From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/7-states-water-cyberattacks-fbi/

They identified the threat to rCLprogrammable logic controllers,rCY
or PLCs, in water systems and urged infrastructure owners to
remove publicly exposed PLCs from the internet.

Michael McAandrews, a former special agent with the FBIrCOs
cyberteam, told NewsNation that these attacks are common and
can occur on a massive scale, with bad actors exploiting parts
of our critical infrastructure tied to the internet, possibly
with simple, default passwords.

rCLWhat happens is, the attackers will scan the internet, and theyrCOll
look for the signature of known devices. When they find one, they
simply try the default password. If it hasnrCOt been changed, then
theyrCOre in. When it comes to operational technology and things
like PLCs, a lot of these passwords are coded by the manufacturers,
and if theyrCOre exposed to the internet, that signature comes back,
the attackers immediately try it, and if they can get in, theyrCOll
get in and see what they can do,rCY he said.

McAndrews said there were no ransom demands, so it appears the
attacks were trying to stoke fear.

. . .

PLCs ... or the software used to diddle with them ?

Fair GUESS, we're looking at a bunch of entities that
were all sold the SAME control software. Find a way to
crack one and you can crack 'em all.

Note :

https://openautomationsoftware.com/knowledge-base/how-to-view-allenbradley-web-browser/

https://industrialmonitordirect.com/blogs/knowledgebase/displaying-plc-data-on-a-website-solutions-and-architectures

though not claiming either corp was involved here.

This was originally declared to be IRANIAN hacks, but
no supporting info. Iran does do cyber-war (and the
USA did cyberwar on Iran, most notably penetrating
the Siemens industrial process controller used on all
their uranium centrifuges - wrecking them). The odd
localization of water plants hit says "local actor"
more than "Iran".

The actual attackers - could be anyone. Mere 'anarchists'
or maybe some 12-year-old whose Daddy does IT work for
such facilities and got a glimpse of the manual.

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't
actually hack them directly. They're basically a
replacement for a box of relays or equivs. Software
PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make
a fair software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

But 'computers' CAN be hacked.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays or
equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair software
PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC? It amazed me to find that they still use the ladder logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch when they started showing up in the '70s.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-04 09:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays or
equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair software
PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC? It amazed me to find that they still use the ladder logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch when they started showing up in the '70s.

I did a training course on them on 2002 and they certainly taught me
ladder language (can be changed to text something). Coming from standard digital electronics, it is very weird on start, but then you grasp the
idea and it is very useful.

It would not surprise me that they can be connected "somehow" to the LAN
so that you can adjust parameters. Think of traffic lights, the city
control room adjusts the timings according to hour or actual traffic conditions. Or they can obtain data which you want to save on computers.

If you connect them to the LAN, you can naively connect them to
Internet. Saves moving your arse.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 04/08/2026 08:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays or
equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair software
PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC? It amazed me to find that they still use the ladder logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch when they started showing up in the '70s.

I would assume its a chip with inputs , outputs, containing a
programmable state table

So a state machine in silly con.
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 10:44:03 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I did a training course on them on 2002 and they certainly taught me
ladder language (can be changed to text something). Coming from standard digital electronics, it is very weird on start, but then you grasp the
idea and it is very useful.

When I started out I worked with physical relay logic. There were large
NEMA 12 cabinets filled with octal relays,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4_uSYorMQk

A timer required a 3 1/4" hole in the panel to mount it, enter the
Greenlee hydraulic hole punch. The schematic on the drawing board was a
ladder diagram. Debugging, so to speak, was done with a roll of 16 gauge
MW wire, strippers, and a screwdriver.

I never worked with PLCs and went directly to MCUs programmed either in assembler or FORTH. Despite its drawbacks FORTH is really useful for
creating a domain specific 'language'.

However industrial electricians had worked with relay logic for years,
were familiar with the schematics, and were adept at trouble shooting. I thought the ladder interface was to ease them into the brave new world but
it seems to have stuck. In it's way it was the original no-code IDE where
you drag boxes around and connect them with no idea of what code is being generated.

It would not surprise me that they can be connected "somehow" to the LAN
so that you can adjust parameters. Think of traffic lights, the city
control room adjusts the timings according to hour or actual traffic conditions. Or they can obtain data which you want to save on computers.

I doubt very much they are air gapped. A Mossad agent may have destroyed
the Iranian centrifuges with a thumb drive but no way are people sneaking
into multiple water plants.

There is a huge body of apocalyptic literature but those scenarios are fiction, aren't they?
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 11:14:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 08:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays
or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
"computers", oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a
fair software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC? It amazed me to find that they still use the
ladder logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch when they
started showing up in the '70s.

I would assume its a chip with inputs , outputs, containing a
programmable state table

So a state machine in silly con.

Relay logic always was very much a state machine. When the moving part
hits the limit switch, transition to the next state.

https://www.plctalk.net/forums/threads/eagle-signal-mta330a6-05-what-kind- of-plc-or-control-is-this.129042/

Steppers made it very obvious. An input, be it a timer, limit switch, or pushbutton, would advance the drum one step. The solenoid had a very large lead counterbalance that made a pleasing 'thunk'. No question about a
state change. Nubs on the cams determined which outputs were live for
every step.

The earlier Eagle Signal steppers required breaking out a tab on the cam
with needle nose pliers. Revising the programming required disassembling
the whole thing to replace the cam. Later some genius redesigned the cams
with removable nibs that snapped on the cam.

In the '70s the company I worked for built the controllers used for the sequenced airport landing lights (rabbit). The FAA, being rather slow
moving, specified steppers with the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled nylon TyWraps. Fortunately the girls, excuse me, female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays or
equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair software
PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC?

There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with
a lot of transistors.

Anyway, the GOAL is to replace those big boxes
full of mechanical relays ye and me both remember.

That "PLCs" are being BLAMED for these hacks - now
that's just bullshit. Modern PLCs are set up using
modern software - and THAT'S what's being hacked.

It amazed me to find that they still use the ladder
logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch
when they started showing up in the '70s.

Never loved "ladder logic" diagrams. I've DONE
it - in hardware and software - but it's not my
favored perspective. Pref a more straight-up,
logic-based, point of view. Yea yea, PLCs are
"simple" and "rugged" - BUT .......

