• New term for engineering

    From Lane W@cactus_DAC@yahoo.com to comp.misc on Thu Sep 17 07:30:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    When I conduct Electrical Engineering, I am 'creationisming', this encapsulates all the ingenious invention that goes into my work. When I
    go out and garden, I am 'earthrapturing' the vegetables. It's cooler
    this way.
    --
    It turns a basic desk job into international espionage just because you
    wear a hoodie and stare at a black screen.

    It makes typing print("hello") sound like you are casting an ancient
    spell that bends the fabric of reality.

    It shrinks three days of tearing your hair out over a broken database
    into a cute little activity you tell your grandparents you do for fun.
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  • From Nuno Silva@nunojsilva@invalid.invalid to comp.misc on Fri Sep 18 00:35:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On 2026-09-17, Lane W wrote:

    When I conduct Electrical Engineering, I am 'creationisming', this encapsulates all the ingenious invention that goes into my work. When
    I go out and garden, I am 'earthrapturing' the vegetables. It's cooler
    this way.

    Wait until you hear about the ways in which the term "computer science"
    is used to mean stuff other than the study of computation :-)
    --
    Nuno Silva
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  • From ram@ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) to comp.misc on Fri Sep 18 08:47:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:
    Wait until you hear about the ways in which the term "computer science"
    is used to mean stuff other than the study of computation :-)

    |"Computer science" is a terrible name for this business.
    |First of all, it's not a science. It might be engineering or
    |it might be art, but we'll actually see that computer
    |so-called science actually has a lot in common with magic . . .
    |So it's not a science. It's also not really very much about
    |computers. And it's not about computers in the same sense
    |that physics is not really about particle accelerators,
    |and biology is not really about microscopes and petri dishes.
    |And it's not about computers in the same sense that geometry
    |is not really about using surveying instruments.
    Hal Abelson


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  • From kludge@kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) to comp.misc on Fri Sep 18 16:06:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
    Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:
    Wait until you hear about the ways in which the term "computer science"
    is used to mean stuff other than the study of computation :-)

    Hal Abelson writes:
    |"Computer science" is a terrible name for this business.
    |First of all, it's not a science. It might be engineering or
    |it might be art, but we'll actually see that computer
    |so-called science actually has a lot in common with magic . . .


    I agree and disagree, in that actual real computer science is a branch
    of discrete mathematics. It's not a science, it's math. But calling
    it "computer math" would be even more wrong.

    I do think "Informatics" is probably a better word and that isn't quite
    right either.

    But yes, most of what is called "CS" has nothing to do with actual CS
    at all... but sometimes people get CS degrees that are based mostly on
    actual CS.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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  • From =?UTF-8?B?Q8OzaWzDrW4=?= =?UTF-8?B?IE5pb2Nsw6Fzw61u?= =?UTF-8?B?IEdsb3N0w6lpcg==?=@thanks-to@Taf.com to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 01:24:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Stefan Ram <ram@Zedat.FU-Berlin.De> schrieb: |------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted: | |>Wait until you hear about the ways in which the term "computer science"|
    is used to mean stuff other than the study of computation :-)" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Persons profess about computer science without knowing about what they
    profess about computer science.

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"|"Computer science" is a terrible name for this business. | ||First of all, it's not a science." | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Computer science is a science. Cf. Definitions 1 ("Knowledge.") and 3
    ("Art [. . .]") of science in Samuel Johnson, "A
    DICTIONARY
    OF THE
    ENGLISH LANGUAGE:
    IN WHICH
    THE WORDS ARE DEDUCED FROM THEIR ORIGINALS,
    AND ILLUSTRATED IN THEIR DIFFERENT SIGNIFICATIONS BY EXAMPLES FROM THE
    BEST WRITERS,
    TO WHICH ARE PREFIXED,
    A HISTORY OF THE LANGUAGE,
    AND
    AN ENGLISH GRAMMAR.", THE SIXTH EDITION,
    M.DCC.LXXXV (apparently 1785, though that author was supposedly
    already dead by then), HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Englischunterricht/Samuel_Johnson/SCIENCE_defined_by_Samuel_Johnson.pdf

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" It might be engineering" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    A dictionary defines engineering in terms of science.

