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  • why are db5 and pcre being installed as dependencies in pkgs from -current pkg.f.o

    From void@void@f-m.fm to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Fri May 29 14:24:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    Hi,

    As title. Both of these packages are depreciated. If installed and
    pkg audit -Fr is run, they'll both generate errors.
    For db5 it'll suggest db18. For pcre it'll suggest pcre2.

    Why, on the pkg cluster, are packages still being built against them?
    This is for url: "pkg+https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest"
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  • From Thierry Thomas@thierry@freebsd.org to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Fri May 29 15:57:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports


    --16Z5Wd3umXUTvIaG
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Le ven. 29 mai 26 =C3=A0 15:24:56 +0200, void <void@f-m.fm>
    =C3=A9crivait=C2=A0:
    Hi,
    =20
    As title. Both of these packages are depreciated. If installed and
    pkg audit -Fr is run, they'll both generate errors.
    For db5 it'll suggest db18. For pcre it'll suggest pcre2.

    $ pkg rquery %ro db5
    databases/evolution-data-server
    news/inn
    news/inn-current
    net-p2p/namecoin
    devel/ice
    lang/clisp
    dns/dnshistory
    dns/fastresolve
    graphics/fortytwo
    databases/fortytwo-bdb
    lang/gnu-cobol
    mail/greyfix
    security/heimdal
    misc/hotkeys
    net-p2p/namecoin-daemon
    databases/p5-BerkeleyDB
    databases/p5-BDB
    chinese/p5-Lingua-ZH-TaBE
    textproc/p5-RDFStore
    devel/py-ice
    databases/py-berkeleydb
    databases/ruby-bdb
    www/squidguard
    mail/spmfilter
    chinese/libtabe

    `pkg rquery %ro pcre' return a much bigger list!

    These ports are waiting to be fixed=E2=80=A6
    --=20
    Th. Thomas.

    --16Z5Wd3umXUTvIaG
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  • From void@void@f-m.fm to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Fri May 29 15:03:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 03:57:35PM +0200, Thierry Thomas wrote:

    $ pkg rquery %ro db5

    Thanks, I've noted that command now in my .tcshrc for future use
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  • From Mark Millard@marklmi@yahoo.com to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Fri May 29 09:15:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On 5/29/26 06:24, void wrote:
    Hi,

    As title. Both of these packages are depreciated. If installed and
    pkg audit -Fr is run, they'll both generate errors.
    For db5 it'll suggest db18. For pcre it'll suggest pcre2.

    Why, on the pkg cluster, are packages still being built against them?
    This is for url: "pkg+https://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest"

    ) The package cluster always lags almost every the commit.

    ) The package build machines synchronize their ports trees
    in ways that use the same tree on multiple builders, despite
    notable differences in build times on various machines.

    ) Thus a package bulk build normally starts with a somewhat old
    ports tree and by the time it is done building, that ports
    tree is even older.

    ) This is a bigger issue for "latest" than for "quarterly"
    because "latest" builds far more per bulk run generally and
    such takes longer on any specific builder.

    ) There is also the time to get the updates to the distribution
    servers around the world after the build. Sometimes that is
    another notable delay.

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .
    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com


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  • From void@void@f-m.fm to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sat May 30 14:15:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be >surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30
    --


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  • From Mark Millard@marklmi@yahoo.com to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sat May 30 12:44:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be
    surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are
    updated, for sure . . .

    That FreeBSD never disabled or deleted those ports tells me that folks
    were not willing/able to deal with the related handling (updating or disabling/deleting) of some or all of:

    (Note: these might not include the full transitive closure of what all
    ends up dependent via what is listed.)

