From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi all,

Following a discussion with Adam, I think it's better to open a new thread.

Lots of valuable archaeology information have been sent in this
newsgroup for years but unfortunately they weren't gathered for quick reference somewhere.

There are also old notes from Russ and tale here:
https://ftp.isc.org/usenet/CONFIG/HIERARCHY-NOTES


I'm wondering the best way to revive them, and integrate Adam's and
other people's valuable information about hierarchies.

I could easily parse HIERARCHY-NOTES and make the related information available in the web pages of a hierarchy in usenet.trigofacile.com, as
a new item "History notes" for instance, just after the "Comments" from control.ctl. The problem however is that all the hierarchies listed in HIERARCHY-NOTES are not referenced in ftp.isc.org files. Should I then
just add them in "Defunct hierarchies" with the "History notes" item?

Another possibility would be to add a "Hierarchy notes" web page with
the contents of HIERARCHY-NOTES (plus maybe also the Comments from
control.ctl to make the notes more complete).

Or implement both :)
They indeed both seem useful, with different use cases (looking at one hierarchy or looking at the history of all of them).

I could then integrate in the notes every details Adam or others found
out these late years. (Unless they are more appropriate in control.ctl,
when speaking about rules for the processing of control articles.)


Any other thoughts welcome about how to best achieve that and revive the hierarchy notes.
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aOn ne va jamais si loin que lorsque l'on ne sait pas o|| l'on va.-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

On Wed, 31 May 2023 23:24:00 +0200,
Julien ?LIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

Hi all,

Following a discussion with Adam, I think it's better to open a new thread.

Lots of valuable archaeology information have been sent in this
newsgroup for years but unfortunately they weren't gathered for quick
reference somewhere.

There are also old notes from Russ and tale here:
https://ftp.isc.org/usenet/CONFIG/HIERARCHY-NOTES

I'm wondering the best way to revive them, and integrate Adam's and
other people's valuable information about hierarchies.

I could easily parse HIERARCHY-NOTES and make the related information
available in the web pages of a hierarchy in usenet.trigofacile.com, as
a new item "History notes" for instance, just after the "Comments" from
control.ctl. The problem however is that all the hierarchies listed in
HIERARCHY-NOTES are not referenced in ftp.isc.org files. Should I then
just add them in "Defunct hierarchies" with the "History notes" item?

Another possibility would be to add a "Hierarchy notes" web page with
the contents of HIERARCHY-NOTES (plus maybe also the Comments from
control.ctl to make the notes more complete).

Or implement both :)
They indeed both seem useful, with different use cases (looking at one
hierarchy or looking at the history of all of them).

I could then integrate in the notes every details Adam or others found
out these late years. (Unless they are more appropriate in control.ctl,
when speaking about rules for the processing of control articles.)

Any other thoughts welcome about how to best achieve that and revive the
hierarchy notes.

I have nothing of substance to offer, other than to say that as a
long time Usenet consumer (and occasional contributor) I truly
appreciate the efforts to maintain/improve the system.
--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Ted,

I have nothing of substance to offer, other than to say that as a
long time Usenet consumer (and occasional contributor) I truly
appreciate the efforts to maintain/improve the system.

Thanks for your message. Such feedback is naturally greatly appreciated :)
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aOn ne va jamais si loin que lorsque l'on ne sait pas o|| l'on va.-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi all,

Lots of valuable archaeology information have been sent in this
newsgroup for years but unfortunately they weren't gathered for quick reference somewhere.

There are also old notes from Russ and tale here:
-a https://ftp.isc.org/usenet/CONFIG/HIERARCHY-NOTES

Good news, I have finally taken the time to integrate that great work
from Russ and tale here:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/notes-about-hierarchies.html

The notes are also added in the web page of hierarchies listed in
control.ctl or with newsgroups in the ftp.isc.org newsgroups file.
(These are the ones with an active hyperlink in the above URL.)

I've rewritten the notes at the third person (using "tale" instead of
"I") for better clarity out of context.

The resulting text file is here:

https://github.com/Julien-Elie/usenet-hierarchies/blob/main/website/data/hierarchy-notes.txt


Naturally, if anyone has suggestions of additions now or anytime in the future, just drop a note here and I'll happily update the notes.