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" or |
    ||it might be art," | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    A science is an art.

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" but we'll actually see that computer | ||so-called science actually has a lot in common with magic . . . |
    |[. . .] |
    |Hal Abelson" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Johnson (M.DCC.LXXXV) defines a magician as
    rCLOne
    ++killed [. . .]rCY
    and
    a ++kill as
    "knowledge".

    HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Englischunterricht/Samuel_Johnson/MAGICIAN.PDF HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Englischunterricht/Samuel_Johnson/SKILL.PDF

    (S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)
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  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 03:49:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    On Sun, 20 Sep 2026 01:24:11 -0000 (UTC), C||il|!n Niocl|is|!n Glost|-ir
    wrote:

    Persons profess about computer science without knowing about what
    they profess about computer science.

    For most of the last half-millennium, the entirety of the structure of
    science has rested on two fundamental pillars: physics and
    mathematics. You couldnrCOt really make much sense out of the rest of
    science without something of these two seeping in. And of course
    physics itself has been heavily mathematical since its early days.

    In the last century, a third pillar has been added: computing. That,
    too, has now become fundamental to the operations of all the other
    sciences. And that includes physics and mathematics as well.

    But then, there is another thread that runs through all of science,
    and that is art. Many people see science and art as somehow opposites,
    and assume that those who appreciate one cannot appreciate the other.
    But really, they are complementary ways of understanding reality, and
    are at heart inseparable from each other, as the late, great polymath, physicist, biologist, poet, literary critic Jacob Bronowski well
    understood.

    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFgnGUL78MU>
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  • From Lane W@cactus_DAC@yahoo.com to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 02:44:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    C||il|!n Niocl|is|!n Glost|-ir wrote:
    Stefan Ram <ram@Zedat.FU-Berlin.De> schrieb: |------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted: | |>Wait until you hear about the ways in which the term "computer science"| |>is used to mean stuff other than the study of computation :-)" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Persons profess about computer science without knowing about what they profess about computer science.

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"|"Computer science" is a terrible name for this business. | ||First of all, it's not a science." | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    Computer science is a science. Cf. Definitions 1 ("Knowledge.") and 3
    ("Art [. . .]") of science in Samuel Johnson, "A
    DICTIONARY
    OF THE
    ENGLISH LANGUAGE:
    IN WHICH
    THE WORDS ARE DEDUCED FROM THEIR ORIGINALS,
    AND ILLUSTRATED IN THEIR DIFFERENT SIGNIFICATIONS BY EXAMPLES FROM THE
    BEST WRITERS,
    TO WHICH ARE PREFIXED,
    A HISTORY OF THE LANGUAGE,
    AND
    AN ENGLISH GRAMMAR.", THE SIXTH EDITION,
    M.DCC.LXXXV (apparently 1785, though that author was supposedly
    already dead by then), HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/Englischunterricht/Samuel_Johnson/SCIENCE_defined_by_Samuel_Johnson.pdf

    |------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    |" It might be engineering" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------|

    A dictionary defines engineering in terms of science.

    Hardly. You forgot math, which is to be expected of a computer
    scientist. You guys skipped most basic math, did a few combinations and permutations then called yourselves mathematicians.

    Engineering is the practical application of science and mathematics to
    design, build, and improve structures, machines, systems, and processes
    that solve human problems.

    According to sources like Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia, engineering
    bridges the gap between scientific discovery and practical use.

    Now, if you want to quit being patronizing and discuss some probability
    I will engage you. In all other cases, return to 3rd grade remedial math
    and open your textbook, begin reading, et al.
    --
    Everything I fight for leaves a bitter taste
    Everything I cry for laughs into my face
    Everything I scream for barely knows my name
    Everything I'd die for will die just the same
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  • From Lane W@cactus_DAC@yahoo.com to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 02:46:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Sep 2026 01:24:11 -0000 (UTC), C||il|!n Niocl|is|!n Glost|-ir wrote:

    Persons profess about computer science without knowing about what
    they profess about computer science.