IMHO, 'software' based PLCs are the only modern
way to go. Alas that also introduces vulnerabilities.

Industries NEED PLCs ... so much machinery that
needs coordination/logic.

Clicky-clicky-clicky ... DID kind of like those
old boxes full of relays :-)

Anyway, are PLCs responsible for all these nasty
hack in middle-America ? I don't think so. It's
the all-ONLINE paradigm instead.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays
or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
"computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC?

There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.

Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to a backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building
blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20- Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448

'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay logic...
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/4/26 13:53, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 10:44:03 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I did a training course on them on 2002 and they certainly taught me
ladder language (can be changed to text something). Coming from standard
digital electronics, it is very weird on start, but then you grasp the
idea and it is very useful.

I hate traditional "ladder" - just
doesn't grok very well. DO kinda
Get It, but ......

Anything I do from now on will be
uC/mP based. Even using Python the
challenge is a VERY low bar now and
easy to document.

When I started out I worked with physical relay logic. There were large
NEMA 12 cabinets filled with octal relays,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4_uSYorMQk

Heh - DO remember those. Even MADE versions,
albeit for often simpler needs. DO like the
clicky-click of the relays though. Logic
you can literally HEAR ! :-)

A timer required a 3 1/4" hole in the panel to mount it, enter the
Greenlee hydraulic hole punch. The schematic on the drawing board was a ladder diagram. Debugging, so to speak, was done with a roll of 16 gauge
MW wire, strippers, and a screwdriver.

I never worked with PLCs and went directly to MCUs programmed either in assembler or FORTH. Despite its drawbacks FORTH is really useful for
creating a domain specific 'language'.

FORTH can be very useful and simple. You can
run it on a fairly low-end microcontroller.

It's almost Gone Away these days - a mistake.
Damned 'academics' always over-complicate ...

Have a married-in relative, astronomer. He
is WELL versed in using FORTH to control
instruments. It's maybe all we have in common,
but it's something.

ALWAYS install a version of FORTH on every
platform I use. Haven't used it lately, but
it's THERE if I want it.

Odd compilers - look into "TCC" - a very
nice tiny 'C' compiler. CodeBlocks
understands it. Small/simple/fast code.

However industrial electricians had worked with relay logic for years,
were familiar with the schematics, and were adept at trouble shooting. I thought the ladder interface was to ease them into the brave new world but
it seems to have stuck. In it's way it was the original no-code IDE where
you drag boxes around and connect them with no idea of what code is being generated.

Relay logic isn't THAT transparent. If it's
really SIMPLE then yes ... but not when it
get really detailed. The common 'ladder'
diagrams - I find them NOT informative,
a poor rep of what's going on IMHO.

These days ... I'll use uC/computer logic
for controlling complex processes. No,
using Python or whatever is NOT too hard.
Joe Electrician may not get it, but the
equiv of a giant box of relays is NO
better. DONE those ...

Tutorials on-line always tell you about very
SIMPLE cases. It's not always like that.

It would not surprise me that they can be connected "somehow" to the LAN
so that you can adjust parameters. Think of traffic lights, the city
control room adjusts the timings according to hour or actual traffic
conditions. Or they can obtain data which you want to save on computers.

I doubt very much they are air gapped. A Mossad agent may have destroyed
the Iranian centrifuges with a thumb drive but no way are people sneaking into multiple water plants.

There is a huge body of apocalyptic literature but those scenarios are fiction, aren't they?

Ummm ... maybe NOT so much 'fiction' anymore ...

What can we DO about that, if anything ......

This is kind of an 'existential' issue now.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/4/26 14:07, rbowman wrote:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2026 11:14:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 08:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack >>>> them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays >>>> or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
"computers", oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a >>>> fair software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC? It amazed me to find that they still use the
ladder logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch when they
started showing up in the '70s.

I would assume its a chip with inputs , outputs, containing a
programmable state table

So a state machine in silly con.

Relay logic always was very much a state machine. When the moving part
hits the limit switch, transition to the next state.

https://www.plctalk.net/forums/threads/eagle-signal-mta330a6-05-what-kind- of-plc-or-control-is-this.129042/

Steppers made it very obvious. An input, be it a timer, limit switch, or pushbutton, would advance the drum one step. The solenoid had a very large lead counterbalance that made a pleasing 'thunk'. No question about a
state change. Nubs on the cams determined which outputs were live for
every step.

The earlier Eagle Signal steppers required breaking out a tab on the cam
with needle nose pliers. Revising the programming required disassembling
the whole thing to replace the cam. Later some genius redesigned the cams with removable nibs that snapped on the cam.

In the '70s the company I worked for built the controllers used for the sequenced airport landing lights (rabbit). The FAA, being rather slow
moving, specified steppers with the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled nylon TyWraps. Fortunately the girls, excuse me, female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in
THESE hacks. Sounds more like spoofing instrument
readings to cause downstream machinery to run
wild until it broke.

Still, my best guess, this is some 12-year-old
whose daddy does IT for these systems - and got
a good look at the manual.

The underlying prob is "Net Access" to all these
infrastructure systems. Yea, SEEMS all "modern",
someone in Virginia can monitor/run systems in
many states far away. SEEMS like a money-saver,
but, obviously, ISN'T.

"Infrastructure" should NOT be on-line - EVER.
Way TOO much damage can be done TOO easily.

But will anyone GET that ???

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/5/26 02:14, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack >>>> them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays >>>> or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
"computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC?

There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.

Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to a backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20- Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448

'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay logic...

Modern PLCs do not involve placing wires.

HAVE done that, but the new paradigm is
more 'software" or "software defined"

These cyber-attacks ... they seem to have
been aimed at a specific, widely used,
PLC/programmming paradigm. FAIR chance
nobody changed the default passwords.

Governments tend to copy OTHER nearby
govts ... "State/County X uses THIS and
thus this justifies US using X".'

Been there, seen this from the bureaucracy.
The IDEA is to cover their asses in case
something goes wrong. "We just did what
THEY did !!!". Yet another reason I retired.

It's all M$ Fault regardless, not OUR
fault !!!

