From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 1 Aug 2026 21:30:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Do you really NEED super-accurate humidity readings ?
For like a big commercial greenhouse, YES. For yer back-yard,
close-enough may be close-enough.

Idle curiosity. The 45% surprised me. right now it's reporting "temperature_F":81.5,"humidity":21

which is more in line with the NOAA figure. A front is moving in. No rain
but it's supposed to be high 70s Sunday and Monday. That will feel like
winter after the high 90s.
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/2/26 00:13, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 1 Aug 2026 21:30:22 -0400, c186282 wrote:

Do you really NEED super-accurate humidity readings ?
For like a big commercial greenhouse, YES. For yer back-yard,
close-enough may be close-enough.

Idle curiosity. The 45% surprised me. right now it's reporting "temperature_F":81.5,"humidity":21

which is more in line with the NOAA figure. A front is moving in. No rain
but it's supposed to be high 70s Sunday and Monday. That will feel like winter after the high 90s.

For cheap you can buy a wet/dry bulb unit with
a nice little chart on it. My granny had one
on her porch. That was 1960s.

It might be interesting/informative to compare
yer device readings with the Gold Standard.

But, as said, for "home" stuff, close enough
might be close enough.

Ah, my Momma had two funky things. One was
"horse-hair" actuated - little figures would
come out depending on high/low humidity. The
other was a kind of "stick", made of wood
that's sensitive to humidity. If it curled
down it meant low, if straight out it meant
high.

Variances in how various frequencies of light
are absorbed according to water-vapor percentage
make "match-box" folded-path metrology possible.
Ya have two laser diodes - one on a high-absorbsion
frequency, the other for low. Mirror strips inside,
turns the 'matchbox' into like a meter-long path.
Comparing freq 'A' to 'B' can give you a fair reading.

I think most modern mini-devices just have a sort
of semi-hydroscopic layer - you measure the resistance
across the layer. Alas there are a number of ways that
can become rather imprecise.

Now, as also said, for like a big commercial greenhouse,
more exact humidity readings may be rather critical so
'scientific management' is possible.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-02 03:30, c186282 wrote:

-a Now the wet bulb, how the hell do you KEEP it wet ?

And fungi free?

-a This can be a PROBLEM depending on environment. Where
-a I was, there was surely a little rain every 7-10 days.
-a A cheepo reservoir was easy to rig. It's also possible
-a to lace the wet cloth with a chemical, ammonium nitrate
-a for example, which is extremely hydroscopic - but the
-a chosen salt WILL affect the reading and compensation
-a will be needed.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 02/08/2026 13:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2026-08-02 03:30, c186282 wrote:

Now the wet bulb, how the hell do you KEEP it wet ?

And fungi free?

This can be a PROBLEM depending on environment. Where I was, there
was surely a little rain every 7-10 days. A cheepo reservoir was
easy to rig. It's also possible to lace the wet cloth with a
chemical, ammonium nitrate for example, which is extremely
hydroscopic - but the chosen salt WILL affect the reading and
compensation will be needed.

AI Overview:

Humidity sensors measure water vapour in the air using capacitive,
resistive, or thermal conductivity methods. They track changes in
electrical properties or heat patterns when moisture is absorbed.

Capacitive Sensors
============
Structure: A moisture-absorbing (hygroscopic) material sits between two
metal plates (electrodes).

Action: The material absorbs water from the air, which changes its
ability to store an electrical charge.

Output: The sensor measures this change in capacitance and turns it into
a relative humidity percentage.

Resistive Sensors
===========

Structure: A pair of electrodes is coated with a material like a
conductive polymer or salt.

Action: Absorbed moisture breaks down into ions, which changes the
electrical resistance across the coating.

Output: Lower resistance means higher humidity, which the device
calculates into a reading.

Thermal Conductivity Sensors
===================

Structure: Two small heat-producing parts (thermistors) are used.

Action: One part is sealed in dry gas while the other is exposed to the air.

Output: Moisture in the air cools the exposed part differently than the
dry one, and the difference in resistance measures absolute humidity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Presumably any hygroscopic elements are soaked in fungicide at manufacture
--
The difference bweteen a psychopath and a saint is that the psychpoath
takes what he can and gives only what he must, but the saint gives
everything he can and takes only what he needs.



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c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Now you CAN make a wet/dry-bulb unit using two DS
18b20 temperature sensors - one kinda wrapped in a
light wet cloth. Suggest dipping both sensors in epoxy
to enhance water resistance. DO adjust the reported
temperatures, dry, to be the same. The Dallas 1-wire
devices are GOOD, but no two of them will read
EXACTLY the same. Calibrate at the bench, using a
scientific conventional thermometer as reference.

Now the wet bulb, how the hell do you KEEP it wet ?
This can be a PROBLEM depending on environment. Where
I was, there was surely a little rain every 7-10 days.
A cheepo reservoir was easy to rig. It's also possible
to lace the wet cloth with a chemical, ammonium nitrate
for example, which is extremely hydroscopic - but the
chosen salt WILL affect the reading and compensation
will be needed.

Anyway, wet+dry will give you a very real figure, but
at added complexity.

Do you really NEED super-accurate humidity readings ?
For like a big commercial greenhouse, YES. For yer
back-yard, close-enough may be close-enough.

Back when I was an student in the 80's, one mechanical engineering
professor described doing wet/dry bulb measurements. The thermometers
were tied to lanyards, and you would whirl them around in the air at
a certain rate to get more air flow over the bulbs during the
measurement. It increased the difference between the wet and dry
readings for better accuracy, and the tables were adjusted for that
affect. My old thermodynamics textbook has a Psychrometric Chart in
the back that you could use for calculating the absolute humidity from
the temperatures. It doesn't say whether the bulbs should be whirled
around or not, maybe that was common knowledge back then.

