• AI Forth Embedded Pair-Programming: Big Fail !

    From Terry Porter@techman001@eternal-september.org to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 02:36:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    https://youtu.be/1aGIpoakZTY

    The third and most honest episode in the story of a technician and his AI partner rCo and the one where the partnership finds its real shape.

    It started with a clean win. In Python, Tkinter, databases and glue code, DeepSeek proved invaluable rCo it co-authored Regmon, the register monitor
    that reads the live STM32 silicon over the debug wire, and LiveCheck, the
    tool that checks your Forth against the real chip as you type. Two applications a technician needed for decades. The tooling was a complete, unambiguous success.

    Then came the walls. The hardware wall rCo a Nokia 5110 LCD brought up over
    and over, every blank screen tracing back to a wire, never a word. The lesson: the human proves the bench, the agent amplifies the design. Then the configuration wall rCo the code claiming the SPI was a master while the live register read showed it running as a slave, plus a timing trap that truncated every byte. Both found by believing the silicon, not the comments.

    And then, once every piece of infrastructure was in place rCo the hardware proven, the SQLite databases built, the MCP servers wired rCo the real wall appeared. The one the tooling can't fix: the training data.

    DeepSeek is deeply trained in Python and C, but Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth is a niche dialect of a niche language, and the model's training data for it is thin rCo beginner-level at best. The AI can read registers, build databases and write
    MCP servers, but when it comes to actually designing and writing the Forth, it is honestly a basic Forth beginner.

    Terry's conclusion, stated plainly: the agent builds the tooling and answers the design questions, but the human does all the Forth design rCo including the coding. For now, Terry does Forth bench development alone. No more pair programming in embedded Forth. Not a failure rCo an honest division of labour, found the hard way, and it works.

    This may change as training data grows, or if the C ecosystem shifts. But for now: the tools are there, the design is human, and that's the honest state of AI and Forth on a real bench.

    (About the teller: Terry Porter is a 72-year-old electronics technician with
    50 years of soldering and circuits, Forth since the 1990s. He dictates his notes and an AI helps him write them up clearly rCo but the bench work itself, the registers, the LEDs, the clocks, the measurements, is his, done live.)

    Produced with the help of AI without which this video would not have been possible

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  • From albert@albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 10:06:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    In article <1175dne$1eoec$1@dont-email.me>,
    Terry Porter <techman001@eternal-september.org> wrote: >https://youtu.be/1aGIpoakZTY

    <SNIP>
    Then came the walls. The hardware wall rCo a Nokia 5110 LCD brought up over >and over, every blank screen tracing back to a wire, never a word. The lesson: >the human proves the bench, the agent amplifies the design. Then the >configuration wall rCo the code claiming the SPI was a master while the live >register read showed it running as a slave, plus a timing trap that truncated >every byte. Both found by believing the silicon, not the comments.

    This is to me incomprehensible, bordering to nonsense.
    <SNIP>

    Produced with the help of AI without which this video would not have been >possible

    As the result is not satisfying, I think you should try harder.

    Groetjes Albert


    --
    The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
    The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
    over 80 years, like Western Europe.
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  • From Terry Porter@techman001@eternal-september.org to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 08:44:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 2026-09-01, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> wrote:
    In article <1175dne$1eoec$1@dont-email.me>,
    Terry Porter <techman001@eternal-september.org> wrote:
    https://youtu.be/1aGIpoakZTY

    <SNIP>
    Then came the walls. The hardware wall rCo a Nokia 5110 LCD brought up over >>and over, every blank screen tracing back to a wire, never a word. The lesson:
    the human proves the bench, the agent amplifies the design. Then the >>configuration wall rCo the code claiming the SPI was a master while the live >>register read showed it running as a slave, plus a timing trap that truncated >>every byte. Both found by believing the silicon, not the comments.

    This is to me incomprehensible, bordering to nonsense.

    That's one of the reasons I'm no longer trying to use an Agent to write my Forth code, it can't make embedded designs work and can't explain why.

    This is further complicated by NotebookLM which while adding a lot of extra insight does get carried away at times.

    I haven't got the display working yet as I'm not a programmer, however I'm slowly working my way thru it using a local agent to explain the pieces.
    I have not worked with matrix displays before so it is all new ground to
    me.