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" devel/pcre | sort -u
    audio/libmp3splt
    audio/vimpc
    audio/zrythm
    benchmarks/octave-forge-benchmark
    biology/ncbi-cxx-toolkit
    databases/dbtool
    databases/sqlite-ext-pcre
    deskutils/hs-arbtt
    deskutils/xneur
    devel/aifad
    devel/bitkeeper
    devel/coccinelle
    devel/cppcheck
    devel/libast
    devel/libklel
    devel/libr3
    devel/libslang2
    devel/ocaml-pcre
    devel/regexx
    devel/shedskin
    devel/swig40
    devel/tup
    dns/dnshistory
    editors/mp
    editors/ted
    emulators/open-simh
    emulators/xcpc
    games/ezquake
    games/ivan
    games/ldmud
    games/mvdsv
    graphics/blender4
    graphics/gource
    graphics/opencollada
    lang/crystal
    lang/nim
    mail/cyrus-imapd25
    mail/cyrus-imapd30
    mail/cyrus-imapd32
    mail/cyrus-imapd34
    mail/cyrus-imapd36
    mail/cyrus-imapd38
    mail/rmilter
    mail/sentinel
    math/cadabra2
    math/octave
    math/octave-forge-actuarial
    math/octave-forge-apa
    math/octave-forge-audio
    math/octave-forge-automatic-differentiation
    math/octave-forge-bim
    math/octave-forge-bioinfo
    math/octave-forge-biosig
    math/octave-forge-bsltl
    math/octave-forge-cfitsio
    math/octave-forge-cgi
    math/octave-forge-civil-engineering
    math/octave-forge-coder
    math/octave-forge-communications
    math/octave-forge-control
    math/octave-forge-csg-dataset
    math/octave-forge-csg-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-dataframe
    math/octave-forge-datatypes
    math/octave-forge-dicom
    math/octave-forge-divand
    math/octave-forge-doctest
    math/octave-forge-fda
    math/octave-forge-femoctave
    math/octave-forge-fenv
    math/octave-forge-fileio
    math/octave-forge-financial
    math/octave-forge-fl-core
    math/octave-forge-fpl
    math/octave-forge-fuzzy-logic-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-fxp
    math/octave-forge-ga
    math/octave-forge-general
    math/octave-forge-generate_html
    math/octave-forge-geographiclib
    math/octave-forge-geometry
    math/octave-forge-gsl
    math/octave-forge-hdf5oct
    math/octave-forge-ident
    math/octave-forge-image
    math/octave-forge-instrument-control
    math/octave-forge-integration
    math/octave-forge-internal-fluid-flow
    math/octave-forge-interval
    math/octave-forge-io
    math/octave-forge-joystick
    math/octave-forge-linear-algebra
    math/octave-forge-llms
    math/octave-forge-lssa
    math/octave-forge-ltfat
    math/octave-forge-mapping
    math/octave-forge-matgeom
    math/octave-forge-mboct-fem-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-mbdyn-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-numerical-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-octave-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mccabe-thiele
    math/octave-forge-miscellaneous
    math/octave-forge-missing-functions
    math/octave-forge-mqtt
    math/octave-forge-msh
    math/octave-forge-multicore
    math/octave-forge-mvn
    math/octave-forge-mysql
    math/octave-forge-nan
    math/octave-forge-ncarray
    math/octave-forge-netcdf
    math/octave-forge-nurbs
    math/octave-forge-oct2mat
    math/octave-forge-octave-pool
    math/octave-forge-octave_boost
    math/octave-forge-octave_ffmpeg_free
    math/octave-forge-octave_mermaid_js
    math/octave-forge-octave_php_wrapper
    math/octave-forge-octave_tar
    math/octave-forge-octave_zstd
    math/octave-forge-octclip
    math/octave-forge-octproj
    math/octave-forge-odbc
    math/octave-forge-odebvp
    math/octave-forge-optics
    math/octave-forge-optim
    math/octave-forge-optiminterp
    math/octave-forge-outliers
    math/octave-forge-parallel
    math/octave-forge-pde1dm
    math/octave-forge-pkg-octave-doc
    math/octave-forge-ponchon-savarit
    math/octave-forge-prompt
    math/octave-forge-psychrometrics
    math/octave-forge-pythonic
    math/octave-forge-quaternion
    math/octave-forge-queueing
    math/octave-forge-rf
    math/octave-forge-rtree
    math/octave-forge-secs1d
    math/octave-forge-secs2d
    math/octave-forge-secs3d
    math/octave-forge-signal
    math/octave-forge-simp
    math/octave-forge-sockets
    math/octave-forge-sole
    math/octave-forge-sparsersb
    math/octave-forge-special-matrix
    math/octave-forge-splines
    math/octave-forge-sqlite
    math/octave-forge-statistics
    math/octave-forge-statistics-resampling
    math/octave-forge-stk
    math/octave-forge-strings
    math/octave-forge-struct
    math/octave-forge-symbolic
    math/octave-forge-tablicious
    math/octave-forge-tcl-octave
    math/octave-forge-timer
    math/octave-forge-tsa
    math/octave-forge-velas
    math/octave-forge-video
    math/octave-forge-websockets
    math/octave-forge-zenity
    math/octave-forge-zeromq
    math/scilab
    misc/wmweather+
    net-mgmt/aircrack-ng
    net-mgmt/grepip
    net-mgmt/kismet
    net-mgmt/pads
    net-mgmt/xymon-server
    net-mgmt/yaf
    net/freeswitch
    net/haproxy24
    net/honeyd
    net/libyang
    net/megacmd
    net/pacemaker2
    net/pecl-oauth2
    net/tinyfugue
    science/paraview
    science/zotero
    security/bsmtrace3
    security/ftimes
    security/hydra
    security/libprelude
    security/libpreludedb
    security/pev
    security/snort
    sysutils/ccze
    sysutils/cfengine
    sysutils/cfengine-devel
    sysutils/cfengine-lts
    sysutils/cfengine324
    sysutils/cfengine325
    sysutils/cfengine326
    sysutils/cfengine327
    sysutils/ftwin
    sysutils/ganglia-monitor-core
    sysutils/gsmartcontrol
    sysutils/hardlink
    sysutils/metalog
    sysutils/rdup
    sysutils/watchman
    textproc/cgrep
    textproc/modlogan
    textproc/py-pyscss
    textproc/the_silver_searcher
    www/angie-module-lua
    www/c-icap
    www/cas
    www/e2guardian
    www/hypermail
    www/kannel
    www/kannel-sqlbox
    www/kf5-kjs
    www/mod_auth_cas
    www/nginx-full
    www/openresty
    www/rejik
    www/sarg
    www/trafficserver
    x11-wm/compton

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" databases/db18 | sort -u
    comms/xastir
    devel/rsvndump
    editors/nvi2
    mail/vacation
    net-p2p/litecoin
    net-p2p/litecoin-daemon
    net-p2p/litecoin-utils
    net/netatalk4
    security/pks
    www/crawl


    For reference:

    The context for the above is: main amd64, aarch64 might be somewhat
    different, for example.
    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com


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  • From Mark Millard@marklmi@yahoo.com to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sat May 30 13:20:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On 5/30/26 12:44, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be
    surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by
    https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are
    updated, for sure . . .