Anyway, it was interesting to see "PLCs"
blamed. Sorry, it's NOT the PLCs but
WAY up the chain.

CyberIdiocy CAN destroy us.

What happens when they get into the power
plants, the NUKE power plants ???


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:

the wiring harness being laced rather than
using those new fangled nylon TyWraps. Fortunately the girls, excuse me, female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.

I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them
faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

- Leo Tolstoy


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 07:55, c186282 wrote:

"Infrastructure" should NOT be on-line - EVER.
-a Way TOO much damage can be done TOO easily.

-a But will anyone GET that ???

You might just as well say - given the Ukraine/Russia situation, that critical infrastructure should NOT be above ground, EVER.

Cost benefit dear boy. Stop binary thinking before it turns you into a
fanatic
--
rCLSome people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of rC?an airplane.rCY

Dennis Miller


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 07:14, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:

On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack >>>> them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays >>>> or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
"computers",
oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
software PLC. A low-end PI even better.

https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware

What's a hardware PLC?

There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.

Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to a backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20- Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448

'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay logic...

Today its probably easier to have e.g. an RP2030 in there.

Car ECMs are essentially state machines. For each combination of
sensors, there is an optimal set of output switches. And because memory
is easer to manufacture than PLCs they hold the whole engine state
machine map in NVRAM
--
Of what good are dead warriors? rCa Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory rCa The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 03:52:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Modern PLCs do not involve placing wires.

HAVE done that, but the new paradigm is more 'software" or "software
defined"

That was my point. PROGRAMMABLE logic controllers were PROGRAMMABLE and replaced solid state controllers that were a TTL version of relay logic.

Of course, when you are interfacing with the real world some wiring is necessary unless you go full wireless but that's another story.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery
to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of obsolete tech in US infrastructure.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 15:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery
to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Steppers all over the place. Default thing to drive car instruments
these days. And 3D printers. And laser printers.
--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-05, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 05/08/2026 15:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery >>> to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of
obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Steppers all over the place. Default thing to drive car instruments
these days. And 3D printers. And laser printers.

Sounds like the apparent disagreement might be a matter of which
kind of "stepper" each party is talking about:

- stepping relays/switches -- used in very old mechanical
telephone switching equipment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepping_switch

- stepper motors -- used in lot of current equipment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor
--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:47:27 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Have a married-in relative, astronomer. He
is WELL versed in using FORTH to control instruments. It's maybe all
we have in common, but it's something.

One of the big wins for FORTH was Kitt Peak. A person I worked with who
had moved on to UA astronomy department tried to recruit me. They have
other sites on Graham, Bigelow, and others including Kitt. I'd spent
several winters in Why, AZ, which is west of Kitt just after you leave the
Rez but didn't want to be a year round AZ resident. Nice place to visit.
At least UA is in Tucson, which is semi-bearable.

Relay logic isn't THAT transparent. If it's really SIMPLE then yes
... but not when it get really detailed. The common 'ladder' diagrams
- I find them NOT informative,
a poor rep of what's going on IMHO.

In 1971 the 8080 and other MPUs were a dream on the drawing board.
Industrial applications were all about relay logic. Solid state slowly advanced but the first steps were shaky. An industrial forklift charging station or a motor controller starting a 50 HP induction motor tend to put some nasty spikes on the plant wiring. With 120 VAC relays nobody
noticed.

Logic is logic. If you can do ladder diagrams you can do TTL. You can also
do if
(a && b)
{
activate_solenoid();
}

It's all the same.

There is a huge body of apocalyptic literature but those scenarios are
fiction, aren't they?

Ummm ... maybe NOT so much 'fiction' anymore ...

What can we DO about that, if anything ......

This is kind of an 'existential' issue now.

Not to get into the pros and cons but covid proved how easy it is to
generate a huge cluster fuck.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 11:40:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:

the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled
nylon TyWraps. Fortunately the girls, excuse me,
female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.

I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them
faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.

I was a hair late for lacing. The last large control panels I designed
used what we called Wiremold although I don't think that is the correct
term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKbCL0Gy2Y

He finally opens the door at around 1:50 and it looks like home. With the wiremold you could add or replace wires as need without messing about with
a harness.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 18:42:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 05/08/2026 15:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream
machinery to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of
obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Steppers all over the place. Default thing to drive car instruments
these days. And 3D printers. And laser printers.

If you want to be pedantic 'stepping switches'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepping_switch

They were commonly referred to as 'steppers' in the day.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/167685007179? mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050&amdata=enc%3AAQALAAAAoGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xBy8wdJkViToPsAuY8UpY1csRzq63MYYGwDlvB%2FUtJ8TJVNwahnLQEyTJwNNIEKPOxAxSe08vBiReyRV5eF191eIB0JZ1ToPlD32vM%2FvmPZ9%2BwVvQE%2BJA7Mvf6QBj6zyllxR%2BIu%2BzcZNbhGDC2gxdAVTFa5O%2BR9%2B2V9u60C60wl0qiP7qbVaMto3QmxJsW%2Br%2BA%3D

https://tinyurl.com/dzcjhpew

This is a later model with the black plastic nibs that snapped into place
on the cam. The earlier ones required breaking segments off the cam. One
of the screens shows the large lead weight. The solenoid lifted it up and released it. Rotating the drum took more than a gentle suggestion.

As you might imagine it was a bit slow. We began a line of down acting hydraulic presses that opened a pilot operated check valve that allowed
the ram to free fall rather than being pumped down. There was a limit
switch that would advance the stepping switch, closing the check valve,
and start the final closing under pressure. A client used very light
hydraulic fluid and during the preliminary on-site testing the stepper
barely quivered as the ram passed the momentary limit switch. Crash! I
had to add a relay to latch in the signal. For the next design I got rid
of the legacy hardware entirely.

I learned something else of value. We bought the bare press frame from
Daniels of Stroud.

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/research/daniels/

Shortly before it was to be shipped the UK had one of their little dock strikes. A 100 ton press refers to the clamping force and doesn't weigh
100 tons but shipping the thing air freight was a bit pricey. It would
hardly fit into your carry on luggage.

Depending on international trade has its drawbacks.