    <SNIP>

    Produced with the help of AI without which this video would not have been >>possible

    As the result is not satisfying, I think you should try harder.

    I'm sorry you are not satisfied, Albert, I had hoped the video would would be informative for those contemplating using embedded Forth with AI.

    I put a lot of time and effort into the hardware, the experimentation and
    the documentation.

    Perhaps others will try similar experiments (I hope so), but so far I seem to be the only hardware guy publishing any material in this embedded area.


    Groetjes Albert



    Cheers,
    Terry
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  • From albert@albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 12:39:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    In article <117639r$1l4q1$1@dont-email.me>,
    Terry Porter <techman001@eternal-september.org> wrote:
    <SNIP>
    I'm sorry you are not satisfied, Albert, I had hoped the video would would be >informative for those contemplating using embedded Forth with AI.

    Not so much informative, as inspiring. That is okay too.

    Groetjes Albert



    Cheers,
    Terry
    --
    The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
    The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
    over 80 years, like Western Europe.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hans Bezemer@the.beez.speaks@gmail.com to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 19:03:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    Well, 40 minutes, often watching the very same image for over five
    minutes with AI voices blabbering away. I mean: really?

    But I can tell you what's the limiting factor to AI and Forth. When
    there are more than three values to handle, things get tricky -- and AI generation becomes more prone to error.

    BTW, I've gained that number from theoretical analysis and observing the
    AI countless times. I gave the AI a simple mission: write me a fast
    integer square root routine. Gemini managed it -- but I had to fix
    several errors.

    https://sourceforge.net/p/forth-4th/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/4th.src/lib/gsqrt.4th

    Grok has been the only one so far who wrote a flawless word. Now --
    that's child's play. Others have confirmed as well that AI and Forth are
    not the best couple to do code generation. So, I guess I'm not the only
    one having that experience.

    https://sourceforge.net/p/forth-4th/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/4th.src/lib/msqrt.4th

    That doesn't mean AI and Forth development aren't compatible. AI is
    eerily capable to analyze Forth code. It does a fair job playing a
    sparring partner -- like debugging or optimization. But plain code
    generation? Building your own code is faster IMHO.

    Hans Bezemer

    On 01-09-2026 04:36, Terry Porter wrote:
    https://youtu.be/1aGIpoakZTY

    The third and most honest episode in the story of a technician and his AI partner rCo and the one where the partnership finds its real shape.

    It started with a clean win. In Python, Tkinter, databases and glue code, DeepSeek proved invaluable rCo it co-authored Regmon, the register monitor that reads the live STM32 silicon over the debug wire, and LiveCheck, the tool that checks your Forth against the real chip as you type. Two applications
    a technician needed for decades. The tooling was a complete, unambiguous success.

    Then came the walls. The hardware wall rCo a Nokia 5110 LCD brought up over and over, every blank screen tracing back to a wire, never a word. The lesson:
    the human proves the bench, the agent amplifies the design. Then the configuration wall rCo the code claiming the SPI was a master while the live register read showed it running as a slave, plus a timing trap that truncated every byte. Both found by believing the silicon, not the comments.

    And then, once every piece of infrastructure was in place rCo the hardware proven, the SQLite databases built, the MCP servers wired rCo the real wall appeared. The one the tooling can't fix: the training data.

    DeepSeek is deeply trained in Python and C, but Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth is a niche dialect of a niche language, and the model's training data for it is thin
    rCo beginner-level at best. The AI can read registers, build databases and write
    MCP servers, but when it comes to actually designing and writing the Forth, it
    is honestly a basic Forth beginner.

    Terry's conclusion, stated plainly: the agent builds the tooling and answers the design questions, but the human does all the Forth design rCo including the
    coding. For now, Terry does Forth bench development alone. No more pair programming in embedded Forth. Not a failure rCo an honest division of labour,
    found the hard way, and it works.

    This may change as training data grows, or if the C ecosystem shifts. But for now: the tools are there, the design is human, and that's the honest state of AI and Forth on a real bench.

    (About the teller: Terry Porter is a 72-year-old electronics technician with 50 years of soldering and circuits, Forth since the 1990s. He dictates his notes and an AI helps him write them up clearly rCo but the bench work itself,
    the registers, the LEDs, the clocks, the measurements, is his, done live.)