    That FreeBSD never disabled or deleted those ports tells me that folks
    were not willing/able to deal with the related handling (updating or disabling/deleting) of some or all of:

    (Note: these might not include the full transitive closure of what all
    ends up dependent via what is listed.)

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" devel/pcre | sort -u
    audio/libmp3splt
    audio/vimpc
    audio/zrythm
    benchmarks/octave-forge-benchmark
    biology/ncbi-cxx-toolkit
    databases/dbtool
    databases/sqlite-ext-pcre
    deskutils/hs-arbtt
    deskutils/xneur
    devel/aifad
    devel/bitkeeper
    devel/coccinelle
    devel/cppcheck
    devel/libast
    devel/libklel
    devel/libr3
    devel/libslang2
    devel/ocaml-pcre
    devel/regexx
    devel/shedskin
    devel/swig40
    devel/tup
    dns/dnshistory
    editors/mp
    editors/ted
    emulators/open-simh
    emulators/xcpc
    games/ezquake
    games/ivan
    games/ldmud
    games/mvdsv
    graphics/blender4
    graphics/gource
    graphics/opencollada
    lang/crystal
    lang/nim
    mail/cyrus-imapd25
    mail/cyrus-imapd30
    mail/cyrus-imapd32
    mail/cyrus-imapd34
    mail/cyrus-imapd36
    mail/cyrus-imapd38
    mail/rmilter
    mail/sentinel
    math/cadabra2
    math/octave
    math/octave-forge-actuarial
    math/octave-forge-apa
    math/octave-forge-audio
    math/octave-forge-automatic-differentiation
    math/octave-forge-bim
    math/octave-forge-bioinfo
    math/octave-forge-biosig
    math/octave-forge-bsltl
    math/octave-forge-cfitsio
    math/octave-forge-cgi
    math/octave-forge-civil-engineering
    math/octave-forge-coder
    math/octave-forge-communications
    math/octave-forge-control
    math/octave-forge-csg-dataset
    math/octave-forge-csg-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-dataframe
    math/octave-forge-datatypes
    math/octave-forge-dicom
    math/octave-forge-divand
    math/octave-forge-doctest
    math/octave-forge-fda
    math/octave-forge-femoctave
    math/octave-forge-fenv
    math/octave-forge-fileio
    math/octave-forge-financial
    math/octave-forge-fl-core
    math/octave-forge-fpl
    math/octave-forge-fuzzy-logic-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-fxp
    math/octave-forge-ga
    math/octave-forge-general
    math/octave-forge-generate_html
    math/octave-forge-geographiclib
    math/octave-forge-geometry
    math/octave-forge-gsl
    math/octave-forge-hdf5oct
    math/octave-forge-ident
    math/octave-forge-image
    math/octave-forge-instrument-control
    math/octave-forge-integration
    math/octave-forge-internal-fluid-flow
    math/octave-forge-interval
    math/octave-forge-io
    math/octave-forge-joystick
    math/octave-forge-linear-algebra
    math/octave-forge-llms
    math/octave-forge-lssa
    math/octave-forge-ltfat
    math/octave-forge-mapping
    math/octave-forge-matgeom
    math/octave-forge-mboct-fem-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-mbdyn-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-numerical-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-octave-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mccabe-thiele
    math/octave-forge-miscellaneous
    math/octave-forge-missing-functions
    math/octave-forge-mqtt
    math/octave-forge-msh
    math/octave-forge-multicore
    math/octave-forge-mvn
    math/octave-forge-mysql
    math/octave-forge-nan
    math/octave-forge-ncarray
    math/octave-forge-netcdf
    math/octave-forge-nurbs
    math/octave-forge-oct2mat
    math/octave-forge-octave-pool
    math/octave-forge-octave_boost
    math/octave-forge-octave_ffmpeg_free
    math/octave-forge-octave_mermaid_js
    math/octave-forge-octave_php_wrapper
    math/octave-forge-octave_tar
    math/octave-forge-octave_zstd
    math/octave-forge-octclip
    math/octave-forge-octproj
    math/octave-forge-odbc
    math/octave-forge-odebvp
    math/octave-forge-optics
    math/octave-forge-optim
    math/octave-forge-optiminterp
    math/octave-forge-outliers
    math/octave-forge-parallel
    math/octave-forge-pde1dm
    math/octave-forge-pkg-octave-doc
    math/octave-forge-ponchon-savarit
    math/octave-forge-prompt
    math/octave-forge-psychrometrics
    math/octave-forge-pythonic
    math/octave-forge-quaternion
    math/octave-forge-queueing
    math/octave-forge-rf
    math/octave-forge-rtree
    math/octave-forge-secs1d
    math/octave-forge-secs2d
    math/octave-forge-secs3d
    math/octave-forge-signal
    math/octave-forge-simp
    math/octave-forge-sockets
    math/octave-forge-sole
    math/octave-forge-sparsersb
    math/octave-forge-special-matrix
    math/octave-forge-splines
    math/octave-forge-sqlite
    math/octave-forge-statistics
    math/octave-forge-statistics-resampling
    math/octave-forge-stk
    math/octave-forge-strings
    math/octave-forge-struct
    math/octave-forge-symbolic
    math/octave-forge-tablicious
    math/octave-forge-tcl-octave
    math/octave-forge-timer
    math/octave-forge-tsa
    math/octave-forge-velas
    math/octave-forge-video
    math/octave-forge-websockets
    math/octave-forge-zenity
    math/octave-forge-zeromq
    math/scilab
    misc/wmweather+
    net-mgmt/aircrack-ng
    net-mgmt/grepip
    net-mgmt/kismet
    net-mgmt/pads
    net-mgmt/xymon-server
    net-mgmt/yaf
    net/freeswitch
    net/haproxy24
    net/honeyd
    net/libyang
    net/megacmd
    net/pacemaker2
    net/pecl-oauth2
    net/tinyfugue
    science/paraview
    science/zotero
    security/bsmtrace3
    security/ftimes
    security/hydra
    security/libprelude
    security/libpreludedb
    security/pev
    security/snort
    sysutils/ccze
    sysutils/cfengine
    sysutils/cfengine-devel
    sysutils/cfengine-lts
    sysutils/cfengine324
    sysutils/cfengine325
    sysutils/cfengine326
    sysutils/cfengine327
    sysutils/ftwin
    sysutils/ganglia-monitor-core
    sysutils/gsmartcontrol
    sysutils/hardlink
    sysutils/metalog
    sysutils/rdup
    sysutils/watchman
    textproc/cgrep
    textproc/modlogan
    textproc/py-pyscss
    textproc/the_silver_searcher
    www/angie-module-lua
    www/c-icap
    www/cas
    www/e2guardian
    www/hypermail
    www/kannel
    www/kannel-sqlbox
    www/kf5-kjs
    www/mod_auth_cas
    www/nginx-full
    www/openresty
    www/rejik
    www/sarg
    www/trafficserver
    x11-wm/compton