I'll integrate soon the latest information provided by Adam and Thomas
about mod.* and de.alt.* so as to keep a trace.
And the information I have for microsoft.*, fr.* and france.* too.



Incidentally, I have a question about a sentence from the initial file:
"it would be good to extract the information in here about private and
defunct hierarchies and combine it with the hierarchies FAQ". Which FAQ
is it? I don't think it is the Hierarchy Administration FAQ. Is this
FAQ still posted somewhere in a newsgroup, or available at a URL?


Another question: I do not understand the wording "According to Alan
somebody in mail to me". Has anyone a clue of the intended meaning?
Would it be "According to Alan, somebody who emailed me"?

manawatu.*
For the Manawatu district of New Zealand. Contact news@manawatu.gen.nz
for more information. According to Alan somebody in mail to me on 5 Feb
1993, "... it's unlikely that you'll ever see any traffic on it"
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-a21.1.1 How to convert mSQL tools for MySQL?
1. Run the shell script msql2mysql on the source. This requires the
replace program, which is distributed with MySQL.
2. Compile.
3. Fix all compiler errors.-a-+ (MySQL online manual)
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien |eLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:

Incidentally, I have a question about a sentence from the initial file:
"it would be good to extract the information in here about private and defunct hierarchies and combine it with the hierarchies FAQ". Which FAQ
is it? I don't think it is the Hierarchy Administration FAQ. Is this
FAQ still posted somewhere in a newsgroup, or available at a URL?

I believe that was the predecessor of rone's unified control.ctl file,
which in turn was the predecessor of the current control-archive
control.ctl file.

Another question: I do not understand the wording "According to Alan
somebody in mail to me". Has anyone a clue of the intended meaning?
Would it be "According to Alan, somebody who emailed me"?

manawatu.*
For the Manawatu district of New Zealand. Contact
news@manawatu.gen.nz for more information. According to Alan somebody
in mail to me on 5 Feb 1993, "... it's unlikely that you'll ever see
any traffic on it"

I don't know for sure, but knowing the way that tale phrased things, my
guess is that means someone mailed him who used only "Alan" with no last
name in their From header.
--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien +LIE schrieb:

Good news, I have finally taken the time to integrate that great work
from Russ and tale here:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/notes-about-hierarchies.html

Thank you very much for your work!

Naturally, if anyone has suggestions of additions now or anytime in the future, just drop a note here and I'll happily update the notes.

Would it make sense to add the information from the - defunct - Master
List of Newsgroup Hierarchies? An archived version is available at <https://web.archive.org/web/20160407174854/http://pfx.ca/mlnh/mlnhtables.html>.

(That would allow me to cross that item off my ever-growing todo list. :))

-thh
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Russ,

Incidentally, I have a question about a sentence from the initial file:
"it would be good to extract the information in here about private and
defunct hierarchies and combine it with the hierarchies FAQ". Which FAQ
is it? I don't think it is the Hierarchy Administration FAQ. Is this
FAQ still posted somewhere in a newsgroup, or available at a URL?

I believe that was the predecessor of rone's unified control.ctl file,
which in turn was the predecessor of the current control-archive
control.ctl file.

OK, I can then remove that suggestion to produce a new comprehensive
guide to Usenet hierarchies as this FAQ is fairly outdated and you
already did a clean up when working on the new control.ctl file based on rone's work in early 2000s.

Another question: I do not understand the wording "According to Alan
somebody in mail to me". Has anyone a clue of the intended meaning?
Would it be "According to Alan, somebody who emailed me"?

manawatu.*
For the Manawatu district of New Zealand. Contact
news@manawatu.gen.nz for more information. According to Alan somebody
in mail to me on 5 Feb 1993, "... it's unlikely that you'll ever see
any traffic on it"

I don't know for sure, but knowing the way that tale phrased things, my
guess is that means someone mailed him who used only "Alan" with no last
name in their From header.