    Produced with the help of AI without which this video would not have been possible


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Terry Porter@techman001@eternal-september.org to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 20:37:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 2026-09-01, Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
    Well, 40 minutes, often watching the very same image for over five
    minutes with AI voices blabbering away. I mean: really?

    It seems you only had a quick look at the Video summary, because you don't
    seem aware that my video was about **embedded Forth** ?

    It's not about AI and Forth on a PC, which is what you do. It's not about software.

    They're totally seperate disciplines. Hardware guys don't program and programmers don't do hardware. Why ? no one lives long enough to master
    both disciplines. Chuck invented Forth to do hardware at Kit Peak.

    He went on to design the Novix CPU and then the GA144. Chuck absolutely
    does hardware and software. Chuck is a Unicorn.

    I guarantee that AI knows more about hardware than you do, and more
    about software than I do.

    <snip>
    Grok has been the only one so far who wrote a flawless word. Now --
    that's child's play. Others have confirmed as well that AI and Forth are
    not the best couple to do code generation. So, I guess I'm not the only
    one having that experience.

    I have to disgree with you here, because in my opinion Forth and AI would be ideal partners in the hardware area, but if only AI had the Forth training data, which it doesn't.




    --
    Creator and maintainer of "The Unauthorised Mecrisp-Stellaris UserDoc (2014)" --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hans Bezemer@the.beez.speaks@gmail.com to comp.lang.forth on Tue Sep 1 23:15:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 01-09-2026 22:37, Terry Porter wrote:
    I have to disgree with you here, because in my opinion Forth and AI would be ideal partners in the hardware area, but if only AI had the Forth training data, which it doesn't.
    What I've heard -- of people using Forth as an AI test bed -- it's the serialization of the data that's fundamentally different from other
    languages than Forth. It's just a complication they can't do above a
    certain level (that's why the number "3" pops up all the time).

    And unless you provide proof for that "training" statement, the rule
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

    Because we agree: it can't be done now.

    Hans Bezemer

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  • From albert@albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl to comp.lang.forth on Wed Sep 2 10:53:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    In article <11770gu$20v17$1@dont-email.me>,
    Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
    Well, 40 minutes, often watching the very same image for over five
    minutes with AI voices blabbering away. I mean: really?

    But I can tell you what's the limiting factor to AI and Forth. When
    there are more than three values to handle, things get tricky -- and AI >generation becomes more prone to error.

    BTW, I've gained that number from theoretical analysis and observing the
    AI countless times. I gave the AI a simple mission: write me a fast
    integer square root routine. Gemini managed it -- but I had to fix
    several errors.

    It is a miracle that Language Model should work at all for these
    tasks. Advanced results (e.g. progress in the Riemann hypotheses)
    were obtained in a similar fashion as a professor guiding his
    Phd Students. Real thinking involves building a mental model
    of the problem, this is closer to that.

    Groetjes Albert
    --
    The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
    The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
    over 80 years, like Western Europe.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Buzz McCool@buzz_mccool@yahoo.com to comp.lang.forth on Wed Sep 2 08:42:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 9/1/2026 1:37 PM, Terry Porter wrote:
    ... Hardware guys don't program and programmers don't do hardware.
    Why ? no one lives long enough to master both disciplines.

    Are we supposed to take the bait, or is this just AI attempting to
    sow discord?

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  • From Terry Porter@techman001@eternal-september.org to comp.lang.forth on Wed Sep 2 20:21:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 2026-09-02, Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 9/1/2026 1:37 PM, Terry Porter wrote:
    ... Hardware guys don't program and programmers don't do hardware.
    Why ? no one lives long enough to master both disciplines.

    Are we supposed to take the bait, or is this just AI attempting to
    sow discord?


    plonk
    --
    --
    Creator and maintainer of "The Unauthorised Mecrisp-Stellaris UserDoc (2014)" --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Buzz McCool@buzz_mccool@yahoo.com to comp.lang.forth on Wed Sep 2 16:11:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

    On 9/2/2026 1:21 PM, Terry Porter wrote:

    plonk

    Advice taken
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