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" databases/db18 | sort -u
    comms/xastir
    devel/rsvndump
    editors/nvi2
    mail/vacation
    net-p2p/litecoin
    net-p2p/litecoin-daemon
    net-p2p/litecoin-utils
    net/netatalk4
    security/pks
    www/crawl


    For reference:

    The context for the above is: main amd64, aarch64 might be somewhat different, for example.



    Also, at least one notation indicates some explicit references:

    # grep -r bdb:5 /usr/ports/ | sort -u
    /usr/ports/devel/apr1/Makefile:BDB5_USES= bdb:5 /usr/ports/mail/greyfix/Makefile:USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/net-p2p/namecoin/Makefile:WALLET_USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/security/heimdal/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5 localbase /usr/ports/textproc/redland/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5


    And then there are the defaults, which is probably what your original
    wording was about but I guessed incorrectly about that intent:

    # grep -ri -e bdb -e db5 /usr/ports/Mk/ | grep 5 | sort -u /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:# necessary (db5 if compatible).
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:. if ${_BDB_VER} == 5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_CXX_NAME= db_cxx-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_DIR= ${LOCALBASE}/lib/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_NAME= db-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_BDB_OLDPLUSVERS=4+ 40+ 41+ 42+ 43+ 44+ 45+
    46+ 47+ 48+
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_bdb_ARGS:= 5+ /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_DEPENDS= libdb-5.3.so:databases/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_FIND= ${LOCALBASE}/include/db5/db.h /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/dbus-testing.mk: . . . (ingore this one) . . . /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.default-versions.mk:BDB_DEFAULT?= 5 /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.options.desc.mk:BDB1_DESC?= Berkeley DB 1.85 support
    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com


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    Posted automagically by a mail2news gateway at muc.de e.V.
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    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tomoaki AOKI@junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sun May 31 09:29:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On Sat, 30 May 2026 13:20:46 -0700
    Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> wrote:

    On 5/30/26 12:44, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be >>> surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by
    https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are updated, for sure . . .

    That FreeBSD never disabled or deleted those ports tells me that folks
    were not willing/able to deal with the related handling (updating or disabling/deleting) of some or all of:

    (Note: these might not include the full transitive closure of what all
    ends up dependent via what is listed.)

