut
down the Sugar refinery here in 2005 or so, the city started smelling a
lot better. They could not get the vapor controls to work properly or consistently in the 1840 something sugar refinery as the entire city
would smell like burnt sugar all the time.
Lynn
Some of the best SF predicted human powered transport. Teams of
humans to move heavy loads. The very wealthy had horses and ponies
to pull their carriages. Long distance travel was done by portals.
"Maybe The Stars My Destination".
On Tue, 3 Mar 2026 19:37:34 -0800, Bobbie Sellers ><bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Internal explosion engines are ridiculous except on motorcycles. In = >carslate
the IEE's have spoiled our climate. As someone in the Early 20th or =
19th Century said "A fad, these noisy stink machines cannot hold the >>public's interest."
In /The Rolling Stones/, Heinlein has an interesting essay on the >ridiculousness of the IC automobile.
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D|Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW, VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
On 3/4/2026 11:53 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 20:14:20 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D|Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
IOW, automobile engine noise has become a vital part of the sonic
environment.
There's two different kinds of noise being confused here.
One is noise that cars are supposed to emit *outside* the car when
traveling forward under 20 mph, or when reversing. Its intended to warn pedestrians of the car.
My Tesla predates the mandate, and has no exterior speaker, so it's
silent. I've totally startled pedestrians when creeping along behind
them in areas with a little background noise.
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise you wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
On 3/4/2026 2:04 PM, Mark Shaw wrote:
In rec.arts.sf.written Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
If I had an electric car, I'd want it to make the noise that The
Jetsons' car made.
Me too. But the NTSB came up with standards, requiring
certain loudnesses in different frequency bands, and
that it sound like a motor of some kind, with frequency
shifting up with speed.
On 3/4/2026 2:04 PM, Mark Shaw wrote:
In rec.arts.sf.written Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
IIRC, the original motivation for engine noise was to allow blind
persons to tell that there was an automobile lurking about.
If I had an electric car, I'd want it to make the noise that The
Jetsons' car made.
Me too. But the NTSB came up with standards, requiring
certain loudnesses in different frequency bands, and
that it sound like a motor of some kind, with frequency
shifting up with speed.
pt
On 2026-03-04 21:12:27 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 3/4/2026 10:59 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
...
-a-a-a-aThat depends entirely on the environment.
-a-a-a-aBut one place they excel is noise reduction in the cities which >>> is harmful
to people.-a All those non-electric vehicles-a contribute to the
stresses of life
in a city.-a Private cars contribute a great deal to the carbon
burden, but in
the USA presently there are NO regulations of any form of pollution
as these
were just removed by the mal-administrations EPA.
-a-a-a-a"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-track >>> anti-pollution measures.-a But-a some intensive livestock operations
can be
very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity.-a Pig farming for >>> example is really stinky.-a But so is sugar beet processing.
-a-a-a-abliss
Yup, I can attest to that here in Sugar Land, Texas.-a When they shut
down the Sugar refinery here in 2005 or so, the city started smelling
a lot better.-a They could not get the vapor controls to work properly
or consistently in the 1840 something sugar refinery as the entire
city would smell like burnt sugar all the time.
Lynn
Can't say I've ever heard of any problems with the sugar refinery here
in Auckland, which was built a long time ago and is now in the harbour-
side edge of what has become a fairly expensive suburb. They even run
tours and have a public cafe (although the food there is expensive).
On 3/4/2026 3:56 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Some of the best SF predicted human powered transport. Teams of
humans to move heavy loads.-a The very wealthy had horses and ponies
to pull their carriages. Long distance travel was done by portals.
"Maybe The Stars My Destination".
Arriving at the social event of the season the rich competed with
various expensive means of transport.-a The protagonist topped them all
by arriving by train, preceded by a mechanical track-laying contraption.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
On 2026-03-04 17:09:04 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D-|Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and
including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW,-a VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
No, fake gears would be silly.
Fake noises are a bit less silly, as long as they're normal car sounds
so that pedestrians can hear them coming.
Electric cars themselves are silly.
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
Petrol cars aren't slow ... many of the fastest production cars in the
world are still petrol powered, although electric "assist" and pure
electric ones have more recently started joining the list too.
Of course, speed is actually irrelevant since there's a little thing
called "speed limits" in the real world.-a :-p
On 3/4/2026 5:22 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 17:09:04 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 3/4/2026 2:14 AM, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 03:58:09 +0000, Lawrence D|Oliveiro said:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 15:51:20 +1300, Titus G wrote:
An electric car with a proper manual stick shift would be silly.
Not necessarily. They already have cars which fake engine noise
through the hi-fi speakers. It would be easy enough for the power
control system to add a fake torque curve and gear ratios, up to and >>>>> including fake stalling if you stuff it up!
But "fake" = "silly".
So, BMW,a VW, Toyota, Toyota are all silly?
No, fake gears would be silly.
Fake noises are a bit less silly, as long as they're normal car sounds
so that pedestrians can hear them coming.
Electric cars themselves are silly.
Some people, like 'YourName' are imprinted on old technology.