Thanks for the clarification. I've updated the phrasing.
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aLa science consiste |a passer d'un |-tonnement |a l'autre.-a-+ (Aristote) --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Thomas,

Would it make sense to add the information from the - defunct - Master
List of Newsgroup Hierarchies? An archived version is available at <https://web.archive.org/web/20160407174854/http://pfx.ca/mlnh/mlnhtables.html>.

I propose to merge that Master List into the descriptions of hierarchies currently extracted only from control.ctl:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Julien-Elie/usenet-hierarchies/main/nas/data/hierarchies/Description

And I can put a link to the newly merged list at the beginning of the miscellaneous hierarchy notes web page.

(That would allow me to cross that item off my ever-growing todo list. :))

:)
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aMa devise-a: une bonne sieste et au lit.-a-+ (Jean-Jacques Peroni)
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien +LIE wrote:

Would it make sense to add the information from the - defunct - Master
List of Newsgroup Hierarchies? An archived version is available at
<https://web.archive.org/web/20160407174854/http://pfx.ca/mlnh/mlnhtables.html>.

I propose to merge that Master List into the descriptions of hierarchies currently extracted only from control.ctl:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Julien-Elie/usenet-hierarchies/main/nas/data/hierarchies/Description

That seems to be a good idea!

Thanks,
-thh
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

Another question: I do not understand the wording "According to Alan
somebody in mail to me". Has anyone a clue of the intended meaning?
Would it be "According to Alan, somebody who emailed me"?

manawatu.*
For the Manawatu district of New Zealand. Contact
news@manawatu.gen.nz for more information. According to Alan somebody
in mail to me on 5 Feb 1993, "... it's unlikely that you'll ever see
any traffic on it"

I don't know for sure, but knowing the way that tale phrased things, my
guess is that means someone mailed him who used only "Alan" with no last
name in their From header.

This would have been Alan Brown who was involved in Manawatu Internet
Services

manawatu.gen.nz was their UUCP hub address.

Golly I feel old ;-)
--
Agency News | news.bbs.nz
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Kerr Avon,

manawatu.*
For the Manawatu district of New Zealand. Contact
news@manawatu.gen.nz for more information. According to Alan somebody
in mail to me on 5 Feb 1993, "... it's unlikely that you'll ever see
any traffic on it"

This would have been Alan Brown who was involved in Manawatu Internet Services

manawatu.gen.nz was their UUCP hub address.

Thanks, I have updated the notes for manawatu.*.
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/notes-about-hierarchies.html
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aCe qu'on est arriv|- |a faire avec le t|-l|-phone sans fil, va-t-on le
r|-ussir un jour avec les haricots-a?-a-+ (Philip Geluck)
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Thomas,

Would it make sense to add the information from the - defunct - Master
List of Newsgroup Hierarchies? An archived version is available at <https://web.archive.org/web/20160407174854/http://pfx.ca/mlnh/mlnhtables.html>.

(That would allow me to cross that item off my ever-growing todo list. :))

I've at last done that. We can both cross that item off :-)

I hope the result looks fine to you.

There are 397 additional hierarchies in the above master list that are
not present in control.ctl.

The merged view of control.ctl and the master list is here:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Julien-Elie/usenet-hierarchies/main/nas/data/hierarchies/Description

I've added a link to that merged view at the beginning of:
http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/notes-about-hierarchies.html



7 descriptions would be worthwhile updating for the next release of control.ctl. I've added a reminder there:
https://github.com/rra/control-archive/issues/5


Interestingly, I found out while doing the merge that 2 hierarchies
co-exist in the same namespace: Slovakian newsgroups, and regional Saskatchewan (Canada) newsgroups.
Here is an old discussion about that:
https://groups.google.com/g/sk.net.news/c/fGKu_UVpd-s




Question, in case someone knows: abg.* and affrc.* are listed in the
master list, but without any information. Does it remind you anything?
I've kept "?" for them but will update it as needed if someone has information.
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aChuck Norris once ran cd .. in / and it worked.-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien |eLIE in news.admin.hierarchies:

[...]

Question, in case someone knows: abg.* and affrc.* are listed in the
master list, but without any information. Does it remind you anything?
I've kept "?" for them but will update it as needed if someone has >information.