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" devel/pcre | sort -u
    audio/libmp3splt
    audio/vimpc
    audio/zrythm
    benchmarks/octave-forge-benchmark
    biology/ncbi-cxx-toolkit
    databases/dbtool
    databases/sqlite-ext-pcre
    deskutils/hs-arbtt
    deskutils/xneur
    devel/aifad
    devel/bitkeeper
    devel/coccinelle
    devel/cppcheck
    devel/libast
    devel/libklel
    devel/libr3
    devel/libslang2
    devel/ocaml-pcre
    devel/regexx
    devel/shedskin
    devel/swig40
    devel/tup
    dns/dnshistory
    editors/mp
    editors/ted
    emulators/open-simh
    emulators/xcpc
    games/ezquake
    games/ivan
    games/ldmud
    games/mvdsv
    graphics/blender4
    graphics/gource
    graphics/opencollada
    lang/crystal
    lang/nim
    mail/cyrus-imapd25
    mail/cyrus-imapd30
    mail/cyrus-imapd32
    mail/cyrus-imapd34
    mail/cyrus-imapd36
    mail/cyrus-imapd38
    mail/rmilter
    mail/sentinel
    math/cadabra2
    math/octave
    math/octave-forge-actuarial
    math/octave-forge-apa
    math/octave-forge-audio
    math/octave-forge-automatic-differentiation
    math/octave-forge-bim
    math/octave-forge-bioinfo
    math/octave-forge-biosig
    math/octave-forge-bsltl
    math/octave-forge-cfitsio
    math/octave-forge-cgi
    math/octave-forge-civil-engineering
    math/octave-forge-coder
    math/octave-forge-communications
    math/octave-forge-control
    math/octave-forge-csg-dataset
    math/octave-forge-csg-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-dataframe
    math/octave-forge-datatypes
    math/octave-forge-dicom
    math/octave-forge-divand
    math/octave-forge-doctest
    math/octave-forge-fda
    math/octave-forge-femoctave
    math/octave-forge-fenv
    math/octave-forge-fileio
    math/octave-forge-financial
    math/octave-forge-fl-core
    math/octave-forge-fpl
    math/octave-forge-fuzzy-logic-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-fxp
    math/octave-forge-ga
    math/octave-forge-general
    math/octave-forge-generate_html
    math/octave-forge-geographiclib
    math/octave-forge-geometry
    math/octave-forge-gsl
    math/octave-forge-hdf5oct
    math/octave-forge-ident
    math/octave-forge-image
    math/octave-forge-instrument-control
    math/octave-forge-integration
    math/octave-forge-internal-fluid-flow
    math/octave-forge-interval
    math/octave-forge-io
    math/octave-forge-joystick
    math/octave-forge-linear-algebra
    math/octave-forge-llms
    math/octave-forge-lssa
    math/octave-forge-ltfat
    math/octave-forge-mapping
    math/octave-forge-matgeom
    math/octave-forge-mboct-fem-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-mbdyn-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-numerical-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-octave-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mccabe-thiele
    math/octave-forge-miscellaneous
    math/octave-forge-missing-functions
    math/octave-forge-mqtt
    math/octave-forge-msh
    math/octave-forge-multicore
    math/octave-forge-mvn
    math/octave-forge-mysql
    math/octave-forge-nan
    math/octave-forge-ncarray
    math/octave-forge-netcdf
    math/octave-forge-nurbs
    math/octave-forge-oct2mat
    math/octave-forge-octave-pool
    math/octave-forge-octave_boost
    math/octave-forge-octave_ffmpeg_free
    math/octave-forge-octave_mermaid_js
    math/octave-forge-octave_php_wrapper
    math/octave-forge-octave_tar
    math/octave-forge-octave_zstd
    math/octave-forge-octclip
    math/octave-forge-octproj
    math/octave-forge-odbc
    math/octave-forge-odebvp
    math/octave-forge-optics
    math/octave-forge-optim
    math/octave-forge-optiminterp
    math/octave-forge-outliers
    math/octave-forge-parallel
    math/octave-forge-pde1dm
    math/octave-forge-pkg-octave-doc
    math/octave-forge-ponchon-savarit
    math/octave-forge-prompt
    math/octave-forge-psychrometrics
    math/octave-forge-pythonic
    math/octave-forge-quaternion
    math/octave-forge-queueing
    math/octave-forge-rf
    math/octave-forge-rtree
    math/octave-forge-secs1d
    math/octave-forge-secs2d
    math/octave-forge-secs3d
    math/octave-forge-signal
    math/octave-forge-simp
    math/octave-forge-sockets
    math/octave-forge-sole
    math/octave-forge-sparsersb
    math/octave-forge-special-matrix
    math/octave-forge-splines
    math/octave-forge-sqlite
    math/octave-forge-statistics
    math/octave-forge-statistics-resampling
    math/octave-forge-stk
    math/octave-forge-strings
    math/octave-forge-struct
    math/octave-forge-symbolic
    math/octave-forge-tablicious
    math/octave-forge-tcl-octave
    math/octave-forge-timer
    math/octave-forge-tsa
    math/octave-forge-velas
    math/octave-forge-video
    math/octave-forge-websockets
    math/octave-forge-zenity
    math/octave-forge-zeromq
    math/scilab
    misc/wmweather+
    net-mgmt/aircrack-ng
    net-mgmt/grepip
    net-mgmt/kismet
    net-mgmt/pads
    net-mgmt/xymon-server
    net-mgmt/yaf
    net/freeswitch
    net/haproxy24
    net/honeyd
    net/libyang
    net/megacmd
    net/pacemaker2
    net/pecl-oauth2
    net/tinyfugue
    science/paraview
    science/zotero
    security/bsmtrace3
    security/ftimes
    security/hydra
    security/libprelude
    security/libpreludedb
    security/pev
    security/snort
    sysutils/ccze
    sysutils/cfengine
    sysutils/cfengine-devel
    sysutils/cfengine-lts
    sysutils/cfengine324
    sysutils/cfengine325
    sysutils/cfengine326
    sysutils/cfengine327
    sysutils/ftwin
    sysutils/ganglia-monitor-core
    sysutils/gsmartcontrol
    sysutils/hardlink
    sysutils/metalog
    sysutils/rdup
    sysutils/watchman
    textproc/cgrep
    textproc/modlogan
    textproc/py-pyscss
    textproc/the_silver_searcher
    www/angie-module-lua
    www/c-icap
    www/cas
    www/e2guardian
    www/hypermail
    www/kannel
    www/kannel-sqlbox
    www/kf5-kjs
    www/mod_auth_cas
    www/nginx-full
    www/openresty
    www/rejik
    www/sarg
    www/trafficserver
    x11-wm/compton