Cheers,
Rob Komar

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sun, 2 Aug 2026 11:59:29 -0400, Robert Komar wrote:

Back when I was an student in the 80's, one mechanical engineering
professor described doing wet/dry bulb measurements. The thermometers
were tied to lanyards, and you would whirl them around in the air at a certain rate to get more air flow over the bulbs during the measurement.
It increased the difference between the wet and dry readings for better accuracy, and the tables were adjusted for that affect. My old thermodynamics textbook has a Psychrometric Chart in the back that you
could use for calculating the absolute humidity from the temperatures.
It doesn't say whether the bulbs should be whirled around or not, maybe
that was common knowledge back then.

https://ktagage.com/product/sling-psychrometer/

The video shows the use of the charts. Barometric pressure comes into play too. I assume that takes into account elevation. The side by side types probably are good enough although with no motion the air around the wet
bulb will be affected by the evaporation.

Digital hygrometers measure the capacitance or resistance of a moisture sensitive material. The common DHT11 uses resistance which isn't as
accurate as capacitance but what do you want for $3? One of the Accurite
pages mentions both methods but doesn't say which is used. In both cases onboard processing handles the raw measurements of the thermistor and
humidity sensor

I suppose I could build a 70 cm Yagi and go fox hunting to find the
Accurite unit but whoever owns it probably wouldn't be happy with me
taking it apart.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/2/26 08:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2026-08-02 03:30, c186282 wrote:

-a-a Now the wet bulb, how the hell do you KEEP it wet ?

And fungi free?

Zinc chloride. A little dab 'll do ya.

DO keep it off the wires though, hence
my 'epoxy-dip' rec :-)

-a-a This can be a PROBLEM depending on environment. Where
-a-a I was, there was surely a little rain every 7-10 days.
-a-a A cheepo reservoir was easy to rig. It's also possible
-a-a to lace the wet cloth with a chemical, ammonium nitrate
-a-a for example, which is extremely hydroscopic - but the
-a-a chosen salt WILL affect the reading and compensation
-a-a will be needed.

The "KEEPING it wet" can be more of a problem.

Fine if the unit is on your back porch, but what
if it's an environmental station 90 miles back
into the hills ?

As said, there ARE some - kinda iffy - ways to
detect water vapor that can fit into a kinda
small/cheap package. It just depends on HOW
accurate you need to be. If plus/minus 15%
is functionally OK then ......

But I did do work for a commercial greenhouse
long long back ... for max yield they needed
more accurate figures.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/2/26 11:59, Robert Komar wrote:

c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

Now you CAN make a wet/dry-bulb unit using two DS
18b20 temperature sensors - one kinda wrapped in a
light wet cloth. Suggest dipping both sensors in epoxy
to enhance water resistance. DO adjust the reported
temperatures, dry, to be the same. The Dallas 1-wire
devices are GOOD, but no two of them will read
EXACTLY the same. Calibrate at the bench, using a
scientific conventional thermometer as reference.

Now the wet bulb, how the hell do you KEEP it wet ?
This can be a PROBLEM depending on environment. Where
I was, there was surely a little rain every 7-10 days.
A cheepo reservoir was easy to rig. It's also possible
to lace the wet cloth with a chemical, ammonium nitrate
for example, which is extremely hydroscopic - but the
chosen salt WILL affect the reading and compensation
will be needed.

Anyway, wet+dry will give you a very real figure, but
at added complexity.

Do you really NEED super-accurate humidity readings ?
For like a big commercial greenhouse, YES. For yer
back-yard, close-enough may be close-enough.

Back when I was an student in the 80's, one mechanical engineering
professor described doing wet/dry bulb measurements. The thermometers
were tied to lanyards, and you would whirl them around in the air at
a certain rate to get more air flow over the bulbs during the
measurement. It increased the difference between the wet and dry
readings for better accuracy, and the tables were adjusted for that
affect. My old thermodynamics textbook has a Psychrometric Chart in
the back that you could use for calculating the absolute humidity from
the temperatures. It doesn't say whether the bulbs should be whirled
around or not, maybe that was common knowledge back then.

"Whirl-around" IS best.

However, for a fixed unit these days, maybe the
best is a tiny PI fan that sucks air over the
thing. Start the fan like 60 seconds before you
make the reading. Doesn't need MUCH power.

Anyway, kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
of black art. A number of cheepo approaches, some
small and low $$$, but expect at least a 15% variance
from reality.

I did lots of environmental field units, tried a
bunch of 'solutions'. None of the 'cheap' ones were
very good - though kinda sorta "good enough". The
one diff was for a commercial greenhouse, good yield
required precise monitoring. Just for humidity I had
to use a $250 unit to get 'precise'. They DID pay,
but didn't LIKE it. Faked a wet/dry unit on some
field units I did later using dual 1-wire DS
temperature sensors. Cheaper but still Good Enough.

Greenhouse, if humidity too low, you sent pulses to
a 'mist' unit - sprayed water mist into the air.
Wait 30 minutes, test again.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort a
reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people
--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/3/26 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort a reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people

Immediate environment is indeed a complicating factor !
Similar issues with getting accurate temperatures. Sun
hits a dark or concrete patch 50 yards away at a certain
time of day and it may send a plume of hot air at yer
device.

As such, most such measurements are going to just be
"(maybe) Good Enough".

There are standards for professional instruments like
the Weather Service might install at airports and such.
A certain kind of housing, placement, height and such.
That doesn't mean the readings are 100% accurate, just
that they're done in a standard fashion that can more
or less be compared to similar installations.

I've used the olde-tyme mechanical drum recorders. It's
amazing how much "jitter" you could outright SEE on the
paper. Even opening the instrument box caused the figures
to jit up or down a little right before your eyes. Means
"accuracy" here is always a somewhat soft figure.

