# Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
There's an increasing chasm dividing the modern web. On one side, the commercial, monopolies-riddled, media-adored web. A web which has
only one objective: making us click. It measures clicks, optimises
clicks, generates clicks. It gathers as much information as it could
about us and spams every second of our life with ads, beep,
notifications, vibrations, blinking LEDs, background music and
fluorescent titles.
A web which boils down to Idiocracy in a Blade Runner landscape, a
complete cyberpunk dystopia.
Then there's the tech-savvy web. People who install adblockers or
alternative browsers. People who try alternative networks such as
Mastodon or, God forbid, Gemini. People who poke fun at the modern
web by building true HTML and JavaScript-less pages.
Between those two extremes, the gap is widening. You have to choose
your camp. When browsing on the "normal web", it is increasingly
required to disable at least part of your antifeatures-blockers to
access content.
Most of the time, I don't bother anymore. The link I clicked doesn't
open or is wrangled? Yep, I'm probably blocking some important
third-party JavaScript. No, I don't care. I've too much to read on a
day anyway. More time for something else. I'm currently using
kagi.com as my main search engine on the web. And kagi.com comes with
a nice feature, a "non-commercial lens" (which is somewhat ironic
given the fact that Kagi is, itself, a commercial search engine). It
means it will try to deprioritize highly commercial contents. I can
also deprioritize manually some domains. Like facebook.com or
linkedin.com. If you post there, I'm less likely to read you. I've
not even talked about the few times I use marginalia.nu.
Something strange is happening: it's not only a part of the web which
is disappearing for me. As I'm blocking completely google analytics,
every Facebook domain and any analytics I can, I'm also disappearing
for them. I don't see them and they don't see me!
Think about it! That whole "MBA, designers and marketers web" is now optimised thanks to analytics describing people who don't block
analytics (and bots pretending to be those people). Each day, I feel
more disconnected from that part of the web.
When really needed, dealing with those websites is so nerve breaking
that I often resort to... a phone call or a simple email. I signed my
mobile phone contract by exchanging emails with a real person because
the signup was not working. I phone to book hotels when it is not straightforward to do it in the web interface or if creating an
account is required. I hate talking on the phone but it saves me a
lot of time and stress. I also walk or cycle to stores instead of
ordering online. Which allows me to get advice and to exchange
defective items without dealing with the post office.
Despite breaking up with what seems to be "The Web", I've never
received so many emails commenting my blog posts. I rarely had as
many interesting online conversations as I have on Mastodon. I've
tens of really insightful contents to read every day in my RSS feeds,
on Gemini, on Hacker News, on Mastodon. And, incredibly, a lot of
them are on very minimalists and usable blogs. The funny thing is
that when non-tech users see my blog or those I'm reading, they
spontaneously tell me how beautiful and usable they are. It's a bit
like all those layers of JavaScript and flashy css have been used
against usability, against them. Against us. It's a bit like real
users never cared about "cool designs" and only wanted something
simple.
It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can't stay in
the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to
run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies.
You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top
of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML.
Maybe the web is not dying. Maybe the web is only splitting itself in
two.
You know that famous "dark web" that journalists crave to write
about? (at my request, one journalist once told me what "dark web"
meant to him and it was "websites not easily accessible through a
Google search".) Well, sometimes I feel like I'm part of that "dark
web". Not to buy drugs or hire hitmen. No! It's only to have a place
where I can have discussions without being spied and interrupted by
ads.
But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
with them.
But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
simple web. Welcome back aboard!
From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:Interesting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in
# Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
There's an increasing chasm dividing the modern web. On one side,
the
commercial, monopolies-riddled, media-adored web. A web which has
only one objective: making us click. It measures clicks, optimises
clicks, generates clicks. It gathers as much information as it could
about us and spams every second of our life with ads, beep,
notifications, vibrations, blinking LEDs, background music and
fluorescent titles.
A web which boils down to Idiocracy in a Blade Runner landscape, a
complete cyberpunk dystopia.
Then there's the tech-savvy web. People who install adblockers or
alternative browsers. People who try alternative networks such as
Mastodon or, God forbid, Gemini. People who poke fun at the modern
web by building true HTML and JavaScript-less pages.