--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 5 Aug 2026 20:19:24 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

Sounds like the apparent disagreement might be a matter of which kind of "stepper" each party is talking about:

- stepping relays/switches -- used in very old mechanical
telephone switching equipment

A picture is worth 1000 words so I clarified. The 'steppers' I had in mind didn't have much in common with the telco equipment. Among other things
they rotated 360 degrees.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/5/26 10:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery
to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Nothing wrong with steppers ...

Even a lot of current tech - in the end
it's running steppers. It's how mechanical
stuff gets DONE in a quasi-quantifiable
fashion.

Or do you think DC/PWM gets it done ?
Done that - NOT especially precise.

At some point, 'software' has to translate
into 'real world'. Best Dreams don't work
valves and machines at the water plant.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/5/26 13:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 05/08/2026 15:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

-a-a-a Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds >>> -a-a-a more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery >>> -a-a-a to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of
obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Steppers all over the place. Default thing to drive car instruments
these days. And 3D printers. And laser printers.

And BIG stuff too !

Nothing obsolete about steppers.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 21:19, Robert Riches wrote:

On 2026-08-05, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 05/08/2026 15:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds >>>> more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery >>>> to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of
obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

Steppers all over the place. Default thing to drive car instruments
these days. And 3D printers. And laser printers.

Sounds like the apparent disagreement might be a matter of which
kind of "stepper" each party is talking about:

- stepping relays/switches -- used in very old mechanical
telephone switching equipment

Oh Strowgers...et all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepping_switch

- stepper motors -- used in lot of current equipment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper_motor

Sorry, I hadn't heard the stuff described as just 'steppers' before,
Stepping witches, Strowgers, Uniselectors etc etc.
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

- Leo Tolstoy


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 21:39, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 11:40:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:

the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled
nylon TyWraps. Fortunately the girls, excuse me,
female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.

I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them
faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.

I was a hair late for lacing. The last large control panels I designed
used what we called Wiremold although I don't think that is the correct
term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKbCL0Gy2Y

He finally opens the door at around 1:50 and it looks like home. With the wiremold you could add or replace wires as need without messing about with
a harness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_lacing

That is what we did. Often with solid core wires bent round nails driven
into wood to identify branch points.

Solid core was best for fixed installations where the wires were
soldered as they didn't have stress concentrations at the soldered joint

Then the loom was held down with cable ties - not zip ties - loops of
plastic with holes at the end for a screw

Surprisingly cheap compared to today's prices for looms. Minimum wage or
piece work by home workers in the consumer industry...serried ranks of
nimble fingered Asian ladies on the shop floor for Mil Spec

(Flexible) PCBs today are cheaper. I remember trying to get everything
to mount off PCBs by the late 1970s...
--
rCLIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.rCY

Thomas Sowell

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 23:36, rbowman wrote:

I learned something else of value. We bought the bare press frame from Daniels of Stroud.

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/research/daniels/

Shortly before it was to be shipped the UK had one of their little dock strikes. A 100 ton press refers to the clamping force and doesn't weigh
100 tons but shipping the thing air freight was a bit pricey. It would
hardly fit into your carry on luggage.

Depending on international trade has its drawbacks.

As does unionised dock labour.

There are no dockers any more. Just one man in a crane and containers everywhere
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 23:38, rbowman wrote:

On 5 Aug 2026 20:19:24 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

Sounds like the apparent disagreement might be a matter of which kind of
"stepper" each party is talking about:

- stepping relays/switches -- used in very old mechanical
telephone switching equipment

A picture is worth 1000 words so I clarified. The 'steppers' I had in mind didn't have much in common with the telco equipment. Among other things
they rotated 360 degrees.

Yeah. Uniselectors I think we called them...360 degrees was rare though... essentially multiway relays.

Big, expensive - especially to replace if one contact was dodgy.

Became easier to use a bit of electronics to drive a bank of single way
relays instead.

That whole area of control logic was one of the first areas to get
'digitised' IIRC. It wasn't my field though.
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-05 16:09, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery
to run wild until it broke.

Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

If I understand correctly what steppers are, washing machines here have
been using them till recently. My previous one had that.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 02:18:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Nothing wrong with steppers ...

Even a lot of current tech - in the end it's running steppers. It's
how mechanical stuff gets DONE in a quasi-quantifiable fashion.

See other posts about my use of 'steppers'. I should know by now to be
more precise.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 12:35:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That is what we did. Often with solid core wires bent round nails driven
into wood to identify branch points.

The first company I worked for had the contract to make the harnesses for
the company I eventually went to. The harness board consisted to two 4x8' plywood panels with a lot of finishing nails.

The final connections would be made in the field, so a bundle of
unconnected wires were left. Nobody wanted to come up short so I think everyone in the process added a 'little bit'. I went to the site with the
VP of the company to do the pilot setup. There was about 5 feet of 'little bits' I cut off. The VP gathered up all the wasted wire to take home and
ram up somebody's butt.

When I went with the other company I designed in Amphenol connectors.

https://amphenol-aerospace.com/products/mil-spec-type-circulars

No tedious and error prone hookups on site.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 12:19:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Oh Strowgers...et all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch

Interesting. Strowger was a pissed off US undertaker but I'd never heard
the term before. My exposure to telco gear was very tangential. We built a molding system for the Western Electric Omaha plant. At the time ATT was
still a monopoly and WE was the manufacturing arm.

'Was' describes almost every company I've ever had anything to do with.
It's rather depressing.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 12:45:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yeah. Uniselectors I think we called them...360 degrees was rare
though...
essentially multiway relays.

Big, expensive - especially to replace if one contact was dodgy.

Also noisy and slow. The advantage was the plant electricians of the day
could deal with physical apparatus. With the Eagle Signal design it was obvious what was going on. When the drum was at position X a glance at
the cam showed which outputs should be active. Relays were still physical
but you had to be able to interpret the schematic rather than looking to
see which solenoid #15 connected to. TTL logic? Even worse.

Became easier to use a bit of electronics to drive a bank of single way relays instead.

That whole area of control logic was one of the first areas to get 'digitised' IIRC. It wasn't my field though.

Yes. The larger picture is much of the US physical plant had been renewed during WWII. By the late '60s it was tired and new technologies were ready
for new machine tool designs. Then came the oil embargo. The resultant financial turmoil discouraged capital spending. By the time the dust
settled manufacturing had been moved off shore and the machine tool
industry had went virtually extinct.