Did a one-off climate gadget for a pro greenhouse once.
They had data saying the crop qual would be best at a
very specific temperature and humidity. Spent something
near $400 (mid 80s dollars) on something that'd be
accurate enough to make them happy. It was a wet/dry
system (thermocouples I think but can't remember) and had
a little fan to suck air past the sensors. You had to
re-fill it with water every so many days. Used an 8051 uC
for recording AND actuating 'mist' squirters (just a
solenoid). The clients sold to the 'elite organic vegan'
crowd and could get top dollar for like mini tomatoes
and weird salad green shit I'd never eat. Pretty simple
programming with just a little IQ added to note the
RATE of humidity change and react accordingly.

Anyway, a home-grown wet/dry setup is very easy to
realize using ds18b20s and something even as small
as a Uno or Pi0. Adafruit(?) does or did sell a
tiny uC unit (ard compat) with a couple of A/D pins
and I think I2C and/or 1-wire connections. "Trinket" ?
Bought one long back but never got around to using it.
Really small and low power though.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 04/08/2026 01:20, c186282 wrote:

On 8/3/26 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort a
reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people

-a Immediate environment is indeed a complicating factor !
-a Similar issues with getting accurate temperatures. Sun
-a hits a dark or concrete patch 50 yards away at a certain
-a time of day and it may send a plume of hot air at yer
-a device.

My oil tank monitor regularly shows temps over 40-#C in its black case
with the sun shining on it

-a As such, most such measurements are going to just be
-a "(maybe) Good Enough".

-a There are standards for professional instruments like
-a the Weather Service might install at airports and such.
-a A certain kind of housing, placement, height and such.
-a That doesn't mean the readings are 100% accurate, just
-a that they're done in a standard fashion that can more
-a or less be compared to similar installations.

Yes.
The whole concept of 'global average temperature' falls apart when you
realise most of it is interpolated from stations thousands of miles
apart mounted in less than ideal positions.

-a I've used the olde-tyme mechanical drum recorders. It's
-a amazing how much "jitter" you could outright SEE on the
-a paper. Even opening the instrument box caused the figures
-a to jit up or down a little right before your eyes. Means
-a "accuracy" here is always a somewhat soft figure.

Agreed

-a Did a one-off climate gadget for a pro greenhouse once.
-a They had data saying the crop qual would be best at a
-a very specific temperature and humidity. Spent something
-a near $400 (mid 80s dollars) on something that'd be
-a accurate enough to make them happy. It was a wet/dry
-a system (thermocouples I think but can't remember) and had
-a a little fan to suck air past the sensors. You had to
-a re-fill it with water every so many days. Used an 8051 uC
-a for recording AND actuating 'mist' squirters (just a
-a solenoid). The clients sold to the 'elite organic vegan'
-a crowd and could get top dollar for like mini tomatoes
-a and weird salad green shit I'd never eat. Pretty simple
-a programming with just a little IQ added to note the
-a RATE of humidity change and react accordingly.

Nice fun bit of coding

-a Anyway, a home-grown wet/dry setup is very easy to
-a realize using ds18b20s and something even as small
-a as a Uno or Pi0. Adafruit(?) does or did sell a
-a tiny uC unit (ard compat) with a couple of A/D pins
-a and I think I2C and/or 1-wire connections. "Trinket" ?
-a Bought one long back but never got around to using it.
-a Really small and low power though.

I've just used TMP36s on the PCB coupled to a PICO Ws ADC. If the Pi
pico W is permanently powered up I subtract four degrees to compensate
for onboard heating

In practice it seems good to about half a degree -#C

But as you say, issues can be summarised into two camps

1. How accurate is your equipment?
2. How representative is it's siting of the environment you want to monitor?

I may do something with humidity too. Experience suggest you need about
1-#C extra heating for every 10% reduction of in-house humidity.
--
rCLThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnrCOt true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.rCY

rCoSoren Kierkegaard

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/4/26 06:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 01:20, c186282 wrote:

On 8/3/26 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort a
reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people

-a-a Immediate environment is indeed a complicating factor !
-a-a Similar issues with getting accurate temperatures. Sun
-a-a hits a dark or concrete patch 50 yards away at a certain
-a-a time of day and it may send a plume of hot air at yer
-a-a device.

My oil tank monitor regularly shows temps over 40-#C in its black case
with the sun shining on it

Never had to monitor an "oil tank".

But, if exposed to sun/wind/etc, your ARE gonna
get weird figures all day.

As said, Temp/Humidity is a ROUGH figure always.
Never try to get TOO technical on those figures.

-a-a As such, most such measurements are going to just be
-a-a "(maybe) Good Enough".

-a-a There are standards for professional instruments like
-a-a the Weather Service might install at airports and such.
-a-a A certain kind of housing, placement, height and such.
-a-a That doesn't mean the readings are 100% accurate, just
-a-a that they're done in a standard fashion that can more
-a-a or less be compared to similar installations.

Yes.
The whole concept of 'global average temperature' falls apart when you realise most of it is interpolated from stations thousands of miles
apart mounted in less than ideal positions.

This "science" falls apart once you pay even the
slightest attention.

WHAT the fuck is going on - today or this year - is
always kind of a mystery. Butterflies and more
butterflies .........

-a-a I've used the olde-tyme mechanical drum recorders. It's
-a-a amazing how much "jitter" you could outright SEE on the
-a-a paper. Even opening the instrument box caused the figures
-a-a to jit up or down a little right before your eyes. Means
-a-a "accuracy" here is always a somewhat soft figure.

Agreed

From those devices - hell YES. Even tiny shit
would, visibly, influence the figures.

-a-a Did a one-off climate gadget for a pro greenhouse once.
-a-a They had data saying the crop qual would be best at a
-a-a very specific temperature and humidity. Spent something
-a-a near $400 (mid 80s dollars) on something that'd be
-a-a accurate enough to make them happy. It was a wet/dry
-a-a system (thermocouples I think but can't remember) and had
-a-a a little fan to suck air past the sensors. You had to
-a-a re-fill it with water every so many days. Used an 8051 uC
-a-a for recording AND actuating 'mist' squirters (just a
-a-a solenoid). The clients sold to the 'elite organic vegan'
-a-a crowd and could get top dollar for like mini tomatoes
-a-a and weird salad green shit I'd never eat. Pretty simple
-a-a programming with just a little IQ added to note the
-a-a RATE of humidity change and react accordingly.