Between those two extremes, the gap is widening. You have to choose
your camp. When browsing on the "normal web", it is increasingly
required to disable at least part of your antifeatures-blockers to
access content.
Most of the time, I don't bother anymore. The link I clicked doesn't
open or is wrangled? Yep, I'm probably blocking some important
third-party JavaScript. No, I don't care. I've too much to read on a
day anyway. More time for something else. I'm currently using
kagi.com as my main search engine on the web. And kagi.com comes with
a nice feature, a "non-commercial lens" (which is somewhat ironic
given the fact that Kagi is, itself, a commercial search engine). It
means it will try to deprioritize highly commercial contents. I can
also deprioritize manually some domains. Like facebook.com or
linkedin.com. If you post there, I'm less likely to read you. I've
not even talked about the few times I use marginalia.nu.
Something strange is happening: it's not only a part of the web
which
is disappearing for me. As I'm blocking completely google analytics,
every Facebook domain and any analytics I can, I'm also disappearing
for them. I don't see them and they don't see me!
Think about it! That whole "MBA, designers and marketers web" is now
optimised thanks to analytics describing people who don't block
analytics (and bots pretending to be those people). Each day, I feel
more disconnected from that part of the web.
When really needed, dealing with those websites is so nerve breaking
that I often resort to... a phone call or a simple email. I signed my
mobile phone contract by exchanging emails with a real person because
the signup was not working. I phone to book hotels when it is not
straightforward to do it in the web interface or if creating an
account is required. I hate talking on the phone but it saves me a
lot of time and stress. I also walk or cycle to stores instead of
ordering online. Which allows me to get advice and to exchange
defective items without dealing with the post office.
Despite breaking up with what seems to be "The Web", I've never
received so many emails commenting my blog posts. I rarely had as
many interesting online conversations as I have on Mastodon. I've
tens of really insightful contents to read every day in my RSS feeds,
on Gemini, on Hacker News, on Mastodon. And, incredibly, a lot of
them are on very minimalists and usable blogs. The funny thing is
that when non-tech users see my blog or those I'm reading, they
spontaneously tell me how beautiful and usable they are. It's a bit
like all those layers of JavaScript and flashy css have been used
against usability, against them. Against us. It's a bit like real
users never cared about "cool designs" and only wanted something
simple.
It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can't stay in
the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to
run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies.
You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top
of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML.
Maybe the web is not dying. Maybe the web is only splitting itself
in
two.
You know that famous "dark web" that journalists crave to write
about? (at my request, one journalist once told me what "dark web"
meant to him and it was "websites not easily accessible through a
Google search".) Well, sometimes I feel like I'm part of that "dark
web". Not to buy drugs or hire hitmen. No! It's only to have a place
where I can have discussions without being spied and interrupted by
ads.
But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
with them.
But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
simple web. Welcome back aboard!
From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original
thread in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. OriginalInteresting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in moderation. This is not a black-and-white issue.
thread in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
Interesting. My take on the modern web is like sugar; it's fine in moderation. This is not a black-and-white issue.
That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
due to my not having one.
D:
That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
due to my not having one.
Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
# Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
with them.
But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
simple web. Welcome back aboard!
From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original thread
in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
My own philosophy is to abandon the web, wherever practical to
do so. Where I do have to interact with it (banking, shopping,
bookings) I try to get it done and then close the browser. If
I should visit a link that someone posts then I'll use lynx, if
the site requires javascript then I just close it in defiance.
I have also, in the past year, returned to Usenet and have
been trying to encourage others to do so too.
In comp.infosystems.gopher immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
On 12/22/23 18:47, Ben Collver wrote:
# Splitting the Web by Ploum on 2023-08-01
But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider.
It's not me. It's people living for and by advertising who are the
outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch,
including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don't want them
in my life anymore. Are we splitting from those
click-conversion-funnel-obsessed weirdos? Good riddance! Have fun
with them.
But if you want to jump ship, now is the time to get back to the
simple web. Welcome back aboard!
From: <https://ploum.net/2023-08-01-splitting-the-web.html>
Cross-posting to specific communities it would interest. Original thread
in comp.misc. (Is this against Usenet etiquette?)
Personally I don't see that it is possible to split the web, the wholeI dropped LinkedIn a few years ago. As a web dev, not being on LinkedIn
idea behind it is that you can seemlessly navigate between sites, so even with the best efforts and intentions, you don't really know what kind of
site that next link click will take you to.