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" databases/db18 | sort -u
    comms/xastir
    devel/rsvndump
    editors/nvi2
    mail/vacation
    net-p2p/litecoin
    net-p2p/litecoin-daemon
    net-p2p/litecoin-utils
    net/netatalk4
    security/pks
    www/crawl


    For reference:

    The context for the above is: main amd64, aarch64 might be somewhat different, for example.



    Also, at least one notation indicates some explicit references:

    # grep -r bdb:5 /usr/ports/ | sort -u /usr/ports/devel/apr1/Makefile:BDB5_USES= bdb:5 /usr/ports/mail/greyfix/Makefile:USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/net-p2p/namecoin/Makefile:WALLET_USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/security/heimdal/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5 localbase /usr/ports/textproc/redland/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5


    And then there are the defaults, which is probably what your original
    wording was about but I guessed incorrectly about that intent:

    # grep -ri -e bdb -e db5 /usr/ports/Mk/ | grep 5 | sort -u /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:# necessary (db5 if compatible).
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:. if ${_BDB_VER} == 5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_CXX_NAME= db_cxx-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_DIR= ${LOCALBASE}/lib/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_NAME= db-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_BDB_OLDPLUSVERS=4+ 40+ 41+ 42+ 43+ 44+ 45+
    46+ 47+ 48+
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_bdb_ARGS:= 5+ /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_DEPENDS= libdb-5.3.so:databases/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_FIND= ${LOCALBASE}/include/db5/db.h /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/dbus-testing.mk: . . . (ingore this one) . . . /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.default-versions.mk:BDB_DEFAULT?= 5 /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.options.desc.mk:BDB1_DESC?= Berkeley DB 1.85 support


    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com

    Putting pcre aside, replacing database usually is too much
    a pain as a non-database-developer user.

    # I'm not sure it applies or not, but if db18 can sanely
    # handle databases created by db5, everything below are
    # ignorable.

    If databases are "centralized", things could be easier
    (if ignoring temporary storage usages for conversion
    like on PostgreSQL major version upgrades), but for
    "distributed around" small databases like configs and
    caches, many end-users doesn't know where they're stored,
    thus, even if "how to convert" is provided on UPDATING,
    "where should I seek?" issues are too huge.

    The conversions won't progress unless each consumer apps
    provide auto-transition (without previous DB software!)
    on first boot after switch.

    Maybe this would be something like depending on both old
    and new DB, auto-convert to new one on first run (or per
    updates of DB entries) and drop old DB support at some
    point in the future. But it's on each upstream, unmanageable.

    # Or anyone succeeds to seek for creating ports that does
    # seek and convert everything the user running it can read/
    # write automatically and sanely.

    Regards.
    --
    Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>


    --
    Posted automagically by a mail2news gateway at muc.de e.V.
    Please direct questions, flames, donations, etc. to news-admin@muc.de
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Millard@marklmi@yahoo.com to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sat May 30 17:37:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On 5/30/26 13:20, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 12:44, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be >>>> surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by
    https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are
    updated, for sure . . .

    That FreeBSD never disabled or deleted those ports tells me that folks
    were not willing/able to deal with the related handling (updating or
    disabling/deleting) of some or all of:

    (Note: these might not include the full transitive closure of what all
    ends up dependent via what is listed.)