Nice fun bit of coding

Really wasn't difficult at all. Close to 'fuzzy logic'.
Easy to do with even a '51 so long as you boosted vals
to integers.

Did have a big tome on fuzzy logic - dumped it when
I retired. It DOES have its practical uses though.
Adds some crude "AI" to things with minimal CPU
consumption.

-a-a Anyway, a home-grown wet/dry setup is very easy to
-a-a realize using ds18b20s and something even as small
-a-a as a Uno or Pi0. Adafruit(?) does or did sell a
-a-a tiny uC unit (ard compat) with a couple of A/D pins
-a-a and I think I2C and/or 1-wire connections. "Trinket" ?
-a-a Bought one long back but never got around to using it.
-a-a Really small and low power though.

I've just used TMP36s on the PCB coupled to a PICO Ws ADC. If the Pi
pico W is permanently powered up I subtract-a four degrees to compensate
for onboard heating

PICOs seem pretty good - although the instructions
on-line seem WAY too complicated. Pref'ed PICS back
in the day. A little ASM mixed with 'C' and ....

Do HAVE a PICO ... haven't yet found a use for it.
Will eventually.

I'm gonna still boost the Ard Uno for 'small' stuff.
Massively supported, a lib for EVERYTHING. Cheap,
simple, easy to program. Even has low-power libs
that can put it to sleep between Needs - making
solar-powered apps work good.

In practice it seems good to about half a degree -#C

The 18b20 ??? It IS pretty damned good - and,
with one-wire libs, easy to deal with. Used a
lot of them with uC's, Ards, and lower-end PIs.

More than "good enough".

LAST one I did, for a Pi3, monitored temps in
the "server room". Worked great. Little client/
server app (python) to deliver the info. The
"server room" was an old CLOSET ... an A/C vent
was added but it STILL kinda ran hot. Six
'servers' in there.

But as you say, issues can be summarised into two camps

1. How accurate is your equipment?
2. How representative is it's siting of the environment you want to
monitor?

Don't forget "How Accurate Do You REALLY Need".

Temp/H ... always kinda "fuzzy".

I may do something with humidity too. Experience suggest you need about
1-#C extra heating for every 10% reduction of in-house humidity.

If you WANT ... I'd suggest the little box with two
18b20s - one set with a "wet bulb" ... and a tiny PI
fan that sucks air over the sensors. This is CHEAP
and EASY - you can fab something from junk easily
in an afternoon.

One of those 'travel-sized' Tylenol plastic
bottles are good for yer wet-bulb. Arid
climate, refill once a week. Humid climates
you might get by longer.

Time ... start fan 30 secs early. Take readings.
Turn off fan. 5/10/30 minutes later, repeat.

PICs ... long back MicroChip sold a nice all-purpose
serial programmer box. Fit anything from 12xxx to
all the other 8/16 chips. Great. THEN they Went
Bad ... NOW expensive "ICE" units and you have
to buy pretty dedicated adapters for almost EVERY
kind of chip. A horrible rip-off. USED to use a
lot of PICs - you could even use them to emulate
'smart' 4000 series logic chips if you didn't need
hyper speed - CHEAPER than many 4000 series. Have
not used them for a good decade now ... they just
made it too expensive/complex.

Idiots.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 05/08/2026 06:52, c186282 wrote:

On 8/4/26 06:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 01:20, c186282 wrote:

On 8/3/26 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort
a reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people

-a-a Immediate environment is indeed a complicating factor !
-a-a Similar issues with getting accurate temperatures. Sun
-a-a hits a dark or concrete patch 50 yards away at a certain
-a-a time of day and it may send a plume of hot air at yer
-a-a device.

My oil tank monitor regularly shows temps over 40-#C in its black case
with the sun shining on it

-a Never had to monitor an "oil tank".

-a But, if exposed to sun/wind/etc, your ARE gonna
-a get weird figures all day.

The ultrasonics delay that measures oil level changes with tempertaure
as does the depth of the oil due to expansion., I WANT to know how hot
the tank is.

-a As said, Temp/Humidity is a ROUGH figure always.
-a Never try to get TOO technical on those figures.

-a-a As such, most such measurements are going to just be
-a-a "(maybe) Good Enough".

-a-a There are standards for professional instruments like
-a-a the Weather Service might install at airports and such.
-a-a A certain kind of housing, placement, height and such.
-a-a That doesn't mean the readings are 100% accurate, just
-a-a that they're done in a standard fashion that can more
-a-a or less be compared to similar installations.

Yes.
The whole concept of 'global average temperature' falls apart when you
realise most of it is interpolated from stations thousands of miles
apart mounted in less than ideal positions.

-a This "science" falls apart once you pay even the
-a slightest attention.

Certainly to the depth of precision and alarm its stated with.

-a WHAT the fuck is going on - today or this year - is
-a always kind of a mystery. Butterflies and more
-a butterflies .........

Less butterflies bees and all sorts of insects year upon year. Just infestations of ladybirds, fruit flies and house flies.

-a-a I've used the olde-tyme mechanical drum recorders. It's
-a-a amazing how much "jitter" you could outright SEE on the
-a-a paper. Even opening the instrument box caused the figures
-a-a to jit up or down a little right before your eyes. Means
-a-a "accuracy" here is always a somewhat soft figure.

Agreed

-a From those devices - hell YES. Even tiny shit
-a would, visibly, influence the figures.

I always laugh at the people who say 'solar panels work under cloud'.
Some of us did photography and tow stops in cloud or near sunset - 4
times less light - was the order of the day.

Its all part of the Liberal non scientific brain that doesn't do math, quantitiy or any kind of gradation. It's all black and white.