The problem is that the technology of the modern web facilitates all of
the problems listed above. Older technologies, like gopher and usenet,
due to their limited nature are unable to be harmful to their users in
the same way.
Add blockers are in a constant arms race with the add marketers, like
youtube is punishing people who are trying to block their adverts
currently. Why fight it?
My own philosophy is to abandon the web, wherever practical to do so.
Where I do have to interact with it (banking, shopping, bookings) I try
to get it done and then close the browser. If I should visit a link that someone posts then I'll use lynx, if the site requires javascript then I
just close it in defiance.
I make heavy use of RSS for web based information, news and sites that
I'm interested in. Thankfully even if they don't advertise the fact
they often have RSS feeds, the links are hidden in the page if you
search the source. I don't have any social media accounts, unless you
count a linkedin profile page. I never post anything on the web and
don't have a personal website. I have also, in the past year, returned
to Usenet and have been trying to encourage others to do so too. Google
is finally releasing its grip, which hopefully means that the influx of
spam from the web will soon end: https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/18/google_ends_usenet_links/
For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,Don't forget BBSes! Some of them are pretty active.
where communities can exist and content is created because people want
to share some idea or interest. The technology doesn't lend itself to
abusing its users for financial gain and that is a wonderful thing.
The web is nolonger a community space, it is a coroporate miningMerry Christmas as well!
operation and it is people that are being mined.
Merry Christmas!
Personally I don't see that it is possible to split the web, the whole
idea behind it is that you can seemlessly navigate between sites, so even with the best efforts and intentions, you don't really know what kind of
site that next link click will take you to.
That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
due to my not having one.
Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
Futhermore, I can no longer use many internet shops and do
other things on the web wihout a phone becase of a mandatory
2FA or the abandonment of e-mail in favour of proprietary
messengers and SMS for notifications and communication in
general. Some shops have you registed in a social network
(VK) in order to become their client!
In fact, I hate the so-called loyaty programs, because they
are about anything /but/ loyaty, and make some clients pay
unreasonable high prices in order than other ones may pay
lower prices, whereas the actual cost or servising a client
does not depend on whether he participates in the so-called
loyalty program.
And what nasty a word choice! Loyalty is unselfish
faithfulness and commitment at the sacrifice of one's own
interests and well-being. Getting a discount is the
opposite.
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:
D:
That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
due to my not having one.
Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang" (compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.
Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of
any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
else.
My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)
For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
where communities can exist and content is created because people want
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Helmut Richter wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:
D:
That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
due to my not having one.
Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang" (compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.
Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
else.
Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
something similar in my home country.
A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?
Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
garbage.
Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
conversations?
D <nospam@example.net> writes:
My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)I use the Stallman solution: No cash, no sale!
Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
something similar in my home country.
Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
Digitalcourage (digitalcourage.de)
Both are decsribed in the German as well as in the English Wikipedia. CCC focuses more on software techniques aka hacking (in the positive sense), Digitalcourage on the impact on society and what non-hackers can or should do, but their interest overlaps and the two work together.
A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?
Well, as a long term user of usenet, I have the converse problem:
If I have any question (one that cannot be answered by looking up some information but one that could require a direct answer) on any topic, how
do I find a good quality blog or whatever, if not in usenet?
I do not mean to say that all of usenet is high quality, but there is at least a more or less unique point where to start looking for something.
The WWW is too world-wide, and Google's preferences need not be mine.
With the amount of spam on some of the groups I think looking at them by
the quantity of posts may throw you a curve ball...
The other thing is that some groups may appear dead but they're just
waiting for someone to restart the conversation. People will still be subscribed to them in my experience...
On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, IanJ wrote:
For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
where communities can exist and content is created because people want
A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
garbage.
Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
conversations?
Best regards,
Daniel
There's a recent thread titled "Which groups are active?" over on alt.usenet.newbies that might have some good leads.
Hopefully one upside of Google leaving Usenet will be that there'll be
less spam, and the number of messages in a group will become a better reflection of how active the group really is.
Helmut Richter wrote:
Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
It's the time of year they are releasing interesting videos from their latest conference ... the polish trains one is good!
unfortunately many seem to not have English versions this time ...
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