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" devel/pcre | sort -u
    audio/libmp3splt
    audio/vimpc
    audio/zrythm
    benchmarks/octave-forge-benchmark
    biology/ncbi-cxx-toolkit
    databases/dbtool
    databases/sqlite-ext-pcre
    deskutils/hs-arbtt
    deskutils/xneur
    devel/aifad
    devel/bitkeeper
    devel/coccinelle
    devel/cppcheck
    devel/libast
    devel/libklel
    devel/libr3
    devel/libslang2
    devel/ocaml-pcre
    devel/regexx
    devel/shedskin
    devel/swig40
    devel/tup
    dns/dnshistory
    editors/mp
    editors/ted
    emulators/open-simh
    emulators/xcpc
    games/ezquake
    games/ivan
    games/ldmud
    games/mvdsv
    graphics/blender4
    graphics/gource
    graphics/opencollada
    lang/crystal
    lang/nim
    mail/cyrus-imapd25
    mail/cyrus-imapd30
    mail/cyrus-imapd32
    mail/cyrus-imapd34
    mail/cyrus-imapd36
    mail/cyrus-imapd38
    mail/rmilter
    mail/sentinel
    math/cadabra2
    math/octave
    math/octave-forge-actuarial
    math/octave-forge-apa
    math/octave-forge-audio
    math/octave-forge-automatic-differentiation
    math/octave-forge-bim
    math/octave-forge-bioinfo
    math/octave-forge-biosig
    math/octave-forge-bsltl
    math/octave-forge-cfitsio
    math/octave-forge-cgi
    math/octave-forge-civil-engineering
    math/octave-forge-coder
    math/octave-forge-communications
    math/octave-forge-control
    math/octave-forge-csg-dataset
    math/octave-forge-csg-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-dataframe
    math/octave-forge-datatypes
    math/octave-forge-dicom
    math/octave-forge-divand
    math/octave-forge-doctest
    math/octave-forge-fda
    math/octave-forge-femoctave
    math/octave-forge-fenv
    math/octave-forge-fileio
    math/octave-forge-financial
    math/octave-forge-fl-core
    math/octave-forge-fpl
    math/octave-forge-fuzzy-logic-toolkit
    math/octave-forge-fxp
    math/octave-forge-ga
    math/octave-forge-general
    math/octave-forge-generate_html
    math/octave-forge-geographiclib
    math/octave-forge-geometry
    math/octave-forge-gsl
    math/octave-forge-hdf5oct
    math/octave-forge-ident
    math/octave-forge-image
    math/octave-forge-instrument-control
    math/octave-forge-integration
    math/octave-forge-internal-fluid-flow
    math/octave-forge-interval
    math/octave-forge-io
    math/octave-forge-joystick
    math/octave-forge-linear-algebra
    math/octave-forge-llms
    math/octave-forge-lssa
    math/octave-forge-ltfat
    math/octave-forge-mapping
    math/octave-forge-matgeom
    math/octave-forge-mboct-fem-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-mbdyn-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-numerical-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mboct-octave-pkg
    math/octave-forge-mccabe-thiele
    math/octave-forge-miscellaneous
    math/octave-forge-missing-functions
    math/octave-forge-mqtt
    math/octave-forge-msh
    math/octave-forge-multicore
    math/octave-forge-mvn
    math/octave-forge-mysql
    math/octave-forge-nan
    math/octave-forge-ncarray
    math/octave-forge-netcdf
    math/octave-forge-nurbs
    math/octave-forge-oct2mat
    math/octave-forge-octave-pool
    math/octave-forge-octave_boost
    math/octave-forge-octave_ffmpeg_free
    math/octave-forge-octave_mermaid_js
    math/octave-forge-octave_php_wrapper
    math/octave-forge-octave_tar
    math/octave-forge-octave_zstd
    math/octave-forge-octclip
    math/octave-forge-octproj
    math/octave-forge-odbc
    math/octave-forge-odebvp
    math/octave-forge-optics
    math/octave-forge-optim
    math/octave-forge-optiminterp
    math/octave-forge-outliers
    math/octave-forge-parallel
    math/octave-forge-pde1dm
    math/octave-forge-pkg-octave-doc
    math/octave-forge-ponchon-savarit
    math/octave-forge-prompt
    math/octave-forge-psychrometrics
    math/octave-forge-pythonic
    math/octave-forge-quaternion
    math/octave-forge-queueing
    math/octave-forge-rf
    math/octave-forge-rtree
    math/octave-forge-secs1d
    math/octave-forge-secs2d
    math/octave-forge-secs3d
    math/octave-forge-signal
    math/octave-forge-simp
    math/octave-forge-sockets
    math/octave-forge-sole
    math/octave-forge-sparsersb
    math/octave-forge-special-matrix
    math/octave-forge-splines
    math/octave-forge-sqlite
    math/octave-forge-statistics
    math/octave-forge-statistics-resampling
    math/octave-forge-stk
    math/octave-forge-strings
    math/octave-forge-struct
    math/octave-forge-symbolic
    math/octave-forge-tablicious
    math/octave-forge-tcl-octave
    math/octave-forge-timer
    math/octave-forge-tsa
    math/octave-forge-velas
    math/octave-forge-video
    math/octave-forge-websockets
    math/octave-forge-zenity
    math/octave-forge-zeromq
    math/scilab
    misc/wmweather+
    net-mgmt/aircrack-ng
    net-mgmt/grepip
    net-mgmt/kismet
    net-mgmt/pads
    net-mgmt/xymon-server
    net-mgmt/yaf
    net/freeswitch
    net/haproxy24
    net/honeyd
    net/libyang
    net/megacmd
    net/pacemaker2
    net/pecl-oauth2
    net/tinyfugue
    science/paraview
    science/zotero
    security/bsmtrace3
    security/ftimes
    security/hydra
    security/libprelude
    security/libpreludedb
    security/pev
    security/snort
    sysutils/ccze
    sysutils/cfengine
    sysutils/cfengine-devel
    sysutils/cfengine-lts
    sysutils/cfengine324
    sysutils/cfengine325
    sysutils/cfengine326
    sysutils/cfengine327
    sysutils/ftwin
    sysutils/ganglia-monitor-core
    sysutils/gsmartcontrol
    sysutils/hardlink
    sysutils/metalog
    sysutils/rdup
    sysutils/watchman
    textproc/cgrep
    textproc/modlogan
    textproc/py-pyscss
    textproc/the_silver_searcher
    www/angie-module-lua
    www/c-icap
    www/cas
    www/e2guardian
    www/hypermail
    www/kannel
    www/kannel-sqlbox
    www/kf5-kjs
    www/mod_auth_cas
    www/nginx-full
    www/openresty
    www/rejik
    www/sarg
    www/trafficserver
    x11-wm/compton

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" databases/db18 | sort -u

    I see on reading a reply that I listed the new db*, not db5.

    comms/xastir
    devel/rsvndump
    editors/nvi2
    mail/vacation
    net-p2p/litecoin
    net-p2p/litecoin-daemon
    net-p2p/litecoin-utils
    net/netatalk4
    security/pks
    www/crawl

    Trying again . . .