V8 bad. Solar panel Good

-a-a Did a one-off climate gadget for a pro greenhouse once.
-a-a They had data saying the crop qual would be best at a
-a-a very specific temperature and humidity. Spent something
-a-a near $400 (mid 80s dollars) on something that'd be
-a-a accurate enough to make them happy. It was a wet/dry
-a-a system (thermocouples I think but can't remember) and had
-a-a a little fan to suck air past the sensors. You had to
-a-a re-fill it with water every so many days. Used an 8051 uC
-a-a for recording AND actuating 'mist' squirters (just a
-a-a solenoid). The clients sold to the 'elite organic vegan'
-a-a crowd and could get top dollar for like mini tomatoes
-a-a and weird salad green shit I'd never eat. Pretty simple
-a-a programming with just a little IQ added to note the
-a-a RATE of humidity change and react accordingly.

Nice fun bit of coding

-a Really wasn't difficult at all. Close to 'fuzzy logic'.
-a Easy to do with even a '51 so long as you boosted vals
-a to integers.

-a Did have a big tome on fuzzy logic - dumped it when
-a I retired. It DOES have its practical uses though.
-a Adds some crude "AI" to things with minimal CPU
-a consumption.

Yes.

-a-a Anyway, a home-grown wet/dry setup is very easy to
-a-a realize using ds18b20s and something even as small
-a-a as a Uno or Pi0. Adafruit(?) does or did sell a
-a-a tiny uC unit (ard compat) with a couple of A/D pins
-a-a and I think I2C and/or 1-wire connections. "Trinket" ?
-a-a Bought one long back but never got around to using it.
-a-a Really small and low power though.

I've just used TMP36s on the PCB coupled to a PICO Ws ADC. If the Pi
pico W is permanently powered up I subtract-a four degrees to
compensate for onboard heating

-a PICOs seem pretty good - although the instructions
-a on-line seem WAY too complicated. Pref'ed PICS back
-a in the day. A little ASM mixed with 'C' and ....

-a Do HAVE a PICO ... haven't yet found a use for it.
-a Will eventually.

I found more trouble in setting up the development enviroment (C SDK)
than in coding the little buggers

Although some of the networking libraries are rdacically non Unix in
their layout

-a I'm gonna still boost the Ard Uno for 'small' stuff.
-a Massively supported, a lib for EVERYTHING. Cheap,
-a simple, easy to program. Even has low-power libs
-a that can put it to sleep between Needs - making
-a solar-powered apps work good.

In practice it seems good to about half a degree -#C

-a The 18b20 ??? It IS pretty damned good - and,
-a with one-wire libs, easy to deal with. Used a
-a lot of them with uC's, Ards, and lower-end PIs.

No. The TMP36.

-a More than "good enough".

-a LAST one I did, for a Pi3, monitored temps in
-a the "server room". Worked great. Little client/
-a server app (python) to deliver the info. The
-a "server room" was an old CLOSET ... an A/C vent
-a was added but it STILL kinda ran hot. Six
-a 'servers' in there.

But as you say, issues can be summarised into two camps

1. How accurate is your equipment?
2. How representative is it's siting of the environment you want to
monitor?

-a Don't forget "How Accurate Do You REALLY Need".

-a Temp/H ... always kinda "fuzzy".

I may do something with humidity too. Experience suggest you need
about 1-#C extra heating for every 10% reduction of in-house humidity.

-a If you WANT ... I'd suggest the little box with two
-a 18b20s - one set with a "wet bulb" ... and a tiny PI
-a fan that sucks air over the sensors. This is CHEAP
-a and EASY - you can fab something from junk easily
-a in an afternoon.

Nah. I'll juts buy one of those modules that do it all with resistance
or capacitance

-a One of those 'travel-sized' Tylenol plastic
-a bottles are good for yer wet-bulb. Arid
-a climate, refill once a week. Humid climates
-a you might get by longer.

-a Time ... start fan 30 secs early. Take readings.
-a Turn off fan. 5/10/30 minutes later, repeat.

-a PICs ... long back MicroChip sold a nice all-purpose
-a serial programmer box. Fit anything from 12xxx to
-a all the other 8/16 chips. Great. THEN they Went
-a Bad ... NOW expensive "ICE" units and you have
-a to buy pretty dedicated adapters for almost EVERY
-a kind of chip. A horrible rip-off. USED to use a
-a lot of PICs - you could even use them to emulate
-a 'smart' 4000 series logic chips if you didn't need
-a hyper speed - CHEAPER than many 4000 series. Have
-a not used them for a good decade now ... they just
-a made it too expensive/complex.

-a Idiots.

The model of simply downloading a file over USB to code the Picos is
nice and simple.
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/5/26 08:21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 05/08/2026 06:52, c186282 wrote:

On 8/4/26 06:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 04/08/2026 01:20, c186282 wrote:

On 8/3/26 07:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/08/2026 05:12, c186282 wrote:

kind-of EXACT humidity readings are a sort
-a-a of black art.

The presence of a tree exuding transpired water can totally distort >>>>> a reading
As cam a crowd of sweaty people

-a-a Immediate environment is indeed a complicating factor !
-a-a Similar issues with getting accurate temperatures. Sun
-a-a hits a dark or concrete patch 50 yards away at a certain
-a-a time of day and it may send a plume of hot air at yer
-a-a device.

My oil tank monitor regularly shows temps over 40-#C in its black case
with the sun shining on it

-a-a Never had to monitor an "oil tank".

-a-a But, if exposed to sun/wind/etc, your ARE gonna
-a-a get weird figures all day.

The ultrasonics delay that measures oil level changes with tempertaure
as does the depth of the oil due to expansion., I WANT to know how hot
the tank is.

DID use a bunch of ultrasonic sensors for field projects.
NOT as straight up as promised ... every time you start
them they kinda establish a new 'zero'. Had to write
something that'd start them like five times ... then do
a stat approach to seven readings thereafter. THEN the
numbers were really damned good. Only took like five
or six seconds. Bonus - it disappeared rain/ripple
effects.

The model of simply downloading a file over USB to code the Picos is
nice and simple.