AFAIK, abg.* is the regional hierarchy (city hierarchy) for
Augsburg, DE. But I'm not fully sure about that.

Marcel
--
roCro< ro!roCro< ro!roCroCroCro< ro!roCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCro< ro!roCroCro< ro!roCroCroCroCroCroCro< ro!roCro<..67..
roe roe ro#roCroCroCro> ro#roCro< ro#roCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCro< ro#roCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCro< roe roe ro#roCroCro< ro#roCroCroCroCro> roe..67..
roe roe ro!roCroCroCroCroCro> ro!roCroCro< roe ro!roCroCroCroCroCro> roe roe ro!roCro< roe ..60..ro#roCroCroCro<
ro#roCroCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCroCroCroCro> ro#roCro> ro#roCroCro> ..64..ro#roCro<
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Marcel Logen <333200007110-0201@ybtra.de> wrote...

Julien |eLIE in news.admin.hierarchies:

Question, in case someone knows: abg.* and affrc.* are listed in the
master list, but without any information. Does it remind you anything? >>I've kept "?" for them but will update it as needed if someone has >>information.

AFAIK, abg.* is the regional hierarchy (city hierarchy) for
Augsburg, DE. But I'm not fully sure about that.

Can confirm. From my newsgroups file:

abg.allgemein Augsburg: Verschiedenes.
abg.test Augsburg: Nur so zu Testzwecken!
abg.witziges Augsburg: ... muss auch sein.

Don't ask me where I got that from, possibly stole it from uni-berlin,
but that was at least 20 years ago.

Christoph
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Marcel, Christoph,

AFAIK, abg.* is the regional hierarchy (city hierarchy) for
Augsburg, DE. But I'm not fully sure about that.

Can confirm.

Thanks for it, I've updated the description.
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aCe qui est fait n'est plus |a faire.-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

In message <umi0bf$236qn$1@news.trigofacile.com>, Julien +LIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes
<snip>

Question, in case someone knows: abg.* and affrc.* are listed in the
master list, but without any information. Does it remind you anything?
I've kept "?" for them but will update it as needed if someone has >information.

Going a Google search, the only match I could find for affrc was for the Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Research Council in Japan.

This web page:

http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/lib/newsgroups

lists the following newsgroups as being in the affrc hierarchy:

affrc.chat
affrc.meetings
affrc.misc
affrc.net
affrc.newsystems
affrc.sas
affrc.sys
affrc.test
affrc.trouble
affrc.wanted
--
John Hall
"Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people
from coughing."
Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83)
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Marcel Logen wrote:

AFAIK, abg.* is the regional hierarchy (city hierarchy) for
Augsburg, DE. But I'm not fully sure about that.

Yes, that's correct. See <https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=abg>.
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Thomas Hochstein in news.admin.hierarchies:

Marcel Logen wrote:

AFAIK, abg.* is the regional hierarchy (city hierarchy) for
Augsburg, DE. But I'm not fully sure about that.

Yes, that's correct. See <https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=abg>.

Thank you, Thomas.

BTW a correction:

| Beschreibung Ausgburg,Germany
^^ ^^

Marcel
--
ro!roCroCroCroCroCroCroCro< ro!roCroCroCro< ro!roCro< ro!roCroCroCroCro< ro!roCroCroCroCroCroCroCro< ..67..
roe ro#roCroCro< ro#roCro< roe ro!roCroCro< ..37..roe ro#roCroCro> ro!roCro> roe ro!roCroCroCroCro> ro!roCro<
ro#roCroCro< ro!roCroCroCroCro> ro!roCroCro> ro#roCro> ro#roCroCro< ro!roCro< ro!roCroCro< ro#roCro< ro!roCro> ro!roCroCro> ro#roCro< ro!roCroCro> ro#roC
ro!roCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCro> ro#roCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCroCro> ro#roCroCroCro>..67..
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Marcel Logen wrote:

BTW a correction:

| Beschreibung Ausgburg,Germany
^^ ^^

Yeah, that does look a bit broken ... Fixed.
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Thomas,

See <https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=abg>.

I did not know that web site. Very great work, and useful for an
overview of German-speaking hierarchies.

https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=bln&lang=en
You may want to update the date of the latest checkgroups for bln.* and
add information about its new PGP-managed status.