    # pkg rquery -r FreeBSD-ports "%ro" databases/db5 | sort -u
    chinese/libtabe
    chinese/p5-Lingua-ZH-TaBE
    databases/evolution-data-server
    databases/fortytwo-bdb
    databases/p5-BDB
    databases/p5-BerkeleyDB
    databases/py-berkeleydb
    databases/ruby-bdb
    devel/ice
    devel/py-ice
    dns/dnshistory
    dns/fastresolve
    graphics/fortytwo
    lang/clisp
    lang/gnu-cobol
    mail/greyfix
    mail/spmfilter
    misc/hotkeys
    net-p2p/namecoin
    net-p2p/namecoin-daemon
    news/inn
    news/inn-current
    security/heimdal
    textproc/p5-RDFStore
    www/squidguard



    For reference:

    The context for the above is: main amd64, aarch64 might be somewhat
    different, for example.



    Also, at least one notation indicates some explicit references:

    # grep -r bdb:5 /usr/ports/ | sort -u /usr/ports/devel/apr1/Makefile:BDB5_USES= bdb:5 /usr/ports/mail/greyfix/Makefile:USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/net-p2p/namecoin/Makefile:WALLET_USES= bdb:5+ /usr/ports/security/heimdal/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5 localbase /usr/ports/textproc/redland/Makefile:BDB_USES= bdb:5


    And then there are the defaults, which is probably what your original
    wording was about but I guessed incorrectly about that intent:

    # grep -ri -e bdb -e db5 /usr/ports/Mk/ | grep 5 | sort -u /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:# necessary (db5 if compatible).
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:. if ${_BDB_VER} == 5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_CXX_NAME= db_cxx-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_DIR= ${LOCALBASE}/lib/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:BDB_LIB_NAME= db-5.3 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_BDB_OLDPLUSVERS=4+ 40+ 41+ 42+ 43+ 44+ 45+
    46+ 47+ 48+
    /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:_bdb_ARGS:= 5+ /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_DEPENDS= libdb-5.3.so:databases/db5 /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/bdb.mk:db5_FIND= ${LOCALBASE}/include/db5/db.h /usr/ports/Mk/Uses/dbus-testing.mk: . . . (ingore this one) . . . /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.default-versions.mk:BDB_DEFAULT?= 5 /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.options.desc.mk:BDB1_DESC?= Berkeley DB 1.85 support


    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com


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  • From void@void@f-m.fm to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sun May 31 10:39:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On Sat, May 30, 2026 at 12:44:29PM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be
    surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by
    https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are
    updated, for sure . . .

    I acknowledge that it's possibly not really an issue in the hobbyist
    or abstract context. In a more professional context, one would build
    with options in poudriere. I was surprised to see such affected binaries on pkg.f.o though.
    --


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  • From Mark Millard@marklmi@yahoo.com to muc.lists.freebsd.ports on Sun May 31 18:09:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.ports

    On 5/31/26 02:39, void wrote:
    On Sat, May 30, 2026 at 12:44:29PM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:
    On 5/30/26 06:15, void wrote:
    On Fri, May 29, 2026 at 09:15:42AM -0700, Mark Millard wrote:

    Note: the above are general comments that suggest the result may not be >>>> surprising. I did not analyze the specifics for the timing related to
    db5 and pcre .

    pcre was EoL'd on 2021-06-21 going by
    https://www.pcre.org/original/changelog.txt
    and marked deprecated on 29 Feb 2024 in
    https://www.freshports.org/devel/pcre/

    db5, according to https://www.freshports.org/databases/db5/

    Deprecated: EOLd, potential security issues, maybe use db18 instead
    This port expired on: 2022-06-30

    The builders do not change what they build until after the ports are
    updated, for sure . . .

    I acknowledge that it's possibly not really an issue in the hobbyist
    or abstract context. In a more professional context, one would build
    with options in poudriere. I was surprised to see such affected binaries on pkg.f.o though.

    By "builders" I was referring to the official-build machines (beefy* and ampere* systems) and their poudriere-bulk based builds. They simply
    build was had been committed to the ports tree as of the snapshot of the
    ports tree they are using. Also, the definition of default options is:
    the options which the official-build machines are to build. To change
    the options for the official builds is: one changes the Makefile or
    related in the ports tree commits to have different defaults.

    For the issue at hand, such changes have not been made over the years.

    Build option defaults are not set up for any other folks building port-packages, except those willing to use those same defaults. All
    others must make their own adjustments in order to get other options.

    FreeBSD is supported mostly by volunteers. In some ways such folks are
    acting as hobbyists for what they choose to do vs. not do.
    --
    ===
    Mark Millard
    marklmi at yahoo.com


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