Yea, they ARE 'better' these days.

But I'm still pissed that MicroChip and
friends let it get SO much more complex
and expensive ! They kind of cut their
own throats.

Little uCs ... GREAT devices IF you can
deal with them easily. Found SO many uses
for them in the past. NOW won't touch them.

Last "field environ units" I built used a
PIC 16 and 12 ... didn't even have to think
about using them, replaced several 4000/7000
chips and you could TWEAK them easily.

I like the Ard Uno boards with the socketed
processor chips. The board is both yer
programmer AND test unit. Then pull the chip
and solder it into yer whatever. All CHEAP
and EASY.

Sometimes "high-speed" isn't required for
some I/O situations.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 06/08/2026 07:47, c186282 wrote:

But I'm still pissed that MicroChip and
-a friends let it get SO much more complex
-a and expensive ! They kind of cut their
-a own throats.

I bough ten 2040 based modules fro alixepress for about $10

Essentially pi Pico with no wireless and less pins

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006024307280.html

-a Little uCs ... GREAT devices IF you can
-a deal with them easily. Found SO many uses
-a for them in the past. NOW won't touch them.

Use em a lot
--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

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On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 02:47:37 -0400, c186282 wrote:

I like the Ard Uno boards with the socketed processor chips. The
board is both yer programmer AND test unit. Then pull the chip and
solder it into yer whatever. All CHEAP and EASY.

I have some AVR chips and a STK500 development board from before MicroChip bought Atmel.

https://www.manuallib.com/download//ATMEL-R-STK500-STARTER-KIT-AND- DEVELOPMENT-SYSTEM-MANUAL.PDF

I should see if I can get it going with the current Microchip Studio or whatever they call the current IDE. First step would be a USB/RS232
dongle.

https://wiki.seeedstudio.com/Atmel_AVRISP_STK500_USB_ISP_Programmer/

I'm not sure how this fits in. The only example I've seen uses the Uno
pins to reprogram the boot loader. You would have to build your own board
to replicate the original starter kit.

While the BASIC Stamp, PICAXE, and other devices existed the Arduino made
life much easier. You could say it was something like installing MX or
trying to get a functioning system with Linux From Scratch.

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On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 13:01:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I bough ten 2040 based modules fro alixepress for about $10

Essentially pi Pico with no wireless and less pins

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006024307280.html

They're about $10 apiece on Amazon. AliExpress go hit by the US de minimis ruling. Even before that I didn't use them. I briefly sniffed at STM32 and many people reported AliExpress 'Black Pill' boards definitely were black pills.

Not boards, but I'd ordered Photon Micro Lights from Amazon. Some were
very crude Chinese knockoffs. Even the Phillip screw heads looked like
they'd been chewed in by a gerbil. When I contacted Amazon they reversed
the charges and said to not bother returning the product. That vendor vanished. I imaging AliExpress's response would be 'Not our problem.'

It has been a mystery to me. China can obviously do excellent work but
some Chinese knockoffs have the appearance of the product they are
imitating but are crap. At what point does the manufacturing cost of crap versus doing a little better job make sense?
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 06/08/2026 20:56, rbowman wrote:

t has been a mystery to me. China can obviously do excellent work but
some Chinese knockoffs have the appearance of the product they are
imitating but are crap. At what point does the manufacturing cost of crap versus doing a little better job make sense?

A great deal of chinas 'exports' are only done to gain subsidies. China
wants Western currencies at any price and so shipping any old tat -
generally reject items form the 'failed test' bin - will net you a little.

Same thing happened in the EU. Many countries subsidies various exports.
In Ireland you drove your cows across the border to the North,
technically part of the UK, and collected an EU export subsidy. Then you
drove them back through your neighbours farm that straddled the border
the following night.

I think the best one was the Spanish solar farm collecting subsidies for generation *at night*.

They were using Diesel generators. Diesel cost a lot less than they were
paid for 'green electricity'...
--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

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On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:15:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Same thing happened in the EU. Many countries subsidies various exports.
In Ireland you drove your cows across the border to the North,
technically part of the UK, and collected an EU export subsidy. Then you drove them back through your neighbours farm that straddled the border
the following night.

I don't know if a subsidy is involved but I often buy Kerrygold or
Dubliner cheese. It's excellent and very competitively priced compared to domestic brands like Tillamook. I don't use much butter but what I have is Kerrygold. They're brands of the Ornua dairy co-operative in Dublin.

Does Northern Ireland still have that strange status in the EU? I remember
the discussions about the problems if there was a border with the Republic
but haven't kept up.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

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On 07/08/2026 04:41, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:15:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Same thing happened in the EU. Many countries subsidies various exports.
In Ireland you drove your cows across the border to the North,
technically part of the UK, and collected an EU export subsidy. Then you
drove them back through your neighbours farm that straddled the border
the following night.

I don't know if a subsidy is involved but I often buy Kerrygold or
Dubliner cheese. It's excellent and very competitively priced compared to domestic brands like Tillamook. I don't use much butter but what I have is Kerrygold. They're brands of the Ornua dairy co-operative in Dublin.

Kerrygold is nice butter.

I buy supermarket own brand which is probably Kerrygold in a plain wrapper.

Cheese? Ireland nothing special, rest of EU infinitely better - so many
types available.

It's the one thing I do buy from the EU, that and some wines, although
it's just as likely to S American, S African, Australian or New Zealand.

Or even middle eastern - had Lebanese wine once. Not bad.

Does Northern Ireland still have that strange status in the EU? I remember the discussions about the problems if there was a border with the Republic but haven't kept up.

Yes. It is still being used as a lever to 'control the UK' . E.g. we are
not allowed to zero rate VAT on domestic fuel because that would break
the agreement in N Ireland as peole would buy heating oil in the North
and drive it to the South, and with 'no borders' no one would stop them.

Most UK political class never wanted to leave the EU. They love all the bureaucracy and the freedom from prosecution and the corruption.