Incidentally, in the control.ctl file, there is:

## BDA (German groups?)
checkgroups:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
newgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
rmgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit

bda.config Config fuer News der BDA.
bda.forum.bda Forum der BDA.
bda.forum.hfa Diskussionforum fuer die Heldenfussallee (Internet Soap
Opera)
bda.forum.jp Diskussion ueber Beitraege des Journalisten Pools. bda.forum.zeit.feuilleton Debatte kultureller Themen aller Arten. bda.forum.zeit.job Praktika und Job-Tips.
bda.forum.zeit.kolumnen Kolumnen aus der ZEIT.
bda.forum.zeit.thema Diskussionen ums woechentliche ZEIT-Thema.
bda.jp.misc Artikel des Journalisten Pools.
bda.news Neuigkeiten zur BDA.
bda.test Tests der BDA.



This hierarchy is not listed in your web site. Does it sound something
to you?
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aInter pradendum sit saepe parumque bibendum.-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi John,

Doing a Google search, the only match I could find for affrc was for the Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries Research Council in Japan.

Thanks for your research. I've added that information for affrc.* and
put a question mark at the end as we're not 100% sure.
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aLife is shortrCa so eat dessert first!-a-+
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien +LIE wrote (on 2004-01-07):

See <https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=abg>.

I did not know that web site. Very great work, and useful for an
overview of German-speaking hierarchies.

Yeah, unfortunately a bit out of date; I've got a list of hierarchies and
other hints to check out stashed somewhere [1], but didn't get round to
that after bringing the site online in 2010, and then I somehow never got
back to that.

https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=bln&lang=en
You may want to update the date of the latest checkgroups for bln.* and
add information about its new PGP-managed status.

Thanks, done!

## BDA (German groups?)
checkgroups:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
newgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
rmgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit

That's a new one. I'll look into that.

This hierarchy is not listed in your web site. Does it sound something
to you?

Yes, thanks!

-thh

[1] Found it! <https://wiki.th-h.de/notes:usenethierarchies>
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

I wrote:

Julien +LIE wrote (on 2024-01-07):

## BDA (German groups?)
checkgroups:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
newgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit
rmgroup:news@*netuse.de:bda.*:doit

That's a new one. I'll look into that.

Fascinating.

"BDA" is an abbreviation for "Bundesdatenautobahn", which translates to "Federal Data Highway". That in turn was - AFAICT - a kind of joint
venture of Spacenet GmbH (Munich), "Gesellschaft fuer Telekommunikation
und Netzwerkdienste (GTN)" , Point of Presence GmbH (Hamburg), Netuse GmbH (Kiel) and one other participant to promote the World Wide Web as a kind
of "Information Superhighway" in 1995/1996. The "Federal Data Highway" (or "Federal Information Superhighway") had "access ramps" in those cities and brought businesses and media (e.g. parts of the Spiegel) online.

<https://de-regio.de/show.php?hierarchy=bda>

-thh
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Julien +LIE wrote:

Would it make sense to add the information from the - defunct - Master
List of Newsgroup Hierarchies? An archived version is available at
<https://web.archive.org/web/20160407174854/http://pfx.ca/mlnh/mlnhtables.html>.

(That would allow me to cross that item off my ever-growing todo list. :))

I've at last done that. We can both cross that item off :-)

Thanks. :-)

I hope the result looks fine to you.

Yes, that was really helpful.

The merged view of control.ctl and the master list is here:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Julien-Elie/usenet-hierarchies/main/nas/data/hierarchies/Description

Linked from <https://de-regio.de/index.php#links>.

-thh
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: news.admin.hierarchies

Hi Thomas,

## BDA (German groups?)

Fascinating.

"BDA" is an abbreviation for "Bundesdatenautobahn", which translates to "Federal Data Highway".

[...]

Thanks for your feedback and the update of your web site!
--
Julien |eLIE

-2-aPour aller plus vite, j'additionne toujours de bas en haut-a: je fais
du m|-me coup l'addition et la preuve.-a-+ (Aur|-lien Scholl)
--- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2