    For most of the last half-millennium, the entirety of the structure of science has rested on two fundamental pillars: physics and
    mathematics. You couldnrCOt really make much sense out of the rest of
    science without something of these two seeping in. And of course
    physics itself has been heavily mathematical since its early days.

    In the last century, a third pillar has been added: computing. That,
    too, has now become fundamental to the operations of all the other
    sciences. And that includes physics and mathematics as well.

    Notice no mention of medieval torture devices, The Cell, et al.

    Gosh you guys are innocents!
    --
    Everything I fight for leaves a bitter taste
    Everything I cry for laughs into my face
    Everything I scream for barely knows my name
    Everything I'd die for will die just the same
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  • From kludge@kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 09:27:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Hardly. You forgot math, which is to be expected of a computer
    scientist. You guys skipped most basic math, did a few combinations and >permutations then called yourselves mathematicians.

    Dunno. I did a CS degree and had to take two years of continuous math
    (through ordinary differential equations), graph theory, combinatorics, and then a year of theory of computation which was 90% proofs. And a statistics class, which you might argue isn't math. And I was in a program that came
    out of an engineering department; CS programs that came out of math
    departments had a different fundamental curriculum and often more discrete math.

    I didn't have to take any higher algebra or number theory classes, though, which might have benefitted me.

    This is more or less typical for programs using the ACM curriculum (although the ACM curriculum doesn't require anywhere near as much continuous math).

    Engineering is the practical application of science and mathematics to >design, build, and improve structures, machines, systems, and processes
    that solve human problems.

    Yes, that seems a fair definition.

    According to sources like Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia, engineering
    bridges the gap between scientific discovery and practical use.

    Yes.
    The optimist sees an glass half-full
    The pessimist sees a glass half-empty
    The engineer sees a 50% safety margin against overflow.

    I will say that the way math is taught in engineering programs is completely different than the way it's taught in math programs. My freshman calculus classes were all about being able to do derivatives and integrals as quickly
    as possible in closed form... there were no proofs and few explanations,
    just memorization of methods, and as many methods as possible given the time allowed. When I went to EE grad school I was glad of this but it was not pleasant to learn.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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  • From Lane W@cactus_DAC@yahoo.com to comp.misc on Sun Sep 20 10:16:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.misc

    Scott Dorsey wrote:

    Yes.
    The optimist sees an glass half-full
    The pessimist sees a glass half-empty
    The engineer sees a 50% safety margin against overflow.

    Or, the container is twice as big as it needs to be.

    I will say that the way math is taught in engineering programs is completely different than the way it's taught in math programs. My freshman calculus classes were all about being able to do derivatives and integrals as quickly as possible in closed form... there were no proofs and few explanations,
    just memorization of methods, and as many methods as possible given the time allowed. When I went to EE grad school I was glad of this but it was not pleasant to learn.

    Yes, it was completely different from that for me in grad school. Not at
    all memorization, class, day after day was long proofs of stochastic principles scrawling across three chalkboards.

    What I'm facing right now is a growing pile of projects that are
    mathematical modeling of program input, queries, and manipulations.

    The problem is that there are time caps. From what I can tell, it is prohibitive often of explicit modeling of the operation in an array or whatever. For example, if the operations of a sort are to be conveyed,
    it will be too time consuming to store the array, sort the array
    according to the apropos sort (be it insertion or adjacency sort), and annotate it while that sort is taking place.

    If the meat is cut out, the explicit internal sorting of the array, I
    believe it will be sufficiently expedient.

    Whatever you can say, actually moving those elements around is probably
    a big waste of time, because that's not what the program needs to do. It
    only needs to list the positions that are moved. This extends to a great number of projects in my back load.