WE are still fighting
--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...rCY

Tom Wolfe

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On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 12:26:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Cheese? Ireland nothing special, rest of EU infinitely better - so many
types available.

The Dubliner sharp cheddar is nothing special as far as cheese goes but it tends to be slightly less expensive than the domestic nothing special
cheddars and actually is sharp. I enjoy cheese and often buy other
European brands -- while carefully adjusting my blinders to avoid seeing
the price per pound. For that matter I just finished some domestic
huckleberry Wensleydale that was not cheap.

Note: not 'Yorkshire Wensleydale'. Despite its junkyard dog approach to IP
the US has played rather fast and loose with trademarked terms before it
was even a country. Ripping off the Willow pattern made Britain
especially irate. It may not have been the pattern but the temerity of the colonials making their own tableware.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/08/2026 19:29, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 12:26:13 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Cheese? Ireland nothing special, rest of EU infinitely better - so many
types available.

The Dubliner sharp cheddar is nothing special as far as cheese goes but it tends to be slightly less expensive than the domestic nothing special cheddars and actually is sharp. I enjoy cheese and often buy other
European brands -- while carefully adjusting my blinders to avoid seeing
the price per pound. For that matter I just finished some domestic huckleberry Wensleydale that was not cheap.

Glad you can get something resembling real cheese/ Yes, wensleydale with cranberries is fashionable here.

But for me., Port, Stilton and sweet grapes is the dogs bollocks.

You should ask Carlos nicely to send you some Manchego.
I dunno if its made in Mexico, but its a fine cheese.

Note: not 'Yorkshire Wensleydale'. Despite its junkyard dog approach to IP the US has played rather fast and loose with trademarked terms before it
was even a country. Ripping off the Willow pattern made Britain
especially irate. It may not have been the pattern but the temerity of the colonials making their own tableware.

Yeah. USA then like China is now...
--
ItrCOs easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain



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On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 21:52:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You should ask Carlos nicely to send you some Manchego.
I dunno if its made in Mexico, but its a fine cheese.

Mahcnego is available but it has nothing to do with the Spanish sheep milk version. What I haven't seen lately is Cambazola. It's German and as the
name implies is a cross between Camembert and Gorgonzola. The name also cleverly gets around the EU protected designation of origin stuff.

The US isn't bound by PDO niceties. If it looks like Stilton and tastes
like Stilton, it's Stilton. I've never seen domestic Gjetost although it
may exist. Ski Queen has had that market covered for decades.

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2026-08-08 06:23, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 21:52:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You should ask Carlos nicely to send you some Manchego.
I dunno if its made in Mexico, but its a fine cheese.

Mahcnego is available but it has nothing to do with the Spanish sheep milk version. What I haven't seen lately is Cambazola. It's German and as the
name implies is a cross between Camembert and Gorgonzola. The name also cleverly gets around the EU protected designation of origin stuff.

The US isn't bound by PDO niceties. If it looks like Stilton and tastes
like Stilton, it's Stilton. I've never seen domestic Gjetost although it
may exist. Ski Queen has had that market covered for decades.

Manchego is a protected denomination, can not be made outside of La
Mancha region. But I would not be surprised that countries of Spanish inheritance with a similar climate make very similar, perhaps identical cheese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchego
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ESEfc-Efc+, EUEfc-Efc|;
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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 09:07:58 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Manchego is a protected denomination, can not be made outside of La
Mancha region. But I would not be surprised that countries of Spanish inheritance with a similar climate make very similar, perhaps identical cheese.

https://culturecheesemag.com/cheese-iq/spanish-manchego-vs-mexican-
manchego/

We sneer at your EU laws.

https://cheesemakers.com/cheese/queso-manchego/

The Spanish variety goes for close to $50 per pound. The Mexican type is
about $10. It's very similar to Monterey Jack:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monterey_Jack

I have some Pepper Jack in the refrigerator. Tomorrow morning I plan to
saute some garlic, jalapeno pepper, onion, and tomato. When it's ready
I'll break two eggs on it and throw a slice of pepper jack on for good measure. Actually, that's how most mornings start for me.

Mexican Manchego is used about the same way, melted over quesadillas or tortilla chips for nachos. Good, but definitely not a gourmet item.

Mexico and other Latin American countries have had about 500 years to go
their own way. You might even have difficulty with the Spanish. For that matter Columbians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans etc sort of understand each
other. A perfect Castillian accent might get you labeled a maricon.
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On 08/08/2026 05:23, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 21:52:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You should ask Carlos nicely to send you some Manchego.
I dunno if its made in Mexico, but its a fine cheese.

Mahcnego is available but it has nothing to do with the Spanish sheep milk version. What I haven't seen lately is Cambazola. It's German and as the
name implies is a cross between Camembert and Gorgonzola. The name also cleverly gets around the EU protected designation of origin stuff.

A nice cheese

The US isn't bound by PDO niceties. If it looks like Stilton and tastes
like Stilton, it's Stilton.

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

But there are a range of other blue cheeses that are available.
Gorgonzola and Roquefort are delicious.

I've never seen domestic Gjetost although it
may exist. Ski Queen has had that market covered for decades.

There's a heinously expensive cheese from Norway that is available here.

Sn|+frisk... it really is exceptional though

My local supermarket probably stocks well over 50 cheese types
--
rCLwhen things get difficult you just have to lierCY

rCo Jean Claud J|+ncker

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/08/2026 08:07, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2026-08-08 06:23, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2026 21:52:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

You should ask Carlos nicely to send you some Manchego.
I dunno if its made in Mexico, but its a fine cheese.

Mahcnego is available but it has nothing to do with the Spanish sheep
milk
version. What I haven't seen lately is Cambazola. It's German and as the
name implies is a cross between Camembert and Gorgonzola. The name also
cleverly gets around the EU protected designation of origin stuff.

The US isn't bound by PDO niceties. If it looks like Stilton and tastes
like Stilton, it's Stilton. I've never seen domestic Gjetost although it
may exist. Ski Queen has had that market covered for decades.