I'm fast on my feet and could adapt. Many couldn't, including entire
cities that had been built around the manufacturing plants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w038TQyWRN8

Springsteen has turned into a bit of an asshole but he did write some fine songs.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 12:37:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 05/08/2026 23:36, rbowman wrote:

I learned something else of value. We bought the bare press frame from
Daniels of Stroud.

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/research/daniels/

Shortly before it was to be shipped the UK had one of their little dock
strikes. A 100 ton press refers to the clamping force and doesn't weigh
100 tons but shipping the thing air freight was a bit pricey. It would
hardly fit into your carry on luggage.

Depending on international trade has its drawbacks.

As does unionised dock labour.

There are no dockers any more. Just one man in a crane and containers everywhere

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine as a deck officer. The switch
to containers came early in his career. No more exploring foreign ports.
Dock at 2AM, be off again by 6AM. While he had a master's rating he never sailed higher than 2nd mate, and then only for 6 months out of the year.
The Masters, Mates & Pilots union was parceling out work in a dying
industry. Dying for US flagged vessels, that is. I'd considered that
career in high school as an engineering officer rather than a deck
officer. Thankfully I went in another direction.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 14:22:32 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If I understand correctly what steppers are, washing machines here have
been using them till recently. My previous one had that.

https://www.electronicsforu.com/electronics-projects/hardware-diy/washing- machine-motor-controller

It would make sense. A stepping relay with timer inputs could get the job done. My relationship with washing machines consists in dropping quarters
down the slot. The really is one laundromat in town that is coin operated rather than a card swipe. It's something to do with 5 pounds of quarters.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 06/08/2026 22:03, rbowman wrote:

Springsteen has turned into a bit of an asshole but he did write some fine songs.

Yes.
--
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's" Joew Walsh

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 06/08/2026 22:12, rbowman wrote:

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine as a deck officer. The switch
to containers came early in his career. No more exploring foreign ports.
Dock at 2AM, be off again by 6AM. While he had a master's rating he never sailed higher than 2nd mate, and then only for 6 months out of the year.
The Masters, Mates & Pilots union was parceling out work in a dying
industry. Dying for US flagged vessels, that is. I'd considered that
career in high school as an engineering officer rather than a deck
officer. Thankfully I went in another direction.

Yes. register your ship in Liberia and pick whatever crew you could get
at below minimum wage.

Out of interest I looked it up. Crew on a large container ship can be as
few as 10 and as many as 30, but no more than that.

Nice cheap way to push goods round the world

They will be nuclear in ten years, most likely
--
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's" Joew Walsh

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/6/26 07:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 05/08/2026 23:36, rbowman wrote:

I learned something else of value. We bought the bare press frame from
Daniels of Stroud.

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/research/daniels/

Shortly before it was to be shipped the UK had one of their little dock
strikes. A 100 ton press refers to the clamping force and doesn't weigh
100 tons but shipping the thing air freight was a bit pricey. It would
hardly fit into your carry on luggage.

Depending on international trade has its drawbacks.

As does unionised dock labour.

There are no dockers any more. Just one man in a crane and containers everywhere

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized
that all those huge cranes had Chinese cameras in
them - which phoned home. Ergo the CCP could track
ALL containers across the entire world :-)

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:33:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/08/2026 22:12, rbowman wrote:

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine as a deck officer. The
switch to containers came early in his career. No more exploring
foreign ports.
Dock at 2AM, be off again by 6AM. While he had a master's rating he
never sailed higher than 2nd mate, and then only for 6 months out of
the year.
The Masters, Mates & Pilots union was parceling out work in a dying
industry. Dying for US flagged vessels, that is. I'd considered that
career in high school as an engineering officer rather than a deck
officer. Thankfully I went in another direction.

Yes. register your ship in Liberia and pick whatever crew you could get
at below minimum wage.

Jack London's 'The Mutiny of the Elsinore' isn't one of his works on
reading lists like 'Call of the Wild'.

https://obdg.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-mutiny-of-elsinore-by-jack-
london.html

He might be describing the crew of a Liberian vessel. The socialists would like to include London in their fold but they have to tread very lightly.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/7/26 00:45, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:33:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/08/2026 22:12, rbowman wrote:

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine as a deck officer. The
switch to containers came early in his career. No more exploring
foreign ports.
Dock at 2AM, be off again by 6AM. While he had a master's rating he
never sailed higher than 2nd mate, and then only for 6 months out of
the year.
The Masters, Mates & Pilots union was parceling out work in a dying
industry. Dying for US flagged vessels, that is. I'd considered that
career in high school as an engineering officer rather than a deck
officer. Thankfully I went in another direction.

Yes. register your ship in Liberia and pick whatever crew you could get
at below minimum wage.

Jack London's 'The Mutiny of the Elsinore' isn't one of his works on
reading lists like 'Call of the Wild'.

https://obdg.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-mutiny-of-elsinore-by-jack-
london.html

He might be describing the crew of a Liberian vessel. The socialists would like to include London in their fold but they have to tread very lightly.

Well, sometimes London sounded like a 'socialist'
but really he wasn't. They can try to STEAL and
BIAS his stuff but they won't be entirely successful.

Alas the modern gens won't REALIZE the distortions ...
in USA "history" is kind of forbidden now, you can
ONLY teach the ultra-left 'truths' to the kiddies
Or ELSE.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/08/2026 05:45, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:33:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/08/2026 22:12, rbowman wrote:

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine as a deck officer. The
switch to containers came early in his career. No more exploring
foreign ports.
Dock at 2AM, be off again by 6AM. While he had a master's rating he
never sailed higher than 2nd mate, and then only for 6 months out of
the year.
The Masters, Mates & Pilots union was parceling out work in a dying
industry. Dying for US flagged vessels, that is. I'd considered that
career in high school as an engineering officer rather than a deck
officer. Thankfully I went in another direction.

Yes. register your ship in Liberia and pick whatever crew you could get
at below minimum wage.