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
pt
Petrol cars aren't slow ... many of the fastest production cars in the
world are still petrol powered, although electric "assist" and pure
electric ones have more recently started joining the list too.
Of course, speed is actually irrelevant since there's a little thing
called "speed limits" in the real world.a :-p
True, but 'fast' includes 'fast off a stop'. The 3 quickest production
cars in the world can do 0-60 in 1.7 seconds. Two of them are EVs.
Even my bottom-end Tesla can go 0-60 in 5 seconds,
which means I can leave the vast majority of cars in the dust.
Its very comforting to know that you can get out of a tight situation
by going forwards as well as by braking.
I see you concede on 'noisy and smelly'.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less* powerful
and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.-a :-\
I see no reason for cars to be noisy, smelly, and slow.
Maybe they have done good in this world and are now tired.
"Farm animals" were a ploy by Ronald Regan to attempt to side-trackWhen I was growing up and we took a trip to visit relatives in Oregon,
anti-pollution measures. But some intensive livestock operations can be >very polluting and annoying to anyone in the vicinity. Pig farming for >example is really stinky. But so is sugar beet processing.
On 3/7/2026 3:11 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
On 04/03/2026 16.26, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise
you wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin,
to please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who
believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality
much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually
*less* powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.-a :-\
A story that turns this idea on its head is "Exile"[1], in which
a cast-away on a planet technologically similar to Earth in the
1940s or 1950s invents an automotive muffler that is 0.999...
efficient. Auto races are suddenly very quiet.
The racers complain about the loss of that aspect of their passion,
but use them anyway. But, where is all of the sonic energy going?
[1] <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55850>
Just adding that piping fake engine sounds into the cabin to
impress the driver is straight out of "The Marching Morons'
by Kornbluth (?).
pt
On 04/03/2026 16.26, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise you
wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to >> please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other makers >> to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less* powerful and /
or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.-a :-\
A story that turns this idea on its head is "Exile"[1], in which
a cast-away on a planet technologically similar to Earth in the
1940s or 1950s invents an automotive muffler that is 0.999...
efficient. Auto races are suddenly very quiet.
The racers complain about the loss of that aspect of their passion,
but use them anyway. But, where is all of the sonic energy going?
[1] <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55850>--
"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
A story that turns this idea on its head is "Exile"[1], in which
a cast-away on a planet technologically similar to Earth in the
1940s or 1950s invents an automotive muffler that is 0.999...
efficient. Auto races are suddenly very quiet.
IIRC, it was sound cancellation (BTW, it wouldn't work as described
because the two sources were not in the exact same location).
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:<snippo, thanks for clarification on EV noises>
Wasted in terms of thermodynamics, certainly.The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to
please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who
believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much
of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less* >powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes. :-\
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise you wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less* powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.-a :-\
On 04/03/2026 16.26, Your Name wrote:
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
For a while after the speakers were added, you could use any noise
you wanted. I would have used the Jetson's flying car sound.
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin,
to please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
pt
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who
believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality
much of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually
*less* powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes.-a :-\
A story that turns this idea on its head is "Exile"[1], in which
a cast-away on a planet technologically similar to Earth in the
1940s or 1950s invents an automotive muffler that is 0.999...
efficient. Auto races are suddenly very quiet.
The racers complain about the loss of that aspect of their passion,
but use them anyway. But, where is all of the sonic energy going?
[1] <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55850>
On Thu, 5 Mar 2026 11:26:14 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
<snippo, thanks for clarification on EV noises>
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to
please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who
believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much
of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less*
powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes. :-\
Wasted in terms of thermodynamics, certainly.
But not wasted in terms of making the driver feel like a Big Man.
So we have here waste energy that ... is not waste energy because it
serves a purpose.
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:
A story that turns this idea on its head is "Exile"[1], in which
a cast-away on a planet technologically similar to Earth in the
1940s or 1950s invents an automotive muffler that is 0.999...
efficient. Auto races are suddenly very quiet.
IIRC, it was sound cancellation (BTW, it wouldn't work as described >because the two sources were not in the exact same location).
Uh-oh. Is this the same gimmick as Arthur C. Clarke's "Silence Please?" --scott
On 3/8/2026 9:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:Hot air that pumps up the car owner's self-image.
On Thu, 5 Mar 2026 11:26:14 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2026-03-04 18:33:05 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
<snippo, thanks for clarification on EV noises>
The other kind of noise are fake engine noises piped into the cabin, to >>>> please people who think Real Cars go 'vroom vroom'. BMW and other
makers to this, and to ICE cars as well as EVs.
Yep. That's one of the stupidities of the boy racer brigadge who
believe having a noisy car means it's more powerful ... in reality much
of that noise is due to wasted energy, so the car is actually *less*
powerful and / or produced by pointless exhaust echoes. :-\
Wasted in terms of thermodynamics, certainly.
But not wasted in terms of making the driver feel like a Big Man.
So we have here waste energy that ... is not waste energy because it
serves a purpose.
Its not waste energy because its all hot air?
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