Manchego is a protected denomination, can not be made outside of La
Mancha region. But I would not be surprised that countries of Spanish inheritance with a similar climate make very similar, perhaps identical cheese.

I didn't know that. Manchego with olives and Chorizo...yumm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchego

That seems to say that USA calls something that, but it isn't actually
like Manchego
--
rCLThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell


--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

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On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:11:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That seems to say that USA calls something that, but it isn't actually
like Manchego

I don't think I've ever seen Spanish Manchego but I'll have to look closer
in one of the stores that carries specialty cheeses. The pre-wrapped
packages are rather small in hopes you won't realize how much per pound
you're paying.

The version made in Mexico and the US is a mild cheese made from cows'
milk and has been around far longer than the EU's PDO. There are many
items in the Americas that were named after similar European products. I
don't think anyone ever tried for PDO status but the US produces many more tons of 'cheddar' cheese than Britain. Some of it is quite good but almost
any slop with an orange color might be called 'cheddar'.



--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/08/2026 19:02, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:11:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That seems to say that USA calls something that, but it isn't actually
like Manchego

I don't think I've ever seen Spanish Manchego but I'll have to look closer
in one of the stores that carries specialty cheeses. The pre-wrapped
packages are rather small in hopes you won't realize how much per pound you're paying.

The version made in Mexico and the US is a mild cheese made from cows'
milk and has been around far longer than the EU's PDO. There are many
items in the Americas that were named after similar European products. I don't think anyone ever tried for PDO status but the US produces many more tons of 'cheddar' cheese than Britain. Some of it is quite good but almost any slop with an orange color might be called 'cheddar'.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Low-Voltage-Degree-Edison-DC12-36V/dp/B07XSG23WF/ref=asc_df_B07XSG23WF

It is almost the same in the UK TBH. If you want traditional favour you
go to the deli counter


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:08:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

I have had imported Stilton and Wensleydale but most are domestic.

But there are a range of other blue cheeses that are available.
Gorgonzola and Roquefort are delicious.

The French always were snippy about their foodstuffs so Roquefort like
cheese is often labeled Blue or Bleu. It's like Champagne being called sparkling wine. Over the last few decades there has been less compliance
with French quibbles. Damn surrender monkeys...

There's a heinously expensive cheese from Norway that is available here.

Sn|+frisk... it really is exceptional though

I haven't seen that one locally.

https://www.scanspecialties.com/products/snofrisk-spreadable-goat-cheese- from-norway

It isn't terribly expensive although it isn't something I would buy. There
are plenty of domestic goat cheese varieties. My favorite has cranberries
and cinnamon but it only appears around Christmas.

Gjetost is unique and I've never seen a domestic product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunost

My local supermarket probably stocks well over 50 cheese types

The Good Food Store may match that. It's sort of a local version of Whole Foods. The other supermarkets have a good selection, some more than
others. The specialty cheeses have their own section that's usually in a different area than the commodity cheeses.



--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 8/8/26 14:31, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:08:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

I have had imported Stilton and Wensleydale but most are domestic.

This beginning to sound like the old Python
"Cheese-shop sketch" :-)

--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 09/08/2026 02:22, c186282 wrote:

On 8/8/26 14:31, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:08:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

I have had imported Stilton and Wensleydale but most are domestic.

-a This beginning to sound like the old Python
-a "Cheese-shop sketch"-a :-)

Not without reason.

Huge swathes of Britain and W Europe are very lush to the point of
being not that suitable for cereal crops. Grazing cattle on them works.
And that leads to a surplus of milk, so what else but make butter and
cheese?
--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:55:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Huge swathes of Britain and W Europe are very lush to the point of
being not that suitable for cereal crops. Grazing cattle on them works.
And that leads to a surplus of milk, so what else but make butter and
cheese?

Slop the hogs? While New York State residents get their hackles up if
referred to as 'New England' agriculture where I grew up was primarily
dairy and apples. You grow what you can. There are quite a few dairy farms
in this area too.

Jared Diamond's 'Collapse' focuses in part on western Montana. You can
grow much besides hay and even that ability is fragile according to him.
Of course, he also theorizes the Norse left Greenland after the climate deteriorated because they wouldn't eat fish. The American Anthropological Society produced 'Questioning Collapse', a selection of essays pointing
out the errors in Diamond's 'science'.
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 09/08/2026 19:03, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2026 13:55:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Huge swathes of Britain and W Europe are very lush to the point of
being not that suitable for cereal crops. Grazing cattle on them works.
And that leads to a surplus of milk, so what else but make butter and
cheese?

Slop the hogs? While New York State residents get their hackles up if referred to as 'New England' agriculture where I grew up was primarily
dairy and apples. You grow what you can. There are quite a few dairy farms
in this area too.

Jared Diamond's 'Collapse' focuses in part on western Montana. You can
grow much besides hay and even that ability is fragile according to him.
Of course, he also theorizes the Norse left Greenland after the climate deteriorated because they wouldn't eat fish. The American Anthropological Society produced 'Questioning Collapse', a selection of essays pointing
out the errors in Diamond's 'science'.

I never regarded Jared as science, Interestring ideas though.]

If you want to read about societal collpase thenread Tainter's 'collapse
of complex civilisations'

The terrifying point that he makes is that we are in fact in the middle
of a collapse right now...
--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

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On 2026-08-09, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 8/8/26 14:31, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:08:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

I have had imported Stilton and Wensleydale but most are domestic.

This beginning to sound like the old Python
"Cheese-shop sketch" :-)

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to shoot you.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people:
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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On 8/9/26 23:26, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-08-09, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:

On 8/8/26 14:31, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2026 13:08:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Well its not much different here. 'Stiltons' are made all over the
country. As are 'Cheddars'

I have had imported Stilton and Wensleydale but most are domestic.

This beginning to sound like the old Python
"Cheese-shop sketch" :-)

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to shoot you.

And a well-deserved execution it was ! :-)

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