Jack London's 'The Mutiny of the Elsinore' isn't one of his works on
reading lists like 'Call of the Wild'.

https://obdg.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-mutiny-of-elsinore-by-jack-
london.html

He might be describing the crew of a Liberian vessel. The socialists would like to include London in their fold but they have to tread very lightly.

The socialists want to appropriate everything popular. I wonder how they
would get on with 'sometimes a great notion' [book]
--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/08/2026 06:57, c186282 wrote:

Alas the modern gens won't REALIZE the distortions ...
-a in USA "history" is kind of forbidden now, you can
-a ONLY teach the ultra-left 'truths' to the kiddies
-a Or ELSE.

Instead of creationism...
TBH I see the USA more than any other country as bing torn apart by two different lies, while the truth dares not show its face...
--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized
that all those huge cranes had Chinese cameras in
them - which phoned home. Ergo the CCP could track
ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this
but think that Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people:
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 11:44:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/08/2026 06:57, c186282 wrote:

Alas the modern gens won't REALIZE the distortions ...
-a in USA "history" is kind of forbidden now, you can ONLY teach the
-a ultra-left 'truths' to the kiddies Or ELSE.

Instead of creationism...
TBH I see the USA more than any other country as bing torn apart by two different lies, while the truth dares not show its face...

What is truth? The US was founded on Enlightenment principles that were
either lies or wishful thinking depending on your personal preferences.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 01:57:20 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Well, sometimes London sounded like a 'socialist'
but really he wasn't. They can try to STEAL and BIAS his stuff but
they won't be entirely successful.

https://www.online-literature.com/london/3875/

https://cosmonautmag.com/2025/08/the-idiosyncratic-socialism-of-jack-
london/

Had he lived London might have been comfortable with Otto Strasser's Black Front or Durgin's National Bolshevism or other third way movements. The
DSA would make him vomit.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/08/2026 21:08, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 11:44:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/08/2026 06:57, c186282 wrote:

Alas the modern gens won't REALIZE the distortions ...
-a in USA "history" is kind of forbidden now, you can ONLY teach the
-a ultra-left 'truths' to the kiddies Or ELSE.

Instead of creationism...
TBH I see the USA more than any other country as bing torn apart by two
different lies, while the truth dares not show its face...

What is truth? The US was founded on Enlightenment principles that were either lies or wishful thinking depending on your personal preferences.

Well it is of course3 'whatever is the case'

That is, it is the basic reality that we can all agree on without arguing.

Politics is mostly weaponised bullshit.
--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/7/26 15:16, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized
that all those huge cranes had Chinese cameras in
them - which phoned home. Ergo the CCP could track
ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this
but think that Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.

I don't think GA is especially good either.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/7/26 16:06, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 01:57:20 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Well, sometimes London sounded like a 'socialist'
but really he wasn't. They can try to STEAL and BIAS his stuff but
they won't be entirely successful.

https://www.online-literature.com/london/3875/

https://cosmonautmag.com/2025/08/the-idiosyncratic-socialism-of-jack-
london/

Had he lived London might have been comfortable with Otto Strasser's Black Front or Durgin's National Bolshevism or other third way movements. The
DSA would make him vomit.

Today's news, Fox I think, some DSA high-up
demanding "Marxist-Leninist PUNISHMENT" for
other Dems who won't suck up.

"Marxist-Leninist punishment" means *EXECUTION*.

Time to CRUSH these dangerous assholes.

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On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 23:06:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Today's news, Fox I think, some DSA high-up demanding
"Marxist-Leninist PUNISHMENT" for other Dems who won't suck up.

Hasan Piker. The DSA is having a moment.

https://inthesetimes.com/article/dsa-socialist-alternative-entryism- socialism-marxism

Piker is reverting to the old CPUSA days. Moscow would announce the party
line of the day and everyone would fall in. That led to some interesting
cases of whiplash. The Almanac Singers, which morphed into the Weavers,
were all for peace and isolationism and worked with the American Peace Mobilization, a Communist front.

Then in June 1941 it became American Peoples Mobilization and joined the
war effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUzu7KCMVcU

'The Sinking Of The Reuben James' Woody Guthrie

Guthrie also added the 'This Machine Kills Fascists' artwork to his
guitar.

Michael Harrington, one of the DSA founders, tried to keep the communists
out. I don't know if he would recognize what it's become. Despite a good Catholic upbringing he was a Zionist.



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On Fri, 07 Aug 2026 19:16:25 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized that all those
huge cranes had Chinese cameras in them - which phoned home. Ergo
the CCP could track ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this but think that Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.

There seems to be a growing grassroots feeling that the best answer to a
Flock camera is a 12 gauge.
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On 8/8/26 01:18, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 23:06:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Today's news, Fox I think, some DSA high-up demanding
"Marxist-Leninist PUNISHMENT" for other Dems who won't suck up.

Hasan Piker. The DSA is having a moment.

https://inthesetimes.com/article/dsa-socialist-alternative-entryism- socialism-marxism

Piker is reverting to the old CPUSA days. Moscow would announce the party line of the day and everyone would fall in. That led to some interesting cases of whiplash. The Almanac Singers, which morphed into the Weavers,
were all for peace and isolationism and worked with the American Peace Mobilization, a Communist front.

Then in June 1941 it became American Peoples Mobilization and joined the
war effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUzu7KCMVcU

'The Sinking Of The Reuben James' Woody Guthrie

Guthrie also added the 'This Machine Kills Fascists' artwork to his
guitar.

Michael Harrington, one of the DSA founders, tried to keep the communists out. I don't know if he would recognize what it's become. Despite a good Catholic upbringing he was a Zionist.

This is more than "a moment" - it's an outright
call for *assassinations* and *executions*.

If you're read ANYTHING about "Marxist-Leninist"
you'll know it involved HUGE deadly purges. You
are either 101% with their revolutionary vision
or ELSE.

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

And should be handled as such.

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On 8/8/26 01:22, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 07 Aug 2026 19:16:25 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized that all those
huge cranes had Chinese cameras in them - which phoned home. Ergo
the CCP could track ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this but think that
Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.

There seems to be a growing grassroots feeling that the best answer to a Flock camera is a 12 gauge.

Ummm ... they MAY be right.

Those cams are EXPENSIVE ... major loss by
whatever means cannot be sustained.