    Put simply,

    When an input string of parentheses becomes so massive that the raw read/ingestion time of the string itself is the primary bottleneck, traditional linear algorithms (like a sequential single-threaded stack)
    hit a wall. If your data is gigabytes or terabytes long, a single CPU
    core reading character-by-character cannot scale.-aTo manipulate and
    validate parenthesis strings when the input size is the limiting factor, computer scientists shift away from simple stacks toward architecture
    built for parallelism, SIMD acceleration, hardware-native streaming, and algebraic properties.-a1. Parallel and MapReduce Processing (The Monoid Approach)To process massive inputs across multiple CPU cores or
    distributed machines, you cannot use a normal stack because a stack
    requires knowing everything that came before it. Instead, the problem is treated as an algebraic monoid.-aHacker NewsThe Concept: Any chunk of parentheses can be reduced down to a simple pair of numbers: (unmatched_closed, unmatched_open). For example, the slice )))()(((
    reduces to (2, 3) because the inner () cancels out, leaving 2 unmatched closers and 3 unmatched openers.-aWhy it works for huge data: This
    reduction operation is associative. You can split a 10-gigabyte file
    into 100 separate 100-megabyte chunks. 100 different threads or machines
    can scan their chunks entirely independently in parallel.-aThe Merge
    step: Once each thread computes its local (closed, open) pair, a master
    thread merges those pairs using a simple formula:\[\text{Merged\ unmatched\_closed}=c_{1}+\max (0,c_{2}-o_{1})\]\[\text{Merged\ unmatched\_open}=o_{2}+\max (0,o_{1}-c_{2})\]Because the merge step
    takes \(O(1)\) constant time, the overall runtime scales strictly with
    how fast your hardware can split and stream the raw bytes in
    parallel.-a2. SIMD Acceleration (Vectorization)When a single machine
    needs to parse data at the absolute limit of memory bandwidth (e.g.,
    dozens of gigabytes per second), it uses SIMD (Single Instruction,
    Multiple Data) instructions supported by modern CPUs (like Intel's
    AVX-512 or ARM's Neon).-aHow it beats the bottleneck: Instead of a loop inspecting one byte at a time, SIMD registers can load 32 or 64
    characters at once into a single vector pipeline.-aThe Bitmask Trick: The
    CPU executes a vector comparison to instantly create a bitmask of where
    the ( and ) are. Using population count (popcount) and bitwise shifts,
    the hardware computes the prefix sums of the nested depths for 64
    characters simultaneously in a fraction of a CPU cycle. This technique bypasses traditional branch instructions entirely, preventing CPU branch mispredictionsrCowhich are usually a massive penalty when parsing random
    data streams.-a3. Tree-Structured Parentheses Manipulation (Finger Trees
    & Rope Data Structures)If the goal is not just checking if they match,
    but actively manipulating them (e.g., cutting a 1 GB chunk out of the
    middle, pasting it elsewhere, and checking if it's still valid),
    re-scanning the string would be disastrous.-aRopes / 2-3 Finger Trees:
    Rather than a flat array or string, the parenthesis sequence is stored
    as a balanced tree where the leaf nodes contain segments of the
    text.Augmented Metadata: Each internal node in the tree stores the
    aggregated (unmatched_closed, unmatched_open) monoid value of its
    children.The Payoff: If you insert or delete text, you only need to
    update the nodes along the path from the leaf to the root (\(O(\log N)\) time). The tree instantly recalculates whether the entire multi-gigabyte document remains balanced without ever touching 99.9% of the actual characters.-a4. Hardware-Level Streaming (Memory-Mapped Files &
    Zero-Copy)When input size is the limiting factor, standard I/O overhead (copying data from the hard drive to kernel space, then to user space,
    then parsing it) will kill performance before an algorithm even starts.-aMemory-Mapped Files (mmap): The system maps the massive file
    directly into the processrCOs virtual memory space. The OS pages the data directly from the disk cache straight into the CPU caches as
    needed.Zero-Copy Parsing: The algorithms operate directly on the
    byte-stream pointer provided by mmap. No strings are allocated, no sub-segments are copied, and no memory overhead is spent. The
    performance curve aligns perfectly with the physical sequential read
    speed of the underlying NVMe SSD or network storage.
    --
    Everything I fight for leaves a bitter taste
    Everything I cry for laughs into my face
    Everything I scream for barely knows my name
    Everything I'd die for will die just the same
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