On Tue, 31 Mar 2026 19:27:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Aha bliss,. I think you would really enjoy Rudyard Kipling's 'Stalky &
Co'
- an account of his childhood in a British Public School.
I reread that several times, as well as Kim. In retrospect some of the >behavior verged on what CS Lewis wrote about 'public' schools.
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a libertarian school.
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
On 02/04/2026 20:33, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out.
'bestiality' (masturbation) was an expulsion event.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 20:33, rbowman wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was
a sexual element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out. 'bestiality'
(masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
On 03/04/26 21:10, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 20:33, rbowman wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was
a sexual element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out. 'bestiality'
(masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
That's the current meaning, but it had a broader meaning within living >memory.
"Buggery" has had a similar shifting meaning. Originally a bugger was a >heretic. (Unless you believe the theory that it was a variant of Bulgar,
from the supposed habits of Bultarians.) Then it came to mean unnatural >intercourse with man or beast, where "unnatural" was open to wide >interpretation. By now it has settled down to a more restricted meaning.
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford >in my time (1961u1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that >it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 21:29:51 +1100, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 03/04/26 21:10, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 02/04/2026 20:33, rbowman wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was
a sexual element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out. 'bestiality'
(masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
That's the current meaning, but it had a broader meaning within living
memory.
I doubt that bestiality ever meant "masturbation".
In Kipling & Lewis's time the teachers would probably have called it
"self abuse", the pupils no doubt had their own slang terms.
Bestiality probably would have led to expulsion, but solitary
masturbation, probably not.
"Buggery" has had a similar shifting meaning. Originally a bugger was a
heretic. (Unless you believe the theory that it was a variant of Bulgar, >>from the supposed habits of Bultarians.) Then it came to mean unnatural
intercourse with man or beast, where "unnatural" was open to wide
interpretation. By now it has settled down to a more restricted meaning.
The heresy was probably that of the Bogomils, who were found in
Bulgaria and spread to other places.
I don't think hazing beneficially contributed to my life experience, but
-
then - I don't think it contribitued non-beneficially, either. It was
just the way things were at the time.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out.
'bestiality' (masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >> >
'bestiality' (masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
Our school headmaster called it "beastliness".
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 01:52:47 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out.
'bestiality' (masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
Our school headmaster called it "beastliness".
If my memory is correct, in those other school stories, by "Frank
Richards" (pseudonym for an anonymous team of writers, like "Franklin
W, Dixon"), "beastliness" was how his friends treated the fat owl of
the Remove" (I never did discover what the "Remove" was).
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>> >> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>> >In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
On 04/04/2026 14:48, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 01:52:47 +0100, snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older >>>>> ones. In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual >>>>> element.
It was punishable by expulsion if it was found out.
'bestiality' (masturbation) was an expulsion event.
I thought "bestiality" was specifically having sex with animals.
Our school headmaster called it "beastliness".
If my memory is correct, in those other school stories, by "Frank
Richards" (pseudonym for an anonymous team of writers, like "Franklin
W, Dixon"), "beastliness" was how his friends treated the fat owl of
the Remove" (I never did discover what the "Remove" was).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remove_(education)
P.S. (Further to this thread, I have found an ebook of Stalky and Co to download and am looking forward to rereading it many decades later.)
If my memory is correct, in those other school stories, by "Frank
Richards" (pseudonym for an anonymous team of writers, like "Franklin
W, Dixon")
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with "hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford in my time (1961rCo1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities.
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>to that American activity. He was probably talking about the >>>different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with "hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring
to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford in my time (1961?1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
it did occur in some other universities. =
In article <1775242700-12588@newsgrouper.org>, athel.cb@gmail.com
says...
Janet <nobody@home.com> posted:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,I agree. The British term for hazing was ragging. It didn't happen at Oxford >> in my time (1961?1967), not at Wadham, anyway; at least, I never heard that >> it did. My sister never reported anything of that sort at St. Andrews. However,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver >>>>>> Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones. >>>>> In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
it did occur in some other universities. =
We had Rag Week, nothing to do with US hazing.
Kipling was writing abour English Public schools; not universities.
Janet
On 2026-04-04 09:52, Nuno Silva wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to
alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>>>>>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The >>>>>>> Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>>>>> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual
element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
-a-a I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing,-a or was referring >>>> to that American activity.-a He was probably talking about-a the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
When I was at Uni in Madrid, at the Uni itself there was none. The
studies were terrifying, no need to add more pain.
However, at the halls of residence (DeepL says that is the translation
for "Colegio Mayor") it was a different story. At mine it was very mild.
At others it was much worse.
In comp.os.linux.misc Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
It is likely the "social clique" version of the "five monkeys
experiment" <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction>
from business/government that is often used to explain how some long
outdated process continues to remain "the policy". Because "that is
the way it has always been done", even though no one doing the process,
nor no one mandating the process as policy, remembers why the process
was done in the way it is done.
The current "social clique" members had to undergo the torture to gain
their status as "in" members of the clique, so therefore all new
entrants have to also undergo the same torture the current "in" members underwent in order for the new entrants to prove their worthiness for inclusion in the clique. I.e., "because we have always done it that
way".
On 4/4/26 04:50, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-04-04 09:52, Nuno Silva wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to
alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public
schools.
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in
"The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was
ostensibly a
libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the
older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual
element.
Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was
sexual
exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
-a-a I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing,-a or was
referring
to that American activity.-a He was probably talking about-a the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for >>> orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
When I was at Uni in Madrid, at the Uni itself there was none. The
studies were terrifying, no need to add more pain.
However, at the halls of residence (DeepL says that is the translation
for "Colegio Mayor") it was a different story. At mine it was very
mild. At others it was much worse.
-a-a-a-aGenerally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and group hazing build bonds between those who share misery.
-a-a-a-aMore exclusive hazing for the Franternities and Sororities of which I have no personal experience builds intensity loyalty supposedly to
te Greek Letter clubs.-a In some of the USA's great universities like
Yale and Harvard it builds bonds that are sustained for life as the
members promise to support one another in their business and
political lives.-a A very exclusive society, Skull and Bones, has
contributed several presidents and other high officials to the
USA.-a Not the worst either since Trump became president.
If he had lost this present term, George Bush of the Iraq War
would hold the title.
-a-a-a-abliss - HS graduate who has been reading a lot since 1955
On Sat, 04 Apr 2026 03:22:38 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>, >>>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Thu, 02 Apr 2026 05:33:56 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
Both Kipling and Lewis wrote about Edwardian English public schools. >>>> >>
Lewis also mentioned schools in his fiction, most notably in "The Silver
Chair", where he describes authoritarianism in what was ostensibly a >>>> >> libertarian school.
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>to that American activity. He was probably talking about the >>>different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant >>something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were >>humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
Happy to add to your knowledge of Americanisms: the phrase here is
"lower than whale shit on the bottom of the ocean".
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:28:36 -0700
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
That's certainly the public line whenever a pledge gets killed in a
dumb stunt and the traditionalists have to scramble to explain to the
cops and the media how this is Fine, Actually. Sounds a lot more high-
minded than "institutionalized abuse of newbies is the means by which >sociopaths who get off on tormenting people find a socially-acceptable
outlet for their disease."
It's no friggin' wonder these people end up in politics and Management.
On Mon, 6 Apr 2026 07:45:57 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 4 Apr 2026 13:28:36 -0700
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Generally hazing is done to test the Mettle of the new parties and
group hazing build bonds between those who share misery. [...] In
some of the USA's great universities like Yale and Harvard it builds
bonds that are sustained for life
That's certainly the public line whenever a pledge gets killed in a
dumb stunt and the traditionalists have to scramble to explain to the
cops and the media how this is Fine, Actually. Sounds a lot more high-
minded than "institutionalized abuse of newbies is the means by which
sociopaths who get off on tormenting people find a socially-acceptable
outlet for their disease."
It's no friggin' wonder these people end up in politics and Management.
From a US dictionary:
haze
3 of 3
verb (2)
hazed; hazing
transitive verb
1
a
: to harass by exacting unnecessary or disagreeable work
b
: to harass by banter, ridicule, or criticism
2
: to play tricks on or force to do unpleasant or unsafe things as initiation haze the fraternity pledges
3
Western US : to drive (animals, such as cattle or horses) from
horseback
hazer noun
From Wikipedia:
Ragging
Ragging is the term used for the so-called "initiation ritual"
practiced in higher education institutions in India, Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka. The practice is similar to hazing in
North America, fagging in the UK, bizutage in France, praxe in
Portugal, and other similar practices in educational institutions
across the world. Ragging involves abuse, humiliation, or harassment
of new entrants or junior students by the senior students Continued in Wikipedia
I understood "ragging" to be a synonym for "teasing" generally, and
not as specifically applied to initiation rituals.
In comp.os.linux.misc Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
(Maybe this one needs to be narrowed to less groups, or sent to alt.unix.geeks?)
On 2026-04-04, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2026 18:00:06 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:
In article <71jusk9gmgrk5b9rccv1tq7h6ec0rs2ua9@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On 2 Apr 2026 19:33:18 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
Kipling wrote about the hazing of the younger students by the older ones.Lewis doesn't merely hint. He says quite clearly that there was sexual >>>>> exploitation at the school he attended. There were not merely
In 'Surprised by Joy' Lewis strongly hints there was a sexual element. >>>>>
adolescent crushes, but there was systemic exploitation as well.
I'd be surprised if Kilpling used the term hazing, or was referring >>>> to that American activity. He was probably talking about the
different British custom fagging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagging
I have only a vague idea of what "hazing" is, and assumed it meant
something like what was euphemistically called "fresher orientation"
at one of the universities I attended, in which new students were
humiliated in various ways to make them understand that they were
lower than shark shit.
It's sad that some people do think such orientation has to come with
"hazing". It's perfectly possible to have a community and activities for
orientation and integration purposes without harassment or
humiliation. Yet some, seeing it with milder harassment, will assume
it's good because it can be less strong...
It is likely the "social clique" version of the "five monkeys
experiment" <https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction>
from business/government that is often used to explain how some long
outdated process continues to remain "the policy". Because "that is
the way it has always been done", even though no one doing the process,
nor no one mandating the process as policy, remembers why the process
was done in the way it is done.
The current "social clique" members had to undergo the torture to gain
their status as "in" members of the clique, so therefore all new
entrants have to also undergo the same torture the current "in" members underwent in order for the new entrants to prove their worthiness for inclusion in the clique. I.e., "because we have always done it that
way".
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