Also seems The Public has kinda turned
against them - don't BUY the 'crime'
angle anymore.

This is not just USA, but UK and beyond.

Orwell has become just TOO obvious.

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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 01:39:54 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Also seems The Public has kinda turned against them - don't BUY the
'crime' angle anymore.

Law enforcement here does use them. Some cities have canceled their
contracts because of the bad press but this one never had one. Even red
light cameras were outlawed statewide in 2009. Some Karens would like to
allow them but they haven't gotten traction


Scheel's and Lowe's have put them up the parking lots.

https://deflock.org/

Handy little map with the coordinates and orientation of the camera if
someone wants to go skeet shooting. I've also seen suggestions to homeless individuals that there are worthwhile quantities of various metals that
could be salvaged.
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 01:37:13 -0400, c186282 wrote:

This is more than "a moment" - it's an outright call for
*assassinations* and *executions*.

If you're read ANYTHING about "Marxist-Leninist" you'll know it
involved HUGE deadly purges. You are either 101% with their
revolutionary vision or ELSE.

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

And should be handled as such.

If the DSA wants to set up a circular firing squad more power to them.
They can have The Night of the Short Rubber Knives or something.

I sort of wonder about Bernie. He identifies as a democratic socialist but he's really a social democrat. Big difference. Adulation by the kiddies
might feel good but I'm not sure he's quite ready for the new breed. AOC
is sort of harmless. El Manadan or whoever isn't.

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c186282 wrote:

-a Those cams are EXPENSIVE ... major loss by
-a whatever means cannot be sustained.

-a Also seems The Public has kinda turned
-a against them - don't BUY the 'crime'
-a angle anymore.

-a This is not just USA, but UK and beyond.

-a Orwell has become just TOO obvious.

Certainly there are people willing to destroy the ULEZ cameras in London
and post videos of their work on youtube, but I rarely see any destroyed speed-cameras outside of London, used to be common to see them having
been "necklaced".

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing>
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On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

rCo Confucius

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On 08/08/2026 06:22, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 07 Aug 2026 19:16:25 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized that all those
huge cranes had Chinese cameras in them - which phoned home. Ergo
the CCP could track ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this but think that
Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.

There seems to be a growing grassroots feeling that the best answer to a Flock camera is a 12 gauge.

Indeed.

I saw a nice video online: Two pensioners holding up cardboard sheets in
front of a camera. No damage to property or trespass was involved...]
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

rCo Confucius

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On 2026-08-08, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

Extremists scare me whichever side they're on.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people:
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 12:38:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I saw a nice video online: Two pensioners holding up cardboard sheets in front of a camera. No damage to property or trespass was involved...]

That works. Adapters designed to allow using a can of wasp spray on a telescoping pole are readily available. TV shows where the bad guys take
out surveillance cameras are common. I'm sure someone can sum 2 + 2.
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 12:36:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

The right tends not to kill people not subscribing to the party line
although they certainly have their purges; q.v. Carlson, Greene, Massie,
etc. Then there is the conspiracy theory that Charlie Kirk was getting
ready to deviate.

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On 08/08/2026 20:01, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 12:36:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

The right tends not to kill people not subscribing to the party line
although they certainly have their purges; q.v. Carlson, Greene, Massie,
etc. Then there is the conspiracy theory that Charlie Kirk was getting
ready to deviate.

The only real far right murderer I can recall is Brevik

Not sure about in the USA.

There a gun spree can just be a matter of it being a pre menstrual Monday...
--
rCLThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnrCOt true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.rCY

rCoSoren Kierkegaard

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In <HJJdS.14695$X2R3.1275@fx17.iad> Charlie Gibbs:

Extremists scare me whichever side they're on.

+1

E.g. blind-eye bipartisan US support for "Holy Land" genocide.
--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at att, dotted with net. * DO NOT SPAM IT. *
I toss (404) GoogleGroup (404 http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/).
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

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On 08/08/2026 20:33, Harold Stevens wrote:

In <HJJdS.14695$X2R3.1275@fx17.iad> Charlie Gibbs:

Extremists scare me whichever side they're on.

+1

E.g. blind-eye bipartisan US support for "Holy Land" genocide.

I thought the US was on Israel's side. ostensibly...

'From the beach up to the Plaza, kick these fuckers back to Gaza'
--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman



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On 2026-08-08, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:22, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 07 Aug 2026 19:16:25 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Loved the story a few years ago when they realized that all those
huge cranes had Chinese cameras in them - which phoned home. Ergo
the CCP could track ALL containers across the entire world :-)

I love the way people get so upset about things like this but think that >>> Google Analytics is OK.

Sometimes the most effective spying is very subtle.

Yup.

There seems to be a growing grassroots feeling that the best answer to a
Flock camera is a 12 gauge.

Indeed.

I saw a nice video online: Two pensioners holding up cardboard sheets in front of a camera. No damage to property or trespass was involved...]

Or a pool skimmer:

https://notthebee.com/article/florida-man-exercises-constitutional-rights-by-holding-pool-skimmer-over-flock-camera
--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
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On 2026-08-08 21:01, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 12:36:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

The right tends not to kill people not subscribing to the party line
although they certainly have their purges; q.v. Carlson, Greene, Massie,
etc. Then there is the conspiracy theory that Charlie Kirk was getting
ready to deviate.

Depends where. In my country, the right has killed 50000 in repression
after the war.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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On 8/8/26 07:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a-a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

And should.


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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 20:41:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 20:33, Harold Stevens wrote:

In <HJJdS.14695$X2R3.1275@fx17.iad> Charlie Gibbs:

Extremists scare me whichever side they're on.

+1

E.g. blind-eye bipartisan US support for "Holy Land" genocide.

I thought the US was on Israel's side. ostensibly...

'From the beach up to the Plaza, kick these fuckers back to Gaza'

Yes the 2% tail wags the dog very nicely.
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 20:21:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The only real far right murderer I can recall is Brevik

Not sure about in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg

Berg is the only one I can think of offhand. McVeigh was anti government
and incensed by Reno's heavy handed actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge but I wouldn't call him far right.
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 22:27:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Depends where. In my country, the right has killed 50000 in repression
after the war.

Paybacks are a bitch. The smarter Republicans decided on a French vacation although France didn't exactly roll out the red carpet.

It's been a while since I read it but iirc in 'Homage to Catalonia' Orwell described the left eating its own.
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On 08/08/2026 21:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2026-08-08 21:01, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 12:36:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/08/2026 06:37, c186282 wrote:

In context, this utterance was a huge DEATH THREAT.

-a -a And should be handled as such.

The Left scares me a lot more than the Right.

The right tends not to kill people not subscribing to the party line
although they certainly have their purges; q.v. Carlson, Greene, Massie,
etc.-a Then there is the conspiracy theory that Charlie Kirk was getting
ready to deviate.

Depends where. In my country, the right has killed 50000 in repression
after the war.

That wasn't the 'right': That was the result of years of Empire and Catholicism and Communism .

It's all in the Spanish character and culture. Same thing happens all
across Latin America.

It's all full of Glorious Leaders and repressed little folk.

It's very romantic. But if you want a society where stuff works , the
trains run on time and life is spent doing nothing very exciting you
need the Germanic cultures of North West Europe.
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14


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On 09/08/2026 05:45, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 22:27:31 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Depends where. In my country, the right has killed 50000 in repression
after the war.

Paybacks are a bitch. The smarter Republicans decided on a French vacation although France didn't exactly roll out the red carpet.

It's been a while since I read it but iirc in 'Homage to Catalonia' Orwell described the left eating its own.

Yes. the idealism of the Spanish Left was romantic, but ultimately
unable to sustain itself
against the brutal pragmatism of the fascists. I hesitate to call them
right wing.

Its the same every time Left wing Idealism is forced to confront reality.
--
rCLThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnrCOt true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.rCY

rCoSoren Kierkegaard

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On 09/08/2026 05:29, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 20:21:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The only real far right murderer I can recall is Brevik

Not sure about in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg

Berg is the only one I can think of offhand. McVeigh was anti government
and incensed by Reno's heavy handed actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge but I wouldn't call him far right.

There is no great international organisation of the far right. Not like
there is with communism and its brethren...

So its protagonists tend to be loner nutcases or tiny sects
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".


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On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:50:12 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no great international organisation of the far right. Not like
there is with communism and its brethren...

So its protagonists tend to be loner nutcases or tiny sects

There is a thread leading to de Benoist's Nouvelle Droit and beck before
that to the German Conservative Revolution in the '30s but it is a far
stretch to call it and organization.

The various Identarian groups are sort of under the umbrella. The US alt- right pretty much fell apart.

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On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:47:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes. the idealism of the Spanish Left was romantic, but ultimately
unable to sustain itself against the brutal pragmatism of the fascists.
I hesitate to call them right wing.

iirc, part of the Republican romance was killing priests, nuns, landlords,
and others that didn't fit into their idealism. I forget all the acronyms
but the Republicans also eliminated some of the POUM leaders who failed
the Stalinist purity test.

It certainly left a bad taste in Orwell's mouth.
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On 2026-08-09 20:54, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:47:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes. the idealism of the Spanish Left was romantic, but ultimately
unable to sustain itself against the brutal pragmatism of the fascists.
I hesitate to call them right wing.

iirc, part of the Republican romance was killing priests, nuns, landlords, and others that didn't fit into their idealism. I forget all the acronyms
but the Republicans also eliminated some of the POUM leaders who failed
the Stalinist purity test.

A lot of that was propaganda, or happened after the war started and the government lost the actual control.

It certainly left a bad taste in Orwell's mouth.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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On 8/9/26 14:44, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:50:12 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

There is no great international organisation of the far right. Not like
there is with communism and its brethren...

So its protagonists tend to be loner nutcases or tiny sects

There is a thread leading to de Benoist's Nouvelle Droit and beck before
that to the German Conservative Revolution in the '30s but it is a far stretch to call it and organization.

The various Identarian groups are sort of under the umbrella. The US alt- right pretty much fell apart.

USA, apparently parts of EU also, the "right"
(and note USA and EU defs kinda vary) can be
loud, but it's not very organized. The further
"left" tends to be much more organized, for
a common cause/theme/approach.

"... just waiting for the communist call"

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On 8/9/26 14:54, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:47:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Yes. the idealism of the Spanish Left was romantic, but ultimately
unable to sustain itself against the brutal pragmatism of the fascists.
I hesitate to call them right wing.

iirc, part of the Republican romance was killing priests, nuns, landlords, and others that didn't fit into their idealism. I forget all the acronyms
but the Republicans also eliminated some of the POUM leaders who failed
the Stalinist purity test.

It certainly left a bad taste in Orwell's mouth.

And for VERY good reason !

But today's kiddies don't learn "history" - only
a re-fabricated, shallow, mix of old shit heavily
tilted towards a leftist purpose.

So, they don't KNOW - and frankly don't want to
THINK about it lest their dreams of vast "free
money" implode.

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On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 00:04:02 -0400, c186282 wrote:

USA, apparently parts of EU also, the "right" (and note USA and EU
defs kinda vary) can be loud, but it's not very organized. The
further "left" tends to be much more organized, for a common
cause/theme/approach.

The right bitches about 'Rules for Radicals' but can't be bothered to read
it. The Nouvelle Droit had no problem studying Gramsci.
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On 8/10/26 01:49, rbowman wrote:

On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 00:04:02 -0400, c186282 wrote:

USA, apparently parts of EU also, the "right" (and note USA and EU
defs kinda vary) can be loud, but it's not very organized. The
further "left" tends to be much more organized, for a common
cause/theme/approach.

The right bitches about 'Rules for Radicals' but can't be bothered to read it. The Nouvelle Droit had no problem studying Gramsci.

I actually have a copy of R4R :-)

The techniques described are not really limited
to use by 'left' or 'right' or anyone else. A lot
of it is just generic info about what makes humans
react, what humans are 'eager to believe'.

One 'rule' stands out - never get SPECIFIC about
what you plan to do. If you do that you'll lose
most of yer would-be useful idiots. Always talk
about the 'grand vision' instead.

"Free stuff for EVERYONE" ??? How ? Where does
it come from ? Always leave that ultra-vague
and the audience will fill in the gaps from
its own minds, biases, hatreds.

We see this 'rule' applied all